Originally posted by Galan007
I guess I don't really understand/remember what the actual problem was in Hulk's case..? I assume it stems from feat-sharing?
^ If the current controversy emerges from the same two usual suspects, then they can abide by the mod ruling as it stands.
The rest of the forum shouldn't be obliged to promote that reconciliation but I guess to avoid all conjecture and prevarication, maybe let's all just try to use "Green Scar" as opposed to "WWH". Forum-wide old habits die hard, sure.
If people are trying to argue that Green Scar should never have any of the famously, but KMC-artificially distinguished, "WBH" feats as it were, that's a completely different discussion.
Spoiler:But even that debate can be avoided by simply defining the thread OP as "Green Scar w/o WBH-level feats".
And you'd be absolutely wrong but whatever, cash me outside, b1tch.
If the OP isn't that restricted, then you engage per the OP's stipulations. Or you don't.
If you're unsure, then ask what the limitations are.
As far as I am concerned, unless the thread OP twists/misinterprets comics, there's no need to argue over any of this.
I just thought it was clear.....
If OP wants PR Beyonder, they say, and we use PR Beyonder scans.
If OP wants Byrne Superman, or Bendis, we use the appropriate scans. We don't use 'weaker' Byrne Superman and then extrapolate upwards.
If OP states 'Classic Kingpin ' we don't take Modern Kingpin, say Classic is more powerful and then extrapolate upwards.
I just said we go by what's in the OP. Not sure why this is so contentious. My stance on Goobers points:
1. weaker Hulks should have their feats logically for WWH.
2. His opponents should have their full histories. Colossus has his full history, which is why crumpling him is so damn impressive.
3.WBH doesn't come out in a WWH thread (unless OP states it, obvs). Otherwise, why stipulate character versions?
^ Sounds like the crux of your issue is that what KMC posters consider WWH should never include WBH feats.
In the comics, the Hulk persona that performed both WWH and WBH feats was Green Scar. "WWH feats", as it were, was just Green Scar holding back. "WBH feats" was Green Scar no longer holding back. Heart of the Monster made that clear.
So if you want to impose -Pr-'s ruling that "WWH" is contained to the storyline of World War Hulk, ok. Freely do that in your own threads that you create.
If carver9 and the other 90% of KMC creates a "WWH vs ______" thread, maybe read the room and understand that they're referring to Green Scar. They're not limiting Hulk's feats to World War Hulk proper.
If you want to promote otherwise, you have a mod ruling to utilize, sure. But is the ultimate goal of your back-and-forth with carver9 to get all of KMC to stop using the term "WWH" and start using "Green Scar"??? Doesn't seem so.
This all strikes me as semantics that has little (if nothing) to do with what -Pr- meant with his ruling.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Well, yea mang. That's what we're saying. Thread OPs define the discussion parameters. Engage or don't.
I just said we go by what's in the OP. Not sure why this is so contentious.
Originally posted by carver9If there's a single thing that I identify with Darksaint85's frustrations is that you throw out terms like "Rebirth Superman" and "New 52 Superman" recklessly as if those were settled incarnations.
At the end of the day, people are worried about Hulk power level. They try to limit the character and take away his fts because they know he would break whomever he is pitted against. It pretty freaking obvious. They want to give Superman Pre Crisis fts but cry when a stronger Hulk get his own fts.
They're not.
But as thread OP, you could eliminate all subjective interpretation and unilaterally define what you mean for purposes of this single thread without invoking such loaded terms. So take responsibility over your own threads. Be clear what feats count and don't.
Because if you don't, then you're just perpetuating quarrels over semantics to avoid constructive discussion over actual comics.
If you want to constructively discuss what those incarnations mean, you can do that without creating bait threads.
^ To be clear, not everybody is doing this. But anybody who is, has an obvious way out: specify/define your own thread OP.
Doing so will avert circular arguments. It will prevent needless bait threads over what versions of the characters you'd subjectively prefer were actually in the thread in contravention of the actual thread OP's intentions. We all agree that most comic characters actually have distinct incarnations on-panel, via retcons, specific amps, personas, etc.
On one hand: If a thread OP is more specific, that would promote constructive discussion over a specific library of actual comics. Which are up to interpretation, sure, but at least the discussion would be about what happened on-panel or not. You'd avoid semantics over terminology/canonicity. You'd focus on specific comics. It's their thread OP, after all.
On the other hand: If a thread OP actually wants to blend incarnations and utilize a homogenized conglomerate character, then they can actually do that too and invite discussion over whole swathes of comics. That would promote appreciation of legacy and expanded history, if not current canon. But it's their thread OP, after all.
But currently: If they just want to otherwise obfuscate constructive discussion? Then they'll just create more bait threads, recklessly throw out loaded terms, invoke obscure mod rulings, and chase each other's tails endlessly rather than discuss comics. I dunno, mang. I'd rather they discuss the comics.
At the very least, don't drag past mod rulings into these tete-a-tetes. Ya'll could just as simply specify/define your own thread OPs and completely avoid all this semantic bs. And if you refuse, well it's obvious why.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So what would usually happen is, a thread would be: 'WWH vs Orion's.Inevitably, one side would use a Savage Hulk feat (repelling reality!!) then say well, a weaker Hulk did this, on panel, WWH is said to be stronger/more powerful, therefore, WWH can repel 2x reality!!!
Then, tangentially related, 10 pages later, same side would also argue 'Ok, if it IS that close, then .....WBH appears and phucks him up in a stomp, as he can casually go WBH anytime he wants' (see my quotes, when this was argued even when we had the rule that WWH was restricted to WWH story arcs).
