Superman/Martian Manhunter vs Silver Surfer/Thor (average versions)

Originally posted by carver9
Why mention low showings when I said this is all about their averages? If on average they suck, it wouldn't be considered a low.

If Thor is consistently slower than street level and you provide proof of that, then yes, that's a solid argument.

What's the average of Surfer getting drained versus him fighting against such tactics?

How many times has Superman drained someone, especially someone of Surfer caliber. This is simple. If you say Superman beats Surfer by draining him, you need to provide enough proof showing that's within his abilities to do, not just a one off or two off. If we use one off, then people like Spiderman can survive the UN, Colossus can lift islands, Sun Spot can push planetary weight, Wonder Woman has star level strength, Cyborg, Mera, and Batman has nano seconds speeds (lmao), and the list goes on and on.

Because your argument about high showings can also be applied to low showings.

You say 'for something to be valid/a valid tactic, character X has to have done it more than 1,2,3, times'.

Iow, if it happens more than X times (which I keep asking for), then.....it's consistent.

So if Thor keeps getting embarrassed by street tiers - and again, you know the showings are there, there's an entire thread of them - then it's..... consistent, according to your logic.

It works both ways, without a definition of consistency. Is it a percentage? If you can't answer it, then it just becomes bias driven.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
The first scan is the pre-merged Superman(the one you used in the first scan)

As for the second question, in the Super-Man 10 it specifically mentions it tampers Superman's powers
https://ibb.co/HPxQjnd

The energy requires to reach the absolute zero (at least, in one version I read) is infinite energy. So I would think the heat which Superman produces here would also in that category

But if you want a more scientific one.
His heat vision is off-charts by any of the standard scientific measures
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/hvbeyondscientificmeasures1.jpg

And the last time I checked, the hottest temperature ever recorded is like trillions degrees Celsius

Edit:
I'm also not certain that the temperature you mentioned wouldn't bother/faze Thor. As far as I know, Thor was being hurt by the surface temperature of the Sun, no?

But I do expect that comics would probably require more than +273 Celsius temperatures. I just don't think infinite heat energy should be expected here.

Lol at thinking something 273 Celsius can neutralize - 273 Celcius instantly.
Astner is disqualified.

That would mean putting a - 20 degree ice cube into 20 degree water (both equal volume) will suddenly make the ice cube melt completely into water INSTANTLY.
Try it.
🙄

Originally posted by ODG

But I do expect that comics would probably require more than +273 Celsius temperatures. I just don't think infinite heat energy should be expected here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's the lowest estimate, really.

Solar plasma can go from 6,000 degrees (5,726 degrees C) to 'well over' 10^6 K (9.9 million degrees C).

I dare say solar plasma temps would harm this Thor.

And no, I don't care that the scans are GIGANTIC.

For example, a lot more specific one is Superman's HV reaches the temperature of a star's core(millions of degrees)
https://ibb.co/khSSXBL

And from the information I googled on the internet, the heat of the core should be at least 10 million kelvin( 9 999 726 degrees Celsius) to be considered as a star

This thread turned to shit quick.

What the Superman Squad seem to have done here is to have read the headline of pop-science, along the lines of "It takes infinite energy to reach Absolute Zero," and then (without any grasp of- or interest in physics) conclude it's a negative infinite-energy state of sorts that they can project onto the blanket term "Absolute Zero."

And when confronted with the fact that there are better explanations, such as the temperatures being approximately Absolute Zero, just as we'd call ice "zero degrees" (Celsius) despite not actually being exactly zero degrees.

Even the expression -273.15 degrees puts a scientific bound on it (that's distinct from e.g. -273.150, or -273.1500, etc.) So even if you're given the value "-273.15 C" that scientifically means -273.15±0.005 C, of course we're interested in the upper bound, -273.1495 C, and that's assuming it wasn't an exaggeration or tangential explanation to begin with. Because despite bringing up this "fact" they've yet to motivate it with scans.

But before we move on, let's just establish a few theoretical tidbits:
[list=1][*]Absolute Zero isn't an negative infinite-energy state. It's a state that can't be reached in a finite number of steps.
[*]Absolute Zero is limit value of Classical Thermodynamics.
[*]Given a theoretical Absolute Zero state in Classical Thermodynamics, it wouldn't take infinite energy to heat it up.
[*]Classical Thermodynamics are inaccuracy for low-energy states.
[*]If we consider Quantum Thermodynamics instead, we hit a limit called Zero-Point Energy before we reach Absolute Zero.[/list]
Getting back to the thread.

