Saitama runs the marvel hardcore gauntlet

Originally posted by Smurph
If you scroll back and read the discussion between h1 and DS, h1 and myself, and now h1 and Phil, you'll see that all h1 is doing is selectively misinterpreting rules and scans in order to support his argument that DS Sentry is bullet-catching-speed at best. This allows him to avoid quantifying Saitama's feats because he can just vaguely categorize them as better than the handgun feat.

And to be clear, the only reason "quantifying" matters is because h1 et al pretend that their conclusions are objective.

That said, I agree: DS Sentry is his own beast.

Lol I never claimed (or at least meant) that Sentry can only move the speed of a bullet. I said his best quantifiable feat is the bullet catch. I posted calculations which prove that Sentry has to be many times faster than the bullet. I guess you didn't read that.

For example, a 50 bmg rifle can fire a bullet 4 miles in 7 seconds, assuming it loses no velocity. Yet the bullet catch feat proves that Sentry can cover that same 4 miles in 0.026 seconds.Thats many times faster.

And where did I misinterpret scans?
And assuming I misinterpreted rules, then explain what is leaving the battlefield if the battlefield has no fixed sized. On a flat terrain, horizon to horizon is infinite. Also it doesn't explain how high a character can go without leaving. Please enlightened me here.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's inconclusive at best whether DS Sentry can obtain light speed within 0.5km.
The scan shows Sentry already had built up speed right before he grabbed Thor. How fast was Sentry going right before he grabbed Thor? We don't know.
We can't say for sure how long it took to reach light speed.

Wolverine seems to utter a phrase ("What's that?"😉 when Sentry is hundreds of miles away. That means Sentry covered hundreds of miles in about a split second while already being supersonic. That's not really fast.

Once in space (no drag forces) Sentry's acceleration increases exponentially. It's plausible that he can achieve light speed within a second or so (in space). But in an atmosphere he is supersonic for at least a couple of seconds.

Look at the scan again. Tell me I'm wrong. What am I missing?

I just finished looking at the scan before reading this. You may be correct. However, Saitama isn’t beating this version of the Sentry. OPM is hysterically funny, and has some crazy feats, but he isn’t killing a guy that simply doesn’t die. How does he KO him when he can rip his head apart without feeling it, etc.

Originally posted by carver9
Stops at 12.

So he can defeat a Cosmic Cube being? C’mon man.

Originally posted by h1a8
Lol I never claimed (or at least meant) that Sentry can only move the speed of a bullet. I said his best quantifiable feat is the bullet catch. I posted calculations which prove that Sentry has to be many times faster than the bullet. I guess you didn't read that.

For example, a 50 bmg rifle can fire a bullet 4 miles in 7 seconds, assuming it loses no velocity. Yet the bullet catch feat proves that Sentry can cover that same 4 miles in 0.026 seconds.Thats many times faster.

And where did I misinterpret scans?

You misinterpreted scans here:

Originally posted by h1a8
Wolverine sensing things before any stimulus can reach him is not only impossible but NOT the status quo and therefore is never the case outside that one showing you are referring to. In that case Logan could never be struck by sub sonic attacks (which is not the case).

I still have no idea what the above means exactly, but insisting that Sentry broke the sound barrier, then flew sub sonic long enough for the sonic boom to reach Logan, THEN accelerated to many times faster than light to attack Thor is a brutally weird take.

And as for rules:

Originally posted by h1a8
And assuming I misinterpreted rules, then explain what is leaving the battlefield if the battlefield has no fixed sized. On a flat terrain, horizon to horizon is infinite. Also it doesn't explain how high a character can go without leaving. Please enlightened me here.

I don't need to explain how BFR works, both because I'm not arguing BFR (it's irrelevant) and also because this is a no-BFR match (its irrelevant).

It's also just not my job to make all the rules work for all situations. This is a match with no BFR, no CIS, and a standard (ie featureless, horizon-spanning) battlefield.

