Originally posted by abhilegend
Handbooks don't mean shit when actual comics made it clear even celestials were superior to post retcon Beyonder and the cosmic entities were just letting him think all that stuff happened.
And here are some examples on panel all of these are Post Retcon, pay special attention to the first one, it's the Trial of Death :
Beyonder wins.
Originally posted by zopzop
Handbooks can confirm what went on on panel.And here are some examples on panel all of these are Post Retcon, pay special attention to the first one, it's the Trial of Death :
Beyonder wins.
Are we talking about Defenders Beyond version of the Beyonder who was shit scared of Phoenix Force (who got stalemated by Tiger God who lost to White Tiger and Black Panther under Ewing)?
Dude, stop smoking crack.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Just mention Dream actually appeared in Dark Nights Metal and Barbatos burning his library is a plot point in Sandman universe.
i get what he was trying to argue
which is different writers build their worlds differently
when morrison wrote final crisis he didn't have (endless/lucifer/michael etc) in mind
when carey wrote lucifer, or gaiman wrote sandman monitors/nil/mandrakk etc wasn't a thing
but it's all canon
that's why it's so disingenuous when the likes of odg/astner etc want to use only feats from a specific run and disregard everything else.
especially for cross company fights, the bigger cosmology within a company needs to be presented for it to make sense when comparing scope of powers
it's good that death metal and dark crisis happened. watters and snyder tied a lot of loose ends together and definitely boosted dc cosmology into new height of power(despite the quality of the story)
Originally posted by Juntai
Sure, so let’s have a conversation about it.Vertigo’s presence, Lucifer and Michael and all the Sandman titles as well as swamp thing and Constantine and related characters are all part of DC.
It’s true there is many creation stories but the primary two are the magic one with Endless/Lucifer/Spectre by Gaiman Carey and other and the cosmic one done by Kirby/Byrne/Wolfman/Morrison.
Morrison loosely tried to make sense of it.
And now Snyder has retooled it even more.
But we know that the Presence/The Source/ The Overvoid are all the same thing, or named pieces of the same thing.
And we know that Yahweh is what the angels call The Presence, or at minimum, the face it shows to them.
One major cosmology for the magic side and one for the cosmic side. (Not including the somewhat meta side that both of these cosmologies actually spawn from Superman.)
Then for purposes of scaling we have to go from there. Which can be a bit more difficult with Sandman characters as it’s largely all fairy tales, fables and metaphors rather than cosmic stories.
So where we do we put Sandman, especially when it’s mostly fables and whatnot?
Well, we look at his interaction and influence of DC.
Well he put most of his power into his artifacts, although he’s not entirely powerless, 12 stones, 1 crown, and a bag of sand.
The ruby which was allegedly the most powerful of the stones found it’s way to Dr Destiny while Morpheus was captive in Vol 1 and then Dr Destiny corrupted it, and when Morpheus confronted him- during their fight over it, the ruby broke and the power went back to Morpheus.
But a small piece of that Ruby’s power also went into Dr Destiny.
Dr Destiny is both able to do to small scale reality warping through dreams without a ruby at all, but also created his own ruby, the Materioptikon and infused most of his power into that ruby.
How powerful is the Materioptikon?
Well, it’s enough to create entire parallel realities/timelines and then overlap them/rewrite them onto the current one. But because it’s flawed it does damage to the entire spacetime continuum.
That’s a fraction of a fraction of a fraction and so on, of Dreams power.
So how do we scale Lucifer when he has the power of the Morning Star and his wings? Do we agree that he’s mightier than Sandman, when even Dream says he’s more powerful than himself?
Originally posted by Juntai
or explain who Daniel is at all.Or explain the entirety of Oliver Queens death and resurrection.
Or explain Zatanna and Constantine’s entire history without eachother and without Sandman and Swamp Things books.
Or in Spectre vol 3 Corrigan meeting Lucifer on the beach, where he was in Sandman, and also in Lucifer vol 3 he likes to ask people about all the time.
Or Superman and Batman showing up to Morpheus’ funeral.
Or the JLA and other Earth 2 characters showing up all through Sandman.
Daniel repaying Morpheus’ debt in Morrison’s JLA 23.
Death walking around with and talking to Lex Luthor in Action 894,
and Lex offhandedly mentioning something about what if god is a little man in a bowler hat.
Etc etc
these 2 posts need to be appreciated. thanks for this well written analysis with evidence backing it up. 👆
Originally posted by abhilegend
That's just an iteration of cosmic entities letting Beyonder think he was cool lol.Are we talking about Defenders Beyond version of the Beyonder who was shit scared of Phoenix Force (who got stalemated by Tiger God who lost to White Tiger and Black Panther under Ewing)?
Dude, stop smoking crack.
That scan confirmed the SWII and Handbook entries. It also confirmed that the Beyonders are abstract killers. They were capable of destroying their Celestial creators (who just happened to create the multiverse).