After some extensive digging Darksaint managed to get a 6,000 degree value for Superman's Heat Vision, which is 20% higher what I estimated. Now, it's not without its flaws (as would be evident if Darksaint provided the context). But even if we give it to him, it doesn't change anything. Thor swam in the Sun for days, he can endure solar plasma for days.

Of course, it goes without saying that Pre-Crisis feats aren't admissible either, as it's a completely different character.

And h1a8 seems to been huffing paint-thinner for this past year, because he was not this brain-damaged the last time I interacted with him.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Just remembered, this opinion seems a bit contradictive to an opinion you made not long ago(relatively), if I'm not misunderstanding what you mean

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, I think that's the point here. Infinite energy?probably not. Far more than +273 Celsius? I would say based on how potent is absolute zero in RL, the answer is yes( and I fully believe it also requires a lot more energy than generating heat at like the surface of the Sun)

Originally posted by Astner
This thread turned to shit quick.

What the Superman Squad seem to have done here is to have read the headline of pop-science, along the lines of "It takes infinite energy to reach Absolute Zero," and then (without any grasp of- or interest in physics) conclude it's a negative infinite-energy state of sorts that they can project onto the blanket term "Absolute Zero."

And when confronted with the fact that there are better explanations, such as the temperatures being approximately Absolute Zero, just as we'd call ice "zero degrees" (Celsius) despite not actually being exactly zero degrees.

Even the expression -273.15 degrees puts a scientific bound on it (that's distinct from e.g. -273.150, or -273.1500, etc.) So even if you're given the value "-273.15 C" that scientifically means -273.15±0.005 C, of course we're interested in the upper bound, -273.1495 C, and that's assuming it wasn't an exaggeration or tangential explanation to begin with. Because despite bringing up this "fact" they've yet to motivate it with scans.

But before we move on, let's just establish a few theoretical tidbits:
[list=1][*]Absolute Zero isn't an negative infinite-energy state. It's a state that can't be reached in a finite number of steps.
[*]Absolute Zero is limit value of Classical Thermodynamics.
[*]Given a theoretical Absolute Zero state in Classical Thermodynamics, it wouldn't take infinite energy to heat it up.
[*]Classical Thermodynamics are inaccuracy for low-energy states.
[*]If we consider Quantum Thermodynamics instead, we hit a limit called Zero-Point Energy before we reach Absolute Zero.[/list]
Getting back to the thread.

After some extensive digging Darksaint managed to get a 6,000 degree value for Superman's Heat Vision, which is 20% higher what I estimated. Now, it's not without its flaws (as would be evident if Darksaint provided the context). But even if we give it to him, it doesn't change anything. Thor swam in the Sun for days, he can endure solar plasma for days.

Of course, it goes without saying that Pre-Crisis feats aren't admissible either, as it's a completely different character.

And h1a8 seems to been huffing paint-thinner for this past year, because he was not this brain-damaged the last time I interacted with him.

👆 👆

Originally posted by Astner
This thread turned to shit quick.

What the Superman Squad seem to have done here is to have read the headline of pop-science, along the lines of "It takes infinite energy to reach Absolute Zero," and then (without any grasp of- or interest in physics) conclude it's a negative infinite-energy state of sorts that they can project onto the blanket term "Absolute Zero."

And when confronted with the fact that there are better explanations, such as the temperatures being approximately Absolute Zero, just as we'd call ice "zero degrees" (Celsius) despite not actually being exactly zero degrees.

Even the expression -273.15 degrees puts a scientific bound on it (that's distinct from e.g. -273.150, or -273.1500, etc.) So even if you're given the value "-273.15 C" that scientifically means -273.15±0.005 C, of course we're interested in the upper bound, -273.1495 C, and that's assuming it wasn't an exaggeration or tangential explanation to begin with. Because despite bringing up this "fact" they've yet to motivate it with scans.

But before we move on, let's just establish a few theoretical tidbits:
[list=1][*]Absolute Zero isn't an negative infinite-energy state. It's a state that can't be reached in a finite number of steps.
[*]Absolute Zero is limit value of Classical Thermodynamics.
[*]Given a theoretical Absolute Zero state in Classical Thermodynamics, it wouldn't take infinite energy to heat it up.
[*]Classical Thermodynamics are inaccuracy for low-energy states.
[*]If we consider Quantum Thermodynamics instead, we hit a limit called Zero-Point Energy before we reach Absolute Zero.[/list]
Getting back to the thread.

