Final Destination [Maximum] Vol.9 Bowser X Kain

Started by Burning thought21 pages
Originally posted by The Scenario

He has never cut deep though, which proves he cant. Anything within raziels basic move set, e.g. cutting limbs off or such is off limits to him agianst Dumahim, therefore he has to change tactics.

Since when do I have to do that? we know Vamps are weak to moebius' staff and you mentioned vorador so I dont know what the "every vampire" is comment was about. You used it wrongly, I just tought you how to use it properly. No its not, never is it said to be a vampire weakness. There is no precedent until you prove this one was specifically used at any point as a spear by people.

No, it does not at all. You claim there was only one attack, the game never points this out, nor does it point out only humans killed vamps, for all you know another Dumahim killed it (oh and I dont have to prove one did, I just pointed out we dont actually know therefore you dont have a fact). You dont have facts in most of your claims.

Its flawed in your mind, you cant grasp how a spear gun works clearly, the only difference between this one and a real one being the spear is larger than typically used which is true in many fictions, its still a far more likely theory than humans besting them with spears in melee. You did not prove anything, anyone can tell you before this thread was opened that any sharp metal shaft can be used in melee, you still have no case to say this one was and against the other evidence, its unlikely. We dont know how they load their weapons, we dont even see the amunition, only that it fires, no more proof is needed based on your logic.

No I dont, and I never said there "was", I said there could have been and you dont know, not a clue. Well, you would have to prove nothing ever touched the Dumahim other than humans to make that claim. Of course theres proof, theres chunks missing from the creatures, chunks that cannot be done by the weapons shown, seriously you would probably still claim it was the spears if they were on fire or steaming with magic energy.

I dont recall these claims.

I just explained the argument as a positive, go and prove "Vampire inaction does halt evolution" because thats your claim, as a positive. We know they evolve in periods of centuries, as Raziel whos only served with Kain a millenia is well versed in it, he does not describe it as something that rarely happens, further we know that despite this, the vampires have changed drastically since Raziel being tossed into the abyss.

Youve seen it, infact you posted one not too long ago. Also why "non gameplay"? again, your confusio between gameplay mechanics, you argued the whole torch thing ad nauseum from a gameplay video and that was a gameplay mechanic so dont try and be hypocrtical.

So explain why he cant cut their heads off? also you dont know if their "less sharp", their a single point as opposed to two points, less surface area. Kain is never damaged in SR1, the only time Kain is actually wounded is in the end, which was and still is the only retcon in the series that I know of when it was retconned in SR2.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Nothing says "only" the soul changes does it. And clearly, Dumah changed physically himself, because he was far too big for his bonds when Raziel arrived and he easily broke them. Everything comes from the soul, nothing from the body which is just an animated bag of flesh.

Bad example straight off the bat because its not related in any way 🙄

A better example would be showing you frenchmen lieing dead in the river and then saying it happened centuries ago, then you assume just because one source states the English warred with the french between/before this period it could not possibly be anyone else before or after them, in centuries of time. Even more relevent because unlike human bodies, vampires dont rot, they dont dissolve until their souls are gone because is the soul that is the vampire, and the body of the vampire is bonded to the soul.

I like how you ask for gameplay not to be used, then you use an actual gameplay mechanic. Hang on, why are they not active? their all within the blade, your using the gameplay mechanic of players switching between them now as well? The canon points out them all being within the blade, the whole "player switching" has not been part of the canon at all.

Its neither a real star, supernova or physical system, its purely Mario fictional. YOu will not find a celestial body like that in the universe.

I dont ignore it, clearly the observatory and such are not much heavier than a pirate ship. A pirate ship is not heavy at all and regardless, everything swallowed by this black hole is extremely slow, real black holes are known for devouring whole suns, e.g. the enormous ones, not tiny ones.

The fiction is depicted as toonlike, why this specific thing is depicted as anything else in your mind I dont know. All that happened was that it was all "put to rights!" by the fairy women.

No my entire argument if you did not notice is that you cant claim facts on how a weapon was used in this specific example without showing it. Saying "it happened with other sharp spears!" is not fact for this example. You see your argument needs a lot of facts, my counter is irrelevent until youve proven your argument. Ive shown the spear guns, so stop trying to mock me, again your being rude.

We dont even know if shes talking about cosmic dust, afterall real cosmic dust does not make baby numas that grow up to be stars/galaxies.

Erm no, he did not make a 2mm cut less than 1/2 square mm wide and then just pull the guys skin away, further hes pull up fat.

Originally posted by Burning thought
psi is the pressure so you pointing out it having an increasing front is irrelevent. Were not talking about a sharp head either, were talking about one sharp point in front of a cone.

This post missed the whole point of my post. If irl rules say that you only need to have attack pressure anywhere above the body durability then it can pierce it, then that rule would apply here too.

Originally posted by Burning thought
I took into account all the avenues to calcluation pressure ratio, surface area being all part of the "angle", I dont think you understand the rest of my calculation, so your points past the first are gibberish.

The calc is hardly "made up", its just the old pressure formula thats proven.


Would like your response on how a blunt bullet with only 100x skins limit can fly through the body. With this rule, his claws (that are much sharper then a blunt bullet) would need less then 100x to tear through Kain's body. And as his claws are already well past 100x as it is.

Really, really.. no. You used the surface area of the cone tips. Thats not the formula for edges, thats the formula for a flat surface. And a major part if you chose to use it, correctly.

For accurately measuring how deep the puncture will go you'll need the formula for Kain's flesh levels acting on tears/stabs and the edge angle of the claws that you think is covered by simply getting the surface area. If you going to do it, do it right.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Harming Kains nerves is not going to be much use when a counter slash is going to destroy Bowser on both physical and spiritual levels. Its like you making me yelp in pain from a poke to the ribs and my counter being to blow you up with a stick of dynamite.

Raziel mensions no healing to Kain in the fight were talking about, yes Raziel heals Kain in the final scene, thats nothing to do with a scene hours ago....

Re-read the post, I said actual damage, pain is not equel to Claws slashing into kain, we dont see that happen, so your point is useless.


Missed the point, again. Kain takes that hit like a person would take a punch to the face. You're saying that Kain is impervious to Raziel's attacks when its clear that his hits hurt Kain like a punch would a person. So apparently his skin can take Raziel's claws but his body can't take the force? Oh that makes sense..

"*gasps* It seems.. that your wounds are healing as you *gasps* ..absorb my lifeforce..." 1. Are you expecting Raziel to tell Kain what he's doing to him? "ARG- youre absorbing me and healing in the process!!" :/ 2. This was the first time it happened, how would Raziel even know whats happening. I'm confused, are you trying to say that because Raziel didnt say he was healing him that the absorbtion is suddenly different from the exact same process that happens later on? Its the same process so the same things happening. Kain was healed. What other reason would you use to explain how Kain was in excruciating pain up until the instant that Kain starts absorbing him where he becomes fine and dandy? There is no other explanation.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Ill go strawman on most of this point, most of your "real life" examples have no comparison to what were dicussing here, we dont know from that how much force in N a raptor is creating or the area of its claw edges. We know cue sticks on the other hand are sharp shards, unlike Bowsers fat claws which are larger as you go down the cone.

Cue tips are not sharp, and pressure comes from the tip, not the body. And what is like Bowsers claws? A stake, which we all know can pierce right into a human body. The force of a stake is going to be less than a bullet. Less than 100x skins limit and the stake gets in, following the rule above. Its more saying that his claws need less then 100x to get fatal results.
And dont ignore my post if you cant answer it.. A thick claw can penetrate 4cm into the body without much force behind it. 500 psi is a fai estimation as its a light, small animal where something like a lions bite would be at 1,000 psi. Eh, may as well use that too; A lions tooth is not sharp, has an increasing body and bites at 1,000 psi at the highest. We know that a lion can deeply pierce and tear a person apart with its teeth, teeth only 10x our skins limit. Wait, why even go to something like a lion? Dogs can make deep wounds with their teeth while only producing 200-400 psi. Only 2-4x and it can the whole tooth in. These are real life examples proving that even 2x skins limit is enough to puncture the body, much more then 'only 2mm'.

Now find any kind of evidence to prove your claims using real life examples or other.

" "Scaling says that if one area is scaled up to a number then the rest is scaled by that number unless stated otherwise." Do you disagree? "

Originally posted by Burning thought
1. What you type is not all that clear thats why, what are you even saying here?

Do you understand that Kains durability is multiplied over skin, while Bowsers attack is divided? force divides over area afterall? yes or no?

2. Well not if the source is widening like bowsers claw. Show me constant J working like this, you cant because when you trip or scrape your knee, or land on something you only make a small amount of damage, rarely do wounds unless much higher in damage go all the way.

3. Heres your old calc;

Bolded where you said Newtons, although I admit, I got more Newtons becaus I just muliplied by 10x10 etc. Your actual number is far less than what I got. The actual pressure calcluation would be 3 166 723.31N over area.

Thats all it is, force over surface area, thats how you get pressure

We did not calculate Raziels claws any other way and their not flat surfaces either. Pressure is N/surface area, thats it. Unless you can find a specific formula that states a cone has some special pressure formula then your talking nonsense. By my calculation, a knife or such has a smaller surface area, therefore across that area on a human, the human is sliced. Your confusion is based around smaller surface areas, on smaller areas of skin vs larger ones. it doesnt matter if the surface areal is on a cone, or a spike, their the same calculation for pressure.

