Superman vs Cyclops - twist · Comic Book 'Versus' Forum

Juntai Divine Vengeance

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, but in the same comic, Batman Prime was literally dancing around Bizarro (who has his feats) AND Ultraman (with his back turned to them, no less!), who also has his own feats....
So if we say Owlman is in the rough vicinity of Bruce, due to him stalemating Bruce for 15 minutes, then....are we saying Bruce is faster than Ultraman AND Bizarro, and hence, as those two have fought Superman plenty of times in the past, Batman can do the same to Clark?
I think it's telling that once the Justice Lord versions of Superman/Batman (who explicitly had the same histories and origins) appeared, they were winning against their Earth Prime counterparts, and they needed to castle....

Thats an alternate universe Bizarro, so no, prime Bizarros feats dont count for him. Thats why Incarnate showed up at the end to take them back to their respective universes.
He also explained in your scan he kept them occupied with talking to distract them while leaping around and then casted a spell and summoned the Justice Buster suit.

Smurph tu quoqumber

Originally posted by abhilegend
Basis on?

See my reference to Schism, among other things. I also think he's better at tactically fighting as a human, and I think that powerless Scott is physically > powerless Clark.

There's some guess work and hair splitting here because neither has a ton of feats that fit the thread and you could make a case either way. But my money on Scott. I think the fight against Wolverine was more impressive than this other stuff.

Smurph tu quoqumber

Originally posted by Juntai
Owlman has his own feats, not so much on the others, but Owlman alone has fought Bruce to a standstill for 15 minutes before they quit fighting before. I would say its mosdef impressive that Clark is able to fight him and two others at once.
As for the others, I would say its easy to infer -some- measure of skill, based on them being Bat-alternates, but not necessarily Prime Earth Batman equal.

Right. So the feat definitively puts Superman's skill above Bruce's. After all, Owlman alone can fight Bruce to a standstill for 15 minutes, and Superman beat Owlman with two backup Bruces (for whom we infer -some- measure of skill).

And it didn't seem like it took Superman 15 minutes.

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Originally posted by Juntai
Thats an alternate universe Bizarro, so no, prime Bizarros feats dont count for him. Thats why Incarnate showed up at the end to take them back to their respective universes.
He also explained in your scan he kept them occupied with talking to distract them while leaping around and then casted a spell and summoned the Justice Buster suit.

Right. He's still the Bizarro of Htrae, so has some feats.

So with his back turned to Earth-3 Ultraman, he casually backflips over Ultraman (who in the preceding page even tells the others not to hold back). Ultraman, who has his own feats.

So using the same logic with Owlman (which is the main point here), Batman Prime is faster than Ultraman, who is able to fight Superman. Thus, it shows Batman is able to take Ultraman by surprise (What the..), so he's on the level of Superman at least.

As we can infer *some* measure of speed from the alt.universe Supermen

Smurph tu quoqumber

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, the toughest X-man:

lol

BillionS of simulations totalling billionS of mutant deaths and in every simulation "there was always one X-Man left standing"

Ain't no way powerless Clark is gonna do what billions of Nimrods failed to jockey

abhilegend Prince of All Saiyans

Originally posted by Smurph

Re-read the fight, Cyclops doesn't even lands a punch on Wolverine the entire fight, it's all just optic blasts.

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/X-Men-Schism/Issue-4?id=62901
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/X-Men-Schism/Issue-5?id=62902

abhilegend Prince of All Saiyans

Originally posted by Smurph
See my reference to Schism, among other things. I also think he's better at tactically fighting as a human, and I think that powerless Scott is physically > powerless Clark.

How's powerless Cyclops physically stronger than powerless Superman?

There's some guess work and hair splitting here because neither has a ton of feats that fit the thread and you could make a case either way. But my money on Scott. I think the fight against Wolverine was more impressive than this other stuff.

Of course when you use circular reasoning to negate Superman's feats because it makes him more skilled than batman, sure.

"Superman's feat of beating Owlman doesn't counts so Cyclops is automatically more impressive".

abhilegend Prince of All Saiyans

Originally posted by Smurph
Right. So the feat definitively puts Superman's skill above Bruce's. After all, Owlman alone can fight Bruce to a standstill for 15 minutes, and Superman beat Owlman with two backup Bruces (for whom we infer -some- measure of skill).
And it didn't seem like it took Superman 15 minutes.

Thus by circular reasoning, Superman's feat becomes null and void. Classic kmc tactic of yore, "XYZ feat of Superman doesn't count because so and so, but yeah Silver Surfer creates kryptonite out of thin air to beat Superman because why not".

abhilegend Prince of All Saiyans

Anyway, an almost powerless Superman (who admits Aquaman was a hundred times stronger than him) can still bloody Arthur with a headbutt.

Let's see Cyclops bloodying someone 100 times stronger than him with a headbutt lol.

Smurph tu quoqumber

Originally posted by abhilegend
How's powerless Cyclops physically stronger than powerless Superman?

I think he's tougher.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Of course when you use circular reasoning to negate Superman's feats because it makes him more skilled than batman, sure.
"Superman's feat of beating Owlman doesn't counts so Cyclops is automatically more impressive".

