Besides Ebony Maw doesn't have anywhere near the versatility that Apocalypse does. Or the raw power.
Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
It's been a while since I watched X-Men: Apocalypse, but wasn't part of the plot that Apocalypse wanted Xavier exactly because he couldn't do what Xavier does telepathically and wanted to transfer his consciousness into Xavier's body to get said powers?Hell, in this clip, he outright states it. He can defend his mind and others from telepathy, but he doesn't have the ability to enter and control the minds of others himself.
Ah yes you're correct.
Like tkitna said, it's not the easiest movie to rewatch, but still McAvoy and Fassbender save it IMO. Quicksilver helps as well.
Originally posted by NemeBroI was referring to a forum fight, where we use feats. It's not enough to say who wins but HOW.
Ebony Maw would loses to Thanos because they exist within the same narrative and narratively Thanos is superior.Thanos gets no such luxury in a cross-verse battle like this.
He gets match-up diffed and to top it off is less conventionally powerful.
Ebony Maw's telekinesis is limited to inanimate objects aside from himself. And nothing he did was on a level where it would hurt or stop Thanos. Even Thor was already massively weakened by Thanos before Ebony Maw shackled him.
That's like comparing Jessica Jones and Juggernaut in super strength. Yeah they both have it, but there's a clear level difference, and it's not close. At all.
Originally posted by KingD19
Ebony Maw's telekinesis is limited to inanimate objects aside from himself. And nothing he did was on a level where it would hurt or stop Thanos. Even Thor was already massively weakened by Thanos before Ebony Maw shackled him.That's like comparing Jessica Jones and Juggernaut in super strength. Yeah they both have it, but there's a clear level difference, and it's not close. At all.
I'm not sure if Ebony Maw can't control animate matter. I mean, he can control himself, and at the very least, he can lift someone through their armor or clothing, like he did with Iron Man.
I'd say neither of them can hurt Thanos with their telekinesis unless they use a very durable and sharp object to do so, like Thanos' sword, for example. That said, Apocalypse may have more raw power but Maw has more precision and strategy.
Originally posted by h1a8
I'm not sure if Ebony Maw can't control animate matter. I mean, he can control himself, and at the very least, he can lift someone through their armor or clothing, like he did with Iron Man.I'd say neither of them can hurt Thanos with their telekinesis unless they use a very durable and sharp object to do so, like Thanos' sword, for example. That said, Apocalypse may have more raw power but Maw has more precision and strategy.
Maw was never shown manipulating organic/living material. Only inanimate. Aside from himself as I mentioned, which considering he tossed Cull Obsidian aside and tossed Tony, he probably has metal or inorganic materials in his clothing to move himself. Or the only organic matter he can affect is himself.
And Apocalypse absolutely has more precision.
Building a pyramid brick by brick in seconds surpasses anything Maw did.
When did Maw directly toss Tony? Not saying it didn't happen, but the only instance I recall was when Maw launched pieces of concrete and debris with Iron Man on top of it, while Tony was talking to Bruce about his suit. At the 12 second mark here:
Maw's powers were very inconsistent though. For example, in Endgame, he couldn't even directly lift the Infinity Gauntlet, and had to use rocks to lift it.
Originally posted by h1a8
1. If the rule of logic holds true - that a matter manipulator can manipulate anything and anyone without specific resistance feats - then it applies across all mediums. Comics are just one example. Arguing that this isn't comics is irrelevant; we're discussing logic and reasoning, which are universal.2. It doesn't matter because you don't get to make less logical than mine exceptions to your rules about resistance to matter manipulation. More durable beings are inherently more resistant than less durable ones unless stated or shown otherwise. That's the standard. Assuming that a being who can manipulate paper can also manipulate a nearly indestructible material is absurd.
3. Thanos is vastly more durable than the pyramids, many times over. The pyramids are just sand and stone - it's not even close. A fighter jet could demolish a pyramid with ease, but it wouldn't leave a scratch on Thanos.
4. The movie contradicts your argument at the end. Re-watch the scene where Apocalypse dies. Regardless, Apocalypse wouldn't be able to manipulate Thanos in the first place.
