Superman/Martian Manhunter vs Silver Surfer/Thor (average versions)

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Pretty sure both instances take place when Superman was weakened.

https://ibb.co/0tX4kqc
https://ibb.co/t8VcmqN

The second scan is more relevant because it's superimposed on both of the stories I cited. But we don't know what this weakness entailed. It certainly not grounds for arbitrary extrapolation. But even if we're being extremely generous and allow you to double the temperature (because he was split in two). It's still nowhere near enough to cause any harm to either Thor or the Silver Surfer.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
His Heat Vision cancels out the absolut zero temperatures of Captain Cold’s gun.
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/...bsoluteZero.jpg

Only carver will say that surfer fighting at nano seconds is an everyday thing but Superman using heat vision is not.

Originally posted by h1a8
Those are low showings.

Originally posted by h1a8
Superman's hv has reached temperatures beyond a trillion degrees.

Originally posted by h1a8
And you know 5000 degrees can't be right since Superman has nearly vaporized steel before (melting it almost instantly). The melting point of steel is about 1400 degrees Celsius.

Originally posted by h1a8
Ice can be harder than steel depending on the temperature and pressure of it.
You are only familiar with common ice that's a little below 0 degrees. Celsius.

Also, the colder ice gets the more fragile it becomes. Because there's less internal movement to absorb impacts making it more prone to cracking.

Originally posted by h1a8
Plus this is comic alien ice, just as potent as magic ice.
Freezing Bizarro and WW are its feats.

Originally posted by Astner
The first scan is from an unrelated story that isn't referenced in the Justice League (2016) run, furthermore, there's nothing suggesting that Superman is weakened in this story.

The second scan is more relevant because it's superimposed on both of the stories I cited. But we don't know what this weakness entailed. It certainly not grounds for arbitrary extrapolation. But even if we're being extremely generous and allow you to double the temperature (because he was split in two). It's still nowhere near enough to cause any harm to either Thor or the Silver Surfer.

Absolute zero is roughly -270 degrees Celsius, supposing air is the medium and the outdoor temperature is 20 degrees we're looking at 290 degrees for Superman's Heat Vision here. Needless to say, that's even less impressive.

As for the second question, in the Super-Man 10 it specifically mentions it tampers Superman's powers
https://ibb.co/HPxQjnd

The energy requires to reach the absolute zero (at least, in one version I read) is infinite energy. So I would think the heat which Superman produces here would also in that category

But if you want a more scientific one.
His heat vision is off-charts by any of the standard scientific measures
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/hvbeyondscientificmeasures1.jpg

And the last time I checked, the hottest temperature ever recorded is like trillions degrees Celsius

Edit:
I'm also not certain that the temperature you mentioned wouldn't bother/faze Thor. As far as I know, Thor was being hurt by the surface temperature of the Sun, no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That....doesn't answer my question, lol.

What is YOUR definition of 'consistent'? 'A dozen times' is mentioned in the rules - but how often has Hulk (as an example) gone WBH? Not trying to trap you, am trying to use examples so you'd understand. How often has Storm, since the 70s, flash frozen someone?

How often has Surfer actually used someone's radiation weakness against another? Not even just threatened.

In short, how are you defining average and consistent?

Who uses WBH in a regular Hulk thread? I don't do it. If Surfer doesn't use weakness exploitation enough, then it can't be used here. If Storm rarely use Flash freeze then it's unusable in a fight like this. Simple, you have to prove the character use said abilities and its not a one, 2 or 3 off.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
The first scan is the pre-merged Superman(the one you used in the first scan)

As for the second question, in the Super-Man 10 it specifically mentions it tampers Superman's powers
https://ibb.co/HPxQjnd

The energy requires to reach the absolute zero (at least, in one version I read) is infinite energy. So I would think the heat which Superman produces here would also in that category

But if you want a more scientific one.
His heat vision is off-charts by any of the standard scientific measures
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/hvbeyondscientificmeasures1.jpg

And the last time I checked, the hottest temperature ever recorded is like trillions degrees Celsius

Edit:
I'm also not certain that the temperature you mentioned wouldn't bother/faze Thor. As far as I know, Thor was being hurt by the surface temperature of the Sun, no?

Isn't that second scan hyperbole. Kinda like statements of Hulk strength being immeasurable?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
The first scan is the pre-merged Superman(the one you used in the first scan)

This would be as if someone decided to rely on the recent Detective Comics run and Superman run to downplay the White Sun boost Superman has in Action Comics. In the scene from Justice League (2016) Superman there's nothing that alludes to Superman being weakened.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
As for the second question, in the Super-Man 10 it specifically mentions it tampers Superman's powers
https://ibb.co/HPxQjnd

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
The energy requires to reach the absolute zero (at least, in one version I read) is infinite energy. So I would think the heat which Superman produces here would also in that category

Moreover, what you're referring to here with absolute zero proper is that it would require infinitely many steps to reach (form the Third Law of Thermodynamics), and thus infinite energy. Another way to phrase this is that absolute zero proper isn't possible. It would also go against Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle (even after a finite amount of steps).