1. **** you English >__>... I'm saying you should use the general practice using Pa as a whole.

Has nothing to do with the point. The figure difference from using Bowser's pressure over area claws on that same area of Kain's skin will be the same if you use it as the whole Pa figure.

2. Actually my example was the ground parallel to the body, Bowser's claws are perpendicular to the body. An easy example of constant J is falling down a rocky hill; the same force for an instance will only scrape, but due to the person receiving constant J the damage is higher. Also dragging death. Constant J is also the process of sanding in a way.
Homework example with meat slices: Take 7 slices of meat (you may choose what type of meat) then prod it with.. a spoon until the top layer splits, then keep applying the same pressure and see the results. The result is that you dont need to change the force, and if you do its a really minor change.

Point not needed as we know that even a 2x skin limit fang can easily penetrate all the layers of skin and more...

3. Emphasis on the word 'old'. The Newtons from the new calc is (((5852248.76*(302.5+9.81))+(3628.73896*20)) = 1.82778839e9 N = Force

Which is about 978x Raziel's Newtons. Keeping in mind that Bowser only needs to have an end Pa result of 2x Kain's skin to start tearing his flesh..

Divide by the Surface Area of 0.000003 m^2 for 6.09262795e14 Pa/0.000003m^2 = 2.03087598e20 Pa.

The Force is what it is unless you can find a reason otherwise. The Surface Area is what it is as the SA is the 'tip' of the object, not the body. This also remains as it is until you find the formula for an objects point angle and not wrongly using a simple area calculation which gives a 'flat face' answer. All the while remembering that the SA using in pressure is the 'impact surface area' AKA the direct area that hits the target AKA the very tips.

Originally posted by Burning thought
As I said, your calculations are based on overhypes from various feats, as you have overhyped them in other threads. Dante hardly controls any of Saviours weight, as a durability feat his sword takes most of the pressure and his strength has been proven to be fairly light, since he needs aid from his bullets to push the sharpest sword at his disposal into Saviours glass orb in his center (which he struggled to get in there). He also has effort pulling swords from his chest, which are put there by quick throws. his stats are nothing special and DMC 3 shows us, his reactions are bested by a slow vergil.

Hmm care to point out anything specific? Note 👆 = things that have been proven before with no one giving evidence against. Yeah that not how force works 👆 Sword also doesnt take the force 👆 Never been proven by anyone 👆 His bullets can destroy 20 tons of rock and high ranking demons in one shot 👆 He didn't struggle at all and would have finished if he didnt have to jump back 👆 Effort as he's took 20 punches from the Savior+ DB and stabbed by his powerful demonic sword, nothing to do with strength 👆 They're more impressive then Kain's 👆 Happened 'after' a fight with the superior Vergil and was already worn out. 👆 But, this is for another thread~

Oh, is this thread back?

Sorry, it's been over 3 weeks and I thought it died. Looking back over whatever I was arguing about, it doesn't seem to be all that relevant to the actual fight. Oh, well.

I'm going to say Bowser's fire breath seals the deal here.

Was reminded of this when studying maths *shudders* just getting my word in.

"If Bowser can get his hands on Kain he wins, if not than probably Kain if his powers work against him." Or fire breath, thats cool too.

Originally posted by BloodRain

You sort of just spammed the obvious here, its not relevent to what i was saying. Your talking about spears, bullets and knives in your examples, this does not cover bowsers claws.

Where you getting the 100x stuff from? the psi area of a bullet which is probably about a 1 mm square tops (probably too high) can do as much as tens of thousands of psi, the human skin can hardly take anything and bullets can get stuck in human tissue, hence why some wounds require bullets to be taken out. wrong his claws are "possibly" greater than the very top layer of Kains skin, nothing to do with his whole body, we cant even begin to calculate that yet.

I used the same calculation as we were doing on Raziels claws, if your claiming theres some new formula then cough it up. All it is, is surface area vs surface area, you keep vaguely implying theres some unique formula.

I did it right the first time, I calculated the surface area of 2mm of kains skin vs 2mm of bowsers claw cone, you get the answer that makes it nigh impossible for bowser to get past Kains skin, let alone deeper.

When? he took no damage hardly when Raziel slashed him with his claws, he got knocked backwards sure but he did not make any pains or grunts.

again, Kain does not absorb any life force, your confusing the whole games plot disasterously so, jeez since you can spam this nonsense maybe ill troll you in a dante thread by inventing storyline features. Kain absobs the wraith blade in the end of the game, in this scene Kains not absorbing anything....theres not a face palm I would bother looking for to cover this butchery of the Lok storyline.

Yes there is, the explanation is that hes not being assaulted or attacked at that instant, hes just holding Raziel there. Before, he was either just been slashed OR Raziel knocked into him, both would cause pain but Raz just resting on him weakly? nah...

Their a very small surface area, their jab can be fairly sharp and painful on a human who can bruise like rotten fruit, whats your point here? considering Kain can take star core pressures unfazed and unbruised I dont get what your trying to do. No, Bowsers claws are nothing like a stake.

There are no real life examples to compare to star core pressure skin, and your looking at far smaller levels of psi vs human skin which cannot take much punishment at all, as I said a minor trip can cause human skin to bleed, as opposed to Kain whos billiosn of times higher. The comparison to Kains skin and a humans when concerning bowsers claws to a lions tooth is a complete red herring of no use.

1.

It has everything to do with the damn point, you dont understand how psi divides over an area on a strike. Bowsers claws have a pressure equel to force/surface area while Kains skin has a multiplication of the area. 1 square mm of Kains skin cannot resist nearly as much as 1 square meter but Bowsers claw over a square meter (assuming it was so large) would do its force divided over the square meter, hence why you get less pressure.

2. On a human, 2x on a human. Big difference.

3. Look up the calculations again, you do not divide pascals which is a unit of pressure over the surface area. You divide the newtons over the surface area. Pressure (pascals)= force (newtons)/area (meters squared) giving you pascals. So I dont know why your dividing pascals by the area.

Well aside for the examples I just gave the whole "weight of saviour" thing is overrated by you, you put effort into caculating its weight but it can carry a lot of its own weight by the time Dante moves from under it. Also nice blowing your own trumpet on all these unbacked points, I can do the same easily but I am not quite so arrogent surprisingly. What the ****, why do you think the swords there? its a surface area, a large one, you ignoring it does not change this. These "high ranking demons" are more or less durability featless tbh, they cant damage eight balls in DMC 3, human made balls of wood, at best lighter metals. Yes, his "grunt" and the fact he took a good second or two is not struggling...you cant argue against the fact he struggles to pull a sword from his chest, which weights what? tens-hundreds of pounds max? damn weak. As soon as vergil actually made a move other than swinging his sword around Dante was down and out, also more impressive than Kains? Kain has durability that makes Dante cry and a combination of moves that make Dantes speed moot and can remove it all together.

Originally posted by The Scenario

Yes because Kains never fought fire before. Ime going to say Kain does a single dimentional teleport, killing Bowser in a blow. Or allows Bowser to hit him, forces Bowsers claws into his body to get him stuck and then bores his eyes out with his fingers. Kain does not need spells or weapons for this fight.

Originally posted by BloodRain
Was reminded of this when studying maths *shudders* just getting my word in.

"If Bowser can get his hands on Kain he wins, if not than probably Kain if his powers work against him." Or fire breath, thats cool too.

Not at all, if Bowser gets his hands on Kain which is impossible anyway he may cause light scratches. Kain just gets an easy win with any of his powers, fire breath will not likely do anything, I dont know how much heat the friction of a star core of pressure makes but I can imagine its higher than singing some trees but as I said, the fire will never touch Kain.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Yes because Kains never fought fire before. Ime going to say Kain does a single dimentional teleport, killing Bowser in a blow. Or allows Bowser to hit him, forces Bowsers claws into his body to get him stuck and then bores his eyes out with his fingers. Kain does not need spells or weapons for this fight.

Well, he hasn't. By canon, I mean, since there are exactly zero cutscenes of Kain interacting with fire in any meaningful way. Very few of his enemies even use fire, or are shown to use it against him, even. There's what? Sarafan and their flaming arrows? Vampire golems? Fire demons? And not one of those in a cutscene, or canonically hitting Kain with anything.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Well, he hasn't. By canon, I mean, since there are exactly zero cutscenes of Kain interacting with fire in any meaningful way. Very few of his enemies even use fire, or are shown to use it against him, even. There's what? Sarafan and their flaming arrows? Vampire golems? Fire demons? And not one of those in a cutscene, or canonically hitting Kain with anything.

Excuse me ? cutscenes are hte only canon? again, your annoying trolling of silly bugger where you pretend not to understand canon despite being told so many times. And you listed a good few there, plus magnus who kind of uses fire in his "incineration". Kain, even at his weakest there defeats him.

Kain with all his powers at his disposal here wont really have any problems. Also as I said, even if Kains resistanceot heat was only a fraction of the energy used in the friction that hit him from Raziels blow it would make him immune to bowsers fire.

