Evil Ryu vs Violent Ken

Originally posted by ThoraxeRMG
So you're saying Violent Ken would stay still and let himself get Shungokusatsu'ed? Ha.

Umm, even the Best of the Best have been caught by the Shungokusatsu...to name a few...

M. Bison, Gill, and Gen have all been struck by the Shungokusatsu.

Bison died, Gill was lucky he had ressurection otherwise he would be dead, Gen completely emptied his body, and mind becoming nothing, thus the Shungokusatsu did not work.

Satsu-No-Hadou Ryu can easily land it on V. Ken, it is one of the most deadly moves in the SF World...so how in the world would it be stated as such, was forbidden from Ryu and Ken's master to teach to them, if you couldn't land it on opponents.

Violent Ken is Absolutely No different then Psycho Ryu, both where controlled by Bison.

You also forget one huge thing, Violent Ken does not recieve super high lvls of abilities like Satsu-No-Hadou Ryu does.

One has to remember, that Violent Ken was portrayed by SNK off of the Ken that was brainwashed by Bison in the SFII:AM.

Violent Ken is only slightly more powerful then his original Ken form, with the purple flames instead of red flames.

However, Ryu from Satsu-No-Hadou Ryu sky rockets to the sky having the ability to Ashura Warp as well as having the Shungokusatsu as well.

There is a difference between the power gauges and abilities of the two.

Dark Ryu>>>>V. Ken

Originally posted by JustFrame
Dark Ryu

* it was known in Japan as Satsui no Hadou ni Mezameta Ryu which means "the surge of murderous intent awakened in Ryu"... so, to cut it short, it should be Murderous Ryu, 😆 what a terrible name...

Originally posted by JustFrame
(Not Evil Ryu, stupid English translations) would utterly destroy Violent Ken with ease.

* with ease? are you serious? if - and only if - Violent Ken cannot defeat Evil Ryu, he would give him one hell of a fight...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Dark Ryu would be ridiculously powerful, he would nearly be on par with someone like Gouki (Akuma) in abilities, which would push him well beyond the boundaries of even Violent Ken.

Not to mention, canon-storyline wise, Ryu is a far more powerful character then even Ken.

Throughout their entire time of training, Ken was never as good as Ryu, thus the reason why Ken started to wear his Red Gi, so he could stand out from Ryu.

* very wrong... in actuality, if you read between the "storylines", Ken has a lot more potential than Ryu to be the most powerful... Ryu was traveling all over the world, training himself... but once Ken's spirit was rekindled, Ken can even with Ryu in lesser time possible...

Originally posted by JustFrame
The only times that Ken ever won against a match up with Ryu was during Alpha when Ryu was clouded by the Dark-Hadou and confused, thus he wasn't mentally into his matchup with Ken and lost.

* because Ryu is very stubborn to accept defeat from Sagat... it was the time Ryu was first seduced by the Dark Hadou... and at that point, Ken punches Evil Ryu in the gut and your hero collapses...

Originally posted by JustFrame
The other time was most likely in SFII where Ken would've won, however outside of those two matchup's, Ryu has been the victor as stated by his comments "I have the better win record" to Ken in SFIII.

* and he can do it again... which means, Ryu and Ken can defeat each other... it is illogical to say that one can beat the other "with ease"...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ken is not as powerful as Ryu, fighting ability wise, or Ki-Channeling wise, especially that, considering Ken has been stated to not focus so much upon ki-channeling, and more upong being flashy.

* qualify the word "powerful"... Ken is slightly quicker than Ryu, so it would be easier for Ken to chain consecutive attacks and deal heavy damage and mulitple hits... Ryu is slightly stronger than Ken, and that's his advantage... and i can say that both have equal level of fighting ability... ki-channeling? have you watched SF IIV? both of them can gather tremendous amounts of energy, Ken can gather his quicker than Ryu...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Violent Ken would lose out to Ryu, I'm sorry.

* Violent Ken would kill Ryu... and it is safer to say that Violent Ken and Evil Ryu are somewhat equal... but Violent Ken is quicker so you do the math...

Originally posted by JustFrame
In Game Wise, Ryu has overall been the better character...here let me list to all of you...

Ryu - 6 Ken - 4 Tied - 1

So look at it here, overall within the original True Series of Street Fighter (Not including Spinoff's like VS, because if we did, Ryu would still overall be the better character regardless) Ryu has been for the most, the overall better character in game wise then Ken has.

Storyline wise and Gameplay Wise Overall, it's been Ryu>>>Ken.

* if it's gameplay-wise... it depends on how good the player is...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Umm, NO, maybe you haven't read the canon guide of the Street Fighter Storyline but Ryu is One Tier Higher then Ken.

* which is very unreasonable...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Also, let me put this straight, Ryu and Ken have fought, countless, and I mean countless times, period.

* yeah, read between the "storylines"... they can beat each other...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ryu was owning Ken before the events of Street Fighter 1, so Pre-SF1, Ryu was dominating over Ken. Thus the reason why Ken chose to wear a Red Gi.

* for the record, Ken did not choose his red clothing for him to stand out... it was Capcom, 😉

Originally posted by JustFrame
Secondly, there has been only TWO confirmed Match up's of Ken winning. One was with Ryu being clouded in the mind during Alpha in which Ken won...if you even call that a win that is.

* you may not call it a "win", but the bottomline is still - Ryu lost... and Ryu is stupid enough to remind himself of that loss over and over again because of the red headband he still wears... 😆

Originally posted by JustFrame
SFII would've been the only time Ken would've fought and beaten Ryu, simply because during SFII, Ken would only marry Eliza if he had beaten Ryu.

By the time SFIII comes around, we know that Ken is married with Eliza and that they have a kid named Mel. So Ken must have beaten Ryu during SFII.

* which proves that Ken can really defeat Ryu... no if's and no but's...

Originally posted by JustFrame
However, look at the whole picture, Ryu beat Ken when they used to train together,

* illogical...

Originally posted by JustFrame
and Ryu fought Ken in a match before Street Fighter 1 to prove his skills.

Which Ryu won, and he then entered in the SF1 tournament and defeated Sagat.

