Originally posted by Galan0071) You can try and push back the same exact question that I had for you onto me. But that just shows how vulnerable your own position is. Maybe you should reread Crisis on Infinite Earths before extending this conversation.
1.) Per the original Monitor: "I am linked with ALL positive matter." What does being linked with(and powered by) "all" positive matter mean to you in the context of COIE?2.) Infinite universes, as stated in the series itself(along with a bunch of other sources.)
3.) Extremely powerful, as pre-crisis Kryptonians tended to be(especially whilst bloodlusted/going all-out.) Anywho, I see what you're getting at here, and no, I don't think that instance really diminishes AM's overall status -- just like I don't think a character losing to SBP necessarily constitutes a "bad" showing for them(no matter who they are)... But that's just my opinion. /shrug
2) Well... if you actually read Crisis on Infinite Earths, that'd be wrong. Do you want to show scans from Crisis on Infinite Earths? I am happy to.
3) So you believe a pre-Crisis Kryptonian can defeat who you consider to be a fully multiversal entity? Just say it. But we both know how you consider the Beyonders' multiversality when a multiple Molecule Man bomb blew up in their faces.
I'll be up-front about this. You best bow out of this conversation. It won't go well for you.
^ Good lord, man. Why can't we just have a reasonable/civil discussion about this without instantly getting hostile? 😕
1.) It was genuine question. I've made it clear what a character who is linked with(and powered by) all positive matter in the multiverse means to me. So I'm legitimately asking: what does it mean to you?
2.) In the story, Alex stated that an infinite number of universes existed secondary to Krona's actions, as have a number of other sources over the years. Though I will say that the series itself did a very poor job of showcasing that most of the time.
3.) Heh. The showing happened. It is what it is. Interpret it however you choose. I'm just saying that I personally do not believe it degrades AM's overall status -- just like I personally do not think that Mxy is some weak feeb simply because GA Prime slapped him around. But again, that is just my opinion. A lot of people disagree, and that's fine.
Originally posted by Galan007Alright. I apologize. Granted, I think that your positions here are flimsy. I do not think that you, as a poster, are a jerk. I am attacking your argument, not you as a person.
^ Good lord, man. Why can't we just have a reasonable/civil discussion about this without instantly getting hostile? 😕1.) It was genuine question. I've made it clear what a character who is linked with(and powered by) all positive matter in the multiverse means to me. So I'm legitimately asking: what does it mean to you?
2.) In the story, Alex stated that an infinite number of universes existed secondary to Krona's actions, as have a number of other sources over the years. Though I will say that the series itself did a very poor job of showcasing that most of the time.
3.) Heh. The showing happened. It is what it is. Interpret it however you choose. I'm just saying that I personally do not believe it degrades AM's overall status -- just like I personally do not think that Mxy is some weak feeb simply because GA Prime slapped him around. But again, that is just my opinion. A lot of people disagree, and that's fine.
1) Yeah, well... when you don't answer my initial question and turn it around on me... I just don't think that flies. I am happy to answer your question so long as you answer my own: did you think that when the Monitor/Anti-Monitor were linked to each universe, they possessed a universal scope power for each universe OR they simply drew power from each universe?
2) Post the scan then from Crisis on Infinite Earths. I shall post my own scans and we can compare.
3) So you don't criticize the Anti-Monitor's multiversality for getting utterly wrecked by Supergirl but you will denigrate the Beyonders' multiversality for getting wrecked by a conglomerated Molecule Man bomb.
I mean... do you really want to keep this conversation going?
No worries!
1.) The intent was not to turn anything around on you. It was a genuine question. Anyway, my interpretation/opinion of Monitor's dialogue is that he was linked with(and powered by) ALL positive matter in the multiverse -- and all positive matter = the multiverse itself. Hence my stance that he was intended to be a multiversal force(at the peak of his power, of course.)
2.) I don't have access to my comics at the moment, but Alex made the "infinite universes" statement in COIE #5, if memory serves. It has also been stated multiple times in other sources over the years.
3.) Like I said: the showing happened. Interpret it how you will. I personally do not believe it degrades AM's overall stock, for the same basic reason why I don't think Mxy's status was shat upon by Prime beating the christ out of him. But obviously we aren't going to agree here, and that's fine.
Originally posted by Galan0071) Yet, I asked the question first. Anyway, I shall assume your position is that every universe imbued the Monitor/Anti-Monitor with universal power. This is a stance that I will readily debate. Let me know when you want to.
