Originally posted by abhilegendJust reading the words on the page /shrug
Its their love, not their DNA makeup lol. C'mon dude.Of course it is, that's your whole argument. Smh.
Also I misremembered the quantum field - not Slott's run, but back in SS 127 when he shows Alicia Masters what it's like to perceive everything in quantum terms
Originally posted by SmurphI think it would help see where we agree if we kind of see the different categories that cosmic awareness/senses helps him in, because "he knows everything there is to know at all times" [not you, in general how he is treated] is a non-starting point not a good way to go about it. Arranging it in a makeshift 'potent and feat-based' and 'less potent less feat based' way, in something like:
Yeah, agreed, until we're explicitly told otherwise, all things are possible. Are all things equally likely? Of course not.Given Surfer's ability to instantly know the species around him, their abilities, their chemical makeup, etc, I would suggest that our interpretations are not equally tenuous.
- Tracking and sensing energy signatures (various EM and more) and living beings by their emanations to their location. [with the various limits shown in comics -- from cloaking, to distance, to precision etc.]
- Separating energy signatures and living beings into what they are [i.e. knows if it's a human, or an alien of various species]
- Discerning body compositions. here I think we might disagree, but I have various examples of him being tricked and being unaware. The most popular example one is where he fought Thanos, thought he killed him, but it was just some dude Thanos surgically made to look like him:
There's worse examples than this -- but I digress from the overview. Can we blame/explain such showings away? Sure, if we try. But then..
- Completely understanding body composition; here, I think we're in a territory where we might split more.
I don't think seeing electrons, chemical interactions or dopamine inside the organism is synonymous with understanding its entire functionality, in its various complexity. Anybody with vision powers can observe microscopic [or bigger] organisms, but actually comprehending the entirety of it is different.
- Deconstructing that complete knowledge to reverse engineer and deduce a weakness from a physiology he has never seen, by creating a material that he never knew existed, which doesn't work unless it's from the native Universe and in the middle of the fight [removing the absurd speed advantage that makes it redundant, let's talk theoretical]. I think that sentence speaks for itself, and there's a lot more to say here about kryptonite, but I want to keep it brief.
Do you think we get to the last point in the feat-based argumentation? Because I don't think we get even to the penultimate one.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I kinda need proof that he needs FTL speeds for time stops. So far all we've seen is approaching lightspeed is enough.
And ohhh boy! here’s one instant time stop and that pretty much makes Superman speed nulled - with that Superman loses any fight against Surfer.
So yeah time stop then beat down, there is absolutely no hope of Superman winning any fight against Surfer.
END OF DEBATE RIGHT THERE.
Originally posted by abhilegend
In case, you can't read, here's the enlarged image, you ****ing idiot.Go on, tell us what's written there.
Exactly what does that prove Abhi? That that attack work.
Surfer will always win against any fight with Superman due to his ability to stop time. Superman gets the beating of his life like or not.
Originally posted by Philosophía
You're confusing the source of the effect with the effect itself. If Batman produces a 1kg rock, or Firestorm produces a 1kg rock -- the rock is still 1kg, and if one can lift the rock, it means he can lift 1kg. If Firestorm removes all of the oxygen on Earth, and you don't require oxygen, you survive. If Lucifer removes all of the oxygen on Earth, you can also survive, because the effect is the same. The 1kg doesn't get 1kg-er. Zero oxygen doesn't get Zero-er. Time doesn't get stopper-er, it stops -- and you can either move in it, or you cannot. Silver Surfer cannot do so, as show on panel.You've cropped the Doom scan because you want to remove the context, to troll abhi with hyperbolic silver age randomness that nobody takes seriously. There's a few things that we can discern in the full scan:
Doom talks. He stops mid-sentence in the panel he's talking because Surfer comes at 'time stop' the next panel. Thus -- the very obvious silver age hyperbole that can be substituted with "the board comes very fast".
The aforementioned board -- it's it that travels and transports fast to the destination. It is not only not a time stop speed feat, it's not a feat that is pertinent to the Surfer's own speed sans the board.
