Pre-NJO Luke is severely overestimated most of the time.
If this is the Jedi Academy book trilogy, then Bane stomps a hole through him.
Luke lost a lightsaber duel to a novice who barely knew how to hold a lightsaber. (Gantoris)
Also, in the trilogy, Luke's knowledge and command of the Force 99% of the time was very small and basic, so in a Force duel, Bane would rape him as well.
If this is the Jedi Academy game, then Luke still loses.
He only defeated DE Sidious because of Leia's involvement, and he couldn't handle Desann, who was himself a mere apprentice.
Bane, being a Dark Lord of the Sith, and innovator of some of the deadliest Sith techniques known to man, stacks up far beyond a haughty lizard, and Leia isn't around to help Luke against Bane's Force attacks, either.
After a moderately difficult fight for Darth Bane, Luke goes down, hard.
Originally posted by Rookwood
Pre-NJO Luke is severely overestimated most of the time.If this is the Jedi Academy book trilogy, then Bane stomps a hole through him.
Luke lost a lightsaber duel to a novice who barely knew how to hold a lightsaber. (Gantoris)
Also, in the trilogy, Luke's knowledge and command of the Force 99% of the time was very small and basic, so in a Force duel, Bane would rape him as well.
If this is the Jedi Academy game, then Luke still loses.
He only defeated DE Sidious because of Leia's involvement, and he couldn't handle Desann, who was himself a mere apprentice.Bane, being a Dark Lord of the Sith, and innovator of some of the deadliest Sith techniques known to man, stacks up far beyond a haughty lizard, and Leia isn't around to help Luke against Bane's Force attacks, either.
After a moderately difficult fight for Darth Bane, Luke goes down, hard.
No, Luke held back on Gantoris so as to not make the situation worse - though it is true that Gantoris was successful in driving Luke back constantly, even though he was little more than a novice and also true that Luke was only able to gain the advantage again once Gantoris was distracted by a nearby animal.
But anyway, this is the Jedi Academy video game, not the Jedi Search novels, which is what I think you're referring to.
Originally posted by Rookwood
He only defeated DE Sidious because of Leia's involvement, and he couldn't handle Desann, who was himself a mere apprentice.
How much could Leia have helped though really? She was only a padawan.
And let's not forget DE Luke's Force Pressing an AT-AT Walker down to the floor.
Btw way how long after DE does Jedi Academy take place?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
How much could Leia have helped though really? She was only a padawan.
From a previous thread:
Originally posted by Dr. StylesDE Handbook as well as pretty much EVERY other source regarding the battle says otherwise. Knowing the technique is regardless, as Liea proved.
"Together with a third force wielder stirring in her womb, Luke and Liea were able to overcome the Emperor with Lightside energy."
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=165
And before you say that was in regards to the force storm:
"Listen to me Liea...we can stop him...I've read his dark books according to his own word he cannot control the chaos he has awakened. Join your Jedi power to mine."
" I already am, Luke haven't you sensed it."
They were both bolstering him all throughout the duel, hence Liea glowing in the back ground.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And let's not forget DE Luke's Force Pressing an AT-AT Walker down to the floor.
He didn't press it down to the floor - it fired a blaster bolt at him, and he initially reflected it back into the cockpit, damaging it. He then used the Force to telekinetically damage the cockpit enough to bring the AT-AT down.
That's pretty decent as far as feats go - reflecting it's own beam at it with a lightsaber and telekinetically damaging the already crippled cockpit. Bane could easily do the same thing.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Btw way how long after DE does Jedi Academy take place?
Only four years. And if I remember, Desann basically overwhelms Luke in combat, and then buries him under a pile of rubble.
Luke then states along the lines that he can't handle him.
Desann was essentially a half-trained Apprentice.
Edit: To quote Stealth Moose..
Originally posted by Janus Marius
ESB Luke with his whole week of training- Owned.ROTJ Luke with his whole "I had three years to sit on my ass and what seemed to be a week's worth of training in Fort Dagobah under a puppet that looked like it ate rabbit poop that it found in my napsack"= Owned.
DE Luke, "I got beat down and made Sidious' ***** and it took Han Solo and worthless Leia among with the other half of the movie cast to save my no-talent ass"- Owned.
NJO Luke- Luke suddenly can snap his fingers and Bane would drop dead.