Thinking outside the box, kain could probably just crunch bowsers brain with TK with a gesture or less.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Excuse me ? cutscenes are hte only canon? again, your annoying trolling of silly bugger where you pretend not to understand canon despite being told so many times. And you listed a good few there, plus magnus who kind of uses fire in his "incineration". Kain, even at his weakest there defeats him.

Kain with all his powers at his disposal here wont really have any problems. Also as I said, even if Kains resistanceot heat was only a fraction of the energy used in the friction that hit him from Raziels blow it would make him immune to bowsers fire.

Thinking outside the box, kain could probably just crunch bowsers brain with TK with a gesture or less.

I just go by the rules you keep setting, so if you've decided gameplay's canon again, then great. Magnus' incineration kills Kain in one hit if it hits him. Congratulations on your resistance.

Can you please prove that Raziel's strike produced any heat whatsoever? Or that Kain's TK can crush a brain? Remember, Kain would be trying to affect this.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I just go by the rules you keep setting, so if you've decided gameplay's canon again, then great. Magnus' incineration kills Kain in one hit if it hits him. Congratulations on your resistance.

Can you please prove that Raziel's strike produced any heat whatsoever? Or that Kain's TK can crush a brain? Remember, Kain would be trying to affect this.

Their not my rules, whats canon or not has been consistent since I arrived years ago. This includes things that cannot be avoided, e.g. fights with all those things you menstioned, the statues in question shoot homing fireballs and the fire demons breath fire, thats several things that I have seen bowser do and Kain bypasses them. Also I never said resistance or immunity, I just said Kains dealt with it, e.g. every fire attack Bowser has shown. Kain going all out and ruining Bowser with his bare hands=childs play.

Friction causes heat, basic process my tasty chum. Also, Kains TK force is equel to that of moving around fully armoured soldiers and possibly tens of tons and he has proven to be able to reach inside the body to TK blood, therefore logic dictates Kain should be able to pop bowsers brain, his eyes, anything he chooses with a gesture.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Their not my rules, whats canon or not has been consistent since I arrived years ago. This includes things that cannot be avoided, e.g. fights with all those things you menstioned, the statues in question shoot homing fireballs and the fire demons breath fire, thats several things that I have seen bowser do and Kain bypasses them. Also I never said resistance or immunity, I just said Kains dealt with it, e.g. every fire attack Bowser has shown. Kain going all out and ruining Bowser with his bare hands=childs play.

"He's dealt with it" is a poor argument for many reasons. For one, you have no evidence that Kain's ever been hit with fire. You have nothing to indicate how Kain would react to it, as the canon in this instance has no actual details to work with. By this argument, Link has "dealt with" telekinesis, teleportation, soul powers, lightning, lasers, and so on. Do you see the flaw here? Unless you can tell me exactly how Kain has "dealt with" fire, that phrase is worthless. Because so far it seems he was simply never hit. And when he does get hit, by Magnus, he dies instantly.


Friction causes heat, basic process my tasty chum. Also, Kains TK force is equel to that of moving around fully armoured soldiers and possibly tens of tons and he has proven to be able to reach inside the body to TK blood, therefore logic dictates Kain should be able to pop bowsers brain, his eyes, anything he chooses with a gesture.

Yeah, friction also tends to cause sparks and evidence of heat. Please show me Raziel's claws burning anything. Kain has proven he can TK blood, logically blood is the only thing you can actually prove he's able to affect. Good luck proving anything else.

Originally posted by The Scenario
"He's dealt with it" is a poor argument for many reasons. For one, you have no evidence that Kain's ever been hit with fire. You have nothing to indicate how Kain would react to it, as the canon in this instance has no actual details to work with. By this argument, Link has "dealt with" telekinesis, teleportation, soul powers, lightning, lasers, and so on. Do you see the flaw here? Unless you can tell me exactly [b]how Kain has "dealt with" fire, that phrase is worthless. Because so far it seems he was simply never hit. And when he does get hit, by Magnus, he dies instantly.

Yeah, friction also tends to cause sparks and evidence of heat. Please show me Raziel's claws burning anything. Kain has proven he can TK blood, logically blood is the only thing you can actually prove he's able to affect. Good luck proving anything else. [/B]

Not at all, its not the best but a lot of people, SP, BR and even yourself like to say "well its not like links not faced teleportation" or "lits not like links not faced magic before!" and in this case, Kains bypassed through his own means if not less than he has in this thread similiar powers in practice. He doesnt have to be hit by fire for my example here, only that hes defeated beings who use it and as I stated, in similiar ways to Bowser. Its not worthless at all, Kains faced and defeated pretty much exactly the same abilities Bowser has, if he was never hit then, then hows bowser going to hit him? Bowser who is not that fast, not that clever and who has the disadvantage of being against a Kain far more deadly than most threats before.

Thats an assumption that goes deeper depending on materials struck, its just clear Kain can absorb the heat and energy completly for some reason. You cant pretend friction disapeared, its just as much there as any physical scientific reaction. It goes deeper than that, he can tk cells/objects within a body, your counter here would be like saying Link can only move his sword in exactly the same ways he has done in the game ,or Bowser use his abilities in exactly the same combination seen in the games, e.g. only able to breath fire if hes spinning towards mario, or only able to punch rather than claw when flying, its not logical. Theres facts, and then theres logical deductions, you cant seem to make logical deductions hence why you do poorly here. Or at least deductions concerning your opponents character, youve probably made claim to several attacks/abilities that would name you a hypocrite if Bowser has never actually done it by your "logic" that i disagree with.

Also I like how you admitted earlier that what you were argueing was a fat red herring/straw man completly irrelvent to the thread, but when I called you out multiple times for your fallacies you turn the other cheek.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Not at all, its not the best but a lot of people, SP, BR and even yourself like to say "well its not like links not faced teleportation" or "lits not like links not faced magic before!" and in this case, Kains bypassed through his own means if not less than he has in this thread similiar powers in practice. He doesnt have to be hit by fire for my example here, only that hes defeated beings who use it and as I stated, in similiar ways to Bowser. Its not worthless at all, Kains faced and defeated pretty much exactly the same abilities Bowser has, if he was never hit then, then hows bowser going to hit him? Bowser who is not that fast, not that clever and who has the disadvantage of being against a Kain far more deadly than most threats before.

So you do see the flaw in your reasoning, but you're ignoring it. Yeah, Link's faced teleporters and magic before, but it's not like we know exactly what he's done in those situations, disregarding his shown magic resistances. The best either of us are going to get is teleportation won't catch Link off guard because he's seen it before, just like most of Bowser's abilities wouldn't surprise Kain. However, once again you've failed to address the how part of this argument. You don't know how Kain avoided fire before, so you can't say how he'll avoid the fire here; "he's dealt with it" does not counter anything. Again, it just prevents him from being surprised. Bowser, however, does have a much bigger and more continuous flame than what Kain's faced, or just tons of little homing fireballs. Heck, Bowser has thrown fireballs from his hands before. And set himself on fire.


Thats an assumption that goes deeper depending on materials struck, its just clear Kain can absorb the heat and energy completly for some reason. You cant pretend friction disapeared, its just as much there as any physical scientific reaction. It goes deeper than that, he can tk cells/objects within a body, your counter here would be like saying Link can only move his sword in exactly the same ways he has done in the game ,or Bowser use his abilities in exactly the same combination seen in the games, e.g. only able to breath fire if hes spinning towards mario, or only able to punch rather than claw when flying, its not logical. Theres facts, and then theres logical deductions, you cant seem to make logical deductions hence why you do poorly here. Or at least deductions concerning your opponents character, youve probably made claim to several attacks/abilities that would name you a hypocrite if Bowser has never actually done it by your "logic" that i disagree with.

Unless you have actual evidence of Raziel's claws producing heat, you've barely got a case here. Raziel hits stone without heating it up, whereas Bowser has destroyed stone and brick with his flames. It's rather clear that Bowser's flame is superior regardless of what you're saying here. Further, yes, I would argue that Link would only swing his sword in the way he's shown to, or that Bowser is only going to punch, except for the games where he does use claws (which would be Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario), in which case it was shown that Bowser would use his claws (that are also poisoned.) Heck, there's evidence for Bowser biting people. What you're suggesting is something Kain has never done before or really indicated he could do at all. All of my arguments are based on thing Bowser has done before, or shown that he can do. If he could do more things, he would. If Kain could pop eyes or brains, why doesn't he? It would certainly be a useful ability, but no, he sticks to blood only. Logically, if he's never done it, he either can't do it or is unwilling to; both options means he isn't doing it here. Bowser, on the other hand, has been shown to breathe fire in many different ways, such as homing fireballs, short blasts, or continuous streams, in addition to punching, slashing, or stabbing with his claws.


Also I like how you admitted earlier that what you were argueing was a fat red herring/straw man completly irrelvent to the thread, but when I called you out multiple times for your fallacies you turn the other cheek.

It wasn't a red herring, actually, it just got too far away from the topic. What started with vampire durability turned into a discussion of Nosgoth's history and how humans fit into it. That's mostly because you wouldn't accept spears, so it's pretty much your own technique that lead the discussion off track. I mean, look at what just happened: I am trying to argue Bowser's fire breath, and it's already somehow turning into Link's enemies and the limitations of Kain's telekinesis on various organs.

