Apoc vs Thanos

Originally posted by h1a8
So you're saying SW holding Thanos in the air for an extended period is no different from Apoc using TK to blow his opponents away through the air?

And I'm the one using clown tactics?

If Apoc can lift, move and hold thousands of objects through the air simultaneously, like he did when assembling a city brick by brick, he can certainly, lift, move and/or hold Thanos if he wants. He's not a stupid character, the opposite actually. Your arguments are ridiculous.

Correct, you're the clown 👆

Originally posted by Robtard
If Apoc can lift, move and hold thousands of objects through the air simultaneously, like he did when assembling a city brick by brick, he can certainly, lift, move and/or hold Thanos if he wants. He's not a stupid character, the opposite actually. Your arguments are ridiculous.

Correct, you're the clown 👆

The argument is whether he would, not whether he could.
Keep up!

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I'm sorry h1, but in this case, without the Stones, Thanos is literally nothing more than a tactical Hulk with a sword, and Apoc has the feats to deal with far worse, because it took some really insane levels of bullsh!t to down him permanently.

Originally posted by 9jaboy
Based on what?
Who did he crush with Tk even half as durable as Thanos that suggests he would do the same to Thanos?

SW destroyed a freaking infinity stone. And even destroyed Thanos blade .which said blade is superior to Cap's shield.

Best Apoc can hope for is a stalemate if he can keep Thanos from getting in close.

I was referring more to lifting Thanos helplessly in the air.

That said does SW have a TK feat as good as putting together a Pyramid?

He's not destroyed an Infinity Stone, and he's not destroyed Cap's shield. Could be because he did not encounter those things (or anything similar).

That said Magento can manipulate Adamantium and Apoc's TK seemed easily on par with Magneto's control over metal. The MCU seems to suggest Adamantium is stronger than Vibranium (i.e. Cap's shield), though tbf you could argue that I'm crossing timelines and universes with that one, although they are getting more and more merged into the current MCU.

If we're just talking raw power then I'll add his shields to his TK, and then for sure Apoc seems stronger than SW in Endgame, and that's still before including any of his other abilities.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
If we're just talking raw power then I'll add his shields to his TK, and then for sure Apoc seems stronger than SW in Endgame, and that's still before including any of his other abilities.

^ To clarify his shields seem to be an extension of his TK abilities.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero

I'm sorry h1, but in this case, without the Stones, Thanos is literally nothing more than a tactical Hulk with a sword, and Apoc has the feats to deal with far worse, because it took some really insane levels of bullsh!t to down him permanently.

We all know Apoc's feats. Thanos has a chance to win due to Apoc's in-character limitations. If this were a scenario with member-controlled characters, there's no way Apoc would lose - but we're not debating power sets.

I can see the fight ending in a stalemate if Apocalypse keeps his distance the entire time. But how likely is that? It's also unclear whether his tk is strong enough to actually hurt Thanos. Thanos tanked blows from an enraged Hulk, endured over three seconds of sustained lightning (which far exceeds a standard lightning strike), and took hits from both Thor and Captain Marvel without showing damage. He's far more powerful than Ronan and was described as the most powerful being in the universe. Based on feats, we know how strong these characters are. This is by no means an easy quick win for Apoc.

Originally posted by h1a8
We all know Apoc's feats. Thanos has a chance to win due to Apoc's in-character limitations. If this were a scenario with member-controlled characters, there's no way Apoc would lose - but we're not debating power sets.

I can see the fight ending in a stalemate if Apocalypse keeps his distance the entire time. But how likely is that? It's also unclear whether his tk is strong enough to actually hurt Thanos. Thanos tanked blows from an enraged Hulk, endured over three seconds of sustained lightning (which far exceeds a standard lightning strike), and took hits from both Thor and Captain Marvel without showing damage. He's far more powerful than Ronan and was described as the most powerful being in the universe. Based on feats, we know how strong these characters are. This is by no means an easy quick win for Apoc.

Why are you not debating powerset, H1 (femtoseconds)?

Originally posted by h1a8
We all know Apoc's feats. Thanos has a chance to win due to Apoc's in-character limitations. If this were a scenario with member-controlled characters, there's no way Apoc would lose - but we're not debating power sets.

I can see the fight ending in a stalemate if Apocalypse keeps his distance the entire time. But how likely is that? It's also unclear whether his tk is strong enough to actually hurt Thanos. Thanos tanked blows from an enraged Hulk, endured over three seconds of sustained lightning (which far exceeds a standard lightning strike), and took hits from both Thor and Captain Marvel without showing damage. He's far more powerful than Ronan and was described as the most powerful being in the universe. Based on feats, we know how strong these characters are. This is by no means an easy quick win for Apoc.

