Originally posted by SmurphExactly. 👆
I disagree. I was giving my opinion on the meaning of the word opinion. Facts are facts, sure, but "opinion" has an incredibly broad definition and includes a personal understanding of a given set of facts.Anyways, the reverse is obviously true - just because you call something an objective assertion doesn't make it so. Feel free to try to objectively prove that opinions cannot be wrong.
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
This is interesting:https://www.polygon.com/23013512/us-manga-sales-chartbeat-feature-tracking-sales-drama
The report’s author, Brian Hibbs, explains: “In 2021, comics thoroughly exploded in a way that almost defies rationality — not only was raw circulation up by nearly 70% (!), more comics material was sold in 2021 than 2018 and 2019 combined (!!) If we compare the 2021 sales to our first BookScan report in 2003, there’s more than a 558% growth in number of copies sold (!!!). If I didn’t see the numbers written in black & white, I’m not sure I’d even believe it.â€
Hibbs notes that 64% of all sales are of books by just 95 people — but he sees that as a good sign. “This is a vast broadening of the talent pool — in 2020 it was only 51 people, who represented 61% of sales,†Hibbs writes. Some of the most popular creators selling comics and manga right now include Dan Pilkey, creator of the Captain Underpants series; My Hero Academia creator Kohei Horikoshi; authors from the Babysitter’s Club graphic novel adaptations; and YouTuber FGTeeV.
“What you can take from this is that only a tiny number of creators drive the majority of the business in comics (and books in general, as far as I can tell); and conversely, this probably means that the numerical majority of comics aren’t actually significantly profitable any given year.†-snip
Like I "postulated", it may just be guys here are not down with the youf.
Have you read the report he's talking about?
This alone is pretty telling:
Depending on your exact definitions of intended audiences, it appears that seventeen of the Top 20 is intended for children or middle readers. Four of the Top 20 are Manga, and if you are looking for a “Marvel / DC-style” comic, you are not even in the top hundred-and-fifty! In fact, the first DC comic to appear is at #164 with the middle reader aimed Teen Titans: Beast Boy (with Teen Titans: Beast Boy Loves Raven coming in at #200, and former best-selling Watchmen not showing up until #250) As for Marvel? Their very first appearance isn’t until (gulp) alllll the way down at #892 with Infinity Gauntlet – this means that Scholastic’s Miles Morales: Shock Waves radically outperforms any published-by-Marvel comic, coming in at #202 (We’ll talk more about this below)
Outside of a few outliers, Marvel and DC aren't the titans they used to be. They're being propped up by movie money. It's easy to be dismissive and say that people aren't "down with the youth", when most people here will agree that Manga is generally better than comics. Which the report supports.
And, the amount of statements saying "2021 is an exception" means the rule is pretty dire in general.
All that said? If you like modern books from any company, please buy them. I know I do. Support the stuff you like, and hopefully we'll get more of it.
Originally posted by -Pr-They are propped up by the movie Industry and that is a circular situation, because the movie industry leads to increased sales of classic stories as anthonlogies and graphic novels. You walk into any large bookshop and check out the Graphic novel section. Now beyond that we have the online access and sales etc... Numbers are going up, the comics have also opened new markets. I was in the Virgin Megastore in Dubai a few weeks back and the comic section was heaving. It sells normal comics as well.
Have you read the report he's talking about?This alone is pretty telling:
Outside of a few outliers, Marvel and DC aren't the titans they used to be. They're being propped up by movie money. It's easy to be dismissive and say that people aren't "down with the youth", when most people here will agree that Manga is generally better than comics. Which the report supports.
And, the amount of statements saying "2021 is an exception" means the rule is pretty dire in general.
All that said? If you like modern books from any company, please buy them. I know I do. Support the stuff you like, and hopefully we'll get more of it.
Originally posted by Smurph
I disagree. I was giving my opinion on the meaning of the word opinion.