Originally posted by The Scenario
So you do see the flaw in your reasoning, but you're ignoring it. Yeah, Link's faced teleporters and magic before, but it's not like we know exactly what he's done in those situations, disregarding his shown magic resistances. The best either of us are going to get is teleportation won't catch Link off guard because he's seen it before, just like most of Bowser's abilities wouldn't surprise Kain. However, once again you've failed to address the how part of this argument. You don't know how Kain avoided fire before, so you can't say how he'll avoid the fire here; "he's dealt with it" does not counter anything. Again, it just prevents him from being surprised. Bowser, however, does have a much bigger and more continuous flame than what Kain's faced, or just tons of little homing fireballs. Heck, Bowser has thrown fireballs from his hands before. And set himself on fire.

Unless you have actual evidence of Raziel's claws producing heat, you've barely got a case here. Raziel hits stone without heating it up, whereas Bowser has destroyed stone and brick with his flames. It's rather clear that Bowser's flame is superior regardless of what you're saying here. Further, yes, I would argue that Link would only swing his sword in the way he's shown to, or that Bowser is only going to punch, except for the games where he does use claws (which would be Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario), in which case it was shown that Bowser would use his claws (that are also poisoned.) Heck, there's evidence for Bowser biting people. What you're suggesting is something Kain has never done before or really indicated he could do at all. All of my arguments are based on thing Bowser has done before, or shown that he can do. If he could do more things, he would. If Kain could pop eyes or brains, why doesn't he? It would certainly be a useful ability, but no, he sticks to blood only. Logically, if he's never done it, he either can't do it or is unwilling to; both options means he isn't doing it here. Bowser, on the other hand, has been shown to breathe fire in many different ways, such as homing fireballs, short blasts, or continuous streams, in addition to punching, slashing, or stabbing with his claws.

It wasn't a red herring, actually, it just got too far away from the topic. What started with vampire durability turned into a discussion of Nosgoth's history and how humans fit into it. That's mostly because you wouldn't accept spears, so it's pretty much your own technique that lead the discussion off track. I mean, look at what just happened: I am trying to argue Bowser's fire breath, and it's already somehow turning into Link's enemies and the limitations of Kain's telekinesis on various organs.

Well not really, if I ignored it I would not point it out but I like to use some of my opponents tactics and words against them from time to time, the whole "links faced" lines have been brought up, I thought I would try it for Kain. The difference is that I have already listed inumerable reasons from teleporting, mist form or general speed that can allow Kain to avoid being hit, while the link supporter would only state "what" hes faced. Yes I can, the same way he will avoid most things, Ive not seen Bowser use fire in a way thats unique to what Kain has bypassed. Show me this "bigger" and more "continous" flame, the statues can fire homing fireballs and fire demons breathe continious flame and their somewhat larger than the average bowser.

Ive got physics, thats what we use so you constantly doubting that no forces are present just because you dont like them wont help you. I dont recall Raziel canonically hitting stone although it depends on how he hit it. of course its indicated that he can do it, how can you create TK forces inside someones body but not in the brain or in the eye? its logical deduction, also if you claim Link can only do the specific manouvers hes shown in the games, or that Bowser can only do the exact same combos shown in the game without mixing anything up ill take that into account in the future, its not logical and makes little sense since these are not gameplay battles but if thats what you think is right then thats fine by me, dont expect me to do the same for Kain though.

When did he do any of these things in a single scene? each bowser seems to be quite unique, your combining all these things wihch I have yet to see, show me a slashing, fire breathing, flying bowser which seems to have cropped up, based on your logic (bad logic) he cant do all these things unless hes done them all. I dont think theres a single foe in canon Kain would want to cause a brain implosion on but with these fights typically being blood lusted, e.g. both going all out then Kains going to use all his tricks, otherwise Bowsers not using claws, hes using punches since it seems its only the very rarest ocasion he uses his claws.... (sort of indicates they may not be that durable, e.g. capable of taking his full strength and pressure unlike Raziel).

I like how you claim to be argueing Bowsers fire breath when most of your post seems to be trying to silly bugger your way around general logic and canon of a game, you know full well the consistencies and what Kain can do as ive shown it, but you keep bringing up fireballs yet youve shown only one form of bowser, not the one you seem to use the most in this argument breathing fire and most of these forms of attack have trouble hitting a fat plumber. Take the second or first video of Bowsers boss battle in what I assume is Mario galaxy, Mario does not seem to move at any real speed, since this is the only gauge of him since theres no higher source of canon (cutscene) to depict these fireballs from what I have seen, those things move slower than the required human reaction time to just move out of the way....not to mension bowser has to stand stationary to do it...by your logic that is, personally in the same form of logical deduction that suggests Kain can TK his mind, I would say Bowser should be able to move and spit fireballs in this manner considering all he seems to be doing is spitting them out, I doubt moving, even if its slowly should be a chore.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Well not really, if I ignored it I would not point it out but I like to use some of my opponents tactics and words against them from time to time, the whole "links faced" lines have been brought up, I thought I would try it for Kain. The difference is that I have already listed inumerable reasons from teleporting, mist form or general speed that can allow Kain to avoid being hit, while the link supporter would only state "what" hes faced. Yes I can, the same way he will avoid most things, Ive not seen Bowser use fire in a way thats unique to what Kain has bypassed. Show me this "bigger" and more "continous" flame, the statues can fire homing fireballs and fire demons breathe continious flame and their somewhat larger than the average bowser.

Kain takes too long to teleport, gets torched. Kain tries to mist, forgetting that mist is mre vulnerable to fire, gets evaporated. Alternatively, he gets inhaled since he's also vulnerable to wind. General speed, I've yet to see Kain faster than a human. Fine, let's compare what Kain has faced to what Bowser can dish out:

Fire Demon- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI2fE8Oj2v8#t=9m8s

A small jet of fire, by my estimation 6 feet long or so and about that tall at its end. Lasts 1 or 2 seconds.

Fire Golem- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4doi_bGSz3M#t=3m20s

Small fireballs with slight homing. A fire shield Kain can't get close to without burning up.

Bowser- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CLTuA5Agj4#t=9m51s
This one, I estimate being 10 feet long, maybe 7 feet tall, and lasted 3 to 4 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhUragy-MCU#t=5m20s
3 seconds of charging, granted, but much larger and longer lasting than the Fire Demon, being maybe 15 feet long, 10 feet high, and lasting more than 6 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNLSB5k9tuQ#t=2m19s
Again, looking at how much larger these are than the Fire Demon's breath, it's a bit different from what Kain's faced.


Ive got physics, thats what we use so you constantly doubting that no forces are present just because you dont like them wont help you. I dont recall Raziel canonically hitting stone although it depends on how he hit it. of course its indicated that he can do it, how can you create TK forces inside someones body but not in the brain or in the eye? its logical deduction, also if you claim Link can only do the specific manouvers hes shown in the games, or that Bowser can only do the exact same combos shown in the game without mixing anything up ill take that into account in the future, its not logical and makes little sense since these are not gameplay battles but if thats what you think is right then thats fine by me, dont expect me to do the same for Kain though.

Every time Raziel has to move a block to the side, he stabs it with his claws. By your argument, these blocks should be melting, right? Or, there should at least be evidence of heat. Well, since there isn't any I suppose that indicates that there's too little heat to really be noticeable. But if you want to go calculate the exact temperate that the friction of claw hitting flesh would produce, be my guest. I would wager it's under 451 Celsius, personally. Now, then, for telekinesis. Are we sure that's what it was? Kain could control blood long before he ever received telekinesis as a power. I won't make any guesses, but unless you can actually prove that Kain can pop eyes or some such, you're essentially making things up. It's not given as something he can do, despite it being a useful ability, so again: unwilling or unable, those are the choices until you have evidence of Kain popping brains.


When did he do any of these things in a single scene? each bowser seems to be quite unique, your combining all these things wihch I have yet to see, show me a slashing, fire breathing, flying bowser which seems to have cropped up, based on your logic (bad logic) he cant do all these things unless hes done them all. I dont think theres a single foe in canon Kain would want to cause a brain implosion on but with these fights typically being blood lusted, e.g. both going all out then Kains going to use all his tricks, otherwise Bowsers not using claws, hes using punches since it seems its only the very rarest ocasion he uses his claws.... (sort of indicates they may not be that durable, e.g. capable of taking his full strength and pressure unlike Raziel).

Each Kain seems to be unique by that argument. In what games does Kain display all powers he's ever had? Heck, in what 2 games has he even had the same powerset? His abilities vary just as much, so unless you can show me Kain with all abilities, he can't do them all. See how that works? Bowser's the same character, Kain's the same character. They both do different things in different game. I can name 4 different game where Bowser used his claws. I can name several games where he punched things. Heck, I can more games where he did neither and used actual weapons. In the same way, I can name 4 games where Kain never cast a spell. I can name several games where Kain never used a reaver enhancement. It's the same thing, really.


I like how you claim to be argueing Bowsers fire breath when most of your post seems to be trying to silly bugger your way around general logic and canon of a game, you know full well the consistencies and what Kain can do as ive shown it, but you keep bringing up fireballs yet youve shown only one form of bowser, not the one you seem to use the most in this argument breathing fire and most of these forms of attack have trouble hitting a fat plumber. Take the second or first video of Bowsers boss battle in what I assume is Mario galaxy, Mario does not seem to move at any real speed, since this is the only gauge of him since theres no higher source of canon (cutscene) to depict these fireballs from what I have seen, those things move slower than the required human reaction time to just move out of the way....not to mension bowser has to stand stationary to do it...by your logic that is, personally in the same form of logical deduction that suggests Kain can TK his mind, I would say Bowser should be able to move and spit fireballs in this manner considering all he seems to be doing is spitting them out, I doubt moving, even if its slowly should be a chore.

