^ What is posting random panels that don't address your mistake supposed to distract from?
I literally posted the panel that shows Orion was still alive when he descended from the Fourth World:
You were wrong. Get over it. Denying it further and further just reveals the utter lack of genuine faith you're approaching this discussion with.
Originally posted by ODG
^ What is posting random panels that don't address your mistake supposed to distract from?I literally posted the panel that shows Orion was still alive when he descended from the Fourth World:
You were wrong. Get over it. Denying it further and further just reveals the utter lack of genuine faith you're approaching this discussion with.
Barry Allen didn't see Orion descending from 4th World, only Darkseid.
You're wrong, as usual.
Originally posted by ODGYou have no proof. Nothing in the comics on panel agrees with you.
Go ahead and handwave everything away with the same premise, "ALE has nothing to do w/ anything because Darkseid is just that powerful and nobody else is." Thing is... that's exactly the conclusion you're arguing for. So it's not an argument. It's your conclusion.I know what your conclusion is. You've repeated several times pretending it's a constructive reply or refutation or rebuttal. But it's just your conclusion repeated over and over again in the face of all of my discourse, questions and criticisms.
If you have no actual argument or proof, then so be it. We both know what that proof is. I don't need to repeat my posts and scans from dozens of posts in the past between you and I, let alone the ones I just reposted for abhib1tch in a parallel thread.
In the comics - Darkseid is ONLY new god whose true form fell on the multiverse.
In the comics - Darkseid’s fall is the ONLY thing ever attributed to the damage to spacetime. Many times over.
In the comics - Antilife is ONLY ever attributed to corruption of mind and soul.
The burden of proof of your position is on you.
Originally posted by ODG
^ You should cry more about what the comics clearly portray on-panel in favor of some off-panel mythologization. Totally doesn't smack of abject denial.At some point, you'll come to realize that you're not arguing with me. You're arguing with the comics.
^ Seems like every step you take away from the actual pages of Final Crisis is in simple service of distracting from what actually happened during Final Crisis. But I mean, ok. Your scan only further serves to beg the simple question I keep posing: where was the multiversal upheaval that should warp existence due to the other New Gods descending/manifesting onto Earth during Final Crisis in the wake of the proverbial war in heaven?
Because there isn't any. You're arguing that Darkseid is so exceptionally powerful due to his own inherently personal self by virtue of being an upper-dimensional New God being that by simply falling, he can drag/warp a multiverse into approximating his own dying carcass. Yet, there are a crap-ton of other New Gods. And none of that multiversal upheaval ensued when they died/descended.
The only difference between Darkseid and all those other New Gods is Darkseid possessed the Anti-Life Equation that makes all existence, him. The same cosmically existential macguffin that Darkseid's been obsessed with throughout his published history. The same ALE featured prominently throughout Final Crisis.
Yet the ALE really has nothing to do with the catastrophe we see in Final Crisis. "Nah, it's really all just Darkseid." Wut?
Originally posted by abhilegendWhy would I say this when that isn't even anything I asserted? Obvious strawman is obvious.
Quick, tell us where Orion descended alongside Darkseid when Barry Allen sees the shadow of Darkseid falling across the multiverse?
Originally posted by JuntaiHow is that my fault? I can expound further but if you cannot admit that Orion was still clearly alive when gasping his last dying breath to Dan Turpin in Final Crisis #1, you're just disregarding on-panel evidence. In which case, constructive discussion has been foreclosed. By you.
You have no proof. Nothing in the comics on panel agrees with you.
Originally posted by JuntaiUntrue. Amply demonstrated by many debates and scans to the contrary.
In the comics - Antilife is ONLY ever attributed to corruption of mind and soul.The burden of proof of your position is on you.
Not sure I appreciate this shifting of the burden of proof. After all, I'm simply contesting your notion that Final Crisis Darkseid was some multiversal being whose possession of "the barely imaginable whole that is the complete Anti-Life Equation" had nearly nothing to do with the events of Final Crisis other than mind-control. A rather wild leap in power scope from his prior depictions. And one that is further contradicted by the current emergence of his multiversal True Form Darkseid self that first re-emerged in Infinite Frontier #0. Again, on-panel. But, whatever. It doesn't matter to you what happens on-panel.