Huh. There's your thread.
😛
Wow, old quote is old. But still mostly true. AT-AT walkers don't have Force defense, so while crushing one makes Newton all hot and bothered, it doesn't mean shit if the other guy can avoid it or do the same back.
Or you know, just beat your ass all around the park.
Ah, the old days... Dipsit, Somebody, Nefarus, Fishy, Dubya, Traya, etc. Where have they all gone?
Originally posted by Battlemaster
From a previous thread:
Im not questioning if she helped. Im questioning how much a padawan and unborn child "could" have possibly helped. If she actually got her lightsaber out and helped Luke in the duel that would be different. But she was just standing there, focusing the force with her padawan level training.
As it was Luke must have been doing most the work imo.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
He didn't press it down to the floor - it fired a blaster bolt at him, and he initially reflected it back into the cockpit, damaging it. He then used the Force to telekinetically damage the cockpit enough to bring the AT-AT down. That's pretty decent as far as feats go - reflecting it's own beam at it with a lightsaber and telekinetically damaging the already crippled cockpit. Bane could easily do the same thing.
IIRC it did'nt say anything about the cockpit. It just said something like "remembering the words of his master size matters not, Luke presses against the walker with the Force."
That seems like some Starkiller type stuff to me.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Only four years. And if I remember, Desann basically overwhelms Luke in combat, and then buries him under a pile of rubble.
Luke then states along the lines that he can't handle him.
Desann was essentially a half-trained Apprentice.
You realise 4 years after DE means he's had a total of 14 years of training as a Jedi by then. That's more years of training than Anakin ever had (pre-Vader).
And it includes being a Jedi Knight for the last 10 years, and a Jedi Master for the last 4.
Im not aware of exactly what happened with Desann but considering Luke was crushing AT-AT's 4 years earlier it sounds like some serious PIS.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
AT-AT walkers don't have Force defense,
Still feat wise who from the PT beats that in Raw TK Power besides Yoda and Sidious?
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Im not questioning if she helped. Im questioning how much a padawan and unborn child "could" have possibly helped. If she actually got her lightsaber out and helped Luke in the duel that would be different. But she was just standing there, focusing the force with her padawan level training.As it was Luke must have been doing most the work imo.
Not the point.
Before Leia helped, Sidious was essentially having his way with Luke.
Then when they fought a second time, Leia used Battle Meditation and focused her raw Force power with Anakin, and through writer's-fiat showed Sidious what the ever-embracing warmth of the Light side could do.
This allowed Luke to gain the upper hand, and spare himself another one-sided ass beating from the Sith Lord.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
IIRC it did'nt say anything about the cockpit. It just said something like "remembering the words of his master size matters not, Luke presses against the walker with the Force."That seems like some Starkiller type stuff to me.
Point is, the cockpit was specifically damaged by the bolt being deflected by the lightsaber, crippling the machine and allowing Luke's TK to do the rest.
If his TK was as powerful as you are assuming, he would have had no need to use his lightsaber in the first place.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You realise 4 years after DE means he's had a total of 14 years of training as a Jedi by then. That's more years of training than Anakin ever had (pre-Vader).And it includes being a Jedi Knight for the last 10 years, and a Jedi Master for the last 4.
Im not aware of exactly what happened with Desann but considering Luke was crushing AT-AT's 4 years earlier it sounds like some serious PIS.
And..
Originally posted by Janus Marius
ESB Luke with his whole week of training- Owned.ROTJ Luke with his whole "I had three years to sit on my ass and what seemed to be a week's worth of training in Fort Dagobah under a puppet that looked like it ate rabbit poop that it found in my napsack"= Owned.
DE Luke, "I got beat down and made Sidious' ***** and it took Han Solo and worthless Leia among with the other half of the movie cast to save my no-talent ass"- Owned.
NJO Luke- Luke suddenly can snap his fingers and Bane would drop dead.
Huh. There's your thread.
If anything was PIS, it was Luke's handling of the At-At, especially if this was before Palpy's training.
One year earlier, while fleeing Stormtroopers on one of the dreadnoughts of the Katana Fleet with Han Solo, Luke and Han stumble into a store room full of weapons and AT-PT's, which are far smaller than even AT-ST's, and Han gets the idea to have Luke pick one of them up and rest it against the doors leading into the room.