'k, first of all, Bowser has shown the ability to move while breathing fire, he simply doesn't most of the time. In fact, he typically stays still for long streams (except Galaxy 2 where he flies and breathes fire at the same time) but will move or stay still if he's using fireballs. For instance, there's this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhUragy-MCU#t=3m57s

Flying, dropping fireballs like rain, while on fire. Logically, however, because Bowser does not move while continuously breathing fire, he more than likely can't. The only exception to this seems to be when he's flying. Further, I haven't really seen Kain move all that fast, so why does human movement matter?

Originally posted by The Scenario
Kain takes too long to teleport, gets torched. Kain tries to mist, forgetting that mist is mre vulnerable to fire, gets evaporated. Alternatively, he gets inhaled since he's also vulnerable to wind. General speed, I've yet to see Kain faster than a human. Fine, let's compare what Kain has faced to what Bowser can dish out:

Fire Demon- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI2fE8Oj2v8#t=9m8s

A small jet of fire, by my estimation 6 feet long or so and about that tall at its end. Lasts 1 or 2 seconds.

Fire Golem- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4doi_bGSz3M#t=3m20s

Small fireballs with slight homing. A fire shield Kain can't get close to without burning up.

Bowser- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CLTuA5Agj4#t=9m51s
This one, I estimate being 10 feet long, maybe 7 feet tall, and lasted 3 to 4 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhUragy-MCU#t=5m20s
3 seconds of charging, granted, but much larger and longer lasting than the Fire Demon, being maybe 15 feet long, 10 feet high, and lasting more than 6 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNLSB5k9tuQ#t=2m19s
Again, looking at how much larger these are than the Fire Demon's breath, it's a bit different from what Kain's faced.

Every time Raziel has to move a block to the side, he stabs it with his claws. By your argument, these blocks should be melting, right? Or, there should at least be evidence of heat. Well, since there isn't any I suppose that indicates that there's too little heat to really be noticeable. But if you want to go calculate the exact temperate that the friction of claw hitting flesh would produce, be my guest. I would wager it's under 451 Celsius, personally. Now, then, for telekinesis. Are we sure that's what it was? Kain could control blood long before he ever received telekinesis as a power. I won't make any guesses, but unless you can actually prove that Kain can pop eyes or some such, you're essentially making things up. It's not given as something he can do, despite it being a useful ability, so again: unwilling or unable, those are the choices until you have evidence of Kain popping brains.

Each Kain seems to be unique by that argument. In what games does Kain display all powers he's ever had? Heck, in what 2 games has he even had the same powerset? His abilities vary just as much, so unless you can show me Kain with all abilities, he can't do them all. See how that works? Bowser's the same character, Kain's the same character. They both do different things in different game. I can name 4 different game where Bowser used his claws. I can name several games where he punched things. Heck, I can more games where he did neither and used actual weapons. In the same way, I can name 4 games where Kain never cast a spell. I can name several games where Kain never used a reaver enhancement. It's the same thing, really.

'k, first of all, Bowser has shown the ability to move while breathing fire, he simply doesn't most of the time. In fact, he typically stays still for long streams (except Galaxy 2 where he flies and breathes fire at the same time) but will move or stay still if he's using fireballs. For instance, there's this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhUragy-MCU#t=3m57s

Flying, dropping fireballs like rain, while on fire. Logically, however, because Bowser does not move while continuously breathing fire, he more than likely can't. The only exception to this seems to be when he's flying. Further, I haven't really seen Kain move all that fast, so why does human movement matter?

But he does not take too long, how would mist get evaporated? Kain travels over lava and through objects, and even travels in mist form at high altitude but does not get blown away in wind or such, point being Kain doesnt just turn into mist, his particles are small but their far more under his control or endurant than that.

More like 8 feet, the difference between that and the bowser feat is little only the Demon has less charge up since it just breathes while Bowser seems to lift his head a little for a second before doing it, this is still both obvious and predictable, something a human, let alone a vamp can avoid.

as soon as you said 3 seconds of charging I crossed this one off the list, anything that takes time is no good unless stipulations in the thread turn up to make it turn based so kain cant move while he charges.

A bit different? what basis do you have for that? your estimates besides my own only list a few feet in difference in sizes and their all just as predictable, as I said, one mist form or teleport which happen quicker than the fire effect.

By my argument, max strength raziel, not whatever he uses to move those blocks can create a lot of pressure and therefore, frictional heat but I dont know the calculation for heat yet, I cant find anything thats not vague on how to calculate it from pressure. TK is all it could be considering thats the only known power he has to manipulate matter at range, blood shower is a magic spell and is unique. "unwilling" in the situations presented in Lok is possibly most likely, but not in this vs. By your logic, Bowser is unwilling to use claws, he hardly ever does, i think you named like one game where he used them in one attack, possibly not even canonically.

No not at all because each Bowser shows different base stats and abilities, Kain on the other hand gains abilities as he ages, evolves and absorbs powers. Take Bowser in your initial video, not sure whta game that is but he can hold this huge iron ball but hes tiny, but Supermario Galaxy bowser makes small craters in the samll planetoids he fights on yet hes far larger, theres some strange physics and stat changes going on and whats more, not all of them use claws, theres physical reasons why he may not use said abilities since he often has access to plot weapons like the Star rod (is that its name?) for example or the tech/power from the machines/galaxies he made in Galaxy. You also have to take into account some things may be environment based, like how the low gravity on such small planetoids (next to none scientfically) would help him in some of his jumps.

Its not the same at all, because theres no reason to suggest he cant use said items, while I can think of at least one why using high strength and high pressure claws together could end up with him doing more harm to himself than his enemy. Its basic logica/physics while your just trying to pretend swapping the argument around makes sense, your playing silly bugger again?

Why do you show me bowser on fire, raceing around like a maniac? thats another thing about Bowser, when he burns or takes damage he often gets knocked all over the place, he must be both extremely light and possibly even more vulnerable to fire than Kain is since his reaction to being hit or burned seems consistent. It matters because in the words of Umah Vampires are;

JtqZIi8nbOY&feature=relatedt=#2m10s

"stronger and faster than normal men" so being above human speed even at such a basic level (without the ability to move without moving his legs like when he attacks moebius, instantly turn in and out of mist to dodge or teleport).

I could probably dodge half of bowsers attacks, mario who does not seem much quicker than the fat plumber he appears to be can do it, I dont see kain with his plethora of abilities, nay his movement superior speed alone could destroy him with his bare hands.

Also whats marios highest strength feat? it seems consistent that he can knock bowser all over the place....if hes not got some amazing feat it implies Bowser is quite light and would probably get smashed from kains blows.

Originally posted by Burning thought
But he does not take too long, how would mist get evaporated? Kain travels over lava and through objects, and even travels in mist form at high altitude but does not get blown away in wind or such, point being Kain doesnt just turn into mist, his particles are small but their far more under his control or endurant than that.

More like 8 feet, the difference between that and the bowser feat is little only the Demon has less charge up since it just breathes while Bowser seems to lift his head a little for a second before doing it, this is still both obvious and predictable, something a human, let alone a vamp can avoid.

as soon as you said 3 seconds of charging I crossed this one off the list, anything that takes time is no good unless stipulations in the thread turn up to make it turn based so kain cant move while he charges.

A bit different? what basis do you have for that? your estimates besides my own only list a few feet in difference in sizes and their all just as predictable, as I said, one mist form or teleport which happen quicker than the fire effect.

Woo. Every time we trade posts the posts get longer. This is stupid, we should be narrowing things down, not adding more. Now, then, Kain's cutscene teleports take forever, we have established this multiple times. Bowser can teleport in roughly the same time frame. As for mist, in real life it typically only exists in colder areas, what with it being mostly water in the air condensing. It doesn't really last after the sun starts evaporating it. For Kain, Blood Omen features a trap called a Mist Vortex that essentially sucks him in and kills him, but it only works against mist form because the pull is too weak otherwise. Plus, according to the manual Kain takes damage from lava even if he's in mist form. This tells me that fire would still work on him and Bowser inhaling works pretty much like a vortex.

Now, then, what video are you watching? The Fire Demon quite clearly reared back and lifted its head before it starting spewing fire, so that's no different. Bowser will either lower his head or raise it, and the lowering takes less time, as shown in the Super Paper Mario video. Bowser's flame breath is still larger than the Fire Demon's, and if he lowers his head he's faster (raising it is about the same.)


By my argument, max strength raziel, not whatever he uses to move those blocks can create a lot of pressure and therefore, frictional heat but I dont know the calculation for heat yet, I cant find anything thats not vague on how to calculate it from pressure. TK is all it could be considering thats the only known power he has to manipulate matter at range, blood shower is a magic spell and is unique. "unwilling" in the situations presented in Lok is possibly most likely, but not in this vs. By your logic, Bowser is unwilling to use claws, he hardly ever does, i think you named like one game where he used them in one attack, possibly not even canonically.

