Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't see how anyone can argue Elektra has supersonic reflexes without showing a single supersonic speed feat for her.
i haven't really argued her reflexes are definitively super sonic. i think there is evidence to support the stance but i don't really care one way or the other. the issue i had was with the claim that bats--demonstrating ftl reflexes--was somehow NOT pis or that it can somehow be attributed to.....an invisible assist from bat mite.
i'm with jun--dd and elektra could both score wins against bats. but he's taking the clear majority over both imo.
Originally posted by Senor Cagenever let anything get in the way of a good story.
It's funny sometimes because when Batman is pissed, most fighters with enhanced whatever or super powered human will flat out lose. But on some occasions, he'll have a problem with someone who he should clearly beat. The curse of a character who has tons of appearances.
Originally posted by leonidas
i haven't really argued her reflexes are definitively super sonic. i think there is evidence to support the stance but i don't really care one way or the other. the issue i had was with the claim that bats--demonstrating ftl reflexes--was somehow NOT pis or that it can somehow be attributed to.....an invisible assist from bat mite.i'm with jun--dd and elektra could both score wins against bats. but he's taking the clear majority over both imo.
I mean, what else would the in-universe explanation for his multiple good showings be?
When WW - who poops all over these guys in terms of blocking bullets - can fail, despite amps and being bloodlusted, to even KO an injured Batman in his street clothes (so keeping in line with the thread), what's the in-universe explanation?
Same WW, despite being on the superhero equivalent of crack, was unable to take Batman out in a later fight.
You know Batman's multiple showings. I mean, you even said this:
Originally posted by leonidas
😂yeah, i've said this before but it could use some consideration here--if something happens over and over (ie, consistently) then it should no longer be considered PIS. imo. batman is a great example, as is logan. both have made entire careers out of battling people well above their tiers, and each does so with regularity. if it happens over and over, i don't like to label it PIS because to do so would render almost ALL their stories PIS. to me that makes no sense--how can we just discount so many showings? if it happens on a consistent basis, i think that should override the definition of pis. imo.
And:
Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, batman is one of those characters that cannot be rationalized away. we either agree that everything he does is pis, or we say it all happens so often that we....redefine pis as it relates to him. despite dc's stance that he is purely human, clearly he is much more than that. other characters have similar standings (cap to an extent, supermartial artists, logan to a degree) but no one approaches the level of batman in this regard. we just take batman at what we see. the dude can be invisible to superman ffs. people will rationalize his feats however they want, but there are so many impossible ones, it creates a sense of logic-conflict no matter HOW you try and view it. he's batman and he's like no other character, really. /shrug
I mean... we can either just shrug and say 'Batman wins, because he is Batman' and make a special exemption from PIS just for him, or we rationalise it with an actual canon scan where Batmite and Mxy watch over and guard their pet guys. It isn't even as if I made that scan up.
It just seems strange:
'Batman can hide from Superman' - Yes.
'Batman can outreact HV' - No.
“Batman can sneak into Spectre’s Sanctuary unnoticed.” - Yes
Anyways, there’s multiple scans of Bruce slapping or punching bullets out of the air, as well as an issue where he’s dodging gunfire explaining that he perceives them so slowly he feels that he could pluck them out of the air.
Originally posted by h1a8Both, in a sense. I primarily base it on consistency of feats but not without regard to the other information we have about the character.
Do you base PIS on consistency (i.e., outlier feats) or on the idea that ordinary humans shouldn't be capable of certain types of feats?
Not that I think any of these characters are ordinary humans.
Originally posted by Juntai"almost feel, but"
“Batman can sneak into Spectre’s Sanctuary unnoticed.” - YesAnyways, there’s multiple scans of Bruce slapping or punching bullets out of the air, as well as an issue where he’s dodging gunfire explaining that he perceives them so slowly he feels that he could pluck them out of the air.
So no, he doesn't literally feel like he could pluck them out of the air.