Disappoint. srsly
If you've read Grant Morrison's Supergods(which I highly recommend, btw) you know that he views Darkseid in a completely different light than any other New God. In his eyes, Darkseid represents a final boss/Satan type of villain archetype(with Superman representing a polar opposite/Jesus type of hero archetype.) Point being, it wouldn't exactly be a surprise if he treated Darkseid's 'decent' into the mainstream multiverse differently than he would with any other one of the New Gods... We don't even need to go the "emanations" route, tbh, Morrison is just a huge fangirl.
That said, Darkseid did possess the ALE at the time, so I do understand where ODG is coming from, and it can't really be discounted -- it may have indeed helped attribute to the multiverse getting flushed down the proverbial cosmic toilet.
My personal opinion, however, is that Darkseid's fall(and subsequent transition into a metaphysical singularity at the base of creation) is what triggered the multiversal collapse in and of itself... His exploitation of the ALE once he landed in the 3rd dimension was just him attempting to gain even more control and cause additional collateral damage, imo. Darkseid knew that he was descending into "Hell" and dragging creation with him, so he was trying to warp everything he could on the way down so that he controlled it all. "Darkseid is", as they say.
Just my 2 cents. /shrug
Originally posted by Galan007
If you've read Grant Morrison's Supergods(which I highly recommend, btw) you know that he views Darkseid in a completely different light than any other New God. In his eyes, Darkseid represents a final boss/Satan type of villain archetype(with Superman representing a polar opposite/Jesus type of hero archetype.) Point being, it wouldn't exactly be a surprise if he treated Darkseid's 'decent' into the mainstream multiverse differently than he would with any other one of the New Gods... We don't even need to go the "emanations" route, tbh, Morrison is just a huge fangirl.That said, Darkseid did possess the ALE at the time, so I do understand where ODG is coming from, and it can't really be discounted -- it may have indeed helped attribute to the multiverse getting flushed down the proverbial cosmic toilet.
My personal opinion, however, is that Darkseid's fall(and subsequent transition into a metaphysical singularity at the base of creation) is what triggered the multiversal collapse in and of itself... His exploitation of the ALE once he landed in the 3rd dimension was just him attempting to gain even more control and cause additional collateral damage, imo. Darkseid knew that he was descending into "Hell" and dragging creation with him, so he was trying to warp everything he could on the way down so that he controlled it all. "Darkseid is", as they say.
Just my 2 cents. /shrug
Barry tells Wally that Darkseid is *dragging* the whole Multiverse down as he goes in his falling
https://postimg.cc/LYrT69xQ
Later, the Guardians also say that Darkseid's fall/the singularity causes crakcs throughout all the universe/all space sectors
https://postlmg.cc/JDBNgwRN
John Stewart says they're falling into a hell that everything is Darkseid
https://ibb.co/s56yjRS
Later when the spacetime is completely dragged into the singularity, it says there basically everyhting is Darkseid, or Darkseid *dragged* all of spacetime into a forever pit(it worded as such in later edition)
https://ibb.co/tbxm5KR
https://postimg.cc/VSJnryrx
Edit:
And some secondary source. In DC official website, the Final Crisis 5 solicitation says
*As Darkseid's presence causes reality itself to sicken and the lights to go out across the universe*, as even the Guardians fall, the true power of the evil gods finally reveals itself
https://www.dc.com/comics/final-crisis-2008/final-crisis-5
It's also in this issue the Guardians say Darkseid's fall/the singularity causes crakcs throughout all the universe/all space sectors, and the singularity appears
^ Shaddup.
Originally posted by Galan007Supergods is basically a writer interview in long-form. Distinctly separate from the many DC comics published directly involving Final Crisis. Indeed, any vague allusions to it are more than amply refuted by Grant Morrison's own interviews after Final Crisis's conclusion where he derides Darkseid as being full of himself and compares him to a delusional Hitler. Or the concurrent/post interviews where he extols just how little we readers could conceive what the Anti-Life Equation truly represents.