No worries!1.) The intent was not to turn anything around on you. It was a genuine question. Anyway, my interpretation/opinion of Monitor's dialogue is that he was linked with(and powered by) ALL positive matter in the multiverse -- and all positive matter = the multiverse itself. Hence my stance that he was intended to be a multiversal force(at the peak of his power, of course.)
2.) I don't have access to my comics at the moment, but Alex made the "infinite universes" statement in COIE #5, if memory serves. It has also been stated multiple times in other sources over the years.
3.) Like I said: the showing happened. Interpret it how you will. I personally do not believe it degrades AM's overall stock, for the same basic reason why I don't think Mxy's status was shat upon by Prime beating the christ out of him. But obviously we aren't going to agree here, and that's fine.
2) As opposed to the half dozen+ times when the Anti-Monitor himself quantified the universes he conquered? I know what scan you're referring to. It pales in comparison to the scans I have to the contrary.
3) I personally don't give a sh1t about SBP. So maybe you're operating under some needless misconception here. Why do you denigrate the Beyonders' multiversality when they got blown up by a conglomerate Molecule Man bomb whilst hand-waving Anti-Monitor's multiversality when he got wrecked by Supergirl?
1.) You asked how I interpret Monitor's power, and that's how I interpret it. I believe Monitor was linked with/powered by "all" positive matter in the multiverse, like he stated. But if you disagree, that's fine.
2.) As mentioned earlier, I fully agree that the source material did a terrible job of showcasing/conveying "infinite universes" most of the time, and did use finite terms quite often... But Alex did make that statement, using information he received directly from Monitor himself. So you're free to ignore his statement(along with all the other statements made about the pre-crisis multiverse's infinitude in various sources since) if you want. Again, we clearly aren't going to agree here, and that's fine.
3.) It is a simple analogy, nothing more. Anyway, I'm not going to go off on some external tangent in this thread, but the Owen Bomb showing isn't the only reason why I've questioned the Beyonders' power over the years.
Originally posted by Galan0071) The prevarication is frustrating. Linked how exactly? I am certain you understand to what point I am bearing down on. Did each universe grant Monitor/Anti-Monitor universal power or did they simply draw power from them?
1.) Again, you asked how I interpret Monitor's power, and that's how I interpret it. I believe Monitor was linked with/powered by "all" positive matter in the multiverse, like he stated. But if you disagree, that's fine.2.) As mentioned earlier, I fully agree that the source material did a terrible job of showcasing/conveying "infinite universes" most of the time, and did use finite terms quite often... But Alex did make that statement, using information he received directly from Monitor himself. So you're free to ignore his statement(along with all the other statements made about the pre-crisis multiverse's infinitude in various sources since) if you want. Again, we clearly aren't going to agree here, and that's fine.
3.) It is a simple analogy, nothing more. Anyway, I'm not going to go off on some external tangent in this thread, but the Owen Bomb showing isn't the only reason why I've questioned the Beyonders' power over the years.
2) Whether the comics did a bad or good job is rather subjective. Just because the actual comics don't support your view doesn't delegitimize the comics themselves. Having said that, you can try to turn it around on me and act like I am being ignorant... but let's face it. We both know that if we bear down on the actual comics themselves, your position is garbage. I am more than happy to post the scans.
3) Let's be clear. You did not make it an analogy. You have argued that Doom killing the Beyonders with a conglomerate Molecule Man bomb denigrated their status as mutiversal. Yet when I point out that Supergirl beat the crap out of Anti-Monitor at his multiversal peak, that is handwaved.
Shall we continue?
1.) Frustrating how? Again, Monitor stated that he is linked with/powered by "all" positive matter in the multiverse. So I personally interpret that to mean peak COIE Monitor was a multiversal force(as his power source was literally the multiverse itself.) I feel like I can't be much more clear here.
2.) The actual comics also have Alex explicitly stating that the multiverse contained infinite universes... But lets throw that out and pretend like he never made such a statement. Are you also prepared to throwaway all of the various sources released since, which outright state that the pre-crisis multiverse was infinite, simply because the characters in the source material would often use finite dialogue?
3.) Indeed I did use it as an analogy. Anyway, I never "handwaved" the Supergirl/AM showing. It happened, and you are free to interpret it however you want. But again: I personally don't think it necessarily degrades AM's power/status/standing, for the same reason I don't think Mxy getting slapped by Prime necessarily degrades his power/status/standing. Clearly you disagree, and you're more than welcome to.