With this information you can either adjust your conclusion or reach for a new reason to double down.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's inconclusive at best whether DS Sentry can obtain light speed within 0.5km.
The scan shows Sentry already had built up speed right before he grabbed Thor. How fast was Sentry going right before he grabbed Thor? We don't know.
We can't say for sure how long it took to reach light speed.

Wolverine seems to utter a phrase ("What's that?"😉 when Sentry is hundreds of miles away. That means Sentry covered hundreds of miles in about a split second while already being supersonic. That's not really fast.

Once in space (no drag forces) Sentry's acceleration increases exponentially. It's plausible that he can achieve light speed within a second or so (in space). But in an atmosphere he is supersonic for at least a couple of seconds.

Look at the scan again. Tell me I'm wrong. What am I missing?

You're missing that DS Sentry was under the speed of sound when he grabbed Thor. There were no further sonic booms, apart from the one that reached Logan's ears before Sentry. This is if we use your weird take.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's not impossible to quantify just because you don't know how. Faulty logic. If the scene was to be perceived from a normal human then it is definitely possible to quantify. Just find out how long a single image of an object will last once it instantly leaves from a spot.
One of the scans you posted stated 1/24 of a second which makes some sense because movies can not have framerates less than that without appearing choppy. So is Saitama is operating each image at 1/24 of a second then how fast does he have to be in order to have hundreds of images simultaneously appear?

Refere to my first sentence.

Then quantify it. You're the one who is in love with numbers. How fast was he moving?

Originally posted by h1a8
It's inconclusive at best whether DS Sentry can obtain light speed within 0.5km.
The scan shows Sentry already had built up speed right before he grabbed Thor. How fast was Sentry going right before he grabbed Thor? We don't know.
We can't say for sure how long it took to reach light speed.

Wolverine seems to utter a phrase ("What's that?"😉 when Sentry is hundreds of miles away. That means Sentry covered hundreds of miles in about a split second while already being supersonic. That's not really fast.

Once in space (no drag forces) Sentry's acceleration increases exponentially. It's plausible that he can achieve light speed within a second or so (in space). But in an atmosphere he is supersonic for at least a couple of seconds.

Look at the scan again. Tell me I'm wrong. What am I missing?

So Sentry roughly goes from subsonic to MTFL in what you describe as a split second and your conclusion is "eh still just a bullet catcher"

Originally posted by ODG
Sorry if this sounds like a biting indictment, but if posters just want to have an arbitrary set of standards for Marvel/DC and another arbitrary set of standards for manga, just say it. Blame cultural differences, whatever. But let's stop acting like manga is inherently more sillier than DC/Marvel, or manga never quantifies character feats, or manga uses different rules for retcons.

And if you won't drop the act, whatever.

Just don't insult my intelligence by accusing me of being disingenuous.

So in that spirit, genuinely asking:

Originally posted by Smurph

Pam from The Office says these are the same picture

Thoughts?

Carver said the former would (clearly, in his opinion) be a high end feat for herald/trans tiers. I'm not asking you to defend that stance, but I think the argument is relevant. Like, either manga is comparable or it isn't. And if it is, then I think Pam is right.

Originally posted by Smurph
You would need to look at how long it would take the sound of Sentry making a sonic boom to travel hundreds of miles to reach Logan and assume that Sentry was moving slower than that. Then the sonic boom reaches Logan and in the moment afterwards, Sentry accelerates to many times FTL.

So Sentry roughly goes from subsonic to MTFL in what you describe as a split second and your conclusion is "eh still just a bullet catcher"

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You're missing that DS Sentry was under the speed of sound when he grabbed Thor. There were no further sonic booms, apart from the one that reached Logan's ears before Sentry. This is if we use your weird take.

Then quantify it. You're the one who is in love with numbers. How fast was he moving?

I did my best in quantifying his bullet catche feat and showing that it's consistent to all his other feats (including the many times faster than light one). Basically your acceleration increases exponentially in space vs in an atmosphere. If Sentry can accelerate to cover 4 miles in 0.026 seconds then guess what time it would take him to cover the same distance in space? A really really low number.

