Originally posted by MrMind
not saying bouncing around jupiter's moon isn't impressive because it isIo has 1,821.3 km radius, so this definitely is a impressive feat but how ftl is it we don't know cause we dont know how many debris he bounced on and in what span of time.
i don't see how that is more impressive than dodging galactus photon blast in close range.
but how is it better than nano second reaction and traveling galaxies blink of an eye
you think gladiator can locate and fly straight to asgard if his reaction speed doesn't correlate to his traveling speed?
saitama's speed needs to be quantified for us to discuss whether he is in the league of gladiator or superman/flash
The key is acceleration and perceptions. Travel speed is not correlated to combat speed. With just human level reactions, you can travel at faster than light speeds in space without in troubles. If you disagree then I can prove it. Just say the word.
The speed arguments continue to go in a circle.
If you want to be dishonest about it, you can say that Saitama is faster than + multiversal level cosmic beings, since they don't leave afterimages.
But in comics you never know what's truly going on behind the scenes. Like in this example:
https://i.imgur.com/LVbWbE3.jpg
We see Beyonder performing one action, while in fact he is performing billions of actions per second across different planes of existence.
So when Gladiator and Hyperion fight and one action gets referred to as happening nanoseconds later – the question becomes what else they did during other nanoseconds. It's illogical to think that only one single action happens within nanoseconds - especially with that action not being different than all the prior actions: other punches.
And with the sheer casualness of catching that punch with one's hand, with no exertion - to then say ah, but can Gladiator do that several times? Seems a bit disingenuous.
On top of that..... Mind was slightly incorrect, he didn't just outrace photons. He was dodging them in combat - Galactus was blasting him, and he was too fast for the blasts to hit him. It wasn't a linear speed race.
Then there's the time DS Sentry accelerated from under the speed of sound, to many times lightspeed.
But all by the by. Note how anal H1 gets over the numbers, how he lovingly calculates everything....then is silent over calculating a speed for afterimages.
@Enzeru: I had already posted examples of how comics depict speed differently - but just because it's depicted differently, doesn't mean there's an actual material difference. You can't infer speeds based on art, which has been my point. Carv and h1 just ignore that, however. Maybe you will have more luck.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
@Enzeru: I had already posted examples of how comics depict speed differently - but just because it's depicted differently, doesn't mean there's an actual material difference. You can't infer speeds based on art, which has been my point. Carv and h1 just ignore that, however. Maybe you will have more luck.
I've read your arguments. To me they make great sense. I hope they make sense to other people as well. That's all we can do in online debates.
I'm not debating to make my opposition reconsider their stance. That's not going to happen due to the backfire effect. I'm trying to provide arguments, which speak for my point of view and then I let other people decide, which side of the story they believe in.
Debating against anime fans like Carver and H1Z1 is always problematic, because they act like a hive mind. I've had it with the Goku being universal discussion a long time ago. They would say that Goku is universal, because his shockwaves with Beerus could have destroyed the universe. And my argument was that it doesn't help Goku in a fight, because the shockwaves get stronger the further away they get from their source. So it's non-nonsensical mystical energy or whatever. Which is perfectly fine. But it doesn't change the fact that someone like Gladiator would be unscathed by whatever is at the center – and would just turn Gokus head into mashed potatoes in close range.
Originally posted by h1a8Not to butt into a discussion that is not mine -- in fact you can ignore this in relation to Saitama [for whom I don't yet have enough information to honestly compare], but treat it as a general question.
Sentry didn't land an attack within battle distance that was faster than light speed. Showing Sentry obtaining a speed AFTER spending time and distance gaining speed is not a fighting speed feat.
How much time will it take Sentry to travel 50ft starting from rest? The average fighting distance mid battle.
There's no invisible adamantium rope tying Sentry to be at most 0.5km at all times from his opponent.
If by the evidence presented we know he can achieve FTL in flight and that he can react and move in milliseconds [handgun feat], what's stopping him if he really wants to deliver a [FT]L attack to just, in the first millisecond, start to simply fly up in the air, achieve [FT]L and then ram into the opponent? Would that not be, after all, a [FT]L attack?
Not to butt into a discussion that is not mine -- in fact you can ignore this in relation to Saitama [for whom I don't yet have enough information to honestly compare], but treat it as a general question.
H1 never reads/watches stuff we discuss here or in MvF --- so don't let that stop you when you're addressing that turd.
Originally posted by Philosophía
Not to butt into a discussion that is not mine -- in fact you can ignore this in relation to Saitama [for whom I don't yet have enough information to honestly compare], but treat it as a general question.There's no invisible adamantium rope tying Sentry to be at most 0.5km at all times from his opponent.
If by the evidence presented we know he can achieve FTL in flight and that he can react and move in milliseconds [handgun feat], what's stopping him if he really wants to deliver a [FT]L attack to just, in the first millisecond, start to simply fly up in the air, achieve [FT]L and then ram into the opponent? Would that not be, after all, a [FT]L attack?
Forum rules state that a character can't leave the battlefield. If they are knocked out of the battlefield then they have a certain amount of time to get back. The battlefield is 0.5km in distance.
I already calculated Sentry's acceleration in an atmosphere.
He can't obtain lightspeed the first millisecond.
He can only cover the first 50ft in 0.02 seconds starting from rest. That's far under light speed. It would take him a longer distance and more time to reach light speed. He didn't reach light speed instantly against Thor. He gradually increased his speed to reach those speeds over time and distance.
I can calculate the time it would take him to cover 0.5km if you like.