Furthermore, as Darksaint repeatedly points out, this is not impressive even for travel speed, although if you want to prove that Surfer's board can go near-lightspeed, I guess that's awesome. Or perhaps you want to show that Surfer's board can access hyperspace by exceeding the speed of light, which shortens distances, and which he has beforehand also used to transport the fantastic four, thus the huge energy behind them as they arrive? Also awesome. But we already knew that the board can travel near-lightspeed in normal space and FTL in hyperspace.
But, when Surfer has to physically perform actions, using the board to cover distances, we can see that even in the most dire of circumstances at his utmost limit, he cannot save Shalla and Mantis both from an explosion inside 1 second:
Pertaining to the Runner, again with the cropped scans -- but it's ok, I posted the full ones before. Runner makes people "like" him [that's what the 'psionic manipulation is] but, as shown in the full scan of the cropped panels you posted, Surfer says that he has no affect on the power cosmic - https://ibb.co/Js7HSKJ
Nevertheless Runner directly overpowers him, significantly outspeeds him in every area of the fight, steals his board and essentially humiliates him with his speed and potency, as Surfer is helpless to defend himself.
Nope it’s not hyperbole, it is not the only time his pulled similar trick.
So yeah Superman gets time stop.
And pertaining to saving mantis he didn’t think that the sphere well explode upon contact therefore maybe didn’t have the speed required for time stop.
It does not affect PC because it is of psionic base attack that’s why I crop it because it is irrelevant. The power is intact but the person applying the usage of that power is not in proper set of mind therefore its use is not at full capacity.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaI think this is an interesting take but I'll need some time to reply to make it a proper discussion.
I think it would help see where we agree if we kind of see the different categories that cosmic awareness/senses helps him in, because "he knows everything there is to know at all times" [not you, in general how he is treated] is a non-starting point not a good way to go about it. Arranging it in a makeshift 'potent and feat-based' and 'less potent less feat based' way, in something like:- Tracking and sensing energy signatures (various EM and more) and living beings by their emanations to their location. [with the various limits shown in comics -- from cloaking, to distance, to precision etc.]
- Separating energy signatures and living beings into what they are [i.e. knows if it's a human, or an alien of various species]
- Discerning body compositions. here I think we might disagree, but I have various examples of him being tricked and being unaware. The most popular example one is where he fought Thanos, thought he killed him, but it was just some dude Thanos surgically made to look like him:
There's worse examples than this -- but I digress from the overview. Can we blame/explain such showings away? Sure, if we try. But then..
- Completely understanding body composition; here, I think we're in a territory where we might split more.
I don't think seeing electrons, chemical interactions or dopamine inside the organism is synonymous with understanding its entire functionality, in its various complexity. Anybody with vision powers can observe microscopic [or bigger] organisms, but actually comprehending the entirety of it is different.
- Deconstructing that complete knowledge to reverse engineer and deduce a weakness from a physiology he has never seen, by creating a material that he never knew existed, which doesn't work unless it's from the native Universe and in the middle of the fight [removing the absurd speed advantage that makes it redundant, let's talk theoretical]. I think that sentence speaks for itself, and there's a lot more to say here about kryptonite, but I want to keep it brief.
Do you think we get to the last point in the feat-based argumentation? Because I don't think we get even to the penultimate one.
My suspicion is that even if we work from the same set of examples we'll still disagree about how forum rules apply here.
Originally posted by Ambient
All of his appearances that deals with time manipulation through speed requires him to break the barriers of time via FTL \/\/\/And ohhh boy! here’s one instant time stop and that pretty much makes Superman speed nulled - with that Superman loses any fight against Surfer.
So yeah time stop then beat down, there is absolutely no hope of Superman winning any fight against Surfer.
END OF DEBATE RIGHT THERE.
Exactly what does that prove Abhi? That that attack work.
Surfer will always win against any fight with Superman due to his ability to stop time. Superman gets the beating of his life like or not.
But time stop does not mean FTL speed.if anything, it just needs less than lightspeed.
So by the time he enacts it, he's been punched in the face, which he has shown plenty of vulnerability to before.
Originally posted by AmbientI know it is a nice analogy, but you also have to actually understand it, before you can fully grasp why you are wrong. If Surfer cannot move within time stop, it doesn't matter if the time stop is created by Aunt May or a machine -- time doesn't get stopp-ier. The same way zero oxygen doesn't get zero oxygen-ier, and if you can survive without oxygen, it doesn't matter whether Firestorm or God himself removed all of the oxygen.