After some extensive digging Darksaint managed to get a 6,000 degree value for Superman's Heat Vision, which is 20% higher what I estimated. Now, it's not without its flaws (as would be evident if Darksaint provided the context). But even if we give it to him, it doesn't change anything. Thor swam in the Sun for days, he can endure solar plasma for days.

Of course, it goes without saying that Pre-Crisis feats aren't admissible either, as it's a completely different character.

And h1a8 seems to been huffing paint-thinner for this past year, because he was not this brain-damaged the last time I interacted with him.

As for whether pre-crisis is admissible or not

Originally posted by Galan007
I am currently of the opinion that everything in DC's published history is now canon and therefore up for grabs -- most material seems to paint that picture.

But yeah, if you don't want the 'composite canon' thing to be used, just specify a particular version of the character in the OP.

Originally posted by -Pr-
In all seriousness, I agree with Galan for the most part. People just need to state the version in the OP.

Originally posted by Astner
The Fail-safe Arc was superimposed on the other stories at the end of Dark Crisis (main series),

Originally posted by Astner
This thread turned to shit quick.

What the Superman Squad seem to have done here is to have read the headline of pop-science, along the lines of "It takes infinite energy to reach Absolute Zero," and then (without any grasp of- or interest in physics) conclude it's a negative infinite-energy state of sorts that they can project onto the blanket term "Absolute Zero."

And when confronted with the fact that there are better explanations, such as the temperatures being approximately Absolute Zero, just as we'd call ice "zero degrees" (Celsius) despite not actually being exactly zero degrees.

Even the expression -273.15 degrees puts a scientific bound on it (that's distinct from e.g. -273.150, or -273.1500, etc.) So even if you're given the value "-273.15 C" that scientifically means -273.15±0.005 C, of course we're interested in the upper bound, -273.1495 C, and that's assuming it wasn't an exaggeration or tangential explanation to begin with. Because despite bringing up this "fact" they've yet to motivate it with scans.

But before we move on, let's just establish a few theoretical tidbits:
[list=1][*]Absolute Zero isn't an negative infinite-energy state. It's a state that can't be reached in a finite number of steps.
[*]Absolute Zero is limit value of Classical Thermodynamics.
[*]Given a theoretical Absolute Zero state in Classical Thermodynamics, it wouldn't take infinite energy to heat it up.
[*]Classical Thermodynamics are inaccuracy for low-energy states.
[*]If we consider Quantum Thermodynamics instead, we hit a limit called Zero-Point Energy before we reach Absolute Zero.[/list]
Getting back to the thread.

After some extensive digging Darksaint managed to get a 6,000 degree value for Superman's Heat Vision, which is 20% higher what I estimated. Now, it's not without its flaws (as would be evident if Darksaint provided the context). But even if we give it to him, it doesn't change anything. Thor swam in the Sun for days, he can endure solar plasma for days.

Of course, it goes without saying that Pre-Crisis feats aren't admissible either, as it's a completely different character.

And h1a8 seems to been huffing paint-thinner for this past year, because he was not this brain-damaged the last time I interacted with him.

Wrong, he just heals quickly.

He doesn't swim in the sun for days at a time. He swims in there, every day, until his eyes start to burn, then he has to come out before more damage is done.

It's like me coming to a swimming pool, and diving in every day for weeks until my lungs start to burn (ok, metaphorically not literally). Your logic would be that I can swim underwater for days.

Which is wrong. And no, no extensive digging was needed - I own that comic, and I knew that the sun was at least hotter than 5,000 degrees C.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So....you think your interpretaion is a better explanation...despite the fact the Cold has decades history that established his cold gun is absolute zero(like, in his very first appearances) and the comic puts a specific number that aligns to it(for example, when you googled it, that would be a genereal answer)

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
As for whether pre-crisis is admissible or not

The worst part of this is that you know this. But you're hoping that the people reading our posts don't.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Yeah, but the Dark Crisis isn't mentioning white sun either.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So use it to seemingly downplay White Sun amped Superman looks a bit contradictive to the post you made

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Wrong, he just heals quickly.

He doesn't swim in the sun for days at a time. He swims in there, every day, until his eyes start to burn, then he has to come out before more damage is done.

It's like me coming to a swimming pool, and diving in every day for weeks until my lungs start to burn (ok, metaphorically not literally). Your logic would be that I can swim underwater for days.

Which is wrong. And no, no extensive digging was needed - I own that comic, and I knew that the sun was at least hotter than 5,000 degrees C.

Well, that's a.... generous interpretation (not to mention wrong).

