Orion vs. Thor ( H2H) only

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
THAT'S what I and Galan's egg analogies are talking about.

Press an egg against a car, and the egg is obviously going to shatter LONG before you start to hold/push/restrain the car itself(how is this even debatable, lol?)

...And just to be clear: in this case the egg = a planet, and the car = a universe... And they're both bumrushing you at insane speeds. IOW, that planet/egg(with universe-weight backing it) is going to shatter on impact with anything that is even remotely durable. HOW is it a quantifiable strength feat by any metric?

We've literally saw on panel earth being pushed back which also pushed the universe back. Galan, I saw your reply previously about this (just now). The goal during that scene was to push earth back. Nothing more, nothing less. That's all that was said on panel.

Originally posted by Galan007
Exactly. 👆

Press an egg against a car, and the egg is obviously going to shatter LONG before you start to hold/push/restrain the car itself(how is this even debatable, lol?)

...And just to be clear: in this case the egg = a planet, and the car = a universe... And they're both bumrushing you at insane speeds. IOW, that planet/egg(with universe-weight backing it) is going to shatter on impact with anything that is even remotely durable. HOW is it a quantifiable strength feat by any metric?

agreed. 👆 my only issue was with people seemingly claiming it wasn't a strength feat at all. it was a massive strength feat. just completely impossible to quantify beyond saying hype didn't fail--the planets failed. how much could he have endured? impossible to say. but he held while two planets crumbled. that's unquestionably an absurd strength feat. one of the best on-panel strength feats in marvel history imo /shrug

Originally posted by leonidas
agreed. 👆 my only issue was with people seemingly claiming it wasn't a strength feat at all. it was a massive strength feat. just completely impossible to quantify beyond saying hype didn't fail--the planets failed. how much could he have endured? impossible to say. but he held while two planets crumbled. that's unquestionably an absurd strength feat. one of the best on-panel strength feats in marvel history imo /shrug

It's definitely a strength feat. We can only establish a lower bound - the minimum amount of force required to accomplish the feat. Anything beyond that is unquantifiable.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's a strength feat. The minimum strength required is the minimum force needed to shatter a planet through compression, making it a planetary-level or multi-planetary-level feat.

Originally posted by carver9
We've literally saw on panel earth being pushed back which also pushed the universe back. Galan, I saw your reply previously about this (just now). The goal during that scene was to push earth back. Nothing more, nothing less. That's all that was said on panel.

The egg breaking doesn't mean you pushed the car back, Carvy. What Cap does with the IG =/= what happened with Hype.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The egg breaking doesn't mean you pushed the car back, Carvy. What Cap does with the IG =/= what happened with Hype.

Lol... I know that. The only difference between your analogy and what happened on panel is, Hyperion temporarily stopped the incursion whereas an egg isn't holding back a car, under any circumstances.

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... I know that. The only difference between your analogy and what happened on panel is, Hyperion temporarily stopped the incursion whereas an egg isn't holding back a car, under any circumstances.

Did he stop the incursion? Nothing in the text said he did. He held them apart until they broke.

I held them apart....

....until the eggs broke.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Did he stop the incursion? Nothing in the text said he did. He held them apart until they broke.

I held them apart....

....until the eggs broke.

The planets weren't moving on their own. So he held them and the force that was pushing them apart until the planet gave way. It's literally telling us he held them apart which also includes the force that was pushing the planet. An egg being tied to a car will not be held back because it would crack instantly. The statement of "he held them back" wouldn't be used because nothing was held back.

Originally posted by carver9
The planets weren't moving on their own.

Nor are the eggs.

So he held them and the force that was pushing them apart until the planet gave way.

It's literally telling us he held them apart which also includes the force that was pushing the planet.

An egg being tied to a car will not be held back because it would crack instantly. The statement of "he held them back" wouldn't be used because nothing was held back.

It won't crack instantly. You are literally adding sentences and concepts to what is a very simple sentence.

Hyperion held the planets apart, until they broke.

I held the eggs apart, until they broke.

The comic scene does not say anything about the forces pushing the planets, just like my sentence does not say anything about the cars.

Originally posted by carver9
an egg isn't holding back a car, under any circumstances.

Well, technically, neither are planets holding back the incursion.

So, the planets were being compressed (similar to a golf ball) by the forces until they broke apart. This means Hyperion exerted at least the minimum force required to compress a planet to the point of shattering.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

The comic scene does not say anything about the forces pushing the planets, just like my sentence does not say anything about the cars.

Correct!

Is it a strength feat to some extent? I guess? Is it even remotely quantifiable as such? Not at all.