That’s a nice analogy but we’re talking about the manipulation of all time here in the fabric of all reality and in it speed is a product of distance and time, when all movement is stop within it, distance no longer applies therefore speed is non existent. It’s like this, to make ice made of water u need water but remove water u can’t make ice. In Rune/Silver Surfer crossover, surfer froze in time because the equation for him to manipulate time no longer exist which speed.Nope it’s not hyperbole, it is not the only time his pulled similar trick.
So yeah Superman gets time stop.
And pertaining to saving mantis he didn’t think that the sphere well explode upon contact therefore maybe didn’t have the speed required for time stop.
It does not affect PC because it is of psionic base attack that’s why I crop it because it is irrelevant. The power is intact but the person applying the usage of that power is not in proper set of mind therefore its use is not at full capacity.
In fact, even on his board, at his utmost limits of speed, he is not fast enough to move and react to a 1-second expanding explosion, and save both Shalla and Mantis from dying.
Surfer liking Runner due to his aura doesn't change the fact that he was thoroughly outsped and humiliated by somebody who is sub-lightspeed. As I said in the other thread -- Black Adam is a better match-up. Or John Stewart, as I said in this thread. The orders of magnitude here are just not favorable for him to compete.
You just posted, again, cropped scans. You're scattering to form some kind of argument. And I'll just keep catching you, again and again. I've read all of Surfer.
Why do you make me do this? It's a waste of my time and a waste of your credibility.
First of all, as proven by qwerty (and abhi I think? I'd have to go back), not only can Superman move in time suspension, Byrne Superman casually overcomes time suspension, even pre-pubescent kryptonians can overcome it. So that would be the first point.
The second point would be that, the crazy thing here is that you've just made Surfer lose by bringing with the tactic you posted in those scans. It should've clued you in when Surfer said "I just paused time so that we can make peace before out destruction". Because you've just made Surfer impotent.
If you'd have read the issue, you'd realize that Surfer is:
- stuck inside the bubble he created around him to stop the missiles from killing him and the rest
- while inside he not only cannot leave, but he literally cannot do anything but to helplessly teleport beings to negotiate to not kill him or use help from the other people to move the missles
- outside the close range of the time bubble, time works ok
- while inside, he cannot even use the power cosmic for even basic things such as transportation
You essentially turned Surfer into a static, powerless sitting duck for Byrne Superman to rape inside a time bubble.
Awesome, dude.
I think Thanos was banking on Surfers psychology; state of mind, emotion and behaviour psychosis, this was why prior to that incident he was attacking his ethical boundaries ie. poisoning entire species to his servitude to the world devourer so that he would instead succumb to rage rather than calm calculated approach this was why I think CA was not used. it is not an auto function powers, still require to turn it on and clearly in this case it was at off .
Originally posted by SmurphQuite probably. But you're the only one with the extensive Surfer knowledge and impartiality (even though I know you like Cable/Nate and your tourney history!) to discuss this with.
I think this is an interesting take but I'll need some time to reply to make it a proper discussion.My suspicion is that even if we work from the same set of examples we'll still disagree about how forum rules apply here.
Spoiler:
Plus I always love talking to you
Originally posted by Philosophía
I know it is a nice analogy, but you also have to actually understand it, before you can fully grasp why you are wrong. If Surfer cannot move within time stop, it doesn't matter if the time stop is created by Aunt May or a machine -- time doesn't get stopp-ier. The same way zero oxygen doesn't get zero oxygen-ier, and if you can survive without oxygen, it doesn't matter whether Firestorm or God himself removed all of the oxygen.In fact, even on his board, at his utmost limits of speed, he is not fast enough to move and react to a 1-second expanding explosion, and save both Shalla and Mantis from dying.
Surfer liking Runner due to his aura doesn't change the fact that he was thoroughly outsped and humiliated by somebody who is sub-lightspeed. As I said in the other thread -- Black Adam is a better match-up. Or John Stewart, as I said in this thread. The orders of magnitude here are just not favorable for him to compete.
You just posted, again, cropped scans. You're scattering to form some kind of argument. And I'll just keep catching you, again and again. I've read all of Surfer.