I'm curious about these multiple scans of him slapping and punching bullets out of the air though?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, what else would the in-universe explanation for his multiple good showings be?When WW - who poops all over these guys in terms of blocking bullets - can fail, despite amps and being bloodlusted, to even KO an injured Batman in his street clothes (so keeping in line with the thread), what's the in-universe explanation?
Same WW, despite being on the superhero equivalent of crack, was unable to take Batman out in a later fight.
You know Batman's multiple showings. I mean, you even said this:
And:
I mean... we can either just shrug and say 'Batman wins, because he is Batman' and make a special exemption from PIS just for him, or we rationalise it with an actual canon scan where Batmite and Mxy watch over and guard their pet guys. It isn't even as if I made that scan up.
It just seems strange:
'Batman can hide from Superman' - Yes.
'Batman can outreact HV' - No.
i also said there are others that do similar things. and i'd MUCH rather attribute his feats to omg bat moments to some batman mystique than some outside source for which there is zero in-the-moment-proof. you've diminshed him to the point where all his feats are meaningless. congrats. i mean hiding from superman is a world away from somehow accepting he has ftl reflexes in my book. so while both are pis saying he can react as fast as flash and waving it aside and saying the imp did it is ludicrous to me since there is no evidence anywhere the imp played a role.
so every time he does something 'omg that's so batman' it's because of the imp? when he hit the baseball the imp for some reason felt he needed to chime in? congrats, you've attributed everything batman has ever done to the imp. so you think batman is actually able to beat everyone below an imp? why bother putting him in a match--he should be relegated to the high cosmic tier because if he's in danger of losing the imp saves him. doesn't even require proof beyond your fave scan lol it's a great stance you take since it can never be argued against. any time he was in trouble or shows less than ftl reflexes it's because he was never REALLY in danger to begin with or the imp would have saved him 😂 should save you time posting any more of batman's (the imp's ) feats in a thread--all you need to say is the imp saves him. the cool inventions? meaningless. imp inspired. leaps of logic? you mean leaps of imp logic?
allowing for a few cool bat moments is NOT the same as calling into question every single one of his feats because...imp. it's not even close man. c'mon.
Originally posted by leonidas
i also said there are others that do similar things. and i'd MUCH rather attribute his feats to omg bat moments to some batman mystique than some outside source for which there is zero in-the-moment-proof. you've diminshed him to the point where all his feats are meaningless. congrats. i mean hiding from superman is a world away from somehow accepting he has ftl reflexes in my book. so while both are pis saying he can react as fast as flash and waving it aside and saying the imp did it is ludicrous to me since there is no evidence anywhere the imp played a role.so every time he does something 'omg that's so batman' it's because of the imp? when he hit the baseball the imp for some reason felt he needed to chime in? congrats, you've attributed everything batman has ever done to the imp. so you think batman is actually able to beat everyone below an imp? why bother putting him in a match--he should be relegated to the high cosmic tier because if he's in danger of losing the imp saves him. doesn't even require proof beyond your fave scan lol it's a great stance you take since it can never be argued against. any time he was in trouble or shows less than ftl reflexes it's because he was never REALLY in danger to begin with or the imp would have saved him 😂 should save you time posting any more of batman's (the imp's ) feats in a thread--all you need to say is the imp saves him. the cool inventions? meaningless. imp inspired. leaps of logic? you mean leaps of imp logic?
allowing for a few cool bat moments is NOT the same as calling into question every single one of his feats because...imp. it's not even close man. c'mon.
Then it just becomes arbitrary, right? Where do we draw the line?
"This is a cool Bats moment - he snuck past Superman! So cool!"
"This is PIS - he outreacted HV! So uncool!"
It then rapidly becomes bias. Some PIS moments are cool and allowed, some PIS moments are uncool and not allowed.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Those feats aren't similar at all though?
Then it just becomes arbitrary, right? Where do we draw the line?"This is a cool Bats moment - he snuck past Superman! So cool!"
"This is PIS - he outreacted HV! So uncool!"It then rapidly becomes bias. Some PIS moments are cool and allowed, some PIS moments are uncool and not allowed.
