Originally posted by ODG
In the pages where everybody was burning and dying... Hulk and Betty were smiling while clashing? And afterwards they were clashing and people were dying and Hulk and Betty were fine?
I take that as artist's error - for a start, for a lot of those pages, Strange had supposedly stopped time (confirmed by Banner), yet...people are still moving.
I took it as they all died - again, because Strange said everyone was going to die, the Hulk wished for all of them to die, and Banner said that they all would die and get resurrected to fight over and over again.
Arm'Cheddon wished for him to suffer as Arm'Cheddon suffered - which includes dying and burning. Everyone who had a hand in the wish would suffer too - apart from Tyrannus, which is how he had an opening loophole to escape.
At least, I THINK it's Arm'Cheddon - he seems to change colour, lol:
Is that someone else?
Originally posted by h1a8
There is no evidence to suggest that Hulk's strength was amped by magic. Therefore it wasn't.Also in later comics Banner became World breaker as reference.
Outside of it, even when all the Hulks were fighting and cutting loose together, when amped, they didn't do anything.
Him being titled Worldbreaker means nothing. He never did what he did in the HotM storyline, when he was in the Dark Dimension, again, which further bolsters my point.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I take that as artist's error - for a start, for a lot of those pages, Strange had supposedly stopped time (confirmed by Banner), yet...people are still moving.I took it as they all died - again, because Strange said everyone was going to die, the Hulk wished for all of them to die, and Banner said that they all would die and get resurrected to fight over and over again.
Arm'Cheddon wished for him to suffer as Arm'Cheddon suffered - which includes dying and burning. Everyone who had a hand in the wish would suffer too - apart from Tyrannus, which is how he had an opening loophole to escape.
At least, I THINK it's Arm'Cheddon - he seems to change colour, lol:
Is that someone else?
The wish was applicable to the Dark Dimension, because Umar kidnapped the Hulk in the first place and brought him to her home:
Outside of it, even when all the Hulks were fighting and cutting loose together, when amped, they didn't do anything.
Him being titled Worldbreaker means nothing. He never did what he did in the HotM storyline, when he was in the Dark Dimension, again, which further bolsters my point.
I still don't see any evidence that magic amped Hulk's strength. It amped Betty's strength, but not Hulk's.
It means everything. When Hulk achieved the feat the word "WORLD BREAKER" was stated on panel.
When. Later, the same reference was given when Hulk transformed into WBH. Author's intent was that Hulk can reach those levels anytime he wanted. This is called evidence.
Originally posted by h1a8
I still don't see any evidence that magic amped Hulk's strength. It amped Betty's strength, but not Hulk's.It means everything. When Hulk achieved the feat the word "WORLD BREAKER" was stated on panel.
When. Later, the same reference was given when Hulk transformed into WBH. Author's intent was that Hulk can reach those levels anytime he wanted. This is called evidence.
He only could do what he did, because of the wishes. Without the wishes, he didn't break any worlds - even when he was later massively amped. Umar wished him to her dimension, and it backfires by having him destroy her realm.
Where is the evidence that he is capable of doing so, beyond mere titles? Beyond hyperbole?
Even when he WANTED to, and thought he was still in the DD, and had massively amped, insane Hulks with him...no worldbreaking:
Note his words - he thought he could still cut loose and destroy everything (ergo, was NOT holding back). He was gigantic in size (was massively amped - note his size compared to Amadeus - Choi is like his nostril in size):
No destruction. He wasn't melting amped heralds with the mere shockwaves, nothing. Because he was actually (unbeknownst to him) back on Earth, where the original DD-destroying wishes weren't applicable.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He only could do what he did, because of the wishes. Without the wishes, he didn't break any worlds - even when he was later massively amped. Umar wished him to her dimension, and it backfires by having him destroy her realm.Where is the evidence that he is capable of doing so, beyond mere titles? Beyond hyperbole?
Even when he WANTED to, and thought he was still in the DD, and had massively amped, insane Hulks with him...no worldbreaking:
Note his words - he thought he could still cut loose and destroy everything (ergo, was NOT holding back). He was gigantic in size (was massively amped - note his size compared to Amadeus - Choi is like his nostril in size):
No destruction. He wasn't melting amped heralds with the mere shockwaves, nothing. Because he was actually (unbeknownst to him) back on Earth, where the original DD-destroying wishes weren't applicable.
That's not any evidence that magic amped his strength. Hulk let loose because he knew everyone would come back to life. That was his wish (for everyone to come back to life) .