Luke tries, and even using all his power, admits he can't even get it to budge.
One year later, I'm not so sure he will have improved enough to TK an AT-AT like a toy.
In the same book where he attempted to TK the AT-PT, Luke also used the Force to reach out, and telekinetically rip up the wiring of an approaching starfighter in order to destroy it.
He succeeds with this.
As we don't actually see him crush the AT-ST, but merely bring it down, after his blaster-bolt deflection crippled the command cabin, it might be more logical to say that he used his TK to finish the job his deflection started. Just maybe.wink3
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Still feat wise who from the PT beats that in Raw TK Power besides Yoda and Sidious?
Luke doesn't really display any blatant feats of monster-TK like Yoda and Sidious, until NJO, if memory serves.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Still feat wise who from the PT beats that in Raw TK Power besides Yoda and Sidious?
To elaborate, there were likely plenty of Jedi Masters, certainly on the Council that could reflect a blaster-bolt into a fighting machine, and TK some of it's innards to finish it off.
Not overly impressive.
Edit: And I'm sure Luke's opponent in this Thread, could do better.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Not the point. Before Leia helped, Sidious was essentially having his way with Luke.Then when they fought a second time, Leia used Battle Meditation and focused her raw Force power with Anakin, and through writer's-fiat showed Sidious what the ever-embracing warmth of the Light side could do.
This allowed Luke to gain the upper hand, and spare himself another one-sided ass beating from the Sith Lord.
Of course that's the point. How could Padawan Leia possibly have had significant enough training in enhancing her brother's power just by meditating?? Luke must have been doing the vast majority off the work.
As for how he did better the second time, he says my with the aid of my sister my mind has been lifted (or something to that effect, will have to check the comic again)
I think Leia did help Luke to get the upper hand the second time, but not much in the way you think. She helped him to clear his mind. He was on the brink of turning to the dark side before her intervention, and was getting very confused.
And let's not forget this was Sidious with Force Mastery way way beyond his ROTS self, but in a much younger, stronger body. So it was a huge feat for Luke.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Point is, the cockpit was specifically damaged by the bolt being deflected by the lightsaber, crippling the machine and allowing Luke's TK to do the rest.If his TK was as powerful as you are assuming, he would have had no need to use his lightsaber in the first place.
He only needed his lightsaber to deflect the AT-AT's fire power. That in itself is a huge feat.
There's no need to lowball that feat, IMO that was beyond the vast majority of Jedi. Could Obi-Wan do that? No way. It's beyond him. Could Mace? Possibly, although it's bigger than any Tk feat I've seen from him.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
And..
Lol Jaunus's bitching of Luke doesn't prove anything.
And I find it strange that you all seem to think Jedi Knight Luke in ROTJ was useless, and yet Padawan Leia can suddenly just sit there and significantly enhance Luke's power by staring really hard 🙄
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Luke doesn't really display any blatant feats of monster-TK like Yoda and Sidious, until NJO, if memory serves.
True but I think he was probably ahead of the likes of Mace Windu and Count Dooku in terms of his Tk.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course that's the point. How could Padawan Leia possibly have had significant enough training in enhancing her brother's power just by meditating?? Luke must have been doing the vast majority off the work.As for how he did better the second time, he says my with the aid of my sister my mind has been lifted (or something to that effect, will have to check the comic again)
I think Leia did help Luke to get the upper hand the second time, but not much in the way you think. She helped him to clear his mind. He was on the brink of turning to the dark side before her intervention, and was getting very confused.
And let's not forget this was Sidious with Force Mastery way way beyond his ROTS self, but in a much younger, stronger body. So it was a huge feat for Luke.
Originally posted by Dr. Styles
DE Handbook as well as pretty much EVERY other source regarding the battle says otherwise. Knowing the technique is regardless, as Liea proved."Together with a third force wielder stirring in her womb, Luke and Liea were able to overcome the Emperor with Lightside energy."
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=125&page=165
And before you say that was in regards to the force storm:
"Listen to me Liea...we can stop him...I've read his dark books according to his own word he cannot control the chaos he has awakened. Join your Jedi power to mine."
" I already am, Luke haven't you sensed it."