Matter Manipulation literally negates durability. Also, I'm pretty sure if MCU Thanos had an entire skyscraper dropped him, he wouldn't be brushing it off like lint. Is the glass and steel that is used to construct skyscrapers stronger than Thanos? No. Is the combined mass of a couple hundred thousands of tons of glass and steel enough to hurt Thanos? Probably. And that's one skyscraper. IIRC, Apoc converted the entire downtown section of a city at least to build his new Pyramid. Apoc has TK on both macroscopic and microscopic levels and unless Thanos specifically has some organic, tech, or magical quantum immutability defense, which none of his showings say he does, ESPECIALLY without the Infinity Gauntlet, then Thanos has no defense against Apoc TKing him into the core of the Earth or transmuting his heart into a marble brick.
Originally posted by h1a8I'd say neither of them can hurt Thanos with their telekinesis unless they use a very durable and sharp object to do so, like Thanos' sword, for example.
He probably could use his own sword against him.
Just with his TK he should give Thanos the same treatment SW gave him in EndGame.
Originally posted by h1a8
That said, Apocalypse may have more raw power but Maw has more precision and strategy.
Apoc absolutely has more raw power and precision going by on screen feats.
And that's before we consider all his other abilities (shields, matter manipulation, even teleportation).
Originally posted by Darth Thor
He probably could use his own sword against him.Just with his TK he should give Thanos the same treatment SW gave him in EndGame.
Apoc absolutely has more raw power and precision going by on screen feats.
And that's before we consider all his other abilities (shields, matter manipulation, even teleportation).
Precision and strategy go to Maw.
SW was able to break Thanos' sword, whereas Apoc has no feats on that level.
He might be able to suspend Thanos in the air, but he isn't damaging him at all.
Originally posted by h1a8
Precision and strategy go to Maw.
SW was able to break Thanos' sword, whereas Apoc has no feats on that level.
He might be able to suspend Thanos in the air, but he isn't damaging him at all.
So you're going to ignore the feats that Place Apoc solidly above Maw in both precision(assembling a pyramid on the fly and disassembling a city to reassemble into a pyramid) and strategy(using Cerebro to cripple Earth's nuclear defenses, manipulating Magneto, Storm, Angel, etc...)
Maw couldn't even stop the drill bits he created when Strange/Wong shot them back at him.
And ignore that he has city-level TK and matter manipulation.
Originally posted by Lestov16
Matter Manipulation literally negates durability. Also, I'm pretty sure if MCU Thanos had an entire skyscraper dropped him, he wouldn't be brushing it off like lint. Is the glass and steel that is used to construct skyscrapers stronger than Thanos? No. Is the [b] combined mass of a couple hundred thousands of tons of glass and steel enough to hurt Thanos? Probably. And that's one skyscraper. IIRC, Apoc converted the entire downtown section of a city at least to build his new Pyramid. Apoc has TK on both macroscopic and microscopic levels and unless Thanos specifically has some organic, tech, or magical quantum immutability defense, which none of his showings say he does, ESPECIALLY without the Infinity Gauntlet, then Thanos has no defense against Apoc TKing him into the core of the Earth or transmuting his heart into a marble brick. [/B]
Matter manipulation doesn't bypass sufficient durability. The manipulator's power must exceed the target's durability to be effective. That's why many beings across various mediums resist matter manipulation purely through their high durability.
Otherwise, characters like Surfer would easily defeat anyone (Odin, Thor, Galactus, Knull, etc.) with matter manipulation alone.
Where is Apoc supposed to get a skyscraper from?
What is Thanos doing in the meantime while Apoc slowly lifts and drops a skyscraper on him?
This isn't member-controlled characters. Characters fight in character, using their own creativity and natural tendencies.
You not only have to prove that Apoc is capable of doing something but also that he would think of it and choose to do it in character.
Originally posted by KingD19
So you're going to ignore the feats that Place Apoc solidly above Maw in both precision(assembling a pyramid on the fly and disassembling a city to reassemble into a pyramid) and strategy(using Cerebro to cripple Earth's nuclear defenses, manipulating Magneto, Storm, Angel, etc...)Maw couldn't even stop the drill bits he created when Strange/Wong shot them back at him.
And ignore that he has city-level TK and matter manipulation.
Doctor Strange opened a portal to position the bits behind Maw.