That's my best at being objective here

I can give an effort to quantify it but I might be wrong in the science. It's probably best for me to consult with a physicist.

But here's my initial attack. To have 50 images present, from a human's view point, that span say 500feet from each other, Saitama has to travel and stop at 50 different locations before 1/24 of a second expires. That's 50 actions in 1/24 of a second. So 1 action in 0.00083 sec. But the furthest distance between images he has to travel in that time as well. Speed can be calculated from that.

Note: I used 50 images when there was clearly more, and 500ft when clearly it was a larger distance. But as ODG stated, times where given when Saitama was blitzing leaving countless trails of light.

[img]https://external-preview.redd.it/Lo-VKnGnAJq1SATg3O54cFh0_r8ZoYyGOeANNpOb8AQ.jpg?auto=webp&5b94080b[img/]

Are we even certain that the Sentry creates drag? Let’s just say that he was moving at sub sonic speeds right up until he grabs Thor, we then see him in space a panel later , and the next he is in space moving many times the speed of light. He then reaches a destination that is said to be a few light years from where he grabs Thor. Is it possible that he was simply taking it slow in order to successfully abduct Thor? There is no telling how long it took him to reach space from where he grabs Thor. It’s really up to interpretation at that point. What we do know is that he can fly many many times faster than light.

Don't use external preview links from reddit, use the main ones.

And "/" goes before "img".

Originally posted by Stoic
[img]https://external-preview.redd.it/Lo-VKnGnAJq1SATg3O54cFh0_r8ZoYyGOeANNpOb8AQ.jpg?auto=webp&5b94080b[img/]

Are we even certain that the Sentry creates drag? Let’s just say that he was moving at sub sonic speeds right up until he grabs Thor, we then see him in space a panel later , and the next he is in space moving many times the speed of light. He then reaches a destination that is said to be a few light years from where he grabs Thor. Is it possible that he was simply taking it slow in order to successfully abduct Thor? There is no telling how long it took him to reach space from where he grabs Thor. It’s really up to interpretation at that point. What we do know is that he can fly many many times faster than light.

Yes he can fly many times faster than light IN SPACE.
But this thread isn't about travel speed, it's about combat speed.
What good is being able to travel many times faster than light if it takes you too long to reach that speed (relatively speaking) or if you can't react to objects or beings within battle distance traveling at that speed?

The bullet catching feat allows Sentry to reach multiple times the speed of light in a very short amount of time in space. I'm throwing Sentry a bone here but some are not seeing it. The bullet catch proves that Sentry is many times faster than a bullet the first millisecond.

Originally posted by h1a8
There doesn't have to be any sonic booms shown in order for someone to be going supersonic. You know this.
It's not a weird take. I'm not claiming anything for Sentry, others are. They are saying that Sentry obtained light speed or beyond instantly. The scan doesn't show that. When he grabbed Thor he already traveled from hundreds of miles away. So we don't know what speed he was at when he grabbed Thor. Also, but more importantly, we don't know how far DS Sentry traveled with Thor before reaching many times faster than light.
Im just saying it's inconclusive since we can't quantify anything.

I did my best in quantifying his bullet catche feat and showing that it's consistent to all his other feats (including the many times faster than light one). Basically your acceleration increases exponentially in space vs in an atmosphere. If Sentry can accelerate to cover 4 miles in 0.026 seconds then guess what time it would take him to cover the same distance in space? A really really low number.

That's my best at being objective here

I can give an effort to quantify it but I might be wrong in the science. It's probably best for me to consult with a physicist.

But here's my initial attack. To have 50 images present, from a human's view point, that span say 500feet from each other, Saitama has to travel and stop at 50 different locations before 1/24 of a second expires. That's 50 actions in 1/24 of a second. So 1 action in 0.00083 sec. But the furthest distance between images he has to travel in that time as well. Speed can be calculated from that.