* and you have the guts to call a cheapshot, a "win"? Sagat is the real winner in that fight, buddy...

Originally posted by JustFrame
To say that Ken is naturally talented although he doesn't train as much is completely false.

Ken trained just as much as Ryu back in the day, however Ryu was just a better fighter then Ken was.

There is, or should not be any debate upon this. Ryu is the more dedicated and stronger individual, he even channels his ki-energy on a level that Ken could only dream of.

Not to mention if Ken was as "gifted" as you claim, then why is it, that during Alpha 3, Bison wanted only Ryu's body, simply because it was the perfect host to contain his Psycho Power.

* Ryu trains his whole life... when Ken's spirit was rekindled, he immediately became Ryu's equal... that's potential...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Or why is it that Gouki only wants to confront Ryu in the ultimate match up.

* because it was Ryu who was being seduced by the Dark Hadou...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Why don't we throw in the fact that Ryu has inspired a whole new generation of fighters, such as Alex, Sakura, and Makoto who all know him from his status and his abilities.

* because he's the one traveling around the world... Ken is more famous in USA anyway because he was the champion there...

Originally posted by JustFrame
More water to add, Oro chose Ryu as his pupil, because Oro saw that Ryu was the only one with potential to learn under him.

* because Ryu's thick head only has "train", "fight" and "win"... Ken has a family, a business and still has room for martial arts...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Again, how can this be argued, clearly in the storyline, Ryu is the stronger individual over Ken.

* which is wrong... they should be treated as equals... Ryu's main edge is because he is the lead protagonist of the story...

Originally posted by JustFrame
The reason why Ken does well against Ryu in bouts is simply because Ken and Ryu have been training since childhood.

* and Ken always loses to Ryu in their childhood training? what kind of rival is that? very illogical... Ryu can defeat Ken and Ken can defeat Ryu...

* actually, it was Ryu who benefitted more in his training with Ken, why? looky here what Ryu learned from Ken:

* what Ken learned from Ryu? to slow down his manic style and to rein in his exuberant flash when necessary...

* what Ryu learned from Ken? to look beyond the strict teachings they had learned and build upon them by exerting his creativity...

* who benefitted more? you do the math...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Simply because Ken can fight well against Ryu, doesn't mean he'll be able to contend with someone like Sagat. No offense to Ken, but if he had fought Sagat, he would've gotten destroyed.

* no offense taken, because Sagat destroyed Ryu, Sagat won the fight... Ryu refuses to accept his defeat, Dark Hadou entered and Ryu cheapshot Sagat with a Metsu Shoryuken... you call that a "win"?

Originally posted by JustFrame
Lastly, it's Dark Ryu, not Evil Ryu, Capcom has even stated that it was the American Translations, simply because when Ryu goes into Satsu-No-Hadou Ryu, he is not Evil whatsoever, or possessed by some devil or whatever.

That is absolutely not True, Dark Ryu is simply Ryu utilizing the full potential of Ansatsuken, because Ryu and Ken where trained with a toned down version of Ansatsuken, or the non-killing version.

Satsu-No-Hadou Ryu would be fully unleashed, and No, Violent Ken would absolutely lose to Satsu-No-Hadou Ryu.

* it's Murderous Ryu...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Just think, a Shungokusatsu from Dark Ryu would send V. Ken to oblivion.

* not if Ken executes Kuzuryuu Reppa - Shinbu Messatsu combo first... take note, Ken is quicker...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Satsu-No-Hadou Ryu can easily land it on V. Ken, it is one of the most deadly moves in the SF World...so how in the world would it be stated as such, was forbidden from Ryu and Ken's master to teach to them, if you couldn't land it on opponents.

* it's a very difficult move to master... it's not like you can do it everytime you wish... and Violent Ken is quicker than Evil Ryu...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Violent Ken is Absolutely No different then Psycho Ryu, both where controlled by Bison.

You also forget one huge thing, Violent Ken does not recieve super high lvls of abilities like Satsu-No-Hadou Ryu does.

One has to remember, that Violent Ken was portrayed by SNK off of the Ken that was brainwashed by Bison in the SFII:AM.

Violent Ken is only slightly more powerful then his original Ken form, with the purple flames instead of red flames.

* maybe, but don't deny the fact you see in the game... Violent Ken can equal Evil Ryu and Gouki...

Originally posted by JustFrame
However, Ryu from Satsu-No-Hadou Ryu sky rockets to the sky having the ability to Ashura Warp as well as having the Shungokusatsu as well.

* Rasetsu Kyaku can par with Ashura Senkuu anytime... so as Shinbu Messatsu with Shungoku Satsu...

Originally posted by JustFrame
There is a difference between the power gauges and abilities of the two.

Dark Ryu>>>>V. Ken

* for me, if the fight is a brief scuffle, it's Violent Ken >>> Evil Ryu...

* if the fight would last long, it's Violent Ken < Evil Ryu... 😉

Ryu's great, but if you count his cheapshot as a W(I like him, but I consider that an L), then you MUST also count Ken's win as a Super W since Ken never cheats. Anything he can't do w/out cheating just won't get done.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* it was known in Japan as Satsui no Hadou ni Mezameta Ryu which means "the surge of murderous intent awakened in Ryu"... so, to cut it short, it should be Murderous Ryu, 😆 what a terrible name...

Capcom stated "Dark Ryu", so take it as you will, confirmation from Capcom ='s Final, unless they decide to change things.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* with ease? are you serious? if - and only if - Violent Ken cannot defeat Evil Ryu, he would give him one hell of a fight...

Violent Ken is absolutely almost no difference then Psycho Ryu from Alpha. However, Violent Ken isn't even Canon in the first place, however even so, he is not on par with Dark Ryu. One is controlled and a mere puppet, while the other has Ansatsuken At Full Release, take your pick.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* very wrong... in actuality, if you read between the "storylines", Ken has a lot more potential than Ryu to be the most powerful... Ryu was traveling all over the world, training himself... but once Ken's spirit was rekindled, Ken can even with Ryu in lesser time possible...

Umm, no, it has been stated very, very clearly within the canon guide itself that Ryu has been the better fighter since they both started under Gouken. Ken would have had the SAME level of training as Ryu would have had under these circumstances.

