Originally posted by xmarksthespotBecause they have to live in a world where abortion is an everyday occurence. I know it sounds silly, but that's the attitude of mnay of these people. It goes against their beliefs as prolifers. Mind you, these are the extreme prolifers, not a person like me who doesn't take it that seriously, but still holds the same general opinion.
Indulge me.Tell me how (other) women having the freedom to decide whether or not they will carry a pregnancy to term in their body, is currently impacting on the personal beliefs, personal behaviour, personal freedom and autonomy of someone who opposes abortion?
Tell me how (other) women having this autonomous decision to have or not have an abortion amounts to imposing a belief upon someone who continues to maintain a subjective belief that abortion is wrong regardless, and also feel free to elaborate on what exactly that imposed belief with regard to abortion, is.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Because they have to live in a world where abortion is an everyday occurence. I know it sounds silly, but that's the attitude of mnay of these people. It goes against their beliefs as prolifers. Mind you, these are the extreme prolifers, not a person like me who doesn't take it that seriously, but still holds the same general opinion.
Going against their beliefs is not in any way the same as restricting their physical options. Many of us encounter things that are against our beliefs every day, it's called tolerance, most of us can do just that tolerate it.
Originally posted by chillmeistergenOur beliefs define who we are. Change ones beliefs, or violate them , and the person changes and is violated.
Going against their beliefs is not in any way the same as restricting their physical options. Many of us encounter things that are against our beliefs every day, it's called tolerance, most of us can do just that tolerate it.
Originally posted by Rogue JediThat is not an imposition of belief.
Because they have to live in a world where abortion is an everyday occurence.
Another person's undergoing an abortion is not an imposition on their beliefs, autonomy or behaviour. No one is forcing them to undergo the procedure, no one is forcing them to condone it.
There is no impact on their freedom to maintain there personal beliefs, nor is there any impact on their autonomy, they are not compelled to condone or undergo the procedure. As a consequence of maintaining their belief they may dislike others' behaviour, that does not mean that beliefs are being imposed on them. They can still revile it all they like.
A prochoice vote does not imply any particular subjective belief on the issue of abortion, all it does is allow for an individual holding their own subjective belief on the issue of abortion to have access to the option.
Originally posted by Rogue JediThe fact that others are free to undergo a procedure that "goes against their beliefs" does not mean that others beliefs are being imposed on them and their behaviour or autonomy.
I know it sounds silly, but that's the attitude of mnay of these people. It goes against their beliefs as prolifers.
Their beliefs only apply to themselves, being judgemental of others' behaviour and disagreeing with others' behaviour, does not mean any beliefs are being imposed upon their personal autonomy.
An anti-abortion vote attempts to apply an individual's subjective belief that abortion is wrong to the collective. It is an attempt to impose beliefs on others.
Originally posted by Rogue JediUtter bullshit. No one has changed their beliefs. They are free to maintain them. One's beliefs only apply to oneself, you cannot say that because other people do not hold your beliefs, exercise their own autonomy and undergo a procedure you disagree with, they've imposed on your beliefs. You cannot apply your beliefs to the behaviour of others, and in doing so would be forcing them on others, which of course you disdain.
Our beliefs define who we are. Change ones beliefs, or violate them , and the person changes and is violated.
Doing something that goes against another person's beliefs, does not impose your beliefs on them. Applying your beliefs to others' behaviour, under penalty of prosecution, however does amount to imposing beliefs.
Are you just going to continue to waffle, because you refuse to accept that by voting to ban abortion you'd be imposing your individual personal beliefs on the collective.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Yes, I am afraid it does. You seem to have tunnel vision, focusing only on what you believe in, blinded to others and their way of thinking. You dismiss anyone who doesn't share your beliefs as idiots.
No, it actually doesn't. I don't think being pro-life is idiotic, I think the way some people, including you it would see, apply and interpret that belief, is idiotic.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Them? Well, they are free to protest all they want against gay and interracial marriage. nothing will ever be done about it.
And why won't it?
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
You don't care what impact it has on them because you could care less about them. They do not share your beliefs, so they are expendable.
No, do not tell me why I say things. I do not care about what "impact" it has because it has no impact besides the one I mentioned.
You wanna know the funny part?
They have to live in a world where people disagree with their personal beliefs and THEY are trying to ban things because of it, and yet, you defend THEM. However, you sit there and say "You see anyone who doesn't share your beliefs as idiotic, expendable." as if this is a bad thing, which isn't what I'm doing. Anti-abortionists who would BAN it, are doing what YOU accuse ME of, and yet, you defend them.
You have no idea what you're on about, you're a hypocrite.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
It is a good example of how we evolve as humans, you are just refusing to acknowledge it.
Acknowledge what? Your bs examples of how people live life? So what? You say that it's wrong to act as if anyone who doesn't share your beliefs is wrong by default, and how I do it all the time, yet people who would ban abortion are doing this to a degree far worse than I would ever dream, I OPPOSE that, and YOU defend THEM.
Abortion existing does not actually, physically, literally impact their life. They are just pissed that things are occuring that they disagree with and want to stop it happening cos they disagree. You seem to pin that line of thinking on me, tell me it's wrong, but defend it when it's others.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
For the moment, my guns are secure in their holsters. Things change. We change. Shit happens.
You can't debate for shit, you're getting destroyed and you have no argument. You fire blanks in every single debate, so keep your guns wherever you want. You'll never fire them.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Our beliefs define who we are. Change ones beliefs, or violate them , and the person changes and is violated.
Who is changing beliefs? Pro-lifers wouldn't be forced to stop being pro-life if abortion wasn't made illegal. It's not illegal now, and pro-lifers still exist.
You are free to be anti-abortion, even still. Your rights go only that far, you only have the right to establish any belief you choose, you do not have a right to violate others.
You are upset because you don't want to be oppressive, but have oppressive beliefs. Sorry, but you can't be both pro-life, for the banning of abortion, and anti-oppression.
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
these are the extreme prolifers, not a person like me who doesn't take it that seriously, but still holds the same general opinion.
Point proven.
You don't even care about what happens, you just say "I'm pro-life." because you feel it's what you should do, because it's a little foetus. You probably couldn't even give a shit, hence why you wouldn't vote, which is even worse.
-AC
Originally posted by ADarksideJedione must consider the embryo/fetus to be a human being in the first place in order to think the way you do.. ermm
And I forgot to add you a sweetheart!Violet it is up to the person to kill a baby yes but I don't see how they can keep on living there lifes knowing that they took away another human being.
Yes I know I am repecting myself just this once to say why I am pro-life.
Anyway got to get to bed.NIght!jm
Originally posted by xmarksthespotIf you read the previous posts, you will see that I have accepted that. Do yourself a favor and read before you type.
Utter bullshit. No one has changed their beliefs. They are free to maintain them. One's beliefs only apply to oneself, you cannot say that because other people do not hold your beliefs, exercise their own autonomy and undergo a procedure you disagree with, they've imposed on your beliefs. You cannot apply your beliefs to the behaviour of others, and in doing so would be forcing them on others, which of course you disdain.Doing something that goes against another person's beliefs, does not impose your beliefs on them. Applying your beliefs to others' behaviour, under penalty of prosecution, however does amount to imposing beliefs.
Are you just going to continue to waffle, because you refuse to accept that by voting to ban abortion you'd be imposing your individual personal beliefs on the collective.
Originally posted by Rogue JediYou have accepted some false notion that any vote would impose beliefs on others, you still espouse this despite multiple pages of multiple people and multiple posts elaborating on why this isn't so. You have not accepted that your vote for an abortion ban would impose beliefs on others, while the converse vote would do no such thing. "Well if I'm oppressive then everyone else is too, because I said so." Still trying have and eat the cake. Do yourself a favor and learn to form a cohesive argument before wasting everyone's time.
If you read the previous posts, you will see that I have accepted that. Do yourself a favor and read before you type.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
RJ just doesn't understand anything until it's explained to him...then still doesn't get it.I actually gave him more credit than being this ignorant. I guess he proved me wrong.
-AC
Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
Think about it. If the prolifers won, then they are affecting the way prochoicers live. They would be forced to live under a law they did not believe in. Their beliefs would be violated.
Are you just in the mood to argue Rogue Jedi?
Originally posted by StyleTimeThere is more to that post than you quoted. Let me ask you this. When people vote in something, what is the purpose? What happened somewhere along the line to warrant a vote?
I am starting to wonder if he actually does understand what most of us are getting at and is just ignoring it due the martyr complex xmarksthespot brought up a bit ago.I mean, he sat here and actually said why banning abortion is oppressive and idiotic.
Are you just in the mood to argue Rogue Jedi?
Originally posted by xmarksthespotThat is not what I am saying. I don't have a "If I'm going down, I am taking you all with me" mentality. There is just a certain way I see things, and I am being ridiculed for it. Am I calling you a murderous bastard because you believe in abortion? No. I accept your line of thinking, and though I do not agree with it, I don't bash you for it. What you are really pissed off about is that despite all your attempts, you have not convinced me. Would you rather have me crumble under the pressure and agree with you, or would you rather me explain why I believe the things I do?
You have accepted some false notion that any vote would impose beliefs on others, you still espouse this despite multiple pages of multiple people and multiple posts elaborating on why this isn't so. You have not accepted that your vote for an abortion ban would impose beliefs on others, while the converse vote would do no such thing. "Well if I'm oppressive then everyone else is too, because I said so." Still trying have and eat the cake. Do yourself a favor and learn to form a cohesive argument before wasting everyone's time.