Note: I used 50 images when there was clearly more, and 500ft when clearly it was a larger distance. But as ODG stated, times where given when Saitama was blitzing leaving countless trails of light.

Interesting point that I have underlined. Very interesting. Anyway...

Read my post again. I said no FURTHER sonic booms.

He went supersonic. There was a boom. For some reason, the sound of this boom reaches Logan before Sentry - conclusion: Sentry slowed down after creating the initial boom.

Up until he reaches the Avengers, there are no FURTHER sonic booms. So after this initial period of going supersonic (and then, subsequently being outraced by said boom for whatever reason), he never went supersonic again.

Then grabs Thor, and flies off at many times the speed of light (so...around 20x? Many = a lot, so am being conservative).

Now, your bone of contention is that we don't know how long this took. This scan tells us how long:

'While back on the Akkaba world, Rogue was still wishing...." - and we see her still falling. BUT! What distance did she fell? Maybe it was a really far distance?

Not really:

So, in the time it took Sentry to go from subsonic to 20xlightspeed (likely more, less likely less), Rogue had fallen....50meters? That's about 150 feet. So around 3.5 seconds.

20x lightspeed, in 3.5 seconds - you can go calculate the acceleration for that, if you want. Maybe double it? And say she had been falling for 100m? The bridge/ship that said bridge led to doesn't look that high up, but meh, I can be generous. 7 seconds, 20x lightspeed, from subsonic speeds.

You are being quite hypocritical here, for a man supposedly devoted to hard numbers and facts. First you talk about the effects of drag...then you argue that going supersonic doesn't create booms, then you argue comic physics about punching.

What stops me from turning around and saying that drag is not an issue in this comic? Nothing.

Originally posted by h1a8
Correct but Sentry doesn't fight like that. He's not going to circle around to build up speed before striking.

I can see your point - the case for Sentry wanting to bullrush at exactly lightspeed [or above] is thin -- Sentry has grabbed Void by the throat and flew FTL to throw him in the sun, has bullrush grabbed Thor and flew him FTL for light years, has bullrush grabbed the Collective [twice, once in humanoid and the other in energy form] and threw him in space/the sun, has grabbed Carnage and flew him in space before ripping him in half, has divebombed Blue Marvel, has divebombed Asgard, has divebombed Balder, has bullrushed Attuma's head off, has blitzed Morgan Le Fay's head off etc.

But none of the tactics is him specifically bullrushing/divebombing by accelerating to [FT]L speeds before the point of impact, so I can definitely see how absolutely implausible it might seem for him to increase his velocity further before he does so, even in a CIS-less scenario.

So, say, I'm in control of how Sentry fights, and I just take to the air in the first milisecond, build up speed, and then just slam into a theoretical opponent at [FT]L. That would be totally within the capabilities of what I could do, no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Interesting point that I have underlined. Very interesting. Anyway...

Read my post again. I said no FURTHER sonic booms.

He went supersonic. There was a boom. For some reason, the sound of this boom reaches Logan before Sentry - conclusion: Sentry slowed down after creating the initial boom.

Up until he reaches the Avengers, there are no FURTHER sonic booms. So after this initial period of going supersonic (and then, subsequently being outraced by said boom for whatever reason), he never went supersonic again.

Then grabs Thor, and flies off at many times the speed of light (so...around 20x? Many = a lot, so am being conservative).

Now, your bone of contention is that we don't know how long this took. This scan tells us how long:

'While back on the Akkaba world, Rogue was still wishing...." - and we see her still falling. BUT! What distance did she fell? Maybe it was a really far distance?

Not really:

So, in the time it took Sentry to go from subsonic to 20xlightspeed (likely more, less likely less), Rogue had fallen....50meters? That's about 150 feet. So around 3.5 seconds.

20x lightspeed, in 3.5 seconds - you can go calculate the acceleration for that, if you want. Maybe double it? And say she had been falling for 100m? The bridge/ship that said bridge led to doesn't look that high up, but meh, I can be generous. 7 seconds, 20x lightspeed, from subsonic speeds.