Yet look at the results, Ken ultimately changed into his red gi to stand out from Ryu, simply because Ryu was the Better student.

You can try to argue this all you want, but Natural Talent is a bunch of garbage, considering the majority of the Super Elites only ever talk about Ryu, and not about Ken.

If Ken "had" natural talent over Ryu, why didn't he get chased down by Bison? Why didn't he get honored by Oro to have him train for him? Why doesn't he have the destined battle with Gouki?

FACT is simple, Ryu is better, which is why he's recognized.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* because Ryu is very stubborn to accept defeat from Sagat... it was the time Ryu was first seduced by the Dark Hadou... and at that point, Ken punches Evil Ryu in the gut and your hero collapses...

Your throwing me off here, are you saying that Ryu was seduced by the Dark Hadou and then after that, Ken strikes him knocking him down? Umm...are you talking about the Actual Street Fighter Canon Guide or the Alpha Movie?

I'm seriously confused here...however, let me tell you the real storyline then...

Ryu was losing to Sagat during Street Fighter 1, in fact, Sagat had the upper hand. Sagat was giving out a hand to pick Ryu up, however Ryu not wanting to lose and thirsting to achieve total victory unleashed the full fury of Satsu-No-Hadou on Sagat with a Metsu-Shoryuken that struck Sagat to the ground.

Making Ryu become the very first Champion of the Street Fighter Tournament.

Ken was Absolutely no where near Ryu at this time, or even the same continent for that matter. Ken had entered in a US Karate Tournament and beasting people over there.

Oh yeah, Before SF1, Ken fought Ryu and guess who won? Yep, Ryu.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* and he can do it again... which means, Ryu and Ken can defeat each other... it is illogical to say that one can beat the other "with ease"...

The only confirmed match up of Ken winning is within Alpha, when Ryu was clouded in the mind and not within the fight...so if you consider that a "true win" then I guess so.

However, the only other one, which isn't confirmed, but the most plausible is when Ken would defeat Ryu in SFII, that would've been the only way he would've married Eliza then.

So now, let's look at the whole picture here...through out the entire rivalry of Ryu vs Ken, there has been only Two Matchups that Ken can say he won.

Two...out of how many matchups they had? Ryu is the better fighter here, and if you actually look at it. Only ONE match up between the two is where Ken would've fought a completely focused Ryu and won.

Wow...you call that fairly equal? There's a reason why Ryu is a Whole Tier Above Ken.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* qualify the word "powerful"... Ken is slightly quicker than Ryu, so it would be easier for Ken to chain consecutive attacks and deal heavy damage and mulitple hits... Ryu is slightly stronger than Ken, and that's his advantage... and i can say that both have equal level of fighting ability... ki-channeling? have you watched SF IIV? both of them can gather tremendous amounts of energy, Ken can gather his quicker than Ryu...

Umm...your getting illogical now, first of all, ONLY within the Street Fighter Games, is Ken slightly faster then Ryu. However, Storyline Wise, they are about equal in speed, and there has been absolute ZERO confirmation by Capcom saying who's the faster Shoto. So your statement there is completely false.

Lastly, if you want to talk about "in-games" read my post from the last page, I clearly showed who was the better character overall in game throughout all of the SF games, if you want a quick breakdown,

6 Times Ryu was the better character within the SF games, only 4 times Ken was the better character within the SF games...Case Closed.

As for Ki-Channeling, lol...you must be joking me, SFIIV????😱

Considering SFIIV is not part of the actual true storyline of SF, so I'll emphasize this again, the ONLY canon parts from the SF storyline are from the games themselves, unless stated otherwise by Capcom, period.

NONE of the animes are Canon, NONE of the Comics are Canon, get your facts straight.

Ryu's Ki-Channeling is head's and heel's above Ken, and if you really want to get a notion of this. Sakura was channeling her Ki energy as good as Ken during Alpha.

So no...Ryu's Ki>>>>>>>>Ken's Ki.

Why do you think Ryu has more powerful Hadouken's? Why do you think Ryu has different form's of Super Hadouken's, like Shinkuu-Hadouken, and Denjin-Hadouken...while Ken has ZERO form's of a more powerful Hadouken.

I rest myself here.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* Violent Ken would kill Ryu... and it is safer to say that Violent Ken and Evil Ryu are somewhat equal... but Violent Ken is quicker so you do the math...

They are absolutely not equal, considering Violent Ken has been stated to be a form of the same Psycho Ken that was controlled by Bison in the SFII:AM.

Satsu-No-Hadou Ryu is Ryu unleashing the full fury of Ansatsuken, which means he unleashes his full power.

Violent Ken would absolutely not stand a chance in this match up, a Full Ansatsuken character up against a Mind Controlled not full powered character?

Please man, don't try to think that Violent Ken is as "powerful" as the full power of Ansatsuken. Dark Ryu is almost on par with Ryu, and has been stated to be about as powerful as Gouki was in Alpha.

Violent Ken is nowhere near that lvl of manliness.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* if it's gameplay-wise... it depends on how good the player is...

Please do not argue with me on this, I used to play tournament's for Street Fighter since 1991 onward only to quit 2 years ago.

A good player can only go so far, that's why you don't see Sean or Necro winning SFIII tournaments, that's why you don't see Cammy or T. Hawk winning Super Turbo tournaments?

Why, because they are in-game wise, horrible characters and extremely difficult to use and achieve victories with.

Ryu overall has been the better character, you talk to ANY top player in Hyper Fighting and pit a Great Ryu vs a Great Ken, and you'll see how much more difficult it is to win with Ken against Ryu.

Let me show a small example...

Ryu beats out Ken on zoning, simply because Ryu has the better Hadouken with better recovery, this means, Ryu will outpace Ken, and force him to come at Ryu.

Ken walks almost 1 second faster then Ryu, however this isn't a distinct advantage considering both characters have the same poking range, however Ryu has the better zoning range anyhow.

Ryu has the 1-Frame Inv. Start Up Hurricane Kick, this means if Ken throws a Hadouken even outside sweep range, Ryu can fly right through it and punish Ken for it.

Resulting in a knockdown and giving Ryu the initiative.