If you've read Grant Morrison's Supergods(which I highly recommend, btw) you know that he views Darkseid in a completely different light than any other New God. In his eyes, Darkseid represents a final boss/Satan type of villain archetype(with Superman representing a polar opposite/Jesus type of hero archetype.) Point being, it wouldn't exactly be a surprise if he treated Darkseid's 'decent' into the mainstream multiverse differently than he would with any other one of the New Gods... We don't even need to go the "emanations" route, tbh, Morrison is just a huge fangirl.
But I'm not here to refute writer interviews with other writer interviews. That's justifiably banned by actual KMC rules. I'm here to discuss/debate the actual comics.
Originally posted by Galan007Very appreciated. Because I simply do not understand why anybody would argue the true ALE is strictly limited to mind control.
That said, Darkseid did possess the ALE at the time, so I do understand where ODG is coming from, and it can't really be discounted -- it may have indeed helped attribute to the multiverse getting flushed down the proverbial cosmic toilet.
Originally posted by Galan007Reduce it even further:
My personal opinion, however, is that Darkseid's fall(and subsequent transition into a metaphysical singularity at the base of creation) is what triggered the multiversal collapse in and of itself... His exploitation of the ALE once he landed in the 3rd dimension was just him attempting to gain even more control and cause additional collateral damage, imo. Darkseid knew that he was descending into "Hell" and dragging creation with him, so he was trying to warp everything he could on the way down so that he controlled it all. "Darkseid is", as they say.Just my 2 cents. /shrug
(1) Did Darkseid possess an amp during Final Crisis or not? During the war in heaven and after? Yes or no? We both know that answer. So we should agree that Darkseid was amped w/ ALE during Final Crisis.
(2) Do the feats of ALE-amped Darkseid during Final Crisis wildly outstrip anything we've ever seen from Darkseid beforehand? Yes or no? I shall assume we both know the answer. If yes, proceed...
(3) Should we disregard such an amp from being essentially irrelevant to the wildly outstripped feat of warping the DC multiverse into approximating his own form that we see during Final Crisis? Yes or no? As an analogy... when Odinforce Thor performs a feat that could conceivably be within Thor's own power but still wildly outstrips any prior Thor feat, can we really disregard the Odinforce amp as being essentially irrelevant?
I'd like to think I know your answer to that last question. I really really hope so, anyway.
Because I mean, it's actually not even a question. If a character is amped during a comic's storyline, they're amped. On KMC we don't pretend they're not amped and we don't pretend that their feats would've occurred in the absence of said amp. Particularly if such feats are wildly out of step with the prior presentations of said character. At least most of us don't.
This reaction is very basic. So basic it's actually instinctual. Possibly reductive. But it's not wrong or in bad faith. And if a KMC poster wants to argue the amp had nothing to do with a feat, it's that KMC poster's burden to prove otherwise. It's not my burden to disprove it (even though I can). For example, how often have we seen KMC posters pretend IG Thanos "w/o sensory input" performed all his in-fight feats on his own as if Thanos could without the Infinity Gems at his disposal? N1gga plz. Same thing. Final Crisis ALE-amped Darkseid is not an exception to this.
I am happy to discuss this with you because you're not undeniably recalcitrant. You're fully willing to look at it from both sides. Both from above DC vs. Marvel fandom and within DC vs. Marvel fandom.
But fair warning: to me it's obvious. Just so fecking obvious. Now I'll try to be polite about it given I don't recall ever discussing this particular issue with you. But I hope you forgive me if I start losing my patience. Because it just seems so FECKING OBVIOUS to me since 2008.
Even moreso given that we finally have an undeniably on-panel multiversal True Form Darkseid now.
Originally posted by ODG"Disregard from being essentially irrelevant to the wildly outstripped feat..."
[b](3) Should we disregard such an amp from being essentially irrelevant to the wildly outstripped feat of warping the DC multiverse into approximating his own form that we see during Final Crisis? Yes or no? As an analogy... when Odinforce Thor performs a feat that could conceivably be within Thor's own power but still wildly outstrips any prior Thor feat, can we really disregard the Odinforce amp as being essentially irrelevant?[/B]
The negatives upon double negatives make my head spin.