So you're just arbitrarily deciding that Raziel doesn't use max strength when pushing blocks that he's clearly exerting effort to move? Well, unless you can actually get a temperature, or prove that Raziel is producing heat in any way, you're making things up. Don't you think Kain's cloak would catch fire if there was that much heat? Now, then, the difference between "prove Kain can pop eyes" and "prove Bowser can use claws" is the video evidence. See, I back up my claims. Would you like more?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDAlO_TzTnw#t=3m19s
Tere, another video of Bowser using his claws, featuring a slash and stab combo. Now, if you want to claim that Kain either can or will pop eyes, where is the evidence? Bowser may not use his claws often, but at least I can prove that he does. Why won't you do that?


No not at all because each Bowser shows different base stats and abilities, Kain on the other hand gains abilities as he ages, evolves and absorbs powers. Take Bowser in your initial video, not sure whta game that is but he can hold this huge iron ball but hes tiny, but Supermario Galaxy bowser makes small craters in the samll planetoids he fights on yet hes far larger, theres some strange physics and stat changes going on and whats more, not all of them use claws, theres physical reasons why he may not use said abilities since he often has access to plot weapons like the Star rod (is that its name?) for example or the tech/power from the machines/galaxies he made in Galaxy. You also have to take into account some things may be environment based, like how the low gravity on such small planetoids (next to none scientfically) would help him in some of his jumps.

In what ways are the Bowsers different? One lifts a bug iron ball, yes, and one shoves his fist into a planetoid. Except that Kain tends to vary more than this. Blood Omen, Kain uses weapons, spells, and items. Soul Reaver, Kain just uses the Soul Reaver and displays not one of his previous abilities. Soul Reaver 2, same thing, essentially. Blood Omen 2, Kain has a completely different powerset, and is so weak he needs to use both TK and physical strength at the same time to move objects, and he has several Dark Gifts, of which maybe 2 are ever seen again. Defiance, Kain still uses no spells, none of the good Dark Gifts and instead relies on power ups for the Reaver. There are so many things that Kain does in one game and then completely forgets about that each game is a completely different experience. If you're going to try and limit Bowser like that, at least apply the same standard to Kain.


Its not the same at all, because theres no reason to suggest he cant use said items, while I can think of at least one why using high strength and high pressure claws together could end up with him doing more harm to himself than his enemy. Its basic logica/physics while your just trying to pretend swapping the argument around makes sense, your playing silly bugger again?

I don't even know what you're talking about here, please elaborate. I can't tell, your use of "him" leaves it too vague as to who you're talking about. There's no reason Kain can't use items? No reason Bowser can't? Whose claws would damage them? If Bowser, no, since he's used his claws without harm before. If Kain, we've never seen him use claws. If Raziel, no, because we've seen him use claws without harm. Please be more clear.


Why do you show me bowser on fire, raceing around like a maniac? thats another thing about Bowser, when he burns or takes damage he often gets knocked all over the place, he must be both extremely light and possibly even more vulnerable to fire than Kain is since his reaction to being hit or burned seems consistent. It matters because in the words of Umah Vampires are;

JtqZIi8nbOY&feature=relatedt=#2m10s

"stronger and faster than normal men" so being above human speed even at such a basic level (without the ability to move without moving his legs like when he attacks moebius, instantly turn in and out of mist to dodge or teleport).

I could probably dodge half of bowsers attacks, mario who does not seem much quicker than the fat plumber he appears to be can do it, I dont see kain with his plethora of abilities, nay his movement superior speed alone could destroy him with his bare hands.

Because it's funny and I don't think Kain can dodge it? Bowser on fire can fly and he moves pretty fast, not to mention he's making it rain fire. If he were to ram Kain while on fire, his spikes could do some severe damage while the fire is killing Kain. And what do you mean? Bowser is quite heavy, and has the ability to change his own weight, no matter how physics lacking that is. He has the ability to double his own weight, fly, or even reverse gravity a little. Where are you getting a vulnerability to fire from, though? It can cause him pain sometimes, but then he can do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0SizP0U-uQ#t=5m58s
He spends upwards of 25 seconds ON FIRE and does not react in the slightest to it. The only thing that concerns him are the explosives, which turned out to be unable t harm him. Hardly a weakness, that.

Are you really under the impression that Mario is a normal man? The guy ranges from arrow timer to supersonic, both much faster than normal men, and from what I've seen just as fast as Kain.


Also whats marios highest strength feat? it seems consistent that he can knock bowser all over the place....if hes not got some amazing feat it implies Bowser is quite light and would probably get smashed from kains blows.

Seriously? Mario is darn strong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvHqlNpvfqs#t=3m27s
Lifting a horrendously obese Luigi. I've read that this is 3 tons but can't confirm it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW_NT8Lcr6I#t=4m48s
Dragging a huge iron ball Chomp? This could be up to 900 tons, still in excess of 100 tons if hollow.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3BFcFqQKZY#t=2m44s
Lifting a castle. Who knows how much this weighs?

But regardless, I doubt Kain's blows are good enough to throw Bowser across the country like the explosion I showed you earlier did. Which notably did not even hurt Bowser.

Originally posted by The Scenario

I like how you class a second or less as forevor when Kain does something but when Bowser does something that takes just as long if not longer its "Kain could never dodge this!" when a human could probably do so. Real life mist is not Kains mist clearly, Kains mist is under his control, not anything else and passing wind does not disrupt him, neither does his movement while real mist is quite easily evaporated, Kains remains in all his environments, I cant guess at how powerful the wind vortex trap is. This also tells you that he can survive this damage, not just die instantly and lava is far hotter than Bowsers fireballs which do not seem to do much damage in the vids youve shown me, even bowser himself does not take much damage from him and note, Vortexes and Bowsers breath have something in common, easily avoidable and very short range. Considering kain can move several meters in <second in mist form and instantly go in and out of it, these fireballs and breath attacks are ignorable for Kain.

It gives Kain more than enough time in both examples, the intent is obvious, as I said a human can bypass that, let alone Kain. One mist dodge and kain could be behind Bowser if hes close enough, killing him before he can react or too far to the left or right for the fire to be a problem.

Why would he use full strength when as shown, his full strength is a multiple of that? tbh, he never shows to show full strength at all, that would suggest grunts or struggles which he never does even in his best feats, unlike Bowser. Correction, unless I can actually get a temperature we cannot gauge the exact heat, I cant make anything up unless I pulled a number out of thin air.
I thought you were mr "has to be in a cutscene!" guy? since thats all you talk about concerning Kain yet you show hypocrisy here since neither of these vids is in a cutscene. Also, is that all from one game? so theres only one game of him using claws, does this game hold any strength feats for this bowser?

I just gave examples, ive never seen the stronger bowsers use claws for one, and as I pointed out, difference in base stats like strength and size, very large differences, especially confusing when their stats dont scale. Kain does not vary on a base level, other than the fact technically Kains base stats would vary, and I fully recognise this since each younger Kain is weaker than the Elder, apart from BO2 Kain who is older than BO1 but possibly weaker before the end. I do apply the same standard for the canon, when have I ever claimed BO2 or BO1 Kain can do everything Defiance Kain can do? I never did afaik....while you on the other hand use Bowser as a whole as if hes always capable of everything hes done which is disproven, as hes too weak to do more than make small holes in planetoids despite being many times the size, or rarely uses all his powers, unlike Kain he also seems to have access to power sources, like the star rod that are unique in certain games.

I am saying that the reason Bowser may not use his claws in the games he shows strength in, would be that high pressure at the end of them would smash them, or kill him. I can see a pattern to the stronger bowsers only using their fists, and I have yet to have you show me him using his claws on something durable. Take Raziel, he can take his pressure at his claws, they seem to be damn strong since even Kain deflecting them and all that pressure does not harm Raziel, while Bowser punches almost all the time.

Not fast enough that I cannot observe him with my human eyes, I wonder how slowly Kain will think it looks, slow enough for any one of his spells. Well no, if he were lucky enough to have Kain let him ram him, either his spikes based on the evidence would break and him with them or little to nothing would happen, Kain would just get knocked backwards as if he was punched. Whats the, "bowser is quite heavy" based on but tbh all ive seen is him flying about like hes light, very light indeed.

He did react, he said he was burning, also I dont know how hot those flames are, but the heat of his own fire in the earlier video certainly sent him running in terror.

No not really, you can see in all these videos hes moving the same speed as a normal man, you claiming hes faster argues with the evidence unless you can counter, although you know Mario is just as varied as bowser from game to game, because he has different power sources, like whatever allows him to fly around (those stars?) in Mario galaxy, either that or he just randomly gains it in this story. Each mario, and each bowser have access to game specific feats and abilities, many of which are contradicted later, while Kain is not contradicted, he just seems to either be stronger or weaker but he never gains plot specific power ups that are relevent here. (yes he gains the nexus stone to resist the soul reaver in BO2, but its irrelevent as I say).

The first 2 are pretty useless but the iron ball seems to make him struggle so this is his max w/e it is and the castle is either 12 feet tall or Mario is a giant.

Well no, but Kain would probably use claws/sword so just gut and soul rape him would do, I dont know how much millions of tns of pressure would do to a frail body, probably Bowser woudl burst into piecies on strike or melt.

Woo. Every time we trade posts the posts get longer. This is stupid, we should be narrowing things down, not adding more.