Case and point, two players of equal skill, the Ryu player will have the distinct advantage, because in-game wise, Ryu is the better character.

Much like how in SFIII: 3S, Ken is the better character then Ryu, simply because Ken has better hit-confirms into his SAIII, while Ryu does not have the same luxury.

End of Story.

Originally posted by peejayd
* which is very unreasonable...

Considering it has been confirmed by Capcom that Ryu was the better Fighter then Ken even when they first started training. Considering it has been confirmed by Capcom that the reason why Ken wore a Red Gi, was so that he could stand out from Ryu, because Ryu was the better fighter.

Your the one who's unreasonable, or should I say, lacks knowledge of the true canon storyline of SF.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* yeah, read between the "storylines"... they can beat each other...

They "can" beat one another, however over the countless match up's that they have had. Ryu has the far better win record, Ken has only won two confirmed match ups, while the rest, it's been Ryu. Not to mention Ryu is recognized by the super elites in the SF world as having the talent and the potential.

Good grief man, you've just got Ken Fanboyism running in your head now.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* for the record, Ken did not choose his red clothing for him to stand out... it was Capcom, 😉

Riight...considering Capcom themselves announced that Ken put on the red gi to stand out from Ryu, because Ken was not as good as Ryu when they where training and sparring one another.

So for the record...you are wrong.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* you may not call it a "win", but the bottomline is still - Ryu lost... and Ryu is stupid enough to remind himself of that loss over and over again because of the red headband he still wears... 😆

Lol, is this a troll comment or a flame bait comment or what?

Ryu does not hang over his losses, in fact, he only improves from his losses.

Look at where Ryu is at within SFA to where he is now in SFIII, ONLY FOUR confirmed characters are more powerful then Ryu in the SF World. Ken is definetly not one of them.

Ryu may have lost, but I can't even count the amount of times Ryu defeated Ken over their entire years as rivals.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* which proves that Ken can really defeat Ryu... no if's and no but's...

Remember this, it has yet to be confirmed that match up, and even if it is true. That's only still...TWO CONFIRMED match ups that Ken would have won.

While Ryu Pawned Ken Pre-SF1, right before SF1, and continued the whuppin within SFIII.

Case and Point...Ryu>>>>>>>>>>>>Ken.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* illogical...

Yeah...when it's confirmed by Capcom themselves...I guess it's "illogical" right? I guess in your eyes, Capcom confirming Ryu>Ken Pre-SF1 is false, however to the rest of the sane minded people it's the truth.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* and you have the guts to call a cheapshot, a "win"? Sagat is the real winner in that fight, buddy...

Sagat was indeed the better fighter there, so I do agree with you "in a sense", however Capcom has it as a confirmed win. Much like your yay jumps of how Ken defeated a cloud minded Ryu who wasn't into the fight they where in.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* Ryu trains his whole life... when Ken's spirit was rekindled, he immediately became Ryu's equal... that's potential...

[B]FALSE, and seriously, the Ken fanboy in you has to stop now, Ken was training as much as Ryu has throughout his entire lifetime, however unlike Ryu, Ken was never as good as Ryu from the very start when they first entered under Gouken's tutelage.

So saying that Ken is Ryu's equal when how can that be, considering Ken is ranked a whole tier under Ryu in the Tier Listing from the Canon Storyline.

That pretty much tells you and me, who's the better fighter.

Originally posted by peejayd
* because it was Ryu who was being seduced by the Dark Hadou...

Ryu has always had more potential then Ken, sorry to say, but Bison wanted to take over Ryu's body, NOT Ken. Oro wants to and is training Ryu because he's the one with potential, NOT Ken.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* because he's the one traveling around the world... Ken is more famous in USA anyway because he was the champion there...

That's the reason why he's so vastly better and a far greater fighter then Ken. If Ken had fought Sagat instead of Ryu, Ken would've gotten destroyed.

Ryu is a more gifted fighter, Ryu has far more experience, in fact it has been confirmed by Capcom that Ryu has fought around 10,000 opponents within his life time by the time SFIII is around.

Ryu>Ken, not only more talent, but is also more dedicated.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* because Ryu's thick head only has "train", "fight" and "win"... Ken has a family, a business and still has room for martial arts...

Ken barely has time for martial arts now, and he can ONLY enter tournaments that has Ryu entering in them. Yet surprisingly Ken has only won Two Times against Ryu ever.

So what are you trying to emphasize, because all that your saying is Ryu is a True Street Fighter, while Ken is not.

Originally posted by peejayd
[B]* which is wrong... they should be treated as equals... Ryu's main edge is because he is the lead protagonist of the story...

I'll tell you this, Ryu is the Poster Boy for Street Fighter, that's a given...but the main character throughout the storyline of Street Fighter?

LOL

You've got to be joking me man, the ONLY time Ryu was the main character was during Street Fighter 1. However during Street Fighter Alpha it was more centered around Ryu, Guile, Chunli, Charlie and Bison overall, then in SFII, it was about Guile and Chunli.

Considering Guile most likely won SFII, and then in SFIII, Alex is the Main Character, NOT Ryu.

Obviously you've never read the canon guide, and before you come back to debate again, please do so first.

I hate having to tell you how wrong you are on everything you've stated. Not to mention I don't want to have to repeat myself again.

* i'm very disappointed on how you became too touchy regarding the matter... i'm inserting some icebreakers in my posts, i may be "picking" on Ryu, but i'm not picking on you... you're just exposing your immaturity...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Capcom stated "Dark Ryu", so take it as you will, confirmation from Capcom ='s Final, unless they decide to change things.

* so tell me, is "Satsui no Hadou ni Mezameta Ryu" right or wrong?

Originally posted by JustFrame
Violent Ken is absolutely almost no difference then Psycho Ryu from Alpha. However, Violent Ken isn't even Canon in the first place,

* oh, didn't you know? Evil Ryu isn't canon as well... Ryu rejected the Dark Hadou... Evil Ryu was only an alternate reality if Ryu accepted the Dark Hadou...

Originally posted by JustFrame
however even so, he is not on par with Dark Ryu. One is controlled and a mere puppet, while the other has Ansatsuken At Full Release, take your pick.