Look... it's obvious what I meant but I'll rephrase for you plebians:
(3) Shouldn't we regard such an amp from being unessentially relevant to the wildly outstripped feat of not warping the DC multiverse into not approximating his own form that we don't see during Final Crisis? Yes, no or no, yes?
And, no. I am not 11 beers in. uhuh
Originally posted by ODG
^ Seems like every step you take away from the actual pages of Final Crisis is in simple service of distracting from what actually happened during Final Crisis. But I mean, ok. Your scan only further serves to beg the simple question I keep posing: where was the multiversal upheaval that should warp existence due to the other New Gods descending/manifesting onto Earth during Final Crisis in the wake of the proverbial war in heaven?
Because no other new God descended from heaven to Earth, only Darkseid did as explicitly shown in the prologue by Barry Allen from speed force.
Because there isn't any. You're arguing that Darkseid is so exceptionally powerful due to his own inherently personal self by virtue of being an upper-dimensional New God being that by simply falling, he can drag/warp a multiverse into approximating his own dying carcass. Yet, there are a crap-ton of other New Gods. And none of that multiversal upheaval ensued when they died/descended.
Because none of the other new gods descended from heaven lol. You refusing on panel evidence is not my problem.
The only difference between Darkseid and all those other New Gods is Darkseid possessed the Anti-Life Equation that makes all existence, him. The same cosmically existential macguffin that Darkseid's been obsessed with throughout his published history. The same ALE featured prominently throughout Final Crisis.
ALE was never alluded to somehow make Darkseid grow big enough to cast his shadow across the multiverse.
Yet the ALE really has nothing to do with the catastrophe we see in Final Crisis. "Nah, it's really all just Darkseid." Wut? Why would I say this when that isn't even anything I asserted?
Originally posted by abhilegend
[B]Anyway, here's all the times it is mentioned in Final Crisis where the damage to multiverse, space time breakdown is directly confirmed to be due to the fall of Darkseid.Literally none of them even allude to ALE playing a part in it.
Obvious strawman is obvious. How is that my fault? I can expound further but if you cannot admit that Orion was still clearly alive when gasping his last dying breath to Dan Turpin in Final Crisis #1, you're just disregarding on-panel evidence.
In which case, constructive discussion has been foreclosed. By you. Untrue. Amply demonstrated by many debates and scans to the contrary.
Nonsense.
Not sure I appreciate this shifting of the burden of proof. After all, I'm simply contesting your notion that Final Crisis Darkseid was some multiversal being whose possession of "the barely imaginable whole that is the complete Anti-Life Equation" had nearly nothing to do with the events of Final Crisis other than mind-control. A rather wild leap in power scope from his prior depictions. And one that is further contradicted by the current emergence of his multiversal True Form Darkseid self that first re-emerged in Infinite Frontier #0. Again, on-panel. But, whatever. It doesn't matter to you what happens on-panel.
Disappoint. srsly [/B]
Your utter refusal to provide even a single proof of ALE causing multiversal destruction is noted. Concession accepted.
Originally posted by ODG
Orion descended from heaven to Earth:I mean, if you cannot admit what actually occurs on-panel, phuck off and leave the actual debate to your betters.
Are you so retarded that you somehow missed the core concept of New Gods only able to project their emanations on 3D world in Final Crisis?
^ Every step you take away from the actual pages of Final Crisis serves as an indictment of your own position of what happened during Final Crisis.
Originally posted by abhilegendThat isn't what is described in this page at all. Just your own desperate projection to avoid that Orion literally only died after he fell to Earth on-panel trying to warn Dan Turpin.
No, he didn't. His emanation did as described in Final Crisis 6.
Originally posted by ODG
^ Every step you take away from the actual pages of Final Crisis serves as an indictment of your own position of what happened during Final Crisis.
Are you suggesting new 52 Darkseid also had ALE to distort space time just like final crisis? Because that would be pretty funny.
That isn't what is described in this page at all. Just your own desperate projection to avoid that Orion literally only died after he fell to Earth on-panel trying to warn Dan Turpin.
Your desperation in refusing to accept that new gods have emanations and can't descend in their full form in 3d world as described in Final Crisis is amusing.
Do you accept that new gods have emanations in 3d world or not?