Anyway, Apoc has more raw power with his TK - that's clear. But Maw excels in quick thinking and battlefield creativity. He's more crafty and inventive in combat.
Lol at city-level TK - it's more like small-town-level TK.
Originally posted by TheVaultDwellerYou are correct. He used the ground to lift Tony. I stand corrected. Well I agree, very inconsistent.
When did Maw directly toss Tony? Not saying it didn't happen, but the only instance I recall was when Maw launched pieces of concrete and debris with Iron Man on top of it, while Tony was talking to Bruce about his suit. At the 12 second mark here:Maw's powers were very inconsistent though. For example, in Endgame, he couldn't even directly lift the Infinity Gauntlet, and had to use rocks to lift it.
Originally posted by h1a8
I was referring more to quick thinking. Maw's real-time, on-the-fly strategy is top tier, whereas Apoc takes time to think through his actions.Doctor Strange opened a portal to position the bits behind Maw.
Anyway, Apoc has more raw power with his TK - that's clear. But Maw excels in quick thinking and battlefield creativity. He's more crafty and inventive in combat.
Lol at city-level TK - it's more like small-town-level TK.
Strange opened a portal to absorb them, Wong opened a portal to shoot them right back at Maw. At his face. He put a car up to block them and some still punched through and one sliced him across the face. My point stands that he couldn't even stop his own projectiles.
And Apoc's TK is powerful enough to trigger earthquakes in Germany and Poland while he's in Egypt, so yeah I'd say at least city level is an accurate statement.
Originally posted by h1a8Yes. It literally does. Again, every character you mention as being resistant to matter manipulation is also either a matter manipulator, a cosmic entity, or both.
Matter manipulation doesn't bypass sufficient durability. The manipulator's power must exceed the target's durability to be effective. That's why many beings across various mediums resist matter manipulation purely through their high durability.Otherwise, characters like Surfer would easily defeat anyone (Odin, Thor, Galactus, Knull, etc.) with matter manipulation alone.
Where is Apoc supposed to get a skyscraper from?
What is Thanos doing in the meantime while Apoc slowly lifts and drops a skyscraper on him?This isn't member-controlled characters. Characters fight in character, using their own creativity and natural tendencies.
You not only have to prove that Apoc is capable of doing something but also that he would think of it and choose to do it in character.
The skyscraper being dropped on Thanos scenario is just an example of Thanos's inferior durability, not necessarily a tactic to be used in this fight although if it was, Thanos would be held in place like the punk purple crybaby bytch he is due to Apoc's TK, which he has no defense against, especially considering Spiderman's webs were enough to temporarily restrain him.
And finally the core of your ridiculous argument that Apoc can't transmute Thanos' organs because "he hasn't specifically shown that tactic onscreen." Not only is that indisputably false as killing people by merging them with inanimate objects, aka Apoc's signature move, is effectively the same thing as transmuting their organs, but it just literally goes to show that you have to mentally lobotomize Apoc to give Thanos an even remote chance of not immediately dying when the match begins, which says for itself who the obvious true victor of this match is.
Originally posted by KingD19
Strange opened a portal to absorb them, Wong opened a portal to shoot them right back at Maw. At his face. He put a car up to block them and some still punched through and one sliced him across the face. My point stands that he couldn't even stop his own projectiles.And Apoc's TK is powerful enough to trigger earthquakes in Germany and Poland while he's in Egypt, so yeah I'd say at least city level is an accurate statement.
Just bad writing. Maw didn't even attempt to stop them, but that doesn't mean he lacked the ability.
I don't recall that. Show the scene where he caused earthquakes in Germany and Poland while in Egypt.
Regardless, Apoc has far more raw power than Maw.
Originally posted by h1a8
Just bad writing. Maw didn't even attempt to stop them, but that doesn't mean he lacked the ability.I don't recall that. Show the scene where he caused earthquakes in Germany and Poland while in Egypt.
Regardless, Apoc has far more raw power than Maw.
Considering he threw a car up in front of him to act as a shield instead of reasserting control over them, stands to reason he simply couldn't or else he would have. Call it bad writing if you want, but it seems more like an establishment of his limitations to me.
https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/fh3863/en_sabah_nur_earthquake/ - Magneto is in Poland working in a factory and feels the earthquake, so do Nightcrawler and Mystique who are in Germany.