Greg Pak even explained this (WBH achieved the feat due to no longer holding back). The comic explains this as well. It retcons every moment as Hulk holding back until that moment.
Your argument is flawed due to it being grounded in possible inconsistent showings (like Marvell manhandling Drax after Drax destroyed planets and ripped stars). I'm not even convinced that the giant Hulk wasn't holding back (as it would contradict the comic stating that Hulk was always holding back until becoming world breaker)
Originally posted by h1a8
That's not any evidence that magic amped his strength. Hulk let loose because he knew everyone would come back to life. That was his wish (for everyone to come back to life) .Greg Pak even explained this (WBH achieved the feat due to no longer holding back). The comic explains this as well. It retcons every moment as Hulk holding back until that moment.
Your argument is flawed due to it being grounded in possible inconsistent showings (like Marvell manhandling Drax after Drax destroyed planets and ripped stars). I'm not even convinced that the giant Hulk wasn't holding back (as it would contradict the comic stating that Hulk was always holding back until becoming world breaker)
Except he thought he was still in the Dark Dimension.
Betty was also there, and she was equal to his strength (as you note). She was ALSO amped.
Jen and Rick were also there, and they were also amped to the point they were happily (literally - I think they were laughing) trading blows with the aforementioned amped WBH and Betty (so more amped than they were in the DD). Jen and Rick weren't holding back either, as we saw that they were driven insane with power. So that's FOUR massive Hulks, trading blows, on Earth, with nary a scratch.
You argue that Hulk stopped holding back because he Knew everyone would come back to life. Agree.
He was still under this impression, that everyone would come back to life, when he was on Earth. It's explained in the comic.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I'm beginning to wonder if we're looking at the same comic. I'm referring to Incredible Hulks #635. When Betty collided with Hulk the first time, Fin Fang Foom, Amadeus, Dr. Di Cosomo were all being vaporized. Betty and Hulk were unscathed. The rest, not so much.
I take that as artist's error - for a start, for a lot of those pages, Strange had supposedly stopped time (confirmed by Banner), yet...people are still moving.
There's a grand total of 11 panels illustrating the actual time-stop in that issue. I don't see where people are moving during the time stop other than Strange's and Bruce's astral projections.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except he thought he was still in the Dark Dimension.Betty was also there, and she was equal to his strength (as you note). She was ALSO amped.
Jen and Rick were also there, and they were also amped to the point they were happily (literally - I think they were laughing) trading blows with the aforementioned amped WBH and Betty (so more amped than they were in the DD). Jen and Rick weren't holding back either, as we saw that they were driven insane with power. So that's FOUR massive Hulks, trading blows, on Earth, with nary a scratch.
You argue that Hulk stopped holding back because he Knew everyone would come back to life. Agree.
He was still under this impression, that everyone would come back to life, when he was on Earth. It's explained in the comic.
What does any of that have to do with proving that magic amped his strength?
No where does it mention that magic made him stronger. Even Greg Pak in an interview explained the feat (magic had nothing to do with it, but Hulk letting loose fully).
Originally posted by ODG
I'm beginning to wonder if we're looking at the same comic. I'm referring to Incredible Hulks #635. When Betty collided with Hulk the first time, Fin Fang Foom, Amadeus, Dr. Di Cosomo were all being vaporized. Betty and Hulk were unscathed. The rest, not so much.There's a grand total of 11 panels illustrating the actual time-stop in that issue. I don't see where people are moving during the time stop other than Strange's and Bruce's astral projections.
After Strange says 'stop', we see two panels with Hulk and Betty, with her fist and his head in different positions:
Originally posted by h1a8
What does any of that have to do with proving that magic amped his strength?No where does it mention that magic made him stronger. Even Greg Pak in an interview explained the feat (magic had nothing to do with it, but Hulk letting loose fully).
Interviews are inadmissible.
He only caused that much magical collateral damage whilst in the Dark Dimension, outside of it people were fine. He wasn't holding back when he landed back on Earth, nor were the three other amped Hulks holding back. None of them caused the same amount of damage.
WBH's entire feat is down to collateral damage. The shockwaves from his punch etc etc.
Yet, suddenly, we are meant to ignore collateral damage (or, lack of it) despite him being much more powerful, with opponents much more powerful than just Betty on her own?
After the comic spelled out that he wished for a battlefield with no innocents around (i.e the Dark Dimension)?
After the comic spelled out that the Wishing Well backfires on the wishmakers, one of whom included Umar, and this backfiring includes the destruction of her realm?