But "absolute zero" is also used to describe conditions close to absolute zero proper, so if you're off by a percentage or so, you may still refer to it as absolute zero temperatures, at which point it's not particularly impressive.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
But if you want a more scientific one.
His heat vision is off-charts by any of the standard scientific measures
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/hvbeyondscientificmeasures1.jpg

And the last time I checked, the hottest temperature ever recorded is like trillions degrees Celsius

Give me an actual number, or a feat where you don't have to make any notable assumptions.

Originally posted by Astner
It doesn't matter because it's an unrelated story that's not referenced.

This would be as if someone decided to rely on the recent Detective Comics run and Superman run to downplay the White Sun boost Superman has in Action Comics. In the scene from Justice League (2016) Superman there's nothing that alludes to Superman being weakened.

This doesn't provide any new information.

What is it with the infinity and people's brains shutting down when discussing it? Superman doesn't have infinite power. If he did he'd never struggle with anything.

Moreover, what you're referring to here with absolute zero proper is that it would require infinitely many steps to reach (form the Third Law of Thermodynamics), and thus infinite energy. Another way to phrase this is that absolute zero proper isn't possible. It would also go against Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle (even after a finite amount of steps).

But "absolute zero" is also used to describe conditions close to absolute zero proper, so if you're off by a percentage or so, you may still refer to it as absolute zero temperatures, at which point it's not particularly impressive.

I'm not sure why a news reporter engaging in hyperbole saying "it's off the charts by any standard scientific measure," would account for anything. Especially after comparing it to an industrial laser and pointing out that it's derived from the Sun.

Give me an actual number, or a feat where you don't have to make any notable assumptions.

Well, it proves that Superman was weakened in terms of powers. So the showings you're referring to use as the maximum output of Superman's HV is a bit iffy(and that hasn't brought up about "these are low showings" bit)

Yeah, but on the contrary, I suppose I also could say that you seem to like chalk all the showings that you don't like as hyperboles. Despite Cold(who has been established to use absolute zero gun for decades and sometimes can even go below absolute zero temperature) specifically referred to his cold gun as minus 459.67 degrees Fahrenheit in that scene, a very specific and scientific number for absolute zero

The news reporter scene also can be argued similarly. I also could say it immediately points out that there may be no limit for the energy HV could charge supports the "it's off the charts by any standard scientific measure" statement

And the same critics to the last statement of yours. Since I also can say you're ignoring the actual number( Cold's very specific number) and makes assumptions(the "that statement is a hyperbole" habit)
But we did have the showing that Thor got burnt by the Sun, so I'm not sure your initial statements that HV wouldn't bother Thor are accurate
https://i.imgur.com/8C8XvDp.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/lvvpY8U.jpeg

Edit:
And that's not going to the department where Superman could simply use HV to burn the air in Thor's lungs argument(HV would still bother/faze/pose as a threat to Thor) argument

Originally posted by Astner
It doesn't matter because it's an unrelated story that's not referenced.

This would be as if someone decided to rely on the recent Detective Comics run and Superman run to downplay the White Sun boost Superman has in Action Comics. In the scene from Justice League (2016) Superman there's nothing that alludes to Superman being weakened.

Originally posted by Astner
I don't get this. There's one vague statement, that's it. And the only reason there's any credibility to it is because he was recently strengthen by the exposure to a white star. Let's at the very least wait until he gets some impressive feats.

Not to mention the Fail-safe Arc was retconned to occur after Dark Crisis meaning that the Superman is getting his ass whopped by a robot (which looked bad enough even when he was weakened) is supposed to be even more powerful than he's ever been.

Originally posted by carver9
Who uses WBH in a regular Hulk thread? I don't do it. If Surfer doesn't use weakness exploitation enough, then it can't be used here. If Storm rarely use Flash freeze then it's unusable in a fight like this. Simple, you have to prove the character use said abilities and its not a one, 2 or 3 off.

So like, 4 times? That's what I'm trying to get at here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So like, 4 times? That's what I'm trying to get at here.

Can't answer that because Superman has FAR more appearances than Surfer. Consistency is the key here. Does Surfer, Thor, or Superman use this power or ability enough for it to be used here?

Originally posted by carver9
If Storm rarely use Flash freeze then it's unusable in a fight like this.

Not this again...

Are you trying to give all of us the flashbacks from the Tinfoil Wars? 😂

🤣🤣🤣

Originally posted by carver9
Can't answer that because Superman has FAR more appearances than Surfer. Consistency is the key here. Does Surfer, Thor, or Superman use this power or ability enough for it to be used here?