Originally posted by Galan0071) Bruh. Just say it. Do you believe that either the Monitor or Anti-Monitor lost/gained universal power within themselves or not?
1.) Frustrating how? Again, Monitor stated that he is linked with/powered by "all" positive matter in the multiverse. So I personally interpret that to mean peak COIE Monitor was a multiversal force(as his power source was literally the multiverse itself.) I feel like I can't be much more clear here.2.) The actual comics also have Alex explicitly stating that the COIE multiverse contained infinite universes... But lets throw that out and pretend like he never made such a statement. Are you also prepared to throwaway all of the various sources released since, which outright state that the pre-crisis multiverse was infinite, simply because the characters in the source material would often use finite dialogue?
3.) Indeed I did use it as an analogy. Anyway, I never "handwaved" the Supergirl/AM showing. It happened, and you are free to interpret it however you want. But again: I personally don't think it necessarily degrades AM's power/status/standing, for the same reason I don't think Mxy getting slapped by Prime necessarily degrades his power/status/standing. Clearly you disagree, and you're more than welcome to.
2) The actual comics stated several times over that the universes at play were in the thousands. You either want to compare proof via actual scans or you don't. Until you start posting scans, there's really no need for me to do so either... but we both know why. Because for every single scan you post, I can post six or more.
3) Yet you freely denigrate the Beyonders' mulitiversality because they "were destroyed by a blast that was infinitely below multiversal." So was Supergirl well above multiversal when she wrecked the sh1t out of Anti-Monitor at his supposedly multiversal peak? I mean you can keep acting like that this is about SBP but we both know it's about your own hypocritical standards when it comes to true multiversality.
1.) My stance is clear(and has been clear since my very first post, imo.) I believe Monitor was a multiversal force, as "all" positive matter within the multiverse was his literal power source. I really can't be any clearer.
2.) Correct. Finite terminology was often used by the characters in the source material(as I agreed with from the start.) But again, even if we ignore Alex's explicit "infinite universes" statement(also from the source material), are you also prepared to throw out all of the sources released since, which describe the pre-crisis multiverse as infinite?
3.) Heh. You're pushing this Beyonder agenda hard. Like I said, the Owen Bomb showing isn't the only reason why I've questioned the Beyonders' power over the years. Is it *one* of the reasons? Sure. Is it the *only* reason? No. But as mentioned, I'm not going to derail this thread with an off-topic tangent. On topic: if you think AM getting slapped by Supergirl is a poor showing that diminishes his status, that's fine. We're allowed to have different opinions.
Originally posted by Galan0071) No, your stance is not clear. Just say it: (1) each universe under their purview imbued them with a fully universal power. Because my position is that (2) each universe just allowed them to tap into their power to an indeterminate degree. It's (1) or (2). Just say it.
1.) My stance is clear(and has been clear since my very first post, imo.) I believe Monitor was a multiversal force, as "all" positive matter within the multiverse was his literal power source. I really can't be any clearer.2.) Correct. Finite terminology was often used by the characters in the source material(as I agreed with from the start.) But again, even if we ignore Alex's explicit "infinite universes" statement(also from the source material), are you also prepared to throw out all of the sources released since, which describe the pre-crisis multiverse as infinite?
3.) Heh. You're pushing this Beyonder agenda hard. Like I said, the Owen Bomb showing isn't the only reason why I've questioned the Beyonders' power over the years. Is it *one* of the reasons? Sure. Is it the *only* reason? No. But as mentioned, I'm not going to derail this thread with an off-topic tangent. On topic: if you think AM getting slapped by Supergirl is a poor showing that diminishes his status, that's fine. We're allowed to have different opinions.
2) Feel free to post secondhand scans other than those from the actual pages of Crisis on Infinite Earths itself. I'll happily oppose them. This is no different from Mr Master's secondhand scans concerning the IG or Galacticstorm's secondhand scans concerning the Phoenixforce. It's the same self-serving horsesh1t that is easily rebutted from the actual comic storyline we're dealing with.