Scene post:
Post 1- 1 line
Post2&3- 3 lines
Post 4- 6 lines
Post 5- 19 lines
Post 6- 24 lines
Post 7- 35 lines

:I Always happens...

-------------------------------------------------

-What do you mean by friction heat exactly? If its the friction temperature generated around Raziel''s claws from air friction then that friction only comes from the speed of his arms and the drag coefficient, not its pressure.

-Bowser's the same guy afaik, just different height with certain items.

-His TK isn't that precise, iirc its only choke-hold or push. Can it do more intricate things?

-And dude, if Mag's fire can one shot Kain its already alluding to his fire weakness. And he cant get past a shield of fire?

-"Bowser may not use his claws in the games he shows strength in, would be that high pressure at the end of them would smash them, or kill him. I can see a pattern to the stronger bowsers only using their fists" Doubt the creators of Mario were concerned about the pressure on Bowser's claws.. He's strong, has claws and has used them. Why make things unnecessarily complicated?

---------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Burning thought
-

If its so obvious you wouldn't be arguing against irl rules.

Originally posted by Burning thought
-
-
-

Once again: Can get stuck in and can be a through-and-through, but when at its full force and doesn't lose force in the air aka close to the target, its always a through-and-through. Now compare the stats; The SA of a bullet is <0.1cm^2. Now, a 0.1cm^2 area with, lets use a 200x skin limit pressure, can fire through about 100cm of the body [From some ballistic tests the bullet penetration from a standing point of was between 40cm-80cm. These are all from a distance of 6ft and less, so I'll use 100cm for point blank.] If 200x = 100cm, 2x = 1cm. Taking into account the effect being sharper then a bullets has on the force needed, its gonna be even less than this. Bullets body angle being around 170° with Bowser's being 60°-40°, 3-4 times the penetrative angle then a bullet. But thats for those wanting exact penetrative figures.
This means that being a few times stronger then Raziel and Bowser will be tearing fatal chunks out of Kain. As Scene demonstrated, you dont even need to do the math to know a 6,000 tonner is going to be stronger then a 300 tonner using the same medium...

Wrong. For Raziel you used the very tips, for Bowser you used a cone because you wanted a formula that covers the rest of the claw. Simple Surface Area is not this formula, the angle of sharpness is.

I'm sorry, I guess I missed the part where you take into consideration how the flesh is effected by the angle of sharpness. For some reason I thought all you did was use the basic method of getting the claws SA. Silly Rain... Seriously now, stop using the method you admittedly made up and go find the real formula. Hey if you can find something online that confirms your method then I'll go with that too.

Originally posted by Burning thought
-
-
-

SR1 scene. Dev's are clearly showing us that Kain can be hurt by Raziel with his claws alone.

Again, missing the point. "I don't really give a damn what exactly was being absorbed into where. You're missing the real point for a small detail." Raziel was being absorbed - Raziel's soul was passing through Kain to reach the Reaver - This event is later stated to heal Kain - We clearly see that Kain was healed. A weak clash wouldnt add to Kain's pain unless his durability was poor. Furthermore, he grunts when grabbing Raziels arm with his own. It would be understandable if Raziel ran into his wound but that's not the case. Oh and go ahead, but a troll thread only works if I respond all annoyed, or even at all~

8:09 Slashed - 8:10 Grunts in pain - 8:16 Still visibly in pain - 8:16 Clash - 8:16 Grunts in pain - 8:21 - Still visibly in pain - 8:21 Starts absorbing Raziel - 8:21+ Perfectly fine.

From 8:09 to 8:21 he's hurting, a whole 12 seconds visibly and audibly in pain. And whats the time difference between his last grunt of pain and absorbing Raziel? 0.3 seconds. Thinking about it I was wrong before, there is another explanation; Despite the fact that Kain was in pain for 12 seconds, it was in that 0.3 seconds that he was able to recover to full strength. Its only a coincidence that Raziel was getting absorbed a split-second afterwards. So there's that, however the chance of that being true is horrible without a few pieces of counter-evidence for the points above and some evidence that Kain was able to recover in the minute amount of time between still being in pain and absorption.

Originally posted by Burning thought
-
-

But still not sharp. Dear lord you've been arguing this and don't know why?... Human scaling and rules of skin limit to penetration. If X pressure can penetrate Y durability, P*100 can penetrate S*100. If a guy has 10 times humans durability then it'd take 10 times human penetrative pressure to achieve the same results. That's whats happening here; Kain has x*human durability so it'd take x*penetrative force.
Geezus, well guess what? A stake, bullet and lions bite dont have Bowser's force either... its about examples and finding the rule&relation of scaling.

I've said this stuff numerous times, write it down so I don't have to repeat it again :/

" " "Scaling says that if one area is scaled up to a number then the rest is scaled by that number unless stated otherwise." Do you disagree? " "

Being the only thing that can prove any of this 'can penetrate this far in' business especially for fictional characters whose exact biology can't be measured. Agree with scaling and the rule it goes by or disagree and give up on your theories.

Originally posted by Burning thought
1.
2.
3.

1. Ok, go find some examples where things are listed as -X Pascals over Y area- and not simply -X Pascals-.

Its even in Morridini's calc. His post summed up:

N+(ma))/ SA^2 = XPa/ SA m^2

(XPa/ SA^2)D = The Pa we use.

D= How many can fit into 1m^2. Its what you do.

Kain's durability over 1m^2 to Bowser's pressure over 1m^2 = Kain's durability over 0.000003m^2 to Bowser's pressure over 0.000003m^2. Exact same difference.

2. Concede to that 'much higher through the skin layers' point then? Human scaling says hi.. Hmm.. Just realized that all your 'higher force needed for the layers' stuff was actually based off human anatomy, basically human scaling... Half on the boat here?

3. Made a typo; Was supposed to put the scale to 1m^ there, not the SA; Meant to be 6.09262795e14 Pa*333,333.333m^2 = 2.03087598e20 Pa /nods.

What I'm confused about is how you still think Bowser's attack is not going to be a great deal higher then what Raziel did...

Morridini's figure of Raziel before scaling up to Pa/1m^2 = 9.06571984e11 Pa over 0.000002064512 m^2
My figure for Bowser before scaling up to Pa/1m^2 = 6.09262795e14 Pa over 0.000003 m^2
-Bowser has 672.051206 times the pressure but 1.45312791 times the area. 672.051206/ 1.45312791 = 462.48592 times the pressure.

Morridini's figure of Raziel after scaling up to Pa/1m^2 = 4.39121683e17 Pa
My figure for Bowser after scaling up to Pa/1m^2 = 2.03087598e20 Pa
-Bowser has 462.48592 times the pressure when at the same area.

^Besides showing that Bowser's higher no matter what comparison you use, it also proves that the above 1. is true.

Originally posted by Burning thought
-

Evidently cannot prove this, nor does where its weight lie matter on impact or pushing calcs. Only if its was a lift would it matter. More like waiting on someone to prove it wrong with calcs.. did you provide evidence and calcs? No? Then keep throwing out weak insults. If you recall the image I provided before is proof that the area of contact matches the area of his hand, making it the same area. Though I doubt you'll recall the image as you didn't address it last time iirc. Really? I'd say being able to fight and not die from Nero is a good enough durability for them. Oh yeah, because its not like he can control the strength of his bullets, or that this was before getting and good levels of control later in the game, and its not like this was 10 years before DMC4... Only due to the pain of taking out a powerful devil arm after 20 DB hits, proven as he can do it effortlessly in DMC1 when not in pain. Yeah, after being exhausted from the fight with him. Thought you meant abilities, in which the devilboy trumps. Even so, the Vamp's only 1/17th bullet speed. Dont need to argue for Mach 15, Mach 1 is more than enough.. Its amusing that right now you've classes the devilboy as physically weaker and slower then humans dispute a dozen superhuman strength feats, obvious bullet timing and a few feats in the Ma10 area.. but I know you're just saying this stuff out of spite so I wont think much of it. Still, for another thread.

-----------------------------------------------------

Oioi, for that acceleration calc.. we sure that its a=2*distance/time and not just distance/time? Because when I did a calc for a bullet of mass 0.007kg, speed 340m/s and roughly a 0.0001m^2 surface area with the site saying it can be up to 235 MPa. This calc is with the acc we use: (((0.007*(680+9.81))/ 0.0001)*10000) = 483 MPa. But when I use distance/time without the x2 it becomes 245 MPa which is much closer. 😕

Originally posted by BloodRain

-Solid material on solid material, pressure is relevent. If something fast and powerful moves across something, its going to generate more heat than something light, I just cant find the calc for it, mostly only fluid calcs.

-different height, stats, items, attacks and at least once with Mario and louigi in him, which also affect what he can do. Theres so many small differences between the bowsers that affect a lot of things he does.

-Its precise enough to affect blood cells though also what do you mean precise? it affects inside the body, can affect something as viscious as a liquid (the brains solid) so inside body, Kain can affect solids as shown and one quick pull and splat....no brain.

-Not really if you take into account this was young Kain and mag does not just use fire, he incinerates inside out and blasts statues and rock into piecies, its half fire and half explosion.

-Because its factual, also who cares about what the creators were concerned about? not sure they gave a damn about any physical rules, they made a jolly little for people to enjoy regardless of physics but were still argueing those rules, they apply to bowser still.