* that "mere puppet" kicked Ryu's a$$ as far as i remember... Ryu is not fighting back, true, but you can see that he is trying to block Ken's attacks... Ken had broken Ryu's defense... a bloodlusted Ken is too much for Ryu to handle, what more if Ken had the Dark Hadou? just think out of the box one time...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Umm, no, it has been stated very, very clearly within the canon guide itself that Ryu has been the better fighter since they both started under Gouken. Ken would have had the SAME level of training as Ryu would have had under these circumstances.

* Capcom stated this, Capcom stated that... blah, blah, blah... however canon that may be, i'm thinking out of the box...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Yet look at the results, Ken ultimately changed into his red gi to stand out from Ryu, simply because Ryu was the Better student.

* why not argue about the scan i posted? you know, you remind me of Ryu in some ways... so like Ken, i will try to say this to you: "look beyond the strict teachings of Capcom and think out of the box" 😆

Originally posted by JustFrame
You can try to argue this all you want, but Natural Talent is a bunch of garbage,

* 😱 it's like Ryu traveling all over the world to find a diamond... and Ken does not know he has it with him all time...

Originally posted by JustFrame
considering the majority of the Super Elites only ever talk about Ryu, and not about Ken.

* yeah... so? 😆

Originally posted by JustFrame
If Ken "had" natural talent over Ryu,

* which is garbage...

Originally posted by JustFrame
why didn't he get chased down by Bison?

* why didn't Bison chase down Gouki? because Bison knows Ryu is someone being seduced by Dark Hadou that he (Bison) can control or overpower...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Why didn't he get honored by Oro to have him train for him?

* because Oro knows Ryu has a potential to be more powerful than he already is, happy? why not Ken? Ken is not that type of guy anymore since he started a family with Eliza...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Why doesn't he have the destined battle with Gouki?

* yeah, he doesn't... but he at first plans to avenge his master's death... he was sidetracked by other things, his family and his business...

Originally posted by JustFrame
FACT is simple, Ryu is better, which is why he's recognized.

* fact, Ryu travels around the world, Ken did not... again, what if Ken traveled around the world too? Ken would also be as recognized as Ryu...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Your throwing me off here, are you saying that Ryu was seduced by the Dark Hadou and then after that, Ken strikes him knocking him down? Umm...are you talking about the Actual Street Fighter Canon Guide or the Alpha Movie?

* both... when Ryu was seduced by Dark Hadou, he cheapshot Sagat with a Metsu Shoryuken... in that state (Ryu being seduced by Dark Hadou), he was punched in the gut and he collapses...

* also in that movie, Ryu entrusted and instructed Ken to kill him if need be... now, that statement would be very irrelevant and absurd if they both know that Ken cannot ever defeat Ryu...

Originally posted by JustFrame
I'm seriously confused here...however, let me tell you the real storyline then...

Ryu was losing to Sagat during Street Fighter 1, in fact, Sagat had the upper hand. Sagat was giving out a hand to pick Ryu up, however Ryu not wanting to lose and thirsting to achieve total victory unleashed the full fury of Satsu-No-Hadou on Sagat with a Metsu-Shoryuken that struck Sagat to the ground.

* which is a very clear cheap victory...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Making Ryu become the very first Champion of the Street Fighter Tournament.

Ken was Absolutely no where near Ryu at this time, or even the same continent for that matter.

* at that point? that's my point earlier... Ryu being seduced by Dark Hadou (like in his battle with Sagat) is as good as Ryu being punched by Ken in the gut and Ryu collapses...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ken had entered in a US Karate Tournament and beasting people over there.

* yeah... but there are also good fighters in US martial arts tournament...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Oh yeah, Before SF1, Ken fought Ryu and guess who won? Yep, Ryu.

* before SF1, it was training days with Gouken... they can defeat each other... what the heck are you saying?

Originally posted by JustFrame
The only confirmed match up of Ken winning is within Alpha, when Ryu was clouded in the mind and not within the fight...so if you consider that a "true win" then I guess so.

* Ryu "won" over Sagat because of a cheapshot... Ken won fairly over Ryu eventhough Ryu's mind was messed up... Ken did not cheat to win, Ryu did...

Originally posted by JustFrame
However, the only other one, which isn't confirmed, but the most plausible is when Ken would defeat Ryu in SFII, that would've been the only way he would've married Eliza then.

So now, let's look at the whole picture here...through out the entire rivalry of Ryu vs Ken, there has been only Two Matchups that Ken can say he won.

Two...out of how many matchups they had? Ryu is the better fighter here, and if you actually look at it. Only ONE match up between the two is where Ken would've fought a completely focused Ryu and won.

* and how many match-ups did you consider? it is very stupid to believe that all years Ryu and Ken spent with each other, Ken had not defeated Ryu save the two match-ups you stated above... if that is so, Ken should not be a rival nor a sparring partner, he should be stated as a jobber or a punching bag...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Wow...you call that fairly equal? There's a reason why Ryu is a Whole Tier Above Ken.

* which is very reasonable... 😐

Originally posted by JustFrame
Umm...your getting illogical now, first of all, ONLY within the Street Fighter Games, is Ken slightly faster then Ryu. However, Storyline Wise, they are about equal in speed, and there has been absolute ZERO confirmation by Capcom saying who's the faster Shoto. So your statement there is completely false.

* ah... so if they are equal, don't say Ryu is better... you are contradicting your own statement...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Lastly, if you want to talk about "in-games" read my post from the last page, I clearly showed who was the better character overall in game throughout all of the SF games, if you want a quick breakdown,

6 Times Ryu was the better character within the SF games, only 4 times Ken was the better character within the SF games...Case Closed.

* that's your assessment... everybody has different opinions... but even those breakdowns are preposterous...

* i can say that Ryu is easier to use than Ken... because you can pressure your opponent more with quick consecutive Hadoukens using Ryu than Ken... ranged attacks (Hadouken) are always a big advantage than melee attacks (Shoryuken)...

* a character "easier to use" does not mean that character is better or stronger... Spider-man is easy to use but that does not mean he is more powerful than Magneto or Juggernaut...

