Originally posted by DarkSaint85It basically ignores how badly written the WWH storyline was. If the most powerful Hulk of all time (at the time) can't even catch Strong Guy or Beast (or whatever low example one wants to use) then....Savage would be statued by Beast of all people.
You didn't just type these words. 🤦🏿🤦🏿 This is coming from the guy who ignored how badly written DOS Doomsday was and defended it using fts outside of the story.
Originally posted by carver9
You didn't just type these words. 🤦🏿🤦🏿 This is coming from the guy who ignored how badly written DOS Doomsday was and defended it using fts outside of the story.
This is what I'm saying. Using YOUR logic, this is what's happening.
WWH is the most powerful Hulk, more powerful than Savage. So......we now have a cap, lol. Any low showing, ANY, leads to Savage getting knocked way down. I am just forewarning you and pointing out what the implications are. You may not like it, may not agree with it, but that's what's going to be argued by like abhi etc
Originally posted by carver9
He is more powerful than Savage. This has been stated and shown before, during, and after the WWH arc.
That doesn't refute my point though.
If Beast, while carrying Elixir, can dodge and leap around a more powerful Hulk, then Beast WITHOUT Elixir would statue Savage, a weaker version of Hulk. That's the implication of your argument.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That doesn't refute my point though.If Beast, while carrying Elixir, can dodge and leap around a more powerful Hulk, then Beast WITHOUT Elixir would statue Savage, a weaker version of Hulk. That's the implication of your argument.
If Deathstroke without an amp can drop Superman with a single hit, why can't Colossus who is FAR stronger kill him with a single hit?
😒
At the end of the day, Hulk held back the ENTIRE arc. Doomsday didn't hold back the entire arc and failed to kill Booster going all out and had to prolong beat on Blue Beetle to ko him.
Originally posted by carver9
If Deathstroke without an amp can drop Superman with a single hit, why can't Colossus who is FAR stronger kill him with a single hit?😒
At the end of the day, Hulk held back the ENTIRE arc. Doomsday didn't hold back the entire arc and failed to kill Booster going all out and had to prolong beat on Blue Beetle to ko him.
Hulk is Hulk.
But tell me what the reason is, then. Are you saying it's comics being comics? Speak plain.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Here we go, Goobs - another member of the Intelligencia.
Originally posted by darthgoober
That why I said use the arc and logical extensions as a cut off. If I were arguing against WWH referencing later Green Scar showings I would say that during WWH he never hit that level or even what it looked like. He didn't actually hit it till the end, therefore it's not consciously accessible for threads that say WWH. It's like Goku hitting Super Saiyan, he may have learned to after he did it by accident, but during that arc it wasn't accessible consciously(though still possible in the event of an eternal stalemate). I understand the relevance of separating the overall Greenscar persona from WWH, but the way it's been done thusfar seems to defy logic.
👆 let's see what Galan chan thinks
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆 let's see what Galan chan thinks
You want clear winners, you set up strict rules that make people unhappy sometimes. That's an acceptable tradeoff as long as it's being applied to everyone to raise the overall quality and clarity of the debates, but it only accomplishes that if it's applied to everyone. If you're not willing to do that, you've got to be willing to allow folks to interpret the evidence incorrectly and just be wrong sometimes.
Originally posted by Galan007👆 Didn't know you could edit global posts. So what is the rule now? Or does there even need to be a new one at all?
I understand what Pr was getting at(he was basically just trying to avoid confusion by isolating versions or w/e), but it does come off as biased and needs to be changed.That said, I edited that particular section out of the ruling... I just didn't like how it sounded (and the implications it creates.) I'm open to hearing [fair] renditions of the ruling, though, if anyone has some input there...
Originally posted by darthgoober
That why I said use the arc and logical extensions as a cut off. If I were arguing against WWH referencing later Green Scar showings I would say that during WWH he never hit that level or even knew what it looked like. He didn't actually hit it till the end, therefore it's not consciously accessible for threads that say WWH. It's like Goku hitting Super Saiyan, he may have learned to after he did it by accident, but during that arc it wasn't accessible consciously(though still possible in the event of an eternal stalemate). I understand the relevance of separating the overall Greenscar persona from WWH, but the way it's been done thusfar seems to defy logic.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I guess I don't really understand/remember what the actual problem was in Hulk's case..? I assume it stems from feat-sharing?
👆 let's see what Galan chan thinks
My take is that scaling off a character should be based on their average performance, not their highest or lowest feats.
Why?
A character's power level fluctuates from scene to scene and comic to comic. Beating a character doesn't mean you beat them at their peak; they could have been operating somewhere in the middle.