I am not, I am argueing against your poor interpretation of them.

Wheres this from? this whole "through through" nonsense? the way I see, glancing blow, striking too much muscle/bone etc was the cause for bullets being stuck, not air temperature, so where you getting this from? not all bullets are really powerful either. Why do you waste our time by posting bullet stats? A bullet is not alike to bowsers claw, its a much smaller, light object and its fired at incredible speeds into soft tissues, fire it at a tank and it does nothing. What your failing to see is that Bowser does not have the multipe of pressure per area your looking for. If human skin has a Psi pressure resistance of 100 like you said before, then a bullet, per its area of roughply 1 mm^2, even a small one like a 9mm can do as much as;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

39.2k psi, not even sure about surface areas in this, because thats pounds per square inch. If we reduce both down to their pounds per square mm, you get. 0.155 human pressure res vs 60, the funny thing is, I dont think your supposed to divide the guns energy, it does that at impact from its bullet round or at least thats what I think this wiki would do. Thats like 400x required pressure to get past human skin.

Erm what? lol, taking chunks out of Kain? no, it means if his claw was a bullet, and has bullet dimensions it "may" go through Kains body given a bullets speed....I am not sure why you made these bullet calcs then said something completly unrelated and further, yes you do need to do the math, clearly because you dont understand that the difference between Raziel and Bowsers strengths (Raziel not being able to pierce Kain fyi) is not the same differnce between how much pressure they exert.

I got a surface area, if "angle of sharpness" is relevent then I guess we better go back to calculate Raziels claws as well if it makes a difference. I made up? although I would love to take credit for working out how pressure divides over a surface, I can imagine a professor takes credit already. Surface area to surface area is all we need, if you want to claim theres some "angle" involved that aids Bowsers claws (not a bullet) then go find the evidence.

I think Devs clearly showed that Kain being interrupted while doing that cast bothers him, they also showed in the next game, that even retcons the end of SR1 that Kain is immune, further they even put the effort of making an FMV for it, not just used the game graphics which are prone to inconsistency.

Erm no, again you dont understand the game at all, the wraith blade imbued with the souls of all the old balance guardians healed Kain, nothing to do with Raziels actual soul which I dont know why you think is going through Kain, it seems to just be traveling over his body to get to the reaver, you know, the prison that attempts to absorb raziel through most of the games. Go and learn LoK basic facts before you run around, talking irrelevencies, you blunder with LoK basis just as much as the math concerning pressure. You always respond all annoyed, even now 🙂 relax dude.

8:21+, never hit again or under any impact until he loses his heart, in which he certainly isnt fine. He gets hit by impacts, a guy whos just been hit by the wraith blade and shown earlier great pain and weakness from it, kinda makes sense but no! somehow Kain was healed by some magical force only BR knows about and never hinted at in the scene....

Well for a human, sharp and being at a small SA does not need such a difference since without too much force you can shove a pool cue or something of its like into a human. 😆 there is no rule/relation of scaling, your just finding random objects that can pierece humans, theres no rule or relation because these objects have difference pressures, a lot more or less could probably pierce a human, were soft.

Write it down? "sigh" you know what, ill not ask the same of you and save you a few booksworth of A4 sheets from all the things youve ignored/made me repeat. Often uselessly because you think its more interesting to find out a pool cues, raptor claw or bullet pressure/human than Bowsers pressure/Kain....

Scaling does not work the way you want it to work here though. Your "theories" of human comparison are all poor, since a humans body is frail, kains is not and scaling it up does not work when certain pressure constants work differently, e.g. high enough pressure can break atoms or cause disintegration, you get to a point, e.g. below Kains durability where crazy things happen, you cant compare things millions times weaker as if theres some scale that youve yet to prove.

1. 😆 Morridini is talking about surface area of durability, not striking force. And no, what your showing is pressure calculation from a strike, you dont calculate pressure per strike to find out durability over an area from previous data. Here, let me take you by the hand and show you;

Kains durability as i said in 1m^2 is in the millions of bar, Bowsers pressure if he struck an area equel to size of this, would be less bar than if he struck a far far smaller area, hence why bowser punching Kain would do nothing, while bowser using his fat cone claws is going do little more than scratch.

2. Ime the one trying to fish you out of the water and pull you onto the boat, but you keep trying to get onto the island to look at the dinosaurs slashing at humans with pool cues.....

3. wrong, it was;

Originally posted by Morridini

Resulting in a force of N = 3x10^5 *(10+3) kgm/s^2= 3.9x10^6 N = 3.9 mega Newton.

3.9 mega newtons force/ surface area=

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_relationship_between_the_newton_and_the_pascal

You do not divide pressure over surface area to find pressure 🙄

So, lets actually do the real math rather than playing about with your general claims that boil down to "well bowsers stronger than raziel! he must be able to pierce Kain!"

The following uses your new force for Bowser, ill look at how likely its true later, but for now;

Bowsers pressure;


Bowser MATH

This working uses the following cone calculater to find SA for Bowsers 3 claws;

H of cone= 0.0787401575 = 0.2362204725 (2mm in inches, per 2mm of skin)
R, radius of cone base= 0.2 = 0.6, rough estimate, the base of Bowsers whole claw is likely a few inches, but for just 2mm, the base has to be taken from 2mm down the claw.

area of 1.58048 in2 for one of Bowsers claws but for all 3 its 4.74144 in2

Now we have surface area per 2mm, lets attempt the calculation of Bowsers pressure-

Force= Bloodrains estimate of 1827788390 newtons/ 4.74144^2 inches in meters^2=

1827788390/ 0.00305898743 (above inches in meters^2)=

597514187889 pascal or 5975141.87889 bar (5.9 million bar)

Over less than the same area, Kains resistance per square inch=

Kain has 2924419904.62499982118 bar (2.9 billion bar, roughply 800 times the earths core pressure) of resistance to pressure per square inch. Or 21207563 tons (21.2 million tons) per square inch of force.

So in 4.74144^2 inches, Kain has= 13865961513 bar (13.8 billion), this is over 2000 times bowsers capacity.

This uses the previous morridini calculation in the math thread, please go there for the source math for these figuires, I am not typing it all out again 😛

As shown above, Bowsers pressure is nothing on Kains durability and most of these are not even my numbers apart from the cones area, you can argue that if you like but I dont see the point, even 1 square inch of Kains skin as shown above is many times Bowsers capacity, using your force.

Originally posted by BloodRain

Below is some rough math on your human scale theory just to humour you but I dont know why you brought it up, human anatomy although simliar to kains is so vast in different statistic and is soft, many things can puncture it, your comparing what "can" puncture a human vs what "cant" puncture Kain (Raz claw). If we had what can puncture Kain, your argument on human scaling may be better but heres what I found;

Human scale-

100 PSI= 100x 4.74144^2 inch= 474.144 PSI in the area of Bowsers claws. The following will be based on pascal so to keep numbers clear, 474.144 PSI is the same as 3269107.663008 pascal.

Kain by comparison has 1386596151300000 pascal in the same area using above information so Kain, per same area of human skin has roughply 424151265 (424 million) times the resistance of human skin in the same area.

A bullet, that can pierce a human has nearly 400x as much force than the area it is affecting, although true it takes less than a bullet to pierce a human, Bowser cant even get enough force to begin damaging Kain, let alone 400x.

I think I have in the past, all I really had to show was the fact Saviour had its other arm in a stable position as well, it wasnt Dante holding it up there....also what are you talking about with the "hand area" nonsense? Saviours fist strikes Dantes sword, not Dante or his hands, pressure/ surface area across a large flat blade. Erm no, a vague and useless statement, no durability feats I take it then. If you want to provide proof for Dante controlling his bullets each and every time he uses them then go ahead, until then Dante just fired his guns and they could not damage eight balls, their weak guns, the only time I see Dante fireing powerful bullets is when they glow when he charges them up or does jackpot, this did not happen in the scene were talking about. Show me these hits, Dante seemed fine, he was struggling to pull it out, if all it takes is a few hits to knock Dante from the strength you claim, to not being able to fight suction from a sharp blade in his small body then hes pretty weak. Dante has few abilities so I dont know what your talking about here, base stats are low, his highest stat being cockiness 🙂 Dantes neither mach 15, barely mach 1 at full run I would say, although as i said, vergil who was just using a basic technique at just over human speed knocked Dante off balance.

I never said physically weaker or slower, the game showed him weak and slow regardless of how compared to a human in the game. You cant ignore the facts just beacuse you want to throw around made up numbers of your own when a few things we can gauge just by looking at them disprove you. Hes soft because Nero can toss a sword into him with ease at minimal range and Neros not that strong plus I think lady in DMC3 penetates his chest with bullet fire, hes weak because he can barely pull a sword from his body or push the sharpest sword in his verse (Yamato) through a glass orb (which took only a few bullet rounds to succeed in where his strength failed, if we look at bullet pressure again, thats not much, a few tens of thousands of PSI). Also, I would like to see Dante hitting mach anything with his feet off the ground due to TK....if Dante has any useful stat or trait, Kains got a better one or an easy counter with some instant kill abilities and spells that will make Dante nothing in seconds.

I dont know, I was just using was morridni/dadumon said. Be clear on what bullets your using, caliber and gun fireing.