3) Literally couldn't care less about the Beyonders. You insinuated my posts were about SBP at first. Or Mxy. Now it's about the Beyonders??? Is it that hard to believe I am attacking your arguments and not fictional characters? I'll be inimitably clear: you sh1t on supposedly multiversal characters (e.g. Beyonders) for their low showings (blown up by Doom's Molecule Man bomb) yet at the same time extol supposedly multiversal characters (e.g. COIE Anti-Monitor) despite their low showings (curbstomped by Supergirl).
At first, I expected you to not be so evasive about this hypocrisy. Address the inconsistency or don't. I ain't going nowhere. And you know it.
I agree you are allowed your opinion. As am I. My opinion is that when it comes to COIE Anti-Monitor, you're a hypocrite. It's not much more complicated than that.
Objectively speaking...
The COIE Anti-Monitor has extremely high showings, and extremely low showings. Nothing in between... No middle ground... No real average to balance things out.
And because the source material does not explicitly indicate that the COIE Anti-Monitor who stalemated the Monitor was intended to be more powerful than the true Over-Monitor who helped defeat Perpetua, who's to say what's PIS for them and what's not... Especially when they only appeared in like 6 or 12 issues total..?
I mean, given the evidence at hand, couldn't I just as easily argue that COIE Anti-Monitor being multiversal is the PIS showing? I guess my question is why we would automatically assume the high end stuff is acceptable/valid, and just write the low end stuff off as PIS? In cases where characters have a scant few on-panel appearances, it seems like all of their showing need to count for *something*, imo. /shrug
Again, I'm just trying to be objective here, because the vast discrepancy between their feats makes it really hard gauge the COIE Anti-Monitor with any sort of accuracy.
srug
Originally posted by ODG1.) It... Really is. The pre-crisis multiverse = positive matter. Monitor was linked with/powered by "all" positive matter. Therefore I believe he was a multiversal force, as the multiverse itself(ie. "all" positive matter) was essentially his battery. I don't feel like I'm being difficult/ambiguous at all here..?
1) No, your stance is not clear. Just say it: [b](1) each universe under their purview imbued them with a fully universal power. Because my position is that (2) each universe just allowed them to tap into their power. It's (1) or (2). Just say it.2) Feel free to post secondhand scans other than those from the actual pages of Crisis on Infinite Earths itself. I'll happily oppose them. This is no different from Mr Master's secondhand scans concerning the IG or Galacticstorm's secondhand scans concerning the Phoenixforce. It's the same self-serving horsesh1t that is easily rebutted from the actual comic storyline we're dealing with.
3) Literally couldn't care less about the Beyonders. You insinuated my posts were about SBP at first. Or Mxy. Now it's about the Beyonders??? Is it that hard to believe I am attacking your arguments and not fictional characters? I'll be inimitably clear: you sh1t on supposedly multiversal characters (e.g. Beyonders) for their low showings (blown up by Doom's Molecule Man bomb) yet at the same time extol supposedly multiversal characters (e.g. COIE Anti-Monitor) despite their low showings (curbstomped by Supergirl).
At first, I expected you to not be so evasive about this hypocrisy. Address the inconsistency or don't. I ain't going nowhere. And you know it.
I agree you are allowed your opinion. As am I. My opinion is that when it comes to COIE Anti-Monitor, you're a hypocrite. It's not much more complicated than that. [/B]
2.) Okay. So aside from Alex explicitly stating that the multiverse = infinite universes within the source material, your contention is that none of the other statements made about the pre-crisis multiverse's infinitude(across numerous issues over the years) are applicable here, because other characters in the source material used more finite terminology than Alex? Got it. That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.
3.) Once more: the Owen Bomb showing is simply *one* of the reasons why I have questioned the Beyonders' power. It is not the *only* reason. Anyway, Prime slapped Mxy around. That doesn't degrade how I view Mxy as a character. Same basic principle applies to how I view the Supergirl/AM showing. That's all I'm saying... But if you think this opinion makes me hypocritical or w/e, that's fine.
Originally posted by Galan0071) I appreciate that you've clarified your position. So did the Monitor perform feats that exhibited truly muiltiversal power? Or no?
1.) It... Really is. The pre-crisis multiverse = positive matter. Monitor was linked with/powered by "all" positive matter. Therefore I believe he was a multiversal force, as the multiverse itself(ie. "all" positive matter) was essentially his battery. I don't feel like I'm being difficult/ambiguous at all here..?2.) Okay. So aside from Alex explicitly stating that the multiverse = infinite universes within the source material, your contention is that none of the other statements made about the pre-crisis multiverse's infinitude(across numerous issues over the years) are applicable here, because other characters in the source material used more finite terminology than Alex? Got it. That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.