A word is simply a label to a concept you're referring to. However, the meaning of the concept is objective. While you can argue that there's ambiguity to how words are used, e.g. "where does the color green end and cyan begin," this is not a matter of opinion, but rather a choice of labels that may be used differently to describe these concepts.
Originally posted by Smurph
Facts are facts, sure, but "opinion" has an incredibly broad definition and includes a personal understanding of a given set of facts.
Originally posted by Smurph
Anyways, the reverse is obviously true - just because you call something an objective assertion doesn't make it so.
Originally posted by Smurph
Feel free to try to objectively prove that opinions cannot be wrong.
X is wrong if and only if ¬X is right.
Opinions are not verifiable, therefore they can't be right.
If ¬X can't be right then X can't be wrong.
Therefore X can't be wrong. □
Originally posted by -Pr-
If the stories are true, they don't really have a choice. Want that limited edition Batman cover? You need to buy 500 copies of x series that nobody ****ing wants.
I just think it cuts both ways -- how are people saying comics are "dying" if they don't have the numbers saying so?
From what information we do have, it seems like they're growing. We even see indie/Image series outperforming popular Marvel/DC titles in some months.
Something is Killing the Children puts up numbers we'd expect to see from Batman at times.
It just seems like some growth must be happening here, although maybe the numbers aren't 100% accurate.
Originally posted by StyleTime👆 Bingo!
That's definitely true in many cases. I doubt we'll ever have completely accurate numbers, especially considering how impossible digital sales are to track.I just think it cuts both ways -- how are people saying comics are "dying" if they don't have the numbers saying so?
From what information we do have, it seems like they're growing. We even see indie/Image series outperforming even popular Marvel/DC titles in some months.
Something is Killing the Children is putting up numbers we'd expect to see from Batman at times.
It just seems like something growth must be happening here, although maybe the numbers aren't 100% accurate.
Originally posted by AstnerYour third premise ("Opinions are not verifiable, therefore they can't be right"😉 is just your conclusion in the contraposition. So your argument becomes "opinions cannot be right therefore they cannot be wrong". Tautological; not an objective proof.
The meaning of words is not a matter of opinion either.A word is simply a label to a concept you're referring to. However, the meaning of the concept is objective. While you can argue that there's ambiguity to how words are used, e.g. "where does the color green end and cyan begin," this is not a matter of opinion, but rather a choice of labels that may be used differently to describe these concepts.
I'm not referring to a colloquial use of the word. Opinions and facts are diametrically opposed. Facts are statements about reality, while opinions aren't.
Yes. Saying "the movie is objectively shit" doesn't make the statement objective either. More generally statements can't categorize themselves, a popular example of which is the Liar's Paradox, which attempts to assign its own truth value.
Proof. Consider opinions X (an opinion) and ¬X (the opposite opinion).
X is wrong if and only if ¬X is right.
Opinions are not verifiable, therefore they can't be right.
If ¬X can't be right then X can't be wrong.
Therefore X can't be wrong. □
In fact, it sounds more like this is merely... your opinion.
Originally posted by SmurphYup, it does, and the point I sarcastically made early, which was lost on Astner I think.
Your third premise ("Opinions are not verifiable, therefore they can't be right"😉 is just your conclusion in the contraposition. So your argument becomes "opinions cannot be right therefore they cannot be wrong". Tautological; not an objective proof.In fact, it sounds more like this is merely... your opinion.
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
They are propped up by the movie Industry and that is a circular situation, because the movie industry leads to increased sales of classic stories as anthonlogies and graphic novels. You walk into any large bookshop and check out the Graphic novel section. Now beyond that we have the online access and sales etc... Numbers are going up, the comics have also opened new markets. I was in the Virgin Megastore in Dubai a few weeks back and the comic section was heaving. It sells normal comics as well.
I don't completely disagree. Just in part.
Originally posted by StyleTime
That's definitely true in many cases. I doubt we'll ever have completely accurate numbers, especially considering how impossible digital sales\subscriptions are to track.I just think it cuts both ways -- how are people saying comics are "dying" if they don't have the numbers saying so?