They were both bolstering him all throughout the duel, hence Liea glowing in the back ground.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
He only needed his lightsaber to deflect the AT-AT's fire power. That in itself is a huge feat.There's no need to lowball that feat, IMO that was beyond the vast majority of Jedi. Could Obi-Wan do that? No way. It's beyond him. Could Mace? Possibly, although it's bigger than any Tk feat I've seen from him.
I'm not sure the writer knew much about AT-AT's, but I know that it likely wasn't using it's main cannon, because the blast effect would have surpassed the lightsabers blade.
It was likely one of the smaller cannons, and deflecting those has to do with reflex/precog, as the actual repelling of the bolt is taken care of by the lightsaber.
In any case, that in itself is not a TK feat.
And yeah, Mace and Obi-wan could deflect attacks like that while taking naps. 😊
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Lol Jaunus's bitching of Luke doesn't prove anything.
Jaunus is one of the finest Debators on the Forum - you could learn a thing or two from him.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And I find it strange that you all seem to think Jedi Knight Luke in ROTJ was useless, and yet Padawan Leia can suddenly just sit there and significantly enhance Luke's power by staring really hard 🙄
Understand something - it's not a matter of her being a Padawan or not.
Remember that Leia shares Anakin Skywalker's bloodline as well. She has latent abilities within her as well, and she demonstrated this when she saved her brother from an ass-beating at the hands of Palpatine.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True but I think he was probably ahead of the likes of Mace Windu and Count Dooku in terms of his Tk.
Doubt it.
Luke looses this one.
At that point it is unlikely that he knew shatterpoint to break armor or cut through it like in case with Slayers.
The armor is way too big advantage. Bane doesn't even need to block most of the attacks, he would simply answer attack with attack and Luke would have to go pure defense.
Lost? 0_o He was simply was blocking attacks without countering. What would be the point of beating up already angered student? What would it teach other apprentices?
Luke lost a lightsaber duel to a novice who barely knew how to hold a lightsaber.
Also, in the trilogy, Luke's knowledge and command of the Force 99% of the time was very small and basic, so in a Force duel, Bane would rape him as well.There was plenty of feats from Luke from before. And why he needs to show feats at all? He was wise Jedi, not some power abusing Sith. He used Force only, when necessary. That is not what makes Jedi great.
Bane, being a Dark Lord of the Sith, and innovator of some of the deadliest Sith techniques known to man, stacks up far beyond a haughty lizard, and Leia isn't around to help Luke against Bane's Force attacks, either.Sith knowledge of the Force in terms how to harm someone was always wider, than Jedi. That is why they are Sith.
Luke doesn't really display any blatant feats of monster-TK like Yoda and Sidious, until NJO, if memory serves.[/]You are talking about cannon, yet, rely on game, where Luke and Desann had awfully represented short encounter, which can be subjected to wide speculation.
What exactly monstrous Yoda displayed? The only thing he could do that Luke couldn't(thanks to daddy for chopped arm) is absorbing lightning. But it is more of a unique talent that not everyone can master regardless of power.[quote]I'm not sure the writer knew much about AT-AT's, but I know that it likely wasn't using it's main cannon, because the blast effect would have surpassed the lightsabers blade.
Jaunus is one of the finest Debators on the Forum - you could learn a thing or two from him.
Understand something - it's not a matter of her being a Padawan or not.Her help was mostly psychological. She helped him to understand his mistakes and open his eyes. Then he gives whole long talk himself, proclaims that the spell is broken and engage in combat. In audio book Lea is described as watching light and darkness confronting, not by concentrating to empower Luke. Yes, Sister did make difference. But not by empowering Luke with Force. She gave him emotional ground. Battle meditation is actually all about moral spirits.
Remember that Leia shares Anakin Skywalker's bloodline as well. She has latent abilities within her as well, and she demonstrated this when she saved her brother from an ass-beating at the hands of Palpatine.
Luke defeated Palpatine by embracing lightside again, this is the whole point of the story. It is pathetic to try strip him away from this achievement.
And doesn't matter how great feats of Luke were. Demonstration of destruction with use of Force is for Sith, not Jedi. Yes, Luke did topple that AT-AT and that was cool. But the machine was already disabled after he deflected its volley, useless exertion. It was very unwise of him, which only proves how inexperienced he still was at the time.
First Dr. Styles hasn't proved anything there. It's speculation. Her saying "I already am" does not prove she was during the Lightsaber fight.