Originally posted by JustFrame
As for Ki-Channeling, lol...you must be joking me, SFIIV????😱

Considering SFIIV is not part of the actual true storyline of SF, so I'll emphasize this again, the ONLY canon parts from the SF storyline are from the games themselves, unless stated otherwise by Capcom, period.

* that's the reason you're so closed-minded...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ryu's Ki-Channeling is head's and heel's above Ken,

* both of them can gather tremendous amounts of energy... that's why Ken was able to develop this energy to manifest as fire...

Originally posted by JustFrame
and if you really want to get a notion of this. Sakura was channeling her Ki energy as good as Ken during Alpha.

* in Alpha 1, Ken and Ryu's Hadouken are identical... in Alpha 2 and 3, Ryu's Hadouken remained, while Ken's was now patterned to his Hadouken in SF 2 Turbo...

* Sakura was nowhere near Ken in ki-channeling, don't make Ryu a god...

Originally posted by JustFrame
So no...Ryu's Ki>>>>>>>>Ken's Ki.

* absurd...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Why do you think Ryu has more powerful Hadouken's? Why do you think Ryu has different form's of Super Hadouken's, like Shinkuu-Hadouken, and Denjin-Hadouken...while Ken has ZERO form's of a more powerful Hadouken.

I rest myself here.

* is Hadouken the only attack that uses energy? Shoryuken also uses energy... Ken concentrates on his style, his speed and his exuberant flash... that's why he focuses on Shoryuken...

* tell me, how did Ken and Ryu defeat Bison in the animated movie? is it a double Hadouken or double Shinkuu-Hadouken?

Originally posted by JustFrame
Dark Ryu is almost on par with Ryu, and has been stated to be about as powerful as Gouki was in Alpha.

* are you talking about the game or the story? because Evil Ryu is just an alternate reality...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Violent Ken is nowhere near that lvl of manliness.

* level of manliness? Ken has a gorgeous wife and still goes out in a date with Morrigan, if you know what i mean... Ryu is pretty gay in that level, 😆

Originally posted by JustFrame
Please do not argue with me on this, I used to play tournament's for Street Fighter since 1991 onward only to quit 2 years ago.

* you think you're talking to someone who does not play Street Fighter? you can't even give appropriate statements... let me remind you:

* Ryu is easier to use than Ken... because you can pressure your opponent more with quick consecutive Hadoukens using Ryu than Ken... ranged attacks (Hadouken) are always a big advantage than melee attacks (Shoryuken)...

* a character "easier to use" does not mean that character is better or stronger... Spider-man is easy to use but that does not mean he is more powerful than Magneto or Juggernaut...

Originally posted by JustFrame
A good player can only go so far, that's why you don't see Sean or Necro winning SFIII tournaments, that's why you don't see Cammy or T. Hawk winning Super Turbo tournaments?

Why, because they are in-game wise, horrible characters and extremely difficult to use and achieve victories with.

* from what prehistoric era have you came from? i know excellent players that can kick the crap out of any Ryu player even by using Cammy or T.Hawk or even Dan, Sean, Karin, Necro or Twelve...

* that's the reason my conclusion is --- it depends how good the player is...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ryu overall has been the better character, you talk to ANY top player in Hyper Fighting and pit a Great Ryu vs a Great Ken, and you'll see how much more difficult it is to win with Ken against Ryu.

* i'm sorry, you're watching a bunch of dumb players...

Originally posted by JustFrame
if Ken throws a Hadouken even outside sweep range, Ryu can fly right through it and punish Ken for it.

* as if Ken wasn't capable of doing it... heck, even Dan can punish Ryu if you made a mistake like that...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Considering it has been confirmed by Capcom that Ryu was the better Fighter then Ken even when they first started training. Considering it has been confirmed by Capcom that the reason why Ken wore a Red Gi, was so that he could stand out from Ryu, because Ryu was the better fighter.

* get over the "costume"-thing, will ya? 😘

Originally posted by JustFrame
Your the one who's unreasonable, or should I say, lacks knowledge of the true canon storyline of SF.

* very immature... i'm saying that the "concept of making Ryu one tier higher than Ken" is very unreasonable... i'm not saying "you" are unreasonable... but judging by your posts, it seems like you're proving it...

Originally posted by JustFrame
They "can" beat one another,

* if they are capable of beating each other, what's the fuzz? stop treating Ryu as a god, for goodness' sake...

Originally posted by JustFrame
however over the countless match up's that they have had. Ryu has the far better win record, Ken has only won two confirmed match ups, while the rest, it's been Ryu. Not to mention Ryu is recognized by the super elites in the SF world as having the talent and the potential.

* wah, wah, wah... the more you whine, the more illogical you get...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Good grief man, you've just got Ken Fanboyism running in your head now.

* nope... but you know what? i just exposed your true color: RYU FANBOY! 😆

Originally posted by JustFrame
Riight...considering Capcom themselves announced that Ken put on the red gi to stand out from Ryu, because Ken was not as good as Ryu when they where training and sparring one another.

So for the record...you are wrong.

* nope... you don't just get it, do ya? the red outfit was trademarked to Ken not to stand out from Ryu, but to stand out from everybody else and to reflect Ken's flashy style of fighting... and you've just been pawned, Ryu-fanboy... 😉

Originally posted by JustFrame
Lol, is this a troll comment or a flame bait comment or what?

* an icebreaker for a touchy fella like you... don't get too personal, just an advise...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Look at where Ryu is at within SFA to where he is now in SFIII, ONLY FOUR confirmed characters are more powerful then Ryu in the SF World. Ken is definetly not one of them.

* i'm arguing the fact that Ken can equal Ryu and Violent Ken can equal Evil Ryu... that as rivals, they can beat each other... don't get it over the edge...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ryu may have lost, but I can't even count the amount of times Ryu defeated Ken over their entire years as rivals.

* ask yourself, can you consider a person your rival if you know he cannot defeat you?

Originally posted by JustFrame
Yeah...when it's confirmed by Capcom themselves...I guess it's "illogical" right? I guess in your eyes, Capcom confirming Ryu>Ken Pre-SF1 is false, however to the rest of the sane minded people it's the truth.