Given that physical durability doesn't mean a thing against matter manipulation, even in the slightest, how do you state that Thanos has any form of resistance to being reduced to sand, or fused into the ground? Thanos has never tanked anything of the kind before, and the one time he was on the recieving end of such a technique (Tony's snap) he folded as easily as anyone else did. Also, I do not understand why it would be out of character for Apoc to do this, considering when faced with opponents he definitely wanted to kill (The humans who were going to beat the shit out of Storm, or the workers Eric was going to murk in the steel mill) he simply did it. and near effortlessly, without too much time either, especially in the steel will workers case, he reduced the entire factory full of em near instantly.

Originally posted by h1a8

I can see the fight ending in a stalemate if Apocalypse keeps his distance the entire time. But how likely is that? It's also unclear whether his tk is strong enough to actually hurt Thanos. Thanos tanked blows from an enraged Hulk, endured over three seconds of sustained lightning (which far exceeds a standard lightning strike), and took hits from both Thor and Captain Marvel without showing damage. He's far more powerful than Ronan and was described as the most powerful being in the universe. Based on feats, we know how strong these characters are. This is by no means an easy quick win for Apoc.

Apoc took 8 full powered speed punches from Quicksilver. So he's not some physical mook. Not to mention insane TK defences tanking full on attacks from Magneto, Storm and Cyclops.

He also has instantaneous healing abilities if he does get hit (Mystique slit his throat, which healed right away).

So that's just a physical fight with TK. But we all understand Thanos has shown nothing to suggest he wouldn't just get transmutated.

Originally posted by carver9
Why are you not debating powerset, H1 (femtoseconds)?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Given that physical durability doesn't mean a thing against matter manipulation, even in the slightest, how do you state that Thanos has any form of resistance to being reduced to sand, or fused into the ground? Thanos has never tanked anything of the kind before, and the one time he was on the recieving end of such a technique (Tony's snap) he folded as easily as anyone else did. Also, I do not understand why it would be out of character for Apoc to do this, considering when faced with opponents he definitely wanted to kill (The humans who were going to beat the shit out of Storm, or the workers Eric was going to murk in the steel mill) he simply did it. and near effortlessly, without too much time either, especially in the steel will workers case, he reduced the entire factory full of em near instantly.

I guess you missed these:

Originally posted by h1a8
Thanos inherently has resistance to matter transmutation. The standard rule is that the more durable a being or object is, the more resistant it is to matter manipulation.

You need to prove that Apoc can transmute someone as durable as Thanos.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's the status quo: the more durable something is, the harder it is to manipulate its structure. That's not only a scientific fact but also consistently shown throughout comics - examples exist where highly durable objects and beings resist matter manipulation to some degree.

Now, consider the alternative.
If that weren't the case, in the comics, Surfer would just beat anyone - Thanos, Thor, Galactus, Odin, Runner - by simply turning them into a table. But you never see anyone seriously arguing that.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Apoc took 8 full powered speed punches from Quicksilver. So he's not some physical mook. Not to mention insane TK defences tanking full on attacks from Magneto, Storm and Cyclops.

He also has instantaneous healing abilities if he does get hit (Mystique slit his throat, which healed right away).

So that's just a physical fight with TK. But we all understand Thanos has shown nothing to suggest he wouldn't just get transmutated.

I'm not saying Thanos will win, but he does have a chance, even if it's small. His durability is sufficient to prolong the fight long enough to give him that chance.

Originally posted by h1a8
The argument is whether he would, not whether he could.
Keep up!

Prove Apoc wouldn't, prove he's too stupid to not use his abilities in a manner he's already shown. Go, clown!

Originally posted by h1a8
We all know Apoc's feats. Thanos has a chance to win due to Apoc's in-character limitations. If this were a scenario with member-controlled characters, there's no way Apoc would lose - but we're not debating power sets.

So again you have to mentally gimp Apoc for Thanos to have a chance. Of course 😂

Originally posted by h1a8
I can see the fight ending in a stalemate if Apocalypse keeps his distance the entire time. But how likely is that?

It's most certainly not ending in a stalemate and of course he can keep his distance. He's A PHUCKING TELEKINETIC😐

Originally posted by h1a8
IIt's also unclear whether his tk is strong enough to actually hurt Thanos. Thanos tanked blows from an enraged Hulk, endured over three seconds of sustained lightning (which far exceeds a standard lightning strike), and took hits from both Thor and Captain Marvel without showing damage. He's far more powerful than Ronan and was described as the most powerful being in the universe. Based on feats, we know how strong these characters are. This is by no means an easy quick win for Apoc.

Literally all of those feats and statements (besides maybe the Hulk feat) were because he had the Gauntlet. Using the "most powerful being in the universe" quote to describe his innate powers without the gauntlet is hilarious misrepresentation and I'm surprised that you're so desperate that you had the audacity to say such grade A bullshit 😂😭🤣

Originally posted by Robtard
Prove Apoc wouldn't, prove he's too stupid to not use his abilities in a manner he's already shown. Go, clown!