Originally posted by BattlemasterAnd yeah, Mace and Obi-wan could deflect attacks like that while taking naps. 😊
Mace Windu could.. But Obi-Wan deflect an AT-AT's firepower back at it causing it to be crippled? Nah.
And when it came to pressing the Force against the Walker Id say Mace doing it: Possible (though proof could be required)
Obi-Wan doing it: Nah, impossible.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Jaunus is one of the finest Debators on the Forum - you could learn a thing or two from him.
I never once said I don't like the guy or he's not a good debator. He is. But that doesn't make him right all the time. Especially in this case where he himself is clearly not completely serious and is just on a frenzy attack against Luke.
Originally posted by Battlemaster
Understand something - it's not a matter of her being a Padawan or not.
Remember that Leia shares Anakin Skywalker's bloodline as well. She has latent abilities within her as well, and she demonstrated this when she saved her brother from an ass-beating at the hands of Palpatine.
Of course her being a padawan matters. Tell me this, could youngling Anakin himself have just have stood there in TPM watching Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fight and somehow boost their power?? Of course not.
Why didn't Obi-Wan boost Qui-Gon's power while helplessly watching him fight Darth Maul solo? If TPM Obi-Wan(ready to be Knighted) had no technique for doing that then you can bet anything Padawan Leia is even less able.
Originally posted by Arhael
Her help was mostly psychological. She helped him to understand his mistakes and open his eyes. Then he gives whole long talk himself, proclaims that the spell is broken and engage in combat. In audio book Lea is described as watching light and darkness confronting, not by concentrating to empower Luke. Yes, Sister did make difference. But not by empowering Luke with Force. She gave him emotional ground. Battle meditation is actually all about moral spirits.Luke defeated Palpatine by embracing lightside again, this is the whole point of the story. It is pathetic to try strip him away from this achievement.
Exactly 👆
In fact the comic itself says "With Leia's help Luke is using unexplored resources within himself" or something to that effect. She was aiding him in using his own potential. The actual telekinetic help from her and baby Anakin would have been minimal.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First Dr. Styles hasn't proved anything there. It's speculation. Her saying "I already am" does not prove she was during the Lightsaber fight.
Everyone here, including Nephys, could tell you consistently what the scans the good Doctor provided, indicate.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Mace Windu could.. But Obi-Wan deflect an AT-AT's firepower back at it causing it to be crippled? Nah.
So much for Obi-Wan's vaunted skill at defense. 😛
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
And when it came to pressing the Force against the Walker Id say Mace doing it: Possible (though proof could be required)Obi-Wan doing it: Nah, impossible.
Not so impossible - it's only pushing on the damaged command-cabin to kill the control to the rest of the machine, and Obi-wan had displayed good TK feats before, such as dragging a starfighter across a hangar bay.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I never once said I don't like the guy or he's not a good debator. He is. But that doesn't make him right all the time. Especially in this case where he himself is clearly not completely serious and is just on a frenzy attack against Luke.
He is pretty much always right - at least when I've seen him debate. He knows alot about Jedi/Sith lore, and his viewpoints are spot-on.
He was frustrated about people's over-hyping of early-Luke, and I share that frustration.
His viewpoints were right and correct on the matter.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Of course her being a padawan matters. Tell me this, could youngling Anakin himself have just have stood there in TPM watching Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan fight and somehow boost their power?? Of course not.Why didn't Obi-Wan boost Qui-Gon's power while helplessly watching him fight Darth Maul solo? If TPM Obi-Wan(ready to be Knighted) had no technique for doing that then you can bet anything Padawan Leia is even less able.
I can tell you must be new to Star Wars.
I'll break it down for you: Some Force-users have latent powers, that even as Padawans or even Initiate's they can utilize and have surprising skill with.
Obviously, Leia had a latent talent with a form of Battle Meditation, as indicated.
Asking why Obi-wan didn't do the same thing is redundant, as he obviously didn't have the same latent talent.
Now you know. ✅
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Exactly 👆In fact the comic itself says "With Leia's help Luke is using unexplored resources within himself" or something to that effect. She was aiding him in using his own potential. The actual telekinetic help from her and baby Anakin would have been minimal.
Okay, and without it, he would be a corpse.
/Thread.