The comics say that his eyes start to roast in his sockets in solar plasma temps. He fights to keeps his eyes open. No where does it say he endured it for extended periods of time, any more than me coming to a swimming pool for weeks and diving in every day until my lungs start burning equals me......being able to stay underwater for extended periods of time.

Superman can generate solar temps. And pretty high ones too, as they're likened to (microscopic) supernovae, which extensive digging tells me can reach 1 billion degrees C (which is rather more than '20% higher than 5,000 degrees'😉, even if on a microscopic level.

Those are the two statements - you adding on the extended periods is just bias, unfortunately.

So yeah, based on the two statements we actually read in the scans I helpfully blew up, he can hurt Thor, easily.

Originally posted by Astner
Did you not read my argument? First and foremost, what paragraph in story are you referring to? Secondly, "-273.15 C" is scientifically distinct from "-273.150 C," that's how significant figures work.

Originally posted by Astner
"-273.15 C" is scientifically distinct from "-273.150 C," that's how significant figures work.

Originally posted by Astner

Just because the events are canon (i.e. they happened) doesn't mean that Kal-L and Kal-El are the same character. In fact, both Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis would have to be retconned for that to be the case.

I.E, that's Kal-El, not Kal-L(who mainly appeared in Golden Age, and works for Daily Star, not Daily Planet)

So Astner trolls and states writer's intent for absolute zero is not actually absolute zero

Then he trolls and states that WW and Bizarro got frozen by some 2.5 Mohs ice (which all ice isn't) and ignores the fact that ice is just a byproduct of them being frozen Directly. And ignores writer's intent that the freeze breath is powerful enough to hold WW and Bizarro.

And ignores evidence of Superman's hv showing to being above a trillion degrees.

Originally posted by Astner
No, but it's an event that tied all of these stories together.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The comics say that his eyes start to roast in his sockets in solar plasma temps. He fights to keeps his eyes open. No where does it say he endured it for extended periods of time, any more than me coming to a swimming pool for weeks and diving in every day until my lungs start burning equals me......being able to stay underwater for extended periods of time.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Superman can generate solar temps. And pretty high ones too, as they're likened to (microscopic) supernovae, which extensive digging tells me can reach 1 billion degrees C (which is rather more than '20% higher than 5,000 degrees'😉, even if on a microscopic level.

Why? Because you can't stick up to the fact that Superman's Heat Vision would be next to useless against Thor based off feats. So you have to resort to highly speculative interpretations that don't meet the standard of the forum.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Those are the two statements - you adding on the extended periods is just bias, unfortunately.

Originally posted by Astner
But we do see Thor with his eyes open inside of the Sun...in the scan you posted. His eyes are being directly exposed to the solar plasma. It hurts him, sure, but he can endure it. So even if Superman used his Heat Vision on Thor's eyes it wouldn't stop Thor in his tracks.

Now you're cherry-picking, and poorly at that. It said solar plasma. It's the reaction caused by the interaction of the fire demon and Superman's Heat Vision (that reached the temperatures of solar plasma) that caused this "microscopic supernova" (which isn't a even real phenomena), yet you insist on associating it with specific properties of actual supernovae.

Why? Because you can't stick up to the fact that Superman's Heat Vision would be next to useless against Thor based off feats. So you have to resort to highly speculative interpretations that don't meet the standard of the forum.

What am I adding?

Oh ok, so it hurts him. So back to your original statement, Thor gets hurt by solar plasma, Superman can generate solar plasma. Glad we agree.

Now you're adding the fire demon? Where in Batman's explanation is any attribution given to the demon? Please point it out. What Batman DOES say, is that in effect, it is a microscopic supernova. It has the effect of one.

So yeah, temperature would be an effect, I reckon.

You are ALSO adding this ' endure for extended' periods of time, although, I see you are now walking back and acknowledging that I am correct, and that solar plasma temperatures hurt Thor. He has them open for a couple of panels before having to shut them and then gets called out by his mother.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
This
https://ibb.co/yF114hv

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Luckily, this is a comic book, not an scientific article

It's also weird how you insist on pushing this as a non-quantifiable feat. Because if it isn't quantifiable then you can't derive any values for it. It just goes into the trash pile of "writers failing to grasp physics." Like when Kyle Rayner thought splitting a random atom would cause a nuclear explosion. We're not re-envisioning the DC Universe to account for stupid shit like that.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Huh? no, it is from Superman 145, which published in Silver Age. And Superman is working for the Planet(Daily Planet) in that story.
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_Vol_1_145
https://ibb.co/F6H8085

I.E, that's Kal-El, not Kal-L(who mainly appeared in Golden Age, and works for Daily Star, not Daily Planet)