Originally posted by Enzeru
The speed arguments continue to go in a circle.If you want to be dishonest about it, you can say that Saitama is faster than + multiversal level cosmic beings, since they don't leave afterimages.
But in comics you never know what's truly going on behind the scenes. Like in this example:
https://i.imgur.com/LVbWbE3.jpg
We see Beyonder performing one action, while in fact he is performing billions of actions per second across different planes of existence.
So when Gladiator and Hyperion fight and one action gets referred to as happening nanoseconds later – the question becomes what else they did during other nanoseconds. It's illogical to think that only one single action happens within nanoseconds - especially with that action not being different than all the prior actions: other punches.
No one is arguing that afterimages is always faster than showings with no afterimages.
Afterimages is only faster when there is no other evidence to how fast the feat with no afterimages is.
For example, a random Hulk punch (no evidence to its speed) is always slower than someone punching multiple times with many afterimages (like Spiderman dancing around the Hulk punching him with afterimages.).
Originally posted by h1a8That's only the starting distance.
Forum rules state that a character can't leave the battlefield. If they are knocked out of the battlefield then they have a certain amount of time to get back. The battlefield is 0.5km in distance.
Unless otherwise specified in the OP, the default battlefield will be a completely flat, featureless, and indestructible plain that stretches from horizon to horizon, with no mountains, forests, cliffs, valleys, rivers, lakes, etc.
Originally posted by h1a8
No one is arguing that afterimages is always faster than showings with no afterimages.
Afterimages is only faster when there is no other evidence to how fast the feat with no afterimages is.For example, a random Hulk punch (no evidence to its speed) is always slower than someone punching multiple times with many afterimages (like Spiderman dancing around the Hulk punching him with afterimages.).
Don't know if I agree with that. What if Superman or Gladiator threw a random punch are gonna clock it as lower than a punch from Batman because the later has After images? Or do you mean in the event of a character with no feats versus one with after images?
Originally posted by Classic NESYup Superman sometimes punches at normal human level speed. This is due to fiction inconsistency.
Don't know if I agree with that. What if Superman or Gladiator threw a random punch are gonna clock it lower than a punch from Batman because the later has After images? Or do you mean in the event of a character with no feats cs after images?
Originally posted by h1a8
Yup Superman sometimes punches at normal human level speed. This is due to fiction inconsistency.
As evidence look all fiction media (movies, cartoons, etc).
So, a non after image punch from Superman is slower than an after image punch from Batman? I definitely don't agree with that.
Originally posted by h1a8No. That is wrong. The battlefield is not 0.5km, the starting distance is 0.5km.
Forum rules state that a character can't leave the battlefield. If they are knocked out of the battlefield then they have a certain amount of time to get back. The battlefield is 0.5km in distance.
[ninja'd by Smurph]
Originally posted by Smurph
That's only the starting distance.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85So I continue to ask for on-panel feats where Gladiator performs/defends an attack like bouncing around Io's debris? But because Gladiator once caught one FTL punch, my question is made in bad faith? Say you ask for feats of how Thor would fight someone like WBH. And I insinuate you're being disingenuous because Thor once supported 1/4th of the sagging Multiversal structure. Who exactly is being disingenuous?
And with the sheer casualness of catching that punch with one's hand, with no exertion - to then say ah, but can Gladiator do that several times? Seems a bit disingenuous.
None of you have even tried quantifying how fast Saitama is. Every time I ask, I'm just confronted with the insistence that "OPM is silly," "there's no hard speed measurements," "time travel was involved so, forget it." KMC posters discuss Lobo's whacky feats but... OPM is plainly too silly to even consider? N1gga please. We have actual time measurements in OPM but... when we have measurements that literally contradict each other in a JLA comic for Flash, well yes, we take those? N1gga please. No memory = retcon for OPM but... Thor's memories of fighting Gorr fading due to the nature of time travel in the aftermath of Godbomb who cares? N1gga please.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Wow. We've never seen someone dodge an energy beam before. Batman never has certainly. God forbid Thor dodges Gladiator's heat vision or slaps it away w/ Mjolnir.
On top of that..... Mind was slightly incorrect, he didn't just outrace photons. He was dodging them in combat - Galactus was blasting him, and he was too fast for the blasts to hit him. It wasn't a linear speed race.
I mean everyone's so bent out of shape over Saitama's speed, it's like they're trying to distract from Saitama's strength, durability and adaptability in a fight. Oops, did I say the quiet part out loud?
Sorry if this sounds like a biting indictment, but if posters just want to have an arbitrary set of standards for Marvel/DC and another arbitrary set of standards for manga, just say it. Blame cultural differences, whatever. But let's stop acting like manga is inherently more sillier than DC/Marvel, or manga never quantifies character feats, or manga uses different rules for retcons.
And if you won't drop the act, whatever.
Just don't insult my intelligence by accusing me of being disingenuous.
Originally posted by Philosophía
No. That is wrong. The battlefield is not 0.5km, the starting distance is 0.5km.[ninja'd by Smurph]
In short, if Sentry would want to deliver a [FT]L bullrush/slam, he can fly around until he builds up speed -- he doesn't need to build up speed only in the limited 0.5 km distance, or in the first milisecond. That is a constraint that is not needed.
Lastly his top speed in space is not the same as his top speed in an atmosphere.
You have drag forces that are proportional to the square of velocity.
In other words, double the speed then you quadruple the force against you.
Guess how much force will be exerted against Sentry once he reaches 100,000m/s?
More than a million tons.