* Capcom stated that Ken is Ryu's eternal rival... not even Gouki, Bison or Oro is... is it insane to believe that now?

Originally posted by JustFrame
Sagat was indeed the better fighter there, so I do agree with you "in a sense", however Capcom has it as a confirmed win. Much like your yay jumps of how Ken defeated a cloud minded Ryu who wasn't into the fight they where in.

* look at how you twist the argument... you first boasted Ryu's win over Sagat, but do not consider Ken's win over Ryu because Ryu's mind was clouded... i rebutted how can you consider a cheapshot, a win?

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ken was never as good as Ryu from the very start when they first entered under Gouken's tutelage.

* of course, because was a spoiled rich brat at first... later, he became disciplined but still rich and cocky... 🙂

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ryu has always had more potential then Ken, sorry to say, but Bison wanted to take over Ryu's body, NOT Ken. Oro wants to and is training Ryu because he's the one with potential, NOT Ken.

* of course... who's more recognized?

Originally posted by JustFrame
That's the reason why he's so vastly better and a far greater fighter then Ken. If Ken had fought Sagat instead of Ryu, Ken would've gotten destroyed.

* wasn't Ryu destroyed? if it wasn't for the cheapshot, Ryu is defeated...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ryu is a more gifted fighter, Ryu has far more experience, in fact it has been confirmed by Capcom that Ryu has fought around 10,000 opponents within his life time by the time SFIII is around.

Ryu>Ken, not only more talent, but is also more dedicated.

* but according to you, natural talent is garbage... okay, Ryu has more garbage than Ken... 😆

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ken barely has time for martial arts now, and he can ONLY enter tournaments that has Ryu entering in them. Yet surprisingly Ken has only won Two Times against Ryu ever.

* yet surprisingly, Ryu lost to someone who barely has time for martial arts... what a pity...

Originally posted by JustFrame
So what are you trying to emphasize, because all that your saying is Ryu is a True Street Fighter, while Ken is not.

* in someway, yes... i'll give that to Ryu...

Originally posted by JustFrame
I'll tell you this, Ryu is the Poster Boy for Street Fighter, that's a given...but the main character throughout the storyline of Street Fighter?

* don't try kick out of it now... it's way too late to put Ryu down on the pedestal you brought him up to...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Obviously you've never read the canon guide, and before you come back to debate again, please do so first.

I hate having to tell you how wrong you are on everything you've stated. Not to mention I don't want to have to repeat myself again.

* debating in this kind of genre aren't supposed to be too serious nor personal... compose yourself and ponder your maturity before coming back to debate... your arguments are either inappropriate or going in circles... you can't even think out of the box... this "talk" should be fun and interesting, just don't be too touchy... 😉

Originally posted by JustFrame
They "can" beat one another, however over the countless match up's that they have had. Ryu has the far better win record, Ken has only won two confirmed match ups, while the rest, it's been Ryu.

Originally posted by peejayd * i'm very disappointed on how you became too touchy regarding the matter... i'm inserting some icebreakers in my posts, i may be "picking" on Ryu, but i'm not picking on you... you're just exposing your immaturity...

My immaturity, right? Honestly, I'll put this out to you plain and simple. I am not the one who "believes" that so and so is true, without reading the actual canon guide of the SF storyline.

The mere fact that you continue to debate with me without real knowledge of the characters shows you own lack of immaturity.

Please, stop trying to derail the topic at hand and keep it real, it's sad when you try to think it's an individual debate, when you have nothing else better to say.

Originally posted by peejayd * so tell me, is "Satsui no Hadou ni Mezameta Ryu" right or wrong?

It's been Satsu No Hadou for ages now.

Originally posted by peejayd * oh, didn't you know? Evil Ryu isn't canon as well... Ryu rejected the Dark Hadou... Evil Ryu was only an alternate reality if Ryu accepted the Dark Hadou...

Umm, no duh Dark Ryu, NOT E. Ryu wasn't canon, however the fact remain's, Satsu No Hadou Ryu did appear for that split second against Sagat that struck him with the Metsu Shoryuken.

The fact remains is that the character of Dark Ryu was very, very plausible in the Street Fighter Canon and actually existed even if for just a brief moment. Violent Ken never existed period.

There is a vast difference between the two right there, lastly, stop using Evil Ryu. He's not Evil, it's Dark Ryu as stated by Capcom.

Originally posted by peejayd * that "mere puppet" kicked Ryu's a$$ as far as i remember... Ryu is not fighting back, true, but you can see that he is trying to block Ken's attacks... Ken had broken Ryu's defense... a bloodlusted Ken is too much for Ryu to handle, what more if Ken had the Dark Hadou? just think out of the box one time...

Considering Ryu knew that something was wrong with Ken's mind, thus Ryu did not fight back at all. Just watch the Anime again, Ryu does absolutely nothing in retaliation to the brainwashed Ken in the SFII:AM.

Ryu trying to defend? Please, if you really call that a defend, whatsoever, Ryu simply took the punishment because he was hoping that sooner or later Ken would snap out of it.

He was not going to fight a Ken who was not acting like the Real Ken, plain and simple.

Originally posted by peejayd * Capcom stated this, Capcom stated that... blah, blah, blah... however canon that may be, i'm thinking out of the box...

There statements>>>>>>Your opinion, true facts, plain and simple, whatever they say holds 100% water, while whatever you say is nothing but a fan belief of "well this is what I think".

Originally posted by peejayd * why not argue about the scan i posted? you know, you remind me of Ryu in some ways... so like Ken, i will try to say this to you: "look beyond the strict teachings of Capcom and think out of the box" 😆

You cannot "think" outside of a box, simply because the storyline has already been laid out in front of you. Your scan is absolutely nothing, and I mean nothing, but scans from what? Udon? Sorry to burst your bubble, but those Udon Comics are NOT canon.

SF has a very solid and already straight forward storyline, yes, some parts are left in speculation, but the mere fact of who's better, Ryu or Ken is not left to guess.

It has been clearly stated that Ryu was the better fighter, plain and simple. Go and make up your own "idea's" however, the fact of the real Street Fighter storyline is, Ryu is the better fighter over Ken.