For example, Supergirl has casually lifted a half-million-ton key in one scene but has struggled with sub-100-ton forces in another. If a random character fights and defeats her, what power level was she operating at during that fight? It makes sense to assume average levels, not her top-end or low-end showings.
The same applies to DOS DD: the characters he fought should be assumed to have been operating at their typical, historical average levels, not at their lowest or their peak. Otherwise, you end up with absurd outcomes - like Classic Mangog being weaker than Spider-Man in one comic because the Asgardians he fought were somehow operating at human levels, dying from 20–30 foot falls into water, and Thor getting knocked out just from hitting the ground after falling off Mangog's back.
Bottom line:
Scaling should be based on consistent, average performance rather than cherry-picking peak or low feats, as this leads to stronger and more accurate arguments.
Originally posted by Galan007"WWH" is an artificial KMC-coined term used out of convenience/laziness. I used it. But it is true: the actual persona was "Green Scar." I think most posters understood how "WWH" was being used though as the version of Hulk that persisted all the way through Heart of the Monster (and beyond).
I understand what Pr was getting at(he was basically just trying to avoid confusion by isolating versions or w/e), but it does come off as biased and needs to be changed.That said, I edited that particular section out of the ruling... I just didn't like how it sounded (and the implications it creates.) I'm open to hearing [fair] renditions of the ruling, though, if anyone has some input there...
IIRC, -Pr- just preferred people use the term: "Green Scar" (persona) as opposed to "WWH" (storyline). Which is more faithful to the story.
Something I can understand as I personally prefer people use the term: "Devil Hulk" (persona) as opposed to "Immortal Hulk" (storyline). It's just more people refer to Al Ewing's Hulk as "Immortal Hulk" rather than "Devil Hulk".
I don't think this rule had anything to do with bias. Rule is perfectly logical in isolation. It just clashes with forum-related habit. So long as it doesn't stifle constructive discussion, who cares? And it would only do so if a poster(s) demand it be enforced accordingly. Most of us unconsciously don't care. Can't even remember any mods, including -Pr-, ever enforcing it to the point of shutting down constructive discussion.
Originally posted by StoicOn this, let's be clear. I consider it incredibly unlikely that Banner/Doom destroyed the Green Scar persona. If you actually mean they reverted/repressed Hulk to Mindless Hulk/Savage Hulk due to Doom's surgically-induced trauma, I would agree with that.
Doom and Banner got rid of the Green Scar persona. Brain surgery. Not sure why people are saying that the Green Scar wasn’t operating at incredibly high levels, but it’s canon. Yes he can output power that would annihilate an entire planet and do it on a dime. It was a state of mind that he learned to achieve via meditative practices performed on Sakaar. Canon.
But yes: Green Scar reemerged in Al Ewing's Immortal Hulk #32 to help free Hulk from Xenmu. After that arc, it's unclear but it seems the Leader used the Green Door to pervert an approximation of the Green Scar persona to engineer the "murder" of Devil Hulk.
But with Hickman's new Imperial miniseries, it looks like Green Scar might emerge again what with it starting on Skaar and Hulk donning his Green Scar armor.
Originally posted by Galan007
I guess I don't really understand/remember what the actual problem was in Hulk's case..? I assume it stems from feat-sharing?
So what would usually happen is, a thread would be: 'WWH vs Orion's.
Inevitably, one side would use a Savage Hulk feat (repelling reality!!) then say well, a weaker Hulk did this, on panel, WWH is said to be stronger/more powerful, therefore, WWH can repel 2x reality!!!
Then, tangentially related, 10 pages later, same side would also argue 'Ok, if it IS that close, then .....WBH appears and phucks him up in a stomp, as he can casually go WBH anytime he wants' (see my quotes, when this was argued even when we had the rule that WWH was restricted to WWH story arcs).
^ This just sounds like you and carver9 going around in circles.
In which case, unless the mod ruling is being subverted by all of KMC, don't bring the mod ruling into your personal squabble.
If you want to limit a thread to just World War Hulk feats, while excluding all of Green Scar's post-WWH feats (which arguably includes everything he does when he goes WBH since that isn't a separate persona) then you can say that from the outset of your own threads.
But you didn't create this thread.
You don't like people who move the goalposts? Reasonable. So if someone posts a WWH thread, just ask from the beginning: are we including everything he did as Green Scar and when going WBH-levels? You don't like the response, then don't interact.
Set your own goalposts. Or make your own threads. But unless I am missing something, this has little to do with mod rulings.