Originally posted by darthgooberI do remember this now. 👆
Yeah pretty much. Basically whether or not the feats of weaker Hulks were usable for WWH or whether him and his opponents should be judged only by what went down in the story and whether or not he was allowed to go World Breaker in WWH threads.
Thing with WWH is that he is one of the more powerful versions of the character, so logical/rational(key words) feat-sharing makes sense in some cases(ie. if Savage Hulk can lift 1,000lbs, I wouldn't have a problem assuming that WWH could do the same)... But I suppose that's where things might've hit a snag in the past, lol. My main problem with the initial ruling is that it seems to inadvertently gimp Hulk in a way that no other character on the forum is affected by.
Where forum terminology is concerned: even though they're obvs the same guy, I've always thought of "WWH" and "WBH" as two completely different versions of the character. So if a thread specifies "WWH" in the title/OP, then I just assume they're only using everything Hulk did up to the conclusion of his fight with Sentry... But that's just me. /shrug
As with everything, if people want something like "WBH-mode" accessible or inaccessible to Hulk in a thread, all you have to do is specify such in the OP, and *poof*, problem solved. If no specificity is provided, however, there should probably be a 'default' of sorts as to avoid confusion and derail the threads with semantics -- kind of like our "current versions" default. /shrug
That's pretty much my take on it, not what we were having where there were almost zero scans of Hulk from the WWH story arc, but instead we were just having Savage, extrapolated upwards, and WBH/HotM scans were used.
As you say, as long as we have a default. If the OP says 'Round 2 WBH appears' or 'If needed, Hulk ramps up to WBH', then yeah, I'm all in favour. If not defined, then ...it's WWH. As the OP stipulated.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85👆
That's pretty much my take on it, not what we were having where there were almost zero scans of Hulk from the WWH story arc, but instead we were just having Savage, extrapolated upwards, and WBH/HotM scans were used.As you say, as long as we have a default. If the OP says 'Round 2 WBH appears' or 'If needed, Hulk ramps up to WBH', then yeah, I'm all in favour. If not defined, then ...it's WWH. As the OP stipulated.
My opinion is...
"WWH" = everything Hulk did up to the conclusion of his fight with Sentry in the final issue of the arc... And since he is canonically one of the strongest iterations of Hulk, logical and reasonable feat-sharing/power-scaling from his lesser versions is acceptable in some cases(like we'd do with any other character)... But outliers are still outliers, ambiguous showings are still ambiguous showings, statements-only are still statements-only, etc.
Flip side, "WBH" = a very specific mindset that came about after his battle with Sentry, and entailed Hulk reaching a mindset/level that entirely differentiated him from all other versions.
tl;dr
If you only say "WWH", I would instinctively just consider all of his showings up to about this point:
https://ibb.co/Pz9KLw0x
*That would be my personal default/cap for the version specified.
Whereas if you say "WBH", I'm obvs assuming this is in play:
https://ibb.co/9mgyrvJN
*But again: the thread starter sets the parameters. So IF you want 'World-Breaker-Mode' accessible to "WWH", all you have to do is specify such in the OP.
...Or at least, that's how I view it. Thoughts?
Originally posted by carver9
What do we do with the WWH showings after his battle against Sentry? He showed up in Indestructible Hulk and he appeared in Immortal Hulk and was referenced as being stronger than both. ODG statements make sense imo.
Originally posted by Galan007
👆My opinion is...
"WWH" = everything Hulk did up to the conclusion of his fight with Sentry in the final issue of the arc... And since he is canonically one of the strongest iterations of Hulk, logical and reasonable feat-sharing/power-scaling from his lesser versions is acceptable in some cases(like we'd do with any other character)... But outliers are still outliers, ambiguous showings are still ambiguous showings, statements-only are still statements-only, etc.
Flip side, "WBH" = a very specific mindset that came about after his battle with Sentry, and entailed Hulk reaching a mindset/level that entirely differentiated him from all other versions.
tl;dr
If you only say "WWH", I would instinctively just consider all of his showings up to about this point:
https://ibb.co/Pz9KLw0x
*That would be my personal default/cap for the version specified.Whereas if you say "WBH", I'm obvs assuming this is in play:
https://ibb.co/9mgyrvJN*But again: the thread starter sets the parameters. So IF you want 'World-Breaker-Mode' accessible to "WWH", all you have to do is specify such in the OP.
...Or at least, that's how I view it. Thoughts?
That feels right, and agree broadly with it. Lol at Carv's post, though - you can see Carver even now desperately trying though - Immortal and Indestructible are being referenced, and he will just extrapolate from them.
Indestructible resisted N-zone particle glass? Well then WWH gets that feat, but amped etc etc.
Originally posted by darthgoober
It seems like the implication is that post WWH arc will be referred to as Green Scar. That'll be the name for the overall character, while WWH is a denotation of where he was during a specific period of character development. Sounds pretty good to me overall.
That's pretty much what I've been saying this entire time. When a thread specifies WWH, it's a specific arc.
I even noted down in my thread exactly which comic issues to draw from etc for WWH....and the Intelligencia continued trying to use scans from additional issueS, lol.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That feels right, and agree broadly with it. Lol at Carv's post, though - you can see Carver even now desperately trying though - Immortal and Indestructible are being referenced, and he will just extrapolate from them.Indestructible resisted N-zone particle glass? Well then WWH gets that feat, but amped etc etc.
If they're allowing Hulk to be handled logically, be logical.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That feels right, and agree broadly with it. Lol at Carv's post, though - you can see Carver even now desperately trying though - Immortal and Indestructible are being referenced, and he will just extrapolate from them.Indestructible resisted N-zone particle glass? Well then WWH gets that feat, but amped etc etc.
Stop crying. I just asked a question.