Why do you make me do this? It's a waste of my time and a waste of your credibility.
First of all, as proven by qwerty (and abhi I think? I'd have to go back), not only can Superman move in time suspension, Byrne Superman casually overcomes time suspension, even pre-pubescent kryptonians can overcome it. So that would be the first point.
The second point would be that, the crazy thing here is that you've just made Surfer lose by bringing with the tactic you posted in those scans. It should've clued you in when Surfer said "I just paused time so that we can make peace before out destruction". Because you've just made Surfer impotent.
If you'd have read the issue, you'd realize that Surfer is:
- stuck inside the bubble he created around him to stop the missiles from killing him and the rest
- while inside he not only cannot leave, but he literally cannot do anything but to helplessly teleport beings to negotiate to not kill him or use help from the other people to move the missles
- outside the close range of the time bubble, time works ok
- while inside, he cannot even use the power cosmic for even basic things such as transportationYou essentially turned Surfer into a static, powerless sitting duck for Byrne Superman to rape inside a time bubble.
Awesome, dude.
Actually that’s an Uber feat it’s like instant reaction 😱, think about it. The explosion is activated via his touch, he touch the bubble it explode yet his speed allowed to retrieve shalabal, that .1 sec is after the fact and a countdown to the expanding explosion.
Nope you can’t operate norm when your mind is clouded and no my credibility is intact man. I crop so that’s it’s easier to see.
Nope he can’t move thru stop time.
The reason why he said that Phil is because he is greatly weakened by they’re weapon and fighting BRB, Ego, Drax … etc etc
So let’s sum it up.
- Surfer has near instant speed and reaction
- Superman has no answer to time stop
Originally posted by Ambient
All of his appearances that deals with time manipulation through speed requires him to break the barriers of time via FTL \/\/\/And ohhh boy! here’s one instant time stop and that pretty much makes Superman speed nulled - with that Superman loses any fight against Surfer.
So yeah time stop then beat down, there is absolutely no hope of Superman winning any fight against Surfer.
END OF DEBATE RIGHT THERE.
Exactly what does that prove Abhi? That that attack work.
Surfer will always win against any fight with Superman due to his ability to stop time. Superman gets the beating of his life like or not.
Furthermore, Superman can time travel on his own now.
It works by messing up with their mind and as I showed, not even Perpetua's energy can mess up Superman's mind.
Surfer loses as ever.
Originally posted by Ambient
Ohh I understand it fully, however your analogy does not apply to the feat being discussed. You see in order for you to see that, you need to understand the process of how this feat is applied, it’s base is movement and without this it cannot be applied. Surfer being hit by the time gem effect made him unable to activate the process in which the feat is done since he can’t move. Think of it as a similar to a quick draw, first one to draw the gun wins. The time gem activated first and he succumb to the effect.Actually that’s an Uber feat it’s like instant reaction 😱, think about it. The explosion is activated via his touch, he touch the bubble it explode yet his speed allowed to retrieve shalabal, that .1 sec is after the fact and a countdown to the expanding explosion.
Nope you can’t operate norm when your mind is clouded and no my credibility is intact man. I crop so that’s it’s easier to see.
Nope he can’t move thru stop time.
The reason why he said that Phil is because he is greatly weakened by they’re weapon and fighting BRB, Ego, Drax … etc etc
So let’s sum it up.
- Surfer has near instant speed and reaction
- Superman has no answer to time stop
He can move even in a field with no time at all.
You're so desperate lol
Originally posted by Smurph
Just reading the words on the page /shrug
Maybe read it better?
Also I misremembered the quantum field - not Slott's run, but back in SS 127 when he shows Alicia Masters what it's like to perceive everything in quantum terms
You mean this?
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-R4GICSnxXNM/VoTX0zH01cI/AAAAAAAATAk/URrqMZ2-DZs/s1600-Ic42/RCO012.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xvQZIf-w5h0/VoTX1AFt5sI/AAAAAAAATAk/ZFJDCG7Drao/s1600-Ic42/RCO014.jpg
Not sure what this proves if anything.
Originally posted by Ambient
Your scan says so Abhi! “The wall of past present future are being ripped apart.Considering how fast Supes is that’s not even a debate.
By that logic even Byrne Superman travelled in time by speed lol.