Originally posted by kevdude
Ah yes, The Beyonder killing Death feat, taking most of his power to do it, while he was supposedly more powerful than everyone in the Marvel Multiverse.. This guy is more power than Michael, 1 the 3 beings who created the DCU? 🙄
Need I remind you Dream was imprisoned for decades by a mortal sorcerer and couldn't free himself. The magician was actually trying to imprison Death of the Endless but he was such a noob he snared Dream instead. How's that for lowballing?
Originally posted by zopzop
He was at half power at the time and not one of the abstracts could stop him or reverse the damage.Need I remind you Dream was imprisoned for decades by a mortal sorcerer and couldn't free himself. The magician was actually trying to imprison Death of the Endless but he was such a noob he snared Dream instead. How's that for lowballing?
And he still had trouble killing death and bringing it back.
Dream was the weakest he could even remember when that happened, that’s why they were able to capture him, and they never had a chance at Death of the Endless. Nice lowballing Dream when he wasn’t prepared, while the Beyonder was and still had trouble for such a powerful being. 😮💨
Originally posted by kevdude
And he still had trouble killing death and bringing it back.Dream was the weakest he could even remember when that happened, that’s why they were able to capture him, and they never had a chance at Death of the Endless. Nice lowballing Dream when he wasn’t prepared, while the Beyonder was and still had trouble for such a powerful being. 😮💨
Nice try.
Michael doesn’t have much on the way of feats. His is the power of creation and destruction and he’s considered the strongest of everyone but in terms of actual feats his best is probably absolutely clobbering Corrigan Spectre. Or perhaps in the absence of the Presence Michael was refreshing the entirety of creation every moment.
But Most of the rest is his stature and statement.
He’s the ocean of power with no shore.
He could have ended Lucifer’s entire rebellion in Heaven with a gesture.
Of all of gods servants there is none as mighty as Michael.
That said, the bulk of characters like Tribunal or Beyonders stuff is statements too.
Originally posted by JuntaiAt this point, I was waiting for you to start discussing the actual Lucifer volumes 2-3.
Sure, so let’s have a conversation about it.Vertigo’s presence, Lucifer and Michael and all the Sandman titles as well as swamp thing and Constantine and related characters are all part of DC.
It’s true there is many creation stories but the primary two are the magic one with Endless/Lucifer/Spectre by Gaiman Carey and other and the cosmic one done by Kirby/Byrne/Wolfman/Morrison.
Morrison loosely tried to make sense of it.
And now Snyder has retooled it even more.
You didn't. Neither did MrMind.
When you want to discuss the actual character and his appearances, let me know.
Originally posted by MrMindIt was a long-winded way of saying you guys arbitrarily pick and choose which pieces of comic book lore you want when it comes to comparing characters.
these 2 posts need to be appreciated. thanks for this well written analysis with evidence backing it up. 👆
It's one thing if you're criticizing someone's use of tertiary material that didn't even feature Beyonder as if it reverse-inflated what Beyonder did during Secret Wars II.
No. What you're doing is acting like my criticism of your use of tertiary material that didn't even feature Lucifer should be handwaved despite the fact that I keep trying to pull you back to Lucifer's appearances within his own comic book volumes that primarily feature him and Michael and Yahweh.
We both know you realize how stupidly obtuse you're being about this. We also both know you shouldn't expect me not to abjectly ridicule your utter resignation over it. To the point where you can do nothing but half-heartedly cheer on the peanut gallery's contribution to this thread. A contribution which is equally worthless.
When you guys want to actually discuss the Vertigo characters of Lucifer/Michael/Beyonder. Let me know.
^ I might even respect ABC logic if they decided to accept each character's history. At least you could have some sort of conversation about that.
At this point though, this is their argument:
Fanboy interpretation of Lucifer vol.1 + one panel of Lucifer vol.2 - the entireties of Lucifer vols. 2 & 3 x Grant Morrison's Final Crisis cosmology = Michael infinitely beyond Beyonder???????
I mean... MrMind is using a Monitor's purple prose statement that the DC universes were "germ worlds" to characterize the scope of the Monitor Sphere when compared to the DC multiverse.
On the other hand, Beyonder characterized the Marvel Multiverse as a "drop of water" compared to the "ocean" that was the Beyond Realm.
Somehow, based on that purple prose... the DC Multiverse is infinitely beyond the Marvel Multiverse. Arbitrary, but whatever.
Even accepting that arbitrary conclusion, the gap in MrMind's logic is that Michael never represented the entirety of the Monitor Sphere. Not within the pages of Lucifer vols.1-3 or Final Crisis. Beyonder did, however, explicitly represent the entirety of the Beyond Realm in Secret Wars II.
So ignore MrMind's absurd notion that the DC multiverse infinitely outscales the Marvel Multiverse for a minute... even by his own leaps of logic, how did MrMind even equate Michael to the Monitor Sphere to then conclude that Michael infinitely outscales Beyonder?
Did Juntai's tl;dr posts address that either? No. All I have is their continued insistence they're correct. Now whether they'll ever admit they're absent-mindedly ignoring two complete volumes of Lucifer, what exactly am I supposed to be arguing with?