Yeah so what's consistent? That's my original question. Because it just then boils down to who's read more comics, rather than appearances.

For example, you and I both know abhi has probably got a file/folder somewhere filled with nothing but Surfer and Thor low showings. Hell, the Thor Vs street levellers thread is proof of this.

So do we say consistently, Thor is slower than a street? It's certainly more than a 1,2,3 off. Would you say Thor has more showings than Superman? Probably not, which mewns it's CONSISTENT (as per what I'm getting from you thus far) that Thor is only slightly above human speed, if that.

And then you just KNOW that abhi will have a folder of Surfer getting drained dry (mmmm). And another folder of Superman absorbing energy - certainly more than 1,2,3 times.

So are you going to agree with him that Surfer Vs Superman, Superman drains all of Surfer's energy? That's what I'm trying to get at.

Originally posted by Astner
As far as I know those are the only official numbers we have.

No. If it had it would be plastered all over this forum.

Like you said, the melting point of steel is 1,400 C, and the boiling point of steel is 2,500 C (with some deviation depending on the kind of steel) both of which are notably below 5,000 C.

What? Ice has a hardness of 2.5 Mohs, steel ranges from 4 - 8 Mohs (depending on the alloy, tempering, etc.). Steel is also a lot a lot tougher than ice.

Also, the colder ice gets the more fragile it becomes. Because there's less internal movement to absorb impacts making it more prone to cracking.

Come on. You're smarter than this.

So you admit to not knowing about the HV feat above a trillion degrees. Understood. And it was plastered here, years ago. I guess you missed it.
🙄

The hardness of ice varies on the temperature and pressur
"Ice has a hardness of 2.5 Mohs" disqualifies you of any scientific debating. That was a very misinformed statement. That statement is only true under a specific range of temperatures and pressures.

Under specific temperatures and pressures ICE can be both harder and tougher than steel. Come on, You're smarter than this.
And those specific circumstances can occur in fiction from an alien with exotic powers who can freeze both high class 100 level beings.
This is comic ice, not standard.

Originally posted by carver9
Can't answer that because Superman has FAR more appearances than Surfer. Consistency is the key here. Does Surfer, Thor, or Superman use this power or ability enough for it to be used here?

He's trying to establish a hard rule that if both you agree on then neither of can dispute and the debate can progress.

Without hard numbers then you or anyone can flip flop or state "in their opinion, character X can do it because..."

Originally posted by Astner
Based off official values? roughly 5,000 degrees.

That's the lowest estimate, really.

Solar plasma can go from 6,000 degrees (5,726 degrees C) to 'well over' 10^6 K (9.9 million degrees C).

Originally posted by Astner
The second scan is more relevant because it's superimposed on both of the stories I cited. But we don't know what this weakness entailed. It certainly not grounds for arbitrary extrapolation. But even if we're being extremely generous and allow you to double the temperature (because he was split in two). It's still nowhere near enough to cause any harm to either Thor or the Silver Surfer.

I dare say solar plasma temps would harm this Thor.

And no, I don't care that the scans are GIGANTIC.

^^ strongest being he knows. Stronger than the Hulk?

Originally posted by Diesldude
^^ strongest being he knows. Stronger than the Hulk?

SHE. That's Freyja talking there. I just chalk it up to a mom talking her little boy up.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah so what's consistent? That's my original question. Because it just then boils down to who's read more comics, rather than appearances.

For example, you and I both know abhi has probably got a file/folder somewhere filled with nothing but Surfer and Thor low showings. Hell, the Thor Vs street levellers thread is proof of this.

So do we say consistently, Thor is slower than a street? It's certainly more than a 1,2,3 off. Would you say Thor has more showings than Superman? Probably not, which mewns it's CONSISTENT (as per what I'm getting from you thus far) that Thor is only slightly above human speed, if that.

And then you just KNOW that abhi will have a folder of Surfer getting drained dry (mmmm). And another folder of Superman absorbing energy - certainly more than 1,2,3 times.

So are you going to agree with him that Surfer Vs Superman, Superman drains all of Surfer's energy? That's what I'm trying to get at.

Why mention low showings when I said this is all about their averages? If on average they suck, it wouldn't be considered a low.

If Thor is consistently slower than street level and you provide proof of that, then yes, that's a solid argument.

What's the average of Surfer getting drained versus him fighting against such tactics?

How many times has Superman drained someone, especially someone of Surfer caliber. This is simple. If you say Superman beats Surfer by draining him, you need to provide enough proof showing that's within his abilities to do, not just a one off or two off. If we use one off, then people like Spiderman can survive the UN, Colossus can lift islands, Sun Spot can push planetary weight, Wonder Woman has star level strength, Cyborg, Mera, and Batman has nano seconds speeds (lmao), and the list goes on and on.