The storyline of the games themselves are what is canon, or else first hand confirmation from Capcom themselves. Don't try to get the "What I think" and "What Capcom says" mixed together.

Originally posted by peejayd * 😱 it's like Ryu traveling all over the world to find a diamond... and Ken does not know he has it with him all time...

Ken is a tremendously talented fighter, however, *gasp*, he's just not as talented or as dedicated as Ryu put together, which is why Ken will always be #2 when compared to Ryu, simple answer.

Please stop trying to derail the whole notion, Ken knew since the days that they first learned under Gouken, that Ryu was better.

Originally posted by peejayd * yeah... so? 😆

The more reason why Ryu>Ken.

Originally posted by peejayd * which is garbage...

In your world, it may be garbage, but the fact that although Ken may not be better then Ryu, Ken is still better then nearly 75% of the SF cast says alot.

Originally posted by peejayd * why didn't Bison chase down Gouki? because Bison knows Ryu is someone being seduced by Dark Hadou that he (Bison) can control or overpower...

Bison knows about Ryu, and see's that Ryu is the body that has the potential to contain his Psycho Power. NOT because Ryu is under the notion of Satsu No Hadou, that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact of why Bison wanted to take over Ryu's body.

It was because Ryu's body had the most potential to hold and contain Bison's Psycho Power, which at the time was at it's absolute and most powerful peak.

Originally posted by peejayd * because Oro knows Ryu has a potential to be more powerful than he already is, happy? why not Ken? Ken is not that type of guy anymore since he started a family with Eliza...

Please don't use the "family" excuse, Ryu has more potential, since Day #1. Plain and simple, Ryu is the better fighter, he was recognized more from the beginning of SF, all the way into the latest edition of SF, which is SFIII.

Originally posted by peejayd * yeah, he doesn't... but he at first plans to avenge his master's death... he was sidetracked by other things, his family and his business...

Ken has never, not once ever been better then Ryu, plain and simple.

Originally posted by peejayd * fact, Ryu travels around the world, Ken did not... again, what if Ken traveled around the world too? Ken would also be as recognized as Ryu...

I agree, Ryu travels the world, and is known, however Ken is also known as well, maybe not to the whole degree of Ryu. Yet, this show's you one thing of Ryu's character over Ken, dedication wise, Ryu blows Ken out of the water, however more importantly, that I've stated to you 20394892038209 times, Ryu is more naturally talented then Ken.

Originally posted by peejayd * both... when Ryu was seduced by Dark Hadou, he cheapshot Sagat with a Metsu Shoryuken... in that state (Ryu being seduced by Dark Hadou), he was punched in the gut and he collapses...

Considering Ken was not even present at the time of Ryu and Sagat's match up, completely mutes all credibility to your comment above...please man, read the actual SF canon first.

Originally posted by peejayd * also in that movie, Ryu entrusted and instructed Ken to kill him if need be... now, that statement would be very irrelevant and absurd if they both know that Ken cannot ever defeat Ryu...

Considering

#1. SF:Alpha The Movie was never Canon

#2. Satsu No Hadou Ryu is as powerful as SFIII Ryu ='s Alpha Ken would get completely annihilated by Dark Ryu, remember here, Ken is ranked where he is in the Tier List of the SF World with notion that it is the most present day Ken, meaning SFIII Ken, and SFIII Ken is much more powerful then Alpha Ken.

So if SFIII Ken, which couldn't even beat a SFIII Ryu when they had a match up, how in the world could Alpha Ken, a vastly inferior Ken beat a Satsu No Hadou Ryu which is equivelant to a SFIII Ryu?

That pretty much is self explanitory, HAD Ryu of gone Satsu No Hadou, he would've annihilated Ken, just watch the anime again, only Satsu No Hadou Ryu was able to contend with the Cyborg and the Doctor at the end. Ken got destroyed by the Cyborg...case and point.

However, considering this has nothing to do with the real SF storyline, we'll let it pass.

Originally posted by peejayd * which is a very clear cheap victory...

Ryu's Victory ='s Ken's Victory over Ryu in Alpha, plain and simple, I don't hooray any of them, however that doesn't stop Ryu>>>>Ken though.

Originally posted by peejayd * at that point? that's my point earlier... Ryu being seduced by Dark Hadou (like in his battle with Sagat) is as good as Ryu being punched by Ken in the gut and Ryu collapses...

Ken was not there, he was at a US Karate Tournament, thousands of miles away from the battle of Ryu and Sagat. Also, what's with the Ryu being seduced by the Dark Hadou, he only came into contact with it once.

What the heck are talking about now?

Originally posted by peejayd * yeah... but there are also good fighters in US martial arts tournament...

Your telling me, they had fighters as beastly as Gen, Adon, or Sagat in them???? Please man, don't even try to compare the two. Given Ryu may not have confronted Gen in the tournament, the competition that Ryu had to contend with was leaps and bounds above Ken.

Ken destroyed that Karate Tournament, and this is a Ken who lost to Ryu just right before he left to the SF1 tournament.

Originally posted by peejayd * before SF1, it was training days with Gouken... they can defeat each other... what the heck are you saying?

However, it did not happen as you stated above, Ken was never as good as Ryu Pre-SF1, as I've said to you for the 10th time. Ken was not as good as Ryu, that's why he wore the Red Gi, are you just simply trying to continue arguing for the sake of arguing?

Can you not see the facts, Ken was not as good as Ryu, was not as good of a fighter as Ryu, nor was he as talented, thus he took on the Red Gi, to differentiate himself from Ryu.

Originally posted by peejayd * Ryu "won" over Sagat because of a cheapshot... Ken won fairly over Ryu eventhough Ryu's mind was messed up... Ken did not cheat to win, Ryu did...

Lol, right...fighting someone who's more concerned about them being consumed by Satsu No Hadou and not caring for the fight makes it better then the defeat Sagat took?

Lol, both of them where not better then the other, however, I did give Ken credit for the match up, however it's still only Two Win's, lmao.

Originally posted by peejayd * and how many match-ups did you consider? it is very stupid to believe that all years Ryu and Ken spent with each other, Ken had not defeated Ryu save the two match-ups you stated above... if that is so, Ken should not be a rival nