Abortion

kill v. To terminate life.

mur·der n. The unjust or unwarranted termination life.

Killing is not wrong. In fact, it is often essential to terminate the lives of some things in order to sustain the lives of others. This is true of harvesting crops, butchering livestock, and even terminating a pregnancy when it threatens the health of the mother.

No one is arguing that a fetus is non-living. However, just because cellular life is present, it does not follow from that a fetus is a life. See my previous post on the matter:

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
To determine when life begins, let us consider when life ends. Clinical death is the complete and irreversible cessation of hearbeat and brain activity but it is not the end of the life cycle. Long after clinical death occurs, cells divide and hair and nails continue to grow. Eventhough cellular life is present, the person is clearly not living. This standard is also used to determine when life begins. For if life exists when cellular life is present, then the clinically dead would also be considered alive.

Furthermore, no one is arguing that a fetus is not human. Anything containing human DNA is human. This includes everything from fetuses to fingernail clippings.

Regarding the issue of choice, is it morally incumbent on a woman to accede to a forced pregnancy? Should the government be involved in forcing women to remain pregnant? I refer you to the argument I presented earlier that every pro-life person in this thread has failed to address:

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I propose, then, that we grant that the fetus is a person from the moment of conception. How does the argument go from here? Something like this, I take it. Every person has a right to life. So the fetus has a right to life. No doubt the mother has a right to decide what shall happen in and to her body; everyone would grant that. But surely a person's right to life is stronger and more stringent than the mother's right to decide what happens in and to her body, and so outweighs it. So the fetus may not be killed; an abortion may not be performed.

It sounds plausible. But now let me ask you to imagine this. You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. The director of the hospital now tells you, "Look, we're sorry the Society of Music Lovers did this to you—we would never have permitted it if we had known. But still, they did it, and the violinist now is plugged into you. To unplug you would be to kill him. But never mind, it's only for nine months. By then he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.

Is it morally incumbent on you to accede to this situation? No doubt it would be very nice of you if you did, a great kindness. But do you have to accede to it? What if it were not nine months, but nine years? Or longer still? What if the director of the hospital says, "Tough luck, I agree, but you've now got to stay in bed, with the violinist plugged into you, for the rest of your life. Because remember this. All persons have a right to life, and violinists are persons. Granted you have a right to decide what happens in and to your body, but a person's right to life outweighs your right to decide what happens in and to your body. So you cannot ever be unplugged from him." I imagine you would regard this as outrageous, which suggests that something really is wrong with that plausible-sounding argument I mentioned a moment ago.

If an Alien came down with no grasp of differing emotional value and you killed a life and a human, to them it would be the same. Just two lives. That's all. I recognise the vast difference but FE keeps dodging my point.

-AC

TombRaiderGurl> “all i have to say about this subject is if you have sex and get pregnant and you werent ready for the baby, then thats your fault and your mistake..you have to deal with it.. not have an abortion.”

I have another idea: If you have sex and get pregnant and you are not ready for a baby – have an abortion.
Easy.

FE> I DO read what you write to me, hun. Otherwise I wouldn’t keep repeating myself, being a civilised human being, and accepting that you yell, scream and try whatever mean possible to AVOID answering this:

“Are you saying that it is NOT okay for God to murder babies?”
I do not want your stories, nor your aunts lifes’ tale. I want a ”yes” or a ”no”.

” Touche on the web site lol you found one that used that terminology.” No, dear. I found a dictionary - the Encyclopedia Britannica – not allanswersareinthebible.com.

Yes, life develops through stages. How far back do you WANT to go?
Before sperm and egg there are chemicals and water and energy. If you go back even further it's sunlight.
So what - should we worship the sun as you worship embryos?

And… AGAIN: Let me ask you this: Are you against the Pill?

”I've given tons of reason why I feel it's wrong outside the bible.” No. You’re giving personal stories BASED ON your faith, FE.

And stop being paranoid when you can’t answer my questions. This ”Awwww, you’re after poor little me” is betting tiresome, FE, because you resort to this EVERY TIME I corner you with my questions. How can you claim to find reasons outside the Bible, when your claim for example, that humans are more important than plants CERTAINLY comes from the Bible?

Fire> This has been my position all along. Abortion should be legal. Those who’re against it can choose not to use this option if they have an unwanted pregnancy (according to a friend of mine who lived in the Bible Belt for a while, Christian fundamentalists do anyways).

All> En embryo is a bunch of cells. Evy, I think, pointed out that it’s not autonomous and that is one of the prerequisites for it to be LIFE! So – a human embryo is alive – but it is NOT life – not yet.

"a human embryo is alive – but it is NOT life – not yet."

Don't bother Meg, they won't hear it. I been saying that for ages.

Coincidental how our names are Alpha and Omega. Haha.

-AC

Abortion is ending a life before it starts. No matter how you look at it, that's what it is. The fetus is not yet a baby, so it is not "murdering a baby," but a fetus is just one step before a baby. The fetus is the earliest stage of development in which it still contains all the characteristics of the person it will soon become. Sperm and Eggs are essential in making a life and contain DNA from each parent, but you shouldn't confuse preventing the sperm and egg from making life with terminating an already existing being. Yeah, it's a group of cells. But name one living organism on this planet that isn't either a group of cells, or just one unicellular organism.

It's preventing a life from starting.

-AC

Yes, but it's more than that. The life form has already began to grow, and would continue to grow without an abortion. It's life as an independent organism has not yet begun, but it does already have all of the characteristics of life except for the ability to reproduce. So it is preventing it's life from starting, but the way they prevent it is by terminating an already growing fetus, which is different then just using birth control.

ye it is an already growing foetus. but the point is that its going to come into a world where its not wanted/maybe abused. or the woman who's carrying it is going through more trauma than its worth due to rape etc. if you were a woman who had been raped or was in an abusive relationship would you really want to have a child? not just for that womans own reasons but also for the sake of the child.

You know... everyone brings up the rape scenario because it draws sympathy for the woman and it makes abortion seem more justified. Well I already said that I believe it should be a woman's choice. Not only rape victims, any woman who is pregnant if she gets it soon enough. Why should we form our rules around such a slim minority? People seem to think that abortion is justified because a tiny percentage of women are raped and get pregnant that way.

I will never believe abortion is a good way to go. There are circumstances when it is necessary but the majority of the time it is avoidable. I wish all women would choose not get an abortion, but that's just not the way it is. So since we already have the option, there is no taking it back. I do not believe in stepping backwards when it comes to medical progress. That is basically where I stand.. I don't like abortion but I would never want a law banning it. It has to be the woman's choice.

In the case of the rape victim, I can understand why she wouldn't want to keep the child of her abuser. I would definitely praise her if she decided to keep it, but I would never want to force her to.

"I will never believe abortion is a good way to go. There are circumstances when it is necessary but the majority of the time it is avoidable. I wish all women would choose not get an abortion, but that's just not the way it is."

Yeah but Afro, as much as I think you shouldn't want more people on this wretched planet, I noticed the fact that you realise the reality that abortion is what alot of women WANT, regardless of why and you have accepted that it's here. You aren't speaking as if it's murder or that it should be illegalised. Which is exactly the way anyone who is against abortion should be. I respect if you don't like abortion, I don't understand why (scientifically because it's not doing anything that most christians and anti-abortionists would have you believe) but I respect that you made that choice. What I can't understand is people who hate abortion for such ridiculous reasons and think everyone should suffer for it.

-AC

I'm glad you respect the way I feel and I respect those of you who see no problem in it. Why don't I like abortion? Because even though I am in no way religious, I do have ethics and morals. Not to say that any of you don't. Abortion is a pretty gruesome thing and I think that if it could be avoided it should. That decision is up to the parents of the would-be baby. I don't know about you, but I would much rather live in a foster home until I'm 18 then never live at all.

I don't think the world is all that bad. Maybe if you live in a country like China or India where there is not enough to go around, but not so much in North America or Europe. I think even if you are born to a crack-head, you have potential to have a good life and nobody should deny you that chance just because your parent is 'unfit' to raise a child. But once again those are my beliefs, so I wouldn't expect everyone else to have to conform to them.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese

I will never believe abortion is a good way to go. There are circumstances when it is necessary but the majority of the time it is avoidable. I wish all women would choose not get an abortion, but that's just not the way it is.

Hold on a minute - am I to understand that you're suggesting that it is better for a woman to bring a child into this world with no means of supporting it? Am i to udnerstand that you are suggesting that a child should be born into unloving family who doesnt want it even if that would mean child abuse?

Because thats basically what you're saying.

I think what Afro meant may have been that they would prefer people who get pregnant to have the baby. Just in general.

I dunno. Ask him/her (don't wanna assume you're a guy.)

-AC

Hey I am back.Anyway anything is better then killing the baby.I mean sure you are bring a baby in this world.But is it the baby's fault?No it not so why should the baby pay for it?
Also there is aportion for one thing there are so many people out there who can't even have a baby it is also a very unselfish acted.If you think through that it would be hard for the mom to accept this.
Then what about the abortion part why should that be easier to accept then puting your baby up for aportion?JM

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I think what Afro meant may have been that they would prefer people who get pregnant to have the baby. Just in general.

-AC

This is exactly the issue - you cant make a ''general'' statement about these things. Everyone has a DIFFERENT situation.

Well when it comes to the family not being able to support it, adoption is always an alternative. But yeah, I would say it is better to have a shitty child hood than to never have a chance to live. When my sister was born we were homeless. No lie. I sure as hell am glad that my parent's didn't abort her just because we had fallen on rough times. I am not saying nobody should ever consider abortion an option I said I will never agree it with it. This is excluding situations where an abortion might be needed for serious medical reasons.

As for the child abuse issue.. how do you know that the parent's will be abusive before hand though? In most cases parents who end up to be abusive would've never imagined they'd turn out like that. So how do you determine which parents are going to be abusive to their children? I'm sure there are certain patterns in abusive parent's but surely nothing reliable enough when regarding whether or not to get an abortion.

I'm a guy.

Oh I see, you're a guy. Well since you're a guy i do have something to tell you about an abortion - when women and only women shall determane which males MUST by LAW have vasectomies, then and only then will you or any other male have the right to say which women should have abortions.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
As for the child abuse issue.. how do you know that the parent's will be abusive before hand though?

And how do YOU know they wont? What guarantees that child will not be abused?

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
In most cases parents who end up to be abusive would've never imagined they'd turn out like that. So how do you determine which parents are going to be abusive to their children? I'm sure there are certain patterns in abusive parent's but surely nothing reliable enough when regarding whether or not to get an abortion.

I am so interested as to how you have concluded this?

Children who were abused themselfs have a HIGHER possibility of abusing their children, we dont know who will abuse their children, but for a start a person who doesnt want a child but is MADE to have one, will most probably abuse it more than a parent who wanted one!

No one should be considering an abortion at any time.I know they think it is what is best for the child.But I wonder if it is for the child or for them?It still sounds pretty selfish to me.
Also my mom and dad was thinking of aborting me and my sister because my mom was sixteen at the time and my dad was eighteen but they did not.
and even now I am glad they did it.It is better to live then to die.Anyway I do respect other people's thoughts even if I don't argee with them.
Also I am prolife and maybe with bush's help he can make geting an abortion againt the law.JM

That's an interesting thought, first time I've heard that point. But getting a vasectomy is more the equivalent of you getting your tubes tied then getting an abortion. However I'd like to point out that I have said I am against a law banning abortion, I just don't like it, and I have that right.