You are being quite hypocritical here, for a man supposedly devoted to hard numbers and facts. First you talk about the effects of drag...then you argue that going supersonic doesn't create booms, then you argue comic physics about punching.

What stops me from turning around and saying that drag is not an issue in this comic? Nothing.

Now we are getting somewhere. I don't ignore evidence. I can calculate the time of fall. Whether Sentry started from rest, sub sonic, or slightly supersonic, and went to 20x light speed in a few seconds would all have similar answers. So that doesn't matter at what speed he started at on Thor. I would just have to verify that Rogue fell (from rest) a particular distance in the time it took Sentry to fly Thor light years after grabbing him.

Although this is irrelevant, me and others here (you can read their posts) interpreted the scene as Sentry began super sonic and continue to speed up as he approached Thor (not slow down only to speed up again to FTL why?). Unless you are arguing that Sentry slowed down to match his reflexes? Writer didn't think about drawing a sonic boom for the same reason why writer's forget (or fail to) draw sonic booms when other characters bull rush at super sonic speeds. This isn't Sentry's first bull rush at supersonic speeds without being drawn a sonic boom. There was no sonic boom when he even caught the bullet. I digress.

So basically give me the issue number or kindly walk me through where you believe Rogue fell a particular distance in the time DS Sentry accelerated Thor.

And I completely agree with you on some writers not considering drag when characters travel at high speeds. This is the main reason why you don't see any sonic booms at times. But if he see one then I guess drag is present.

The reason why I don't consider hitting hard in itself implies equally fast punch is that it would not only ho against writers intent at times but create vast contradictions (like Juggs is a grade A speedster).

Originally posted by h1a8
lol no
Sentry was mentioned only faster than light AFTER he been traveling with Thor some distance. He wasn't necessarily faster than light (or even light speed) when he first grabbed Thor.

You don't think Sentry can move his limbs FTL? Like with a FTL punch?

Originally posted by Philosophía
Sure, but let's go with the hypothetical.

I can see your point - the case for Sentry wanting to bullrush at exactly lightspeed [or above] is thin -- Sentry has grabbed Void by the throat and flew FTL to throw him in the sun, has bullrush grabbed Thor and flew him FTL for light years, has bullrush grabbed the Collective [twice, once in humanoid and the other in energy form] and threw him in space/the sun, has grabbed Carnage and flew him in space before ripping him in half, has divebombed Blue Marvel, has divebombed Asgard, has divebombed Balder, has bullrushed Attuma's head off, has blitzed Morgan Le Fay's head off etc.

But none of the tactics is him specifically bullrushing/divebombing by accelerating to [FT]L speeds before the point of impact, so I can definitely see how absolutely implausible it might seem for him to increase his velocity further before he does so, even in a CIS-less scenario.

So, say, I'm in control of how Sentry fights, and I just take to the air in the first milisecond, build up speed, and then just slam into a theoretical opponent at [FT]L. That would be totally within the capabilities of what I could do, no?

I see DS Sentry bull rushing straight to his target at all his might (using his best speed) but not circling around first.

Now the argument b3comes can Sentry achieve lightspeed within 0.5km. Well there is no evidence he can as of yet (I'll calculate DS scenario of the falling Rogue just to be sure).

Originally posted by Classic NES
You don't think Sentry can move his limbs FTL? Like with a FTL punch?

Originally posted by h1a8
Absolutely not. But I do believe he can throw a punch in less than 0.001 of a second. I can attempt to calculate a more accurate time from scaling off his bullet catch feat.

Then that's where the contention is coming from. I don't know much Sentry feats but I always assumed like most flying bricks he can react and move his limbs FTL at the very least.

Saint
Just thought about it, I can actually prove that one can hit something with any speed, no matter how slow, to achieve any force upon impact, provided one criterion is met. This is a real science possibility. So never mind my statement about comic physics.