From what information we do have, it seems like they're growing. We even see indie/Image series outperforming popular Marvel/DC titles in some months.
Something is Killing the Children puts up numbers we'd expect to see from Batman at times.
It just seems like some growth must be happening here, although maybe the numbers aren't 100% accurate.
Oh, I agree with that. I don't think comics are actually "dying" per se. But I do believe there's been a distinct drop in quality in the last decade or so (at the big two at least). And eventually I think that's going to catch up with them.
Hell, even the MCU isn't making the same bank it used to.
Originally posted by Smurph
Your third premise ("Opinions are not verifiable, therefore they can't be right"😉 is just your conclusion in the contraposition.
Originally posted by Smurph
So your argument becomes "opinions cannot be right therefore they cannot be wrong". Tautological; not an objective proof.
All correct a priori statements are tautologies.
Originally posted by Smurph
In fact, it sounds more like this is merely... your opinion.
Originally posted by -Pr-The MCU, is simply trying to put out too much content because it knows a lot of people will watch anyway... att least until they don't so, to do an Astner if I have 2 films costing 200,000,000 make 2 billion or I have 10 films and 20 TV shows costing 1 billion and makink me 5 billion which has made me the most money in total.
I don't completely disagree. Just in part.Oh, I agree with that. I don't think comics are actually "dying" per se. But I do believe there's been a distinct drop in quality in the last decade or so (at the big two at least). And eventually I think that's going to catch up with them.
Hell, even the MCU isn't making the same bank it used to.
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Hi, honey 😍
Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
The MCU, is simply trying to put out too much content because it knows a lot of people will watch anyway... att least until they don't so, to do an Astner if I have 2 films costing 200,000,000 make 2 billion or I have 10 films and 20 TV shows costing 1 billion and makink me 5 billion which has made me the most money in total.
Again, I don't completely disagree. I just think it should also be considered that there's been a distinct drop in quality since Endgame too. Same with comics.
Originally posted by AstnerFacts are verifiable. Ergo, assessments of facts are verifiable.
No, only facts are verifiable. You may disagree with it, but that simply means that you're wrong.
Opinions are expressions of personal views and beliefs. Ergo, an opinion is verifiable if the opinion is just a personal assessment of the facts.
In this case, you have expressed an opinion on the nature of opinions that is observably wrong.
Of course, this does not mean that any given opinion is verifiable. You're conflating a characteristic of some opinions (ie being impossible to verify) with a requirement of all opinions.
Originally posted by AstnerA "proof" that assumes its conclusion as a premise proves nothing. Your failure to distinguish between your assumptions and your conclusion is the reason why you have formed a mistaken opinion about opinions.
An a priori proof is just that, to take an illusive statement, break it down to simpler parts to prove that it is a tautology.All correct a priori statements are tautologies.
Originally posted by AstnerI disagree.
It's not.
Guess that means... we have a difference in opinion.
Originally posted by Smurph
Facts are verifiable. Ergo, assessments of facts are verifiable.
Since your argument supervenes on this faulty premise there's no need to further address it.
Originally posted by Smurph
A "proof" that assumes its conclusion as a premise proves nothing.
Originally posted by Smurph
Your failure to distinguish between your assumptions and your conclusion is the reason why you have formed a mistaken opinion about opinions.
The structure of the argument is simple and should be uncontroversial.
The premises are: (a) every opinion has an counteropinion, (b) for an opinion to be wrong the counteropinion has to be right, and (c) opinions can't be right.
(a) and (b) should be uncontroversial, since these apply to facts as well.
(c) might be a bit tricky, but "only facts can be factual" is a tautology.
Originally posted by Smurph
I disagree.
Originally posted by Smurph
Also, lol, I see that you edited out "You may disagree with it, but that simply means that you're wrong."Looks like a concession to me. 🙂
Originally posted by Smurph
Well, you ended up talking around the argument rather than make it. If you want to avoid dealing with the fault in your premise, we can leave the discussion there.
Originally posted by Smurph
And yet... I'm of the opposite opinion.Funny, that.