You're creating a straw man. No one is arguing that he wouldn't use his abilities in ways he's already shown. You claimed he would use them in a way he hasn't demonstrated - one that doesn't align with his mindset, creativity, or tendencies. Apoc has shown a propensity for matter manipulation, using telekinesis to throw opponents, etc., but not for suspending someone in the air indefinitely like SW did.

Even if he did suspend Thanos, that alone wouldn't win the fight. He still has to knock out or kill him - and if he's capable of doing that, he WOULD attempt to do it without needing to hold Thanos in the air indefinitely first.

Originally posted by Lestov16

So again you have to mentally gimp Apoc for Thanos to have a chance. Of course 😂

It's most certainly not ending in a stalemate and [b]of course he can keep his distance. He's A PHUCKING TELEKINETIC😐

Literally all of those feats and statements (besides maybe the Hulk feat) were because he had the Gauntlet. Using the "most powerful being in the universe" quote to describe his innate powers without the gauntlet is hilarious misrepresentation and I'm surprised that you're so desperate that you had the audacity to say such grade A bullshit 😂😭🤣 [/B]

Simply being a telekinetic doesn't guarantee a win if you can't actually harm or damage your opponent with that ability.

Originally posted by h1a8
I guess you missed these:

Thats not even remotely how that works. You stating it is the status quo doesn't make it any more true than it was before you said it. What you've just demonstrated is a classic Ad Populum logical fallacy.

"The ad populum fallacy, also known as the bandwagon fallacy or appeal to popularity, is a logical error in reasoning where someone claims something is true simply because many people believe it. It essentially argues that if something is popular, it must be valid or right."

Originally posted by h1a8
You're creating a straw man. No one is arguing that he wouldn't use his abilities in ways he's already shown. You claimed he would use them in a way he hasn't demonstrated - one that doesn't align with his mindset, creativity, or tendencies. Apoc has shown a propensity for matter manipulation, using telekinesis to throw opponents, etc., but not for suspending someone in the air indefinitely like SW did.

Even if he did suspend Thanos, that alone wouldn't win the fight. He still has to knock out or kill him - and if he's capable of doing that, he WOULD attempt to do it without needing to hold Thanos in the air indefinitely first.

Wanda didn't hold him indefinitely. She was actively ripping off his armor and crushing him, which is why he had his ship open fire to get him free. And Wanda's best TK feat is not near Apoc's so he can easily do the same.

Originally posted by h1a8
Thanos is vastly more powerful than Quicksilver,

Is he? Not sure. But given he wasn't hurt at all by QS, is pretty noteworthy. A QS who was clearly going all out, and landed 8 all out punches.

Originally posted by h1a8
You're creating a straw man. No one is arguing that he wouldn't use his abilities in ways he's already shown. You claimed he would use them in a way he hasn't demonstrated - one that doesn't align with his mindset, creativity, or tendencies. Apoc has shown a propensity for matter manipulation, using telekinesis to throw opponents, etc., but not for suspending someone in the air indefinitely like SW did.

Even if he did suspend Thanos, that alone wouldn't win the fight. He still has to knock out or kill him - and if he's capable of doing that, he WOULD attempt to do it without needing to hold Thanos in the air indefinitely first.

He's used his powers in many different ways depending on the opponent. Example Quicksilver.

He uses matter manip, because he can, it's the simplest way for a win.

But his TK shields were pretty OP. And he can take a punch (Quicksilver), and he has instantaneous healing abilities.

You're just gimping Apoc to give Thanos a chance. It's over.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Thats not even remotely how that works. You stating it is the status quo doesn't make it any more true than it was before you said it. What you've just demonstrated is a classic Ad Populum logical fallacy.

You claimed that beings with matter manipulation can affect any material, regardless of its durability.

Let's examine this from three perspectives:

1. Statistical:
The null hypothesis - the status quo - is the opposite of your claim: that beings cannot necessarily manipulate all matter regardless of durability. To reject this, you must provide evidence that reaches the level of statistical significance.

2. Logical:
Your claim is a universal statement. As such, a single counterexample is sufficient to disprove it. Numerous examples exist of characters resisting matter manipulation due to high durability - Superman, for instance, has resisted such attempts.

3. Scientific:
Stronger materials require more force to break their molecular bonds. For Apoc to bypass the durability of any being or object, he would need to exert unlimited force to overcome all types of molecular structures, even fictional ones.

Originally posted by KingD19
Wanda didn't hold him indefinitely. She was actively ripping off his armor and crushing him, which is why he had his ship open fire to get him free. And Wanda's best TK feat is not near Apoc's so he can easily do the same.

If that isn't clear, then let me rephrase: Apoc has never suspended anything in the air in one spot for more than one second. Is that better?