Is it so hard to understand that without more feats to say how strong manhattan is there isn't a point to him fighting surfer. Surfer can't say he's definitively stronger just because Manhattan's power has yet to reveal a limit
753 The other characters assumptions that Manhattan couldn't stop the nuclear war were still based on Manhattans false assumption.
Originally posted by Uriel005
Is it so hard to understand that without more feats to say how strong manhattan is there isn't a point to him fighting surfer. Surfer can't say he's definitively stronger just because Manhattan's power has yet to reveal a limit
Originally posted by Uriel005
Is it so hard to understand that without more feats to say how strong manhattan is there isn't a point to him fighting surfer. Surfer can't say he's definitively stronger just because Manhattan's power has yet to reveal a limit753 The other characters assumptions that Manhattan couldn't stop the nuclear war were still based on Manhattans false assumption.
We base it on top feats and as is:
SS feats >>>>> Dr M's feats.
So, what you're saying is that Manhattan was WRONG in his assumption that he CAN'T
So I guess you know better, right?
Originally posted by 753
Actually, he's gone to the astral plane a lot. He fought mephisto there too. He would not be self-BFRing because it would only take an instant and regardless of how long it took, his astral form would remain engaged in battle just the same. I doubt DM would manage to dstroy SS's body while his mind is under a, for all intents and purposes, instantaneous attack. SS is far more durable than anything DM ever encountered too and hecould just leave a forcefield surrounding him before taking to the astral plane.
1. The moment he leaves it is self BFR, doesn't matter how long.
2. Also it is a one time feat.
3. Also SS needs to concentrate on doing it. This leaves him open for attack. SS can't block a teleport by Dr. M. No forcefield would suffice.
4. Dr. M can just teleport SS's molecules to different locations.
Originally posted by AmbientNo he hasn't. There was energy SS couldn't replicated. Do some more reading. Never has never implied nor stated for SS to do such things, otherwise SS would have easily beaten Thanos with Drax type energy.
Surfer pretty much has been able to replicate any forms of energy his ever encountered, and has been implied to be able to convert/transform any form of energy to his liking. So borrowing Uriel005 logic here, its pretty much possible for Surfer to make all forms of energy, going even farther its been stated that Surfer would pretty much be the one to finally put an end to Galactus - it could be speculated that his power would probably grow to a point where it would dwarf that of his master - heck lets even go farther Galactus can probably = eternity @ full power could potentially mean Surfer = Eternity 🙄 .. So what im trying to say is even if we are going implied power Surfer still beats Dr. ManhattanImplied power set without feats to back it up = useless in debates = auto loss...
Being stated is not the same as being shown. A statement to be accepted has to be acceptable. Surfer posing a threat to Galactus is hogwash. Also you just can't state these things without scans. You must post scans for various reasons.
SS has no way to beat Dr. M
NONE!
Dr. M can easily beat SS though.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210This is not understandable. Please revise this to clear English.
No, he doesn't read up more on how DM's future seeing works before pulling stuff out of your @$$ pls.
My logic is sound. SS can't make all forms of energy.
LOL at you stating that Ozzy could duplicate thru money and Watchmen Universe science energies that the Surfer cannot. Your fail logic knows no end.
You're saying that Dr. M can bullrush and beat the Surfer within a few minutes??? LOL. Got proof this would happen?
No if SS conscious leaves then he leaves. The body means nothing without the consciousness. One is not there body, otherwise Flash would have still been in the JL watchtower when Lex Luthor switched minds with him. But that wasn't Flash but Lex Luthor in Flash's body. Also you are forgetting its a one time feat.
No, it's not. It's a different state of being. His BODY is still in the physical plane, only his anima/soul moves to the Astral Plane. Technically, this means that he is still in the battlefield. Stop being so desperate. It's pathetic.
He's not recreating himself from nothing but from the ambient energies of space and time. No one can create something from nothing. That's illogical.
No it's not. Reforming after he got dispersed is as good an explanation as any. Thing is, you have no proof that he manages to recreate himself from nothing and THEN you are extrapolating/pulling out abilities from your A$$ based on abilities you can't even prove.Classic H1 fail logic.
This goes for Surfer creating ALL forms of energy and being able to assault Dr. M from the Astral Plane (Dr. M might beat him at that game). With that said, It's been shown and implied by the writer that Dr. M reformed himself at will. That means he learned how to do it over time and can now do it anytime he wants.
A lot of characters can grow new body parts and not know how they're doing it. The fact of the matter is, unless they've PROVEN ON-PANEL that they can do something, one shouldn't extrapolate new abilities based on a FAIL assumption on FAIL knowledge of how his powers work exactly.
Then I guess Superman nor Surfer would be able to do the feats they have done based off the small amount of ambient energy that surrounds them.No. You can only make up to how much your stamina allow, how much time you had and how much ingredients were available.
No-limit fallacy FAIL.
1. Again, is NOT a self-BFR scenario as per the rules.
2. Dr. M has never destroyed anything with the Surfer's durability or performed any attacks that has done damage beyond what the Surfer has been EASILY able to tank in the past.
3. Surfer has been to the Asrtal Plane more than once and has shown his abilities there more than once. [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by The Nuul
H1 gives good laughs, he sould be a comedian.Anyways....the featless wonder loses.
Dr. M feats that prove he can win is his teleportation ability, cloning ability, and growing ability.
Dr. M feats that prove he will not lose is his teleportation ability, phasing ability, cloning ability, and reformation ability.
Originally posted by h1a8
No he hasn't. There was energy SS couldn't replicated. Do some more reading. Never has never implied nor stated for SS to do such things, otherwise SS would have easily beaten Thanos with Drax type energy.Being stated is not the same as being shown. A statement to be accepted has to be acceptable. Surfer posing a threat to Galactus is hogwash. Also you just can't state these things without scans. You must post scans for various reasons.
SS has no way to beat Dr. M
[B]NONE!
Dr. M can easily beat SS though. [/B]
Can't agree with you there. I think the surfer can beat Manhattan I'm just not exactly sure how he would and I couldn't say Manhattan comes out on top. I'm just saying that Manhattan is an implied powers kind of guy like LT, completely different scale but for the universes they are in the situation is similar in that most of the powers they have we never really see its just understood they are powerful as all hell compared to other characters in their respective universes.
I just don't know what Manhattan's limitations are because I'm pretty sure that Manhattan could stop the nukes because as I said before which seems to keep getting ignored is that all the speculation that he could not stop the nukes came from his Ozzy blocking his vision in his belief that Osterman couldn't stop the war which in turn caused him to doubt himself causing everyone else to got bat$hit saying OMG Dr. Manhattan no longer effective nuclear deterent WTF!!!
Anyways I don't think that Manhattan is going to stomp surfer by any means whatsover. He may not be able to win at all but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and say he may be able to pull as much as a 7/10 depending on whether or not clones remain at full power and how much power he is actually able to direct at surfer. In all likelihood SS would take this but as I said Manhattan has only had a very short showing of his powers and would need to be expanded on in order for a decision to be made.
Originally posted by h1a8
No he hasn't. There was energy SS couldn't replicated. Do some more reading. Never has never implied nor stated for SS to do such things, otherwise SS would have easily beaten Thanos with Drax type energy.
Originally posted by King Kandy
When has SS ever failed to replicate a certain kind of energy? There are some forms he never TRIED to duplicate, but I don't think there's ever been one single instance he tried to create a kind of energy, and didn't find himself up to the task. As for Drax it is not even known if him beating Thanos had anything to do with his energy signature, all that's said is that he was created to defeat Thanos, and somehow had the means to do so.
was the energy signature Drax had. Will look for scans.
Originally posted by h1a8Nope adn like I said, he'd remain in battle.
[B]1. The moment he leaves it is self BFR, doesn't matter how long.
2. Also it is a one time feat.No, it's not. You are talking out of ignorance as usual, go to his respect thread as you don't read his comics
3. Also SS needs to concentrate on doing it. This leaves him open for attack. SS can't block a teleport by Dr. M. No forcefield would suffice.nothing indicates it, you obviously never read in thy name
4. Dr. M can just teleport SS's molecules to different locations.lulz
Originally posted by h1a8How would manhatan evee cacomplist that huh? even if we assume your idea that he could grow to amp or make copies of himself, there is nothing any of them demonstrated that when thrown at the SS could down him. DM's demonstrated power output was nowhere what the SS can tank and dish out.
No he hasn't. There was energy SS couldn't replicated. Do some more reading. Never has never implied nor stated for SS to do such things, otherwise SS would have easily beaten Thanos with Drax type energy.Being stated is not the same as being shown. A statement to be accepted has to be acceptable. Surfer posing a threat to Galactus is hogwash. Also you just can't state these things without scans. You must post scans for various reasons.
SS has no way to beat Dr. M
[B]NONE!
Dr. M can easily beat SS though. [/B]
Originally posted by Uriel005No it wasnt, it's only to sally, after she asks him what will happen, that he reveals the moment he goes down to earth to walk in the snow and see everything destroyed. The others drew their own conclusions about it.753 The other characters assumptions that Manhattan couldn't stop the nuclear war were still based on Manhattans false assumption.
DM himself just wasnt clear and didnt even care about what would happen.
Originally posted by King KandySomeone can't do something is accepted truth unless been shown (in some form) otherwise.
When has SS ever failed to replicate a certain kind of energy? There are some forms he never TRIED to duplicate, but I don't think there's ever been one single instance he tried to create a kind of energy, and didn't find himself up to the task. As for Drax it is not even known if him beating Thanos had anything to do with his energy signature, all that's said is that he was created to defeat Thanos, and somehow had the means to do so.
This burden of proof falls more heavily on the party that makes an ontologically positive claim.
It is an ontologically positive claim that SS can create ALL forms of energy, those from his universe and all other universes. It is also and ontologically positive claim that SS can sense the weakness (if it exists) of ALL beings, in his universe and all others.
Lastly if it wasn't drax's energy signature that did Thanos in then Thanos is far weaker than some people are saying.
Originally posted by 753
Nope adn like I said, he'd remain in battle.
No, it's not. You are talking out of ignorance as usual, go to his respect thread as you don't read his comics
nothing indicates it, you obviously never read in thy name
lulz
He is not his body alone. His concious is more him than his body anyway. It can be argued that if his body leaves but conscious stays then he really didn't leave. But it can't be argued that if his conscious leaves but body stays that he didn't leave, because he did.
Prove me wrong then if I'm talking out of ignorance. Show me more than once where he left his body at will in battle to go and attack someone on the Astral Plane.
The scan's indicate it. I read the scans not the comic.
Originally posted by 753SS can't tank his molecules from being teleported apart. Even if he could then SS still doesn't have a way to beat Dr. M.
How would manhatan evee cacomplist that huh? even if we assume your idea that he could grow to amp or make copies of himself, there is nothing any of them demonstrated that when thrown at the SS could down him. DM's demonstrated power output was nowhere what the SS can tank and dish out.
Originally posted by h1a8
This is not understandable. Please revise this to clear English.
It's very simple english.
Originally posted by h1a8
My logic is sound. SS can't make all forms of energy.
Your logic rarely ever sound.
Surfer has been able to create enough types of energies to be able exploit weaknesses and create special effects in the past. It is not beyond him to replicate something a normal human has been able to do.
Also, what you're saying is that: If someone has not been able to do something specific on-panel, then one must not claim he can?
This from the guy who claims that Dr. M can make copies of himself that retain all his abilities. Something that he's never really demonstrated on-panel.
Hypocrisy much? Does the "h" in your name stand for "hypocrite"?
Originally posted by h1a8
I didn't imply that Dr. M would bullrush him. He can attack him other ways. Yes SS would be dead within a minute if he just sat there and let Dr. M attack him.
HAHA. So you have PROOF that Dr. M can generate enough form to harm the Surfer, right?
Originally posted by h1a8
No if SS conscious leaves then he leaves. The body means nothing without the consciousness. One is not there body, otherwise Flash would have still been in the JL watchtower when Lex Luthor switched minds with him. But that wasn't Flash but Lex Luthor in Flash's body. Also you are forgetting its a one time feat.
Haha. Desperate as always h1. His body never leaves, hell it's still exactly where it was. His soul is also where the body is (heck he can even SEE his own body while in soul form), it's just at a different state.
Your logic sucks as always and as always, you'll grasp at any straw no matter how stupid it is.
You're always good for a laugh, h1.
Originally posted by h1a8
He's not recreating himself from nothing but from the ambient energies of space and time. No one can create something from nothing. That's illogical.
You're right. IT IS ILLOGICAL. That means the person who posted this MUST be a total failure:
Originally posted by h1a8
3. Yes I have. They all have the same makeup. Same makeup means same power. Dr. M can create himself from nothing.
Let's all just point at him and laugh our asses off....
Originally posted by h1a8
This goes for Surfer creating ALL forms of energy and being able to assault Dr. M from the Astral Plane (Dr. M might beat him at that game). With that said, It's been shown and implied by the writer that Dr. M reformed himself at will. That means he learned how to do it over time and can now do it anytime he wants.
Energy that was easily duplicated by Ozy and Surfer has shown that he crate almost all types of energy he needs. This has been shown countless times ON-PANEL
While you are simply claiming that Dr. M can just manufacture as many copies of himself as he wants (each with equal amounts of power). Something he's never been proven to do on-panel.
Yeah, it's funny how badly you FAIL to see the absolute fail of your own argumentations.
Originally posted by h1a8
Then I guess Superman nor Surfer would be able to do the feats they have done based off the small amount of ambient energy that surrounds them.
Strawmanning. This neither covers nor addresses my statement at all.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
1. Again, is NOT a self-BFR scenario as per the rules.
2. Dr. M has never destroyed anything with the Surfer's durability or performed any attacks that has done damage beyond what the Surfer has been EASILY able to tank in the past.
3. Surfer has been to the Asrtal Plane more than once and has shown his abilities there more than once.
You never covered thse Points of mine btw.
Originally posted by D_Dude1210
Dr. M feats that prove he will not lose is his teleportation ability, phasing ability, cloning ability, and reformation ability.
Haha. No it doesn't.
Originally posted by h1a8
No he hasn't. There was energy SS couldn't replicated. Do some more reading. Never has never implied nor stated for SS to do such things, otherwise SS would have easily beaten Thanos with Drax type energy.
Yes it has been stated/implied on panel and what the heck does Drax defeating Thanos got to do with energy manipulation, i am quite in a loss there..
Originally posted by h1a8
Being stated is not the same as being shown. A statement to be accepted has to be acceptable. Surfer posing a threat to Galactus is hogwash. Also you just can't state these things without scans. You must post scans for various reasons.SS has no way to beat Dr. M
[B]NONE!
Dr. M can easily beat SS though. [/B]
You should apply that to the point your trying to put across, so rather than speculate regarding Dr. M suppose implied power set put up some factual feats otherwise your just making a fool of yourself..
Manhattan gets mindraped for an easy win..
Originally posted by h1a8
Someone can't do something is accepted truth unless been shown (in some form) otherwise.This burden of proof falls more heavily on the party that makes an ontologically positive claim.
It is an ontologically positive claim that SS can create [b]ALL
forms of energy, those from his universe and all other universes. It is also and ontologically positive claim that SS can sense the weakness (if it exists) of ALL beings, in his universe and all others.Lastly if it wasn't drax's energy signature that did Thanos in then Thanos is far weaker than some people are saying. [/B]
Originally posted by King Kandy
Alright, then show your positive claim that Manhatten can harm Surfer. What has he ever damaged that was close to Surfer's durability.
My point comes in again there is no basis for comparison the forum fight between Manhattan and Surfer cannot be decided based on what showings Manhattan has had. There may not be proof that Manhattan can hurt Surfer but vice versa there is no proof that soul attacks, energy drains or psy effects would do anything to Dr. Manhattan. Hell Watchmen doesn't even clarify if the people in the universe have souls. I mean psychic effects and psychics are proven because Ozzy did kidnap psychics to replicate there abilities for the big mutant things which killed people when they died from the teleport via psychic wave but whether or not it would do anything to John has never been established otherwise Ozzy would have just used one to mind nuke dr. manhattan.