How much hand holding does one need?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Interviews are inadmissible.He only caused that much magical collateral damage whilst in the Dark Dimension, outside of it people were fine. He wasn't holding back when he landed back on Earth, nor were the three other amped Hulks holding back. None of them caused the same amount of damage.
WBH's entire feat is down to collateral damage. The shockwaves from his punch etc etc.
Yet, suddenly, we are meant to ignore collateral damage (or, lack of it) despite him being much more powerful, with opponents much more powerful than just Betty on her own?
After the comic spelled out that he wished for a battlefield with no innocents around (i.e the Dark Dimension)?
After the comic spelled out that the Wishing Well backfires on the wishmakers, one of whom included Umar, and this backfiring includes the destruction of her realm?
How much hand holding does one need?
The writer's interview is for you and you only.
I'm trying to convince you, not win a debate. The debate is already settled.
If you want to ignore writer's intention in order to try to win a debate then that's your choice. You are only lying to yourself, not us. We all know the truth.
Although I'll argue Hulk was still holding back at those other times you are referring to (Hulk seeing Betty kiss Tyrannus pushed him over the edge into WB mode), I don't need to.
The fact that comic inconsistency exists destroys your entire argument. You have characters destroying planets in one scene and yet struggling to lift hundreds of tons in another scene. This is how fiction rolls. That's why there are low and high showings (which has nothing to do with the difference in effort).
With that said, your argument is based off speculation. There is no actual proof that Hulk's strength was amped by magic.
Lack of collateral damage isn't proof of maximum power.
But existence of collateral damage IS proof to minimum power.
Betty was as powerful as Hulk (because of the wish), who, in turn, was far more powerful than all those beings put together.,
Originally posted by h1a8Wow, h1 owned in this thread, don't think I've ever seen posters owned as badly ever.
The writer's interview is for you and you only.
I'm trying to convince you, not win a debate. The debate is already settled.
If you want to ignore writer's intention in order to try to win a debate then that's your choice. You are only lying to yourself, not us. We all know the truth.With that said, you can twist the argument anyway you like. The fact that comic inconsistency exists destroys your entire argument. You have characters destroying planets in one scene and yet struggling to lift hundreds of tons in another scene. This is how fiction rolls. That's why there are low and high showings (which has nothing to do with the difference in effort). Although I'll argue Hulk was still holding back at those other times you are referring to (Hulk seeing Betty kiss Tyrannus pushed him over the edge into WB mode). All the time he was still holding back before that.
With that said, your argument is based off speculation. There is no actual proof that Hulk's strength was amped by magic.
Lack of collateral damage isn't proof of maximum power.
But existence of collateral damage IS proof to minimum power.Betty was as powerful as Hulk (because of the wish), who, in turn, was far more powerful than all those beings put together.,
Originally posted by h1a8
The writer's interview is for you and you only.
I'm trying to convince you, not win a debate. The debate is already settled.
If you want to ignore writer's intention in order to try to win a debate then that's your choice. You are only lying to yourself, not us. We all know the truth.Although I'll argue Hulk was still holding back at those other times you are referring to (Hulk seeing Betty kiss Tyrannus pushed him over the edge into WB mode), I don't need to.
The fact that comic inconsistency exists destroys your entire argument. You have characters destroying planets in one scene and yet struggling to lift hundreds of tons in another scene. This is how fiction rolls. That's why there are low and high showings (which has nothing to do with the difference in effort).
With that said, your argument is based off speculation. There is no actual proof that Hulk's strength was amped by magic.
Lack of collateral damage isn't proof of maximum power.
But existence of collateral damage IS proof to minimum power.Betty was as powerful as Hulk (because of the wish), who, in turn, was far more powerful than all those beings put together.,
Indeed, comic inconsistency exists.
However, we have two showings here:
1. Where he fights Betty in the DD, and the shockwaves from their hits melt amped beings and the DD.
2. Where he fights Betty, Rick and Jen on Earth, still believes he's in the DD, no mention is made of Betty (his equal) holding back, and Rick and Jen are insane with power. Oh and all four are amped (none of which you acknowledged).
My argument is based purely on what we saw in comics. In the DD, he melted everything with Betty. On Earth, nothing of the sort happened, despite being massively more amped.
Literally by the same author, hell in the same comic.
So why is your collateral damage feat admissible, and the other completely ignored? It's not even like we have a wealth of other times Hulk went WBH and did anything similar.