There's nothing circular about the reasoning. You said "Superman beat three alternate universe Batmen, so..." meaning: it's impressive because they're each Batman, and he beat three at once, therefore he obviously wins this.

And I said "cool so I guess we're now saying that Superman is now more skilled than Batman"

That's not circular. I responded to your argument. It's also not negating anything. Use the feat, argue that Superman is a better fighter than Batman. I've got no issue with that.

Smurph tu quoqumber

Originally posted by abhilegend
Thus by circular reasoning, Superman's feat becomes null and void. Classic kmc tactic of yore, "XYZ feat of Superman doesn't count because so and so, but yeah Silver Surfer creates kryptonite out of thin air to beat Superman because why not".

I didn't say it was null and void. I've literally just been parroting your argument back to you and now you're whining about... Silver Surfer?

Smurph tu quoqumber

Originally posted by abhilegend
Re-read the fight, Cyclops doesn't even lands a punch on Wolverine the entire fight, it's all just optic blasts.
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/X-Men-Schism/Issue-4?id=62901
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/X-Men-Schism/Issue-5?id=62902

Re-read issue 5. Those are punches and a tackle. And they're grappling through the whole fight.

The reluctance to go for the punch makes sense. Claws, after all.

Smurph tu quoqumber

Originally posted by abhilegend
Anyway, an almost powerless Superman (who admits Aquaman was a hundred times stronger than him) can still bloody Arthur with a headbutt.

Let's see Cyclops bloodying someone 100 times stronger than him with a headbutt lol.

Cyclops staggering Captain Marvel with an uppercut 👆

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Captain Marvel isn't as strong as 100 human males though. I'd say she's far stronger.

abhilegend Prince of All Saiyans

Originally posted by Smurph
I think he's tougher.

Basis on what exactly?

There's nothing circular about the reasoning. You said "Superman beat three alternate universe Batmen, so..." meaning: it's impressive because they're each Batman, and he beat three at once, therefore he obviously wins this.

No, it's impressive on its own without bringing in Earth prime Batman.

And I said "cool so I guess we're now saying that Superman is now more skilled than Batman"

That's a whole new sentence lol. Nobody's arguing Superman is more skilled than Batman, neither do you need to be as skilled as Batman to beat ****ing cyclops lol.

That's not circular. I responded to your argument. It's also not negating anything. Use the feat, argue that Superman is a better fighter than Batman. I've got no issue with that.

Yes, it's a circular reasoning to negate a feat.

abhilegend Prince of All Saiyans

Originally posted by Smurph
Re-read issue 5. Those are punches and a tackle. And they're grappling through the whole fight.
The reluctance to go for the punch makes sense. Claws, after all.

That's only after the Sentinel blasts Logan who's injured. Grappling isn't gonna help him here since Superman is both stronger and is more skilled in grappling than him.

Originally posted by Smurph
Cyclops staggering Captain Marvel with an uppercut 👆

Are you saying Cyclops is strong enough to stagger a class 100 character? This just after your whole "more skilled than Batman" rhetoric? Lmao.

abhilegend Prince of All Saiyans

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Captain Marvel isn't as strong as 100 human males though. I'd say she's far stronger.

Superman can't be more skilled than Batman but Cyclops is strong enough to stagger a class 100 character with a punch. Gotta love the double standards lol.

DarkSaint85 Bonified abstract

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman can't be more skilled than Batman but Cyclops is strong enough to stagger a class 100 character with a punch. Gotta love the double standards lol.

I mean.....if the feat was Superman Vs Batman, and Superman won on skills then...sure.

But it's not.

At least Cyclops actually threw down with Cap.

Smurph tu quoqumber

Originally posted by abhilegend
Basis on what exactly?

From an entire career of taking hits from sentinels. From mind-controlled Colossus. From bloodlusted Captain Marvel. Surviving a massive lightning strike from Storm. Nimrod running billions of scenarios and concluding that in every one he was the singularly toughest X-Man.

He's Marvel's child soldier.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, it's impressive on its own without bringing in Earth prime Batman.

Beating Owlman is impressive because of his feats against Batman. Beating the other Batmen is impressive because.... their name is Batman.

You'll notice that I didn't frame the feat as being about Batman - you did:

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman beat three alternate Batmen while being depowered so...

And it makes sense because the feat is about Batman. Superman even starts the fight saying that Bruce has always wanted to know which of them would win an even fight.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's a whole new sentence lol. Nobody's arguing Superman is more skilled than Batman, neither do you need to be as skilled as Batman to beat ****ing cyclops lol.

Ok so to be clear, you were saying "Superman beat three alternate Batmen while depowered" and you're now saying "but that doesn't mean he could actually beat Batman"?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, it's a circular reasoning to negate a feat.

You might notice that I never said the feat is "negated". As far as I can tell, the only people trying to negate feats are you and Carver.

Smurph tu quoqumber

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman can't be more skilled than Batman but Cyclops is strong enough to stagger a class 100 character with a punch. Gotta love the double standards lol.

Wait, so Superman is or isn't more skilled than Batman?

You just said that nobody's arguing Superman is more skilled than Bats, now you're acting like it's unfair that he can't be more skilled than Bats.

I don't care which it is, but you can't have it both ways.