3.) Once more: the Owen Bomb showing is simply *one* of the reasons why I have questioned the Beyonders' power. It is not the *only* reason. They have some very high-highs, mixed with quite a few questionable lower-end showings(for beings of their touted magnitude, I mean.) That has always been my contention; they're just hard to pinpoint an "average" for them /shrug. Anyway, Prime slapped Mxy around. That doesn't degrade how I view Mxy as a character. Same basic principle applies to how I view the Supergirl/AM showing. Kryptonians can do some wacky/illogical shit when need be(especially those of the pre-crisis variety.) That's all I'm saying... But if you think this opinion makes me hypocritical or w/e, that's fine.
2) Well... whatever you think Alex said, I would place more weight on what the Anti-Monitor himself said half a dozen times. You could post scans one scan. But we both know why you don't. Because I would immediately inundate that single scan with many scans to the contrary. From the actual comic we're discussing. Go ahead. Dare me. COIE Anti-Monitor defeated a thousand+ universes. Not an infinite amount. From his own mouth.
3) Let's be clear. Here and now: I don't give a sh1t about Mxy. Or Prime. Or the Beyonders. I only give a sh1t about why you think COIE Anti-Monitor was a "megaversal power" when he got the sh1t kicked out of him by Supergirl. Based on your understandable skepticism over other supposedly multiversal powers like the Beyonders when they were defeated by a 100,000+ Molecule Man bomb, how exactly does COIE Anti-Monitor's supposed "megaversality" escape your sharp critique?
1.) The only time we even saw Monitor operate at his theoretical peak would have been when he fought AM to a stalemate eons ago in the flashback. When he was first introduced in COIE, however, Monitor was already weakened as a result of AM's machinations, and therefore unable to operate in his full multiversal capacity.
2.) Okay. So we ignore Alex's statement about "infinite universes", along with all of the other corroborative sources released in the years since, because you prefer to run with some of the other, more finite, dialogue from the source material? That's fine. Your opinion here obviously isn't going to change, so why continue?
3.) At his peak, I do believe AM was a low megaversal power. He wasn't at his peak when he fought Supergirl, however, but was logically still extremely powerful. That said, Supergirl was indeed slapping AM around before he killed her. The showing happened, and can be interpreted as high or low as you like. I just view it differently than you, I suppose(for reasons already mentioned.)
Originally posted by Galan0071) So no multiversal feats. Right. 👆
1.) The only time we even saw Monitor operate at his theoretical peak would have been when he fought AM to a stalemate eons ago in the flashback. When he was first introduced in COIE, however, Monitor was already weakened as a result of AM's machinations, and therefore unable to operate in his full multiversal capacity.2.) Okay. So we ignore Alex's statement about "infinite universes", along with all of the other corroborative sources released in the years since, because you prefer to run with some of the other, more finite, dialogue from the source material? That's fine. Your opinion here obviously isn't going to change, so why continue?
2) Well... you're ignoring multiple Anti-Monitor's (and other's) statements about how he defeated only thousand(s) universes. Given it's the Anti-Monitor's feat you're trying to build up, why do Anti-Monitor's own statements mean nothing to you? Rheotorical question. My opinion only needs changing when reasoning compels it. So let's not pretend the shoe's on the other foot here, mang. But I've challenged you to post scans too many times only to be met with silence. So it's about time I just bludgeon you with scans from the actual comics now:
Originally posted by Galan0073) Ruh roh. You better reread Crisis on Infinite Earths. Anti-Monitor was actually at his peak power when Supergirl confronted him. Don't try to argue otherwise. Cmon now.
3.) At his peak, I do believe AM was a low megaversal power. He wasn't at his peak when he fought Supergirl, however, but was logically still extremely powerful. That said, Supergirl was indeed slapping AM around before he killed her. The showing happened, and can be interpreted as high or low as you like. I just view it differently than you, I suppose(for reasons already mentioned.)
Then again, what does it matter at this point? You won't apply your understandable skepticism over supposedly multiversal powers like the Beyonders when they were defeated by a 100,000+ Molecule Man bomb, to the supposedly megaversal COIE Anti-Monitor, after all. Pointing out your double-standard should be enough but I'm all set to go another step forward and utterly disprove your argument.