To recycle DS's analogy:
If I stand in the center of the road, and two semi-trucks(each with an egg taped to the front bumper) are speeding towards me from opposite sides, but I am able to hold up my arms just long enough for the eggs to break when trucks hit me... How much of my OWN physical strength was required to break the eggs, and how much of it was due to the speeding vehicles I was trying to intercept(#Physics)..? Pretty hard to quantify(at all) with the information we were presented in the source material.

tl;dr
It is a durability feat, first and foremost... And a great one. The alleged "strength" required is secondary to that, however.

my issue with that analogy has always been the conflation of the egg/balloon with a planet. eggs and balloons are fragile. they don't require much force to shatter. replace hype with an adamantium wall. a force was pushing the planet into the wall with enough force to obliterate that planet. that would need to be an immense force. now put a planet on each side of him. the planets were being driven by some unknown amount of force. hyperion pushed back on each (says thermodynamics) with a force greater than the planets could withstand--NOT a force equal to what was driving the planets together, but with force greater than each planet could withstand.

two PLANETS failed before he did--seems like it's clearly an immense strength feat to me.

Originally posted by leonidas
my issue with that analogy has always been the conflation of the egg/balloon with a planet. eggs and balloons are fragile. they don't require much force to shatter. replace hype with an adamantium wall. a force was pushing the planet into the wall with enough force to obliterate that planet. that would need to be an immense force. now put a planet on each side of him. the planets were being driven by some unknown amount of force. hyperion pushed back on each (says thermodynamics) with a force greater than the planets could withstand--NOT a force equal to what was driving the planets together, but with force greater than each planet could withstand.

two PLANETS failed before he did--seems like it's clearly an immense strength feat to me.

👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

It's definitely a strength feat... against the planets.

🤦🏿🤦🏿

I don't really know how to make it more clear. If I hold a bar up to the house and push forward, and the bar eventually bends. I didn't push back the house with my strength. I simple bent the bar with my strength using the house as the leverage.

If a planet falls on me and I push it back until the planet breaks, I broke the planet, I didn't hold back the universe. The planet broke when it couldn't resist both me and the universe crashing in on it, right?

Originally posted by leonidas
my issue with that analogy has always been the conflation of the egg/balloon with a planet. eggs and balloons are fragile. they don't require much force to shatter. replace hype with an adamantium wall. a force was pushing the planet into the wall with enough force to obliterate that planet. that would need to be an immense force. now put a planet on each side of him. the planets were being driven by some unknown amount of force. hyperion pushed back on each (says thermodynamics) with a force greater than the planets could withstand--NOT a force equal to what was driving the planets together, but with force greater than each planet could withstand.

two PLANETS failed before he did--seems like it's clearly an immense strength feat to me.

Yes, balloons and eggs are fragile - relative to speeding cars and us. To an ant or fly, they're impossible to break.

Planets seem super durable - but relative to universal forces, they're eggs.

Originally posted by carver9
👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

You're the only one trying to make out Hyperion pushed back universal forces. Reread Leo's post, before agreeing with it lol.

that's true--compared to universal forces they are--but they are still planets, and the comparison being forgotten in the analogy is Hyperion to the planet. using eggs and balloons degrades the feat imo. an egg is fragile compared to you. a planet? not so much. a planetary force compared to almost any superhuman in marvel is...enormous. he exceeded the force threshold required to obliterate two planets.

it's an IMMENSE feat of strength imo.

the whole feat is strange though. it appears at no point that he actually makes direct contact with either planet...? it's weird. we also have no idea how long he held them apart.

so yes. 100% unquantifiable. but 100% an IMMENSE strength feat imo.

Originally posted by leonidas
that's true--compared to universal forces they are--but they are still planets, and the comparison being forgotten in the analogy is Hyperion to the planet. using eggs and balloons degrades the feat imo. an egg is fragile compared to you. a planet? not so much. a planetary force compared to almost any superhuman in marvel is...enormous. he exceeded the force threshold required to obliterate two planets.

it's an IMMENSE feat of strength imo.

the whole feat is strange though. it appears at no point that he actually makes direct contact with either planet...? it's weird. we also have no idea how long he held them apart.

so yes. 100% unquantifiable. but 100% an IMMENSE strength feat imo.

OK. Its immense as a strength feat.

Its not universal level, which is exponentially more immense. At THOSE levels, its waaaay more of a durability feat, and a verrry distant second (relatively) a strength feat /shrug.

And definitely not a feat where he pushes universes back.

no of course not. it doesn't make sense. you'd have to suppose some metaphysical link between the planet and the universe which is never stated or--unless you REALLY want to reach--implied.