Housetow. Image 3 of 3.
A scene that suggests why Wondy was once a popular favorite for so many ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Wonder Woman #89, Volume 1
Writer: Robert Kanigher
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: April 1957
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Wonder_Woman_Vol_1_89
Hmm.
Think I got just about everything on your list so far ... ?
Let's give you one, then.
Mainly because I remember Superman being a jerk in some movie or other doing this and am wondering if there's a story in his comics it was taken from.
Leaning Tower of Pisa. But maybe not for long. Image 1 of 2...
The straight ... Tower of Pisa.
Image 2 of 2.
This story is also from Wonder Woman #89
(ref info given above in first post on this page).
Two things of note:
1) Parallel world. Apparently, a very popular story device during this time.
2) Narration. Even though Wonder Woman by now has far greater strength feats under her belt than the mere straightening of a building, the author nonetheless says it takes ALL her strength.
One hallmark of Golden Age Wonder Woman seems to be that her strength was always nearly exactly equal to whatever her challenge proved to be at the moment.
Note how this is consistent with Marston's idea of Diana more or less willing herself to the strength level needed ...
or watched over by a Pantheon who made that wise determination and the necessary adjustments FOR her...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
No doubt if I WERE trying to argue durability, you'd have me on this one.
I'm not; I've conceded that Superman has enjoyed a greater degree of invulnerability than Wonder Woman from the start.On the other hand, despite what I've posted of Wonder Woman getting knocked out from gassings or clockings, it's worth noting that she DOES demonstrate a degree of toughness that would be hard to explain without some degree of divine blessing at work in her.
It's worth noting her speed is described as "faster than light" here ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
... and it's also worth noting that even this early in the series, Wonder Woman, quite lacking in anything resembling comic book flight as we know it today, nevertheless manages to find herself on other planets.If I'm feeling particularly ambitious, I might try to construct a comparative timeline. This is only issue 12 for Wonder Woman for instance. It was issue 38 for Superman performing the same feat.
On the other hand, Superman preceded Wonder Woman in his world debut by a few years. If he did this first, her smothering a bomb goes with the idea of Marston matching what the boys at Action were doing.
If SHE did this first, the upgrade of the bomb to pocket atom bomb might well be an instance of what you alluded to earlier, of writers competing with one another for the biggest and best feats, with Superman's staff trying to top the people at National.In any case, it's interesting to see how closely the action of one reflects that of the other.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Wonder Woman #12, Volume 1
Writer: Joyce Murchison
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: Spring, 1945
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Wonder_Woman_Vol_1_12
I was not talking about durability but showing how his muscles contained an atomic explosion to a harmless fire cracker.
I know He is more durable than her and that will not be a fair contest.
I will post some scans today trying to match or surpass yours but please remember, I am only up to 1942 and I still have a lot of years to cover, which I will be doing along the way as this progress.
I will keep in mind the ones I miss and try to cover all of them.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
I'm interested in your rationale here.
Evidence-wise, I don't see how you can make that judgement.
Going by Idlesen's statement, your position seems even less secure.I should make clear that I'm only relating what has been told to us in interviews to this point, though.
Certainly I can think of several reasons why Kara WOULD be stronger than Clark in DCnU's reality, but I'm not actually saying that what passes for "actual" EVIDENCE in the comicworld "proves" that case so far.I AM interested in hearing why you seem so certain about YOUR verdict, however.
I already posted the scans of DCnU You can read them and see the context behind and how Supergirl bounces off Superman's chest like a fly.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Noteworthy to me, something I cannot forget, in fact, is that Loeb's arc was SUPPOSED to end with Supergirl #6, NOT Supergirl #5.
The abrupt change in tone, along with the miscues and other writers' comments in surrounding books, lead me to believe that Loeb did not intend his "Power" arc to end that way.On the contrary -- if we're talking 2004 to 2008, I'm VERY interested in getting into Supergirl versus Superman. (2008, when Sterling Gates takes over, however, features a MAJOR retcon, where-in Supergirl is de-aged by 2 years, apparently has experienced some mutations due to extreme radiation poisoning, and suffers "true" hallucinations which throws into doubt everything done by the previous 5 creative teams.
Logic can't easily withstand THAT kind of re-structuring of history.)
Funny You mentioned Loeb and I have the perfect example to show you how She is not stronger than him by Loeb's hand
Now compare the effort of how many characters it takes to free Superman from the Source Wall
(Some of my links are broken for some reason, but I will keep an eye on those, for this past link use the first two examples)
Now please explain me How is she stronger? If Superman can do it alone and it takes 5 Supergirls to do the same.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
[i] For that matter, still more on topic, I would actually LIKE you to "cherry pick" as you earlier warned you might do for Wonder Woman.I want to see what it is that's giving you such a low opinion of her, or at least people like P.R. I'm fairly convinced that most of the arguments against her deal with issues quite different than what I'm talking about.
I'm nearly equally convinced most of those arguments are actually fallacies, waiting to be exposed.But I'm not yet 100% sure they're all really bad or biased arguments.
I know that there are gaps in my reading record, same as is true for nearly every other fan.
Hard for that not to be the case when so many artists have written so many takes on these two over a span of so many years (7 decades at last count?)
Which is why I'm essentially showing you my reading background in REGARDS to Wonder Woman versus Superman, to see if there's something genuinely relevant that I may have missed.
Won't know till you show me, though ...
I don't like to cherry pick, is a cheap tactic to prove a point. I rather show High end feats with limits. It makes a better case.
And I can really cherry pick if I want too, to make a character look bad, well in some cases is now even cherry pick but plain lowballing with out any sort of context, I have seen a lot of people doing it for Superman and I don't really like to do it for other characters unless I'm feeling like feeding the trolls.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Quite all right.Doubtless, given the gaps in my collection, I'll run out before you do.
I'm mentally planning some trips to the local library to search archives when that does happen; I'll have to figure a way to get relevant scans from their materials in a format that can be uploaded here once it does.In the meantime, I'll continue with a few of the remaining matches I've yet to make for your previous submissions from what I DO have available ...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Image 2 of 4.The Music of Carola.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Scan 3 of 4.The Music of Carola.
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The Music of Carola. Image 4 of 4.Part of this selection is to match your earlier submission of Superman tugging one of those Great Lakes boats with a line of rope by his teeth.
As you can see, Wonder Woman was wont to do similar feats, probably more of them, actually, since rope was, and nearly always is, readily at hand for her ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: Wonder Woman #32, Volume 1
Writer: Robert Kanigher
Penciller: Harry G. Peter
Date: November 1948
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Wonder_Woman_Vol_1_32
I was not even aiming for his teeth strength, but to show how He lifted Two Huge ships from the bottom of the ocean to the sky, moving them while they are floating with his teeth is a secondary feat. While a nice feat it gets overshadow by lifting an ocean freight with each one of your hands.
Still if you want a few more
World's finest #6 1942
Superman fights Matalo at the bottom of the ocean, the side effect of their fight caused waves so big that great liners get tossed like toys
Here is another one
Superman lifts a submarine Superman #12, this was even before Wonder Woman was born
But that is not all, Superman wrestles an ocean monster (compare the monster to the submarine)
Here He lifted another Submarine Superman #12
Here He lifts another ship and swims so fast that He splits the ocean Superman 15 1942
Lifted a loaded Noa's arc AC #45 1942
This were common feats for Superman at that time
Please not Your ship feat was 1948 this are 1941 and 1942 feats
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
Hmm.Think I got just about everything on your list so far ... ?
Let's give you one, then.
Mainly because I remember Superman being a jerk in some movie or other doing this and am wondering if there's a story in his comics it was taken from.
Leaning Tower of Pisa. But maybe not for long. Image 1 of 2...
Originally posted by bluewaterrider
The straight ... Tower of Pisa.Image 2 of 2.
This story is also from Wonder Woman #89
(ref info given above in first post on this page).Two things of note:
1) Parallel world. Apparently, a very popular story device during this time.
2) Narration. Even though Wonder Woman by now has far greater strength feats under her belt than the mere straightening of a building, the author nonetheless says it takes ALL her strength.
One hallmark of Golden Age Wonder Woman seems to be that her strength was always nearly exactly equal to whatever her challenge proved to be at the moment.
Note how this is consistent with Marston's idea of Diana more or less willing herself to the strength level needed ...
or watched over by a Pantheon who made that wise determination and the necessary adjustments FOR her...
Superman has always been kind of a jerk until post crisis that He became extremely a boy scout. I'm actually collecting his scans of being a douche 😄
WW#89 1957, OK I have something for that.
World Finest #5 1942
And I remember You posting WW stopping a train
Superman 17 1942
Opening a huge door Superman #17 1942
Stopping a train AC36 1941 Before WW
Opening a vault door AC 38 1941 Before WW
And sometimes If I make a mistake posting issue # is better if you guide yourself with the scan issue # rather than my post.
Gotta go for now.
Sorry if I don't respond to all of your scans, but like I said I'm only up to 1942 and I still have a lot of comics to go.
Originally posted by biensalsa
Please [note that your] ship feat was 1948 ...
[these] are 1941 and 1942 feats
I begin to see how things can seem to conspire even when there is no deliberate intention on anyone's part ...
In this case:
1) I have a limited Golden Age collection
2) the Wonder Woman title, where I've been grabbing the bulk of my showings from, was a bi-monthly and/or seasonal book. Fall of year, winter of a year, spring of a year, summer of a year during the early 40s; that was about it. By contrast, Action Comics, where you've been taking the bulk of YOUR contributions, was a MONTHLY book. Instead of being produced 4 times a year, it was featured 12 times a year.
You've got a 3-to-1 advantage to start!
Well, at any rate, as I stated before, the point of this exercise was to raise awareness and change perceptions about GoldenD. Sheer MULTITUDE of feats was never a plausible goal. Not with Superman having a head start of 3 or 4 years. But even you've admitted the MAGNITUDE of feats is comparable, and the submissions you gave the last few pages allowed me to give a good illustration of how Superman's average showings during this time and Wonder Woman's were a close and competitive parallel. That should enable people to look on the so-called "Earth-2" match of the 1970s with different eyes when we get to it.
I've not been paying so much attention to exact years feats were done, more like periods, authors, and decades. Nearly every submission for the past few pages, for instance, was one of the Golden Age period, the 1940s gradually moving into the 1950s in terms of decades, and feats contained in stories generally CREDITED to William Moulton Marston (author).
And, of course, the overriding limit of what I have readily available to upload and show. I'll have to REALLY scour if I'm going to try to make my collection conform to a year-by-year analysis; THAT degree of depth was never my focus. And I'm not really sure I should MAKE it so.
But we'll see what tomorrow brings.
If I stumble across an archive in the library, I'll give year-by-year some thought, maybe even give the era periodic re-visiting in the hope of speeding along the creation of your GoldeneraBlue respect thread.
I like what I'm seeing of early Superman after all.
There's a grandeur to some of the artwork that, unfortunately, seems missing in much of Wonder Woman's work. Seems that Blue was, graphically, given more "serious" treatment than his female counterpart.
Easy to see why Morrison decided to model his run on it ...
In the meantime, I haven't checked my records for a 1942 showing, but here, again, is a 1943 ship episode for Diana ...
Gonna do some experimenting with these next few posts.
Trying to see if KMC allows for the kind of "serial imaging" I see in places like the "Incredible Hulk" respect thread, where people feature a whole line of pictures in one little rectangular box.
Uploading scans as KMC attachments created links, which, without the "Automatically parse URLs" option checked are as follows ...
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13780729
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13780754
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13780786
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13780791
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13791297
Hmm.
Neither.
Just blue links like I normally get.
Maybe I need open parenthesis "URL equals, image address", closed parenthesis, open parenthesis IMG closed parenthesis,
image address,
then closed parenthesis, parenth-off IMG, parenth-off URL.
Let me try THAT and see where I get ...
[URL=http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=13780786]
Blast.
Still doesn't work.
Hmm.
I notice that posts with those images lined up in a box all have:
on- parenthIMG "something.jpg" off-parenthIMG.
Too bad KMC uploaded photos don't have ".jpg" listed anywhere.
Hey, P.R., I imagine you know something of this boards hypertext language. Know how to trace a KMC image to give this kind of information? I'm not quite as Internet-savvy as some of the younger people here, so suggestions would be welcome ...
Salsa,
Thanks for your message.
I actually did forget I had that ability today; I wrote that just before going off to work.
---------------------------
My mind is rebelling against adhering to any semblance of structure this particular moment in time. The feeling will pass; until it does, let me keep my word.
Promised weeks ago, relating to "how powers work", MOT13 scans.
Reminder: these corroborate the premise that post-Crisis Kryptonians operate on a "more yellow sun equals more power" principle ...
As alluded to in the previous 3 images, Superman becomes a little loopy in issue 13 of his Man of Tomorrow title. Which naturally means a fight, though this time not against any villain, but his own Justice League team.
They find him stronger than normal, though, which is to be expected from that rather extreme sun exposure at the beginning of this story ...
MOT13. Scan 4 of 7.
... and the extra sun exposure makes up the difference he needs to recover. Superman tells us this in his own words.
Reminder again that, for post-Crisis Kryptonians, Superman included,
more yellow sun = more strength.
More power. And more resistance.
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Source: Superman, the Man of Tomorrow #13, Volume 1
Writer: Louise Simonson
Penciller: Paul Ryan
Date: Spring 1999
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http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Superman:_Man_of_Tomorrow_Vol_1_13
It's too bad for you, Bluewater, that you're leaving something rather important out. You have no actual proof that Superman was strengthened. All you can prove is the extra sun exposure increased his resistance to Kryptonite. It's especially ridiculous you're claiming he was increased 40 times beyond his normal strength. I've already gone over this with you on the official DC boards and you weren't able to counter me. Tell me, if Superman truly was amped, then why didn't he DESTROY Orion? Here's the first published fight they had.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smos-193.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smos-194.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smos-195.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smos-196.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smos-197.jpg
Superman had actually been WINNING the fight until Lightray stepped-in. And Superman had an official power-up by the time that he fought Orion in SUPERMAN: THE MAN OF TOMORROW #13. And here's their fight.
Don't have the rest of the scans, but after this, Barda "sucker-blasts" Superman, followed by Orion hitting Superman, knocking him away, then the rest of the JLA pile on to restrain Superman. Now, considering Superman's ALREADY become more powerful since his first fight with Orion, if he has a boost at all, let alone the 40 time increase you're unsubstantially claiming, why didn't he violate Orion? Oh, I remember your counter-argument on the DC boards. You claimed Orion had help, and is more durable than Superman. As you can see, the entire "help" Orion had consisted of Green Lantern momentarily restraining Superman, and Barda blasting him once, before Orion's last attack prior to the JLA jumping in. As for Orion is more durable than Superman? This is based entirely on your ignorant belief that the Omega Beams are an instant-kill for Superman. Nope.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=pic013.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=pic014.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=pic016.jpg
Hurts him, but certainly not an Instant-Kill. And this being SUPERMAN CLASSIFIED, this takes place before any power-ups.
I believe Darkseid was weakened here, but even if he was, if the Omega Beams at full-power truly were the Instant-Kill for Superman you claimed, then even weakened Omega Beams should be hurting Superman to the point that he can barely fight. Is this true?
Nope, not even close. And looky looky, what do we have here?
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=NewGods10-06.jpg
"WHAT are you DOING? No one has EVER fought my Omega Beams. Not even ORION."
So, not only are they failing to kill Superman, but Darkseid's own words show that Superman is enduring them better than Orion, who you claim is more durable than Superman. Also, if Orion is more durable than Superman, then can you explain this?
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=jla02006.jpg
The En'Tarans(or however it's spelled) were able to produce shocks from the slave collars that could down everybody, including Orion.....except Superman, who's unfazed. If Orion were more durable, how is it that he's downed and Superman's not even tickled?
We also have this. Superman purposely takes a beating from the Brainiac-controlled Doomsday, then multiple Collun weapons, then another beating so he can put the Psi-Cap on and force Brainiac out.
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_16.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_17.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_18.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_19.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_20.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_21.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_22.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_23.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_24.jpg
How does Orion handle Doomsday?
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_36.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_37.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=smdoomsdaywar03_38.jpg
He lasts 52 seconds even with help from Martian Manhunter(who you also think is stronger than Superman, yet both him and Orion combined were less effective against Doomsday than Superman was). So, it's established that Orion is not more durable than Superman, in fact, the opposite is true. And Orion's "help" was essentially non-existent, and would've been completely ineffectual had Superman really been amped to the degree you're claiming he is.
Thus, I've proven that Superman had no noticeable boost in power during the MAN OF TOMORROW #13 fight, despite what you desperately wish. I should also point-out a couple of other things. The JLA in no way actually says they're finding him stronger than normal. You're either making this up, or completely misinterpreted what was said. But then again, in your Dark Knight Litmus Test, you fail to notice(or just ignore so you can manipulate it as evidence for Wonder Woman being stronger) that when Batman figures-out it was Wonder Woman who hit him, after thinking it's the hardest he's ever been hit, his first thoughts are, to paraphrase, "And since I know Clark is on Earth enjoying the life of a normal man--" THEN we see Wonder Woman. So, even if he figured it was Diana, it was only due to the fact that he knew it could NOT have been Superman. Also, the reason Superman's acting "loopy" is due to influence from Dominus.
Also, I'd like you to explain this. If Wonder Woman truly is stronger than Superman, why did she utterly fail to break his grip here?
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=WonderWomanv221905.jpg
http://s1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa466/Delta1938/?action=view¤t=WonderWomanv221906.jpg
You can't claim he was Sun-Amped here. She fails to break his grip for several panels before they leave Earth's atmosphere. He simply overpowered her. And you know why this REALLY hurts your argument?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9srBDFW0Z0
She was pretty much using the same technique as the Krav Maga choke defense. Which allows a victim to break the grip of a STRONGER opponent. This shows that she's not even close to his strength, let alone stronger like you claim.
But I have a feeling you'll fail to acknowledge most, if not all, of this, due to the fact that what you desperately wish were true is not, and I've just proven it. Face it dude, you've got about as much chance of proving Wonder Woman's stronger than Superman as you do of kicking Anderson Silva's ass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyhsDZna6AE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Silva#Championships_and_accomplishments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Silva#Mixed_martial_arts_record
It'd be nice for you to actually acknowledge my arguments and admit that you've got nothing instead of use a bunch of complicated speech to distract from the fact that ya got nuthin'.