Originally posted by SmurphI think drawing arbitrary lines on what feats should count, and what should not is not quite the way to discuss this. Just because Batman dodging HV after it's fired is higher on a scale of absurdity than her being supersonic, it doesn't mean one gets to say that her counts while his does not. In essence, by doing this, you're creating a framework within which you can dismiss feats that surpasses hers. You could as well just say that Batman is only allowed feats sub-mach 1.5 [or any arbitrary cut off], anything above that is PIS, and proclaim that "non PIS feats Elektra is faster", you know what I mean?
There's no "having it both ways". Batman cannot move at speeds comparable to heat vision. Elektra can react within the span of point blank gunfire. There's no contradiction there.
^ I agree that arbitrariness is not the way to go, but I don't think there's any connection between his feats and hers. His is clearly PIS, but there is no logical link that requires hers to be. We've seen her do the bullet feat multiple times, we know her stats are magically amped, and she's an entirely different character than Batman.
It's not arbitrary to look at Elektra's feats and determine what's PIS, and separately do the same with Batman. They're separate logical exercises.
Originally posted by SmurphIf she weren't magical amped, would you accept her feat?
^ I agree that arbitrariness is not the way to go, but I don't think there's any connection between his feats and hers. His is clearly PIS, but there is no logical link that requires hers to be. We've seen her do the bullet feat multiple times, we know her stats are magically amped, and she's an entirely different character than Batman.It's not arbitrary to look at Elektra's feats and determine what's PIS, and separately do the same with Batman. They're separate logical exercises.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I mean, I don't care if the hiding-from-Superman thing is PIS or not, since it all seems beside the point at hand. But much like the Batman/Elektra speed argument, I don't think it's arbitrary that one is PIS and the other isn't.
They are if you just believe in yourself.
Whenever this topic comes up the discussion quickly spirals into these slippery slope arguments, which always suffer from the slippery slope fallacy.
The answer is that each feat should be assessed separately, on the facts relevant to the feat and character. We don't need one inflexible and universally applicable rule that pre-defines PIS in all contexts, because everything really turns on the facts of each feat.
Originally posted by PhilosophíaIt depends what I knew about the character.
If she weren't magical amped, would you accept her feat?
If someone like Kate Bishop did the same feat once, I might have trouble swallowing it.
If someone like Shiva did it (especially at the same frequency) I think I would accept it without needing to verify that she's magically amped.
To that point, I would accept the same feats at the same frequency from Batman because it's not such an outlier for the character that it would reek of PIS to me. Ie, see all the feats DS posted establishing that Batman (within street level terms) is certainly depicted as fast.
My point has just been that outside of a couple PIS moments, Elektra seems marginally faster.
Originally posted by SmurphThe reason why I'm asking is, if you'd accept it from Shiva [or any non-amped character], then there would be no need for magical amp qualifier [and we also know there's a shitload of non-amped characters bullet timing in the first place, too]. And from that would come my next question, which is how high do you think a feat from Batman could go, before you consider it PIS? Because if you'd be drawing the line at bullet-timing for what is PIS and not PIS [and I'm not saying you are], then then there's no way for Elektra to be surpassed within that framework without stepping into the PIS territory.
It depends what I knew about the character.If someone like Kate Bishop did the same feat once, I might have trouble swallowing it.
If someone like Shiva did it (especially at the same frequency) I think I would accept it without needing to verify that she's magically amped.
To that point, I would accept the same feats at the same frequency from Batman because it's not such an outlier for the character that it would reek of PIS to me. Ie, see all the feats DS posted establishing that Batman (within street level terms) is certainly depicted as fast.
My point has just been that outside of a couple PIS moments, Elektra seems marginally faster.
I don't have an answer to that question because it seems impossible to answer in a vacuum. Like I said, I think each feat should be assessed in its own context.
Is there an on-the-line feat for a character like Bats that you're thinking of? I don't think moving at the speed of HV (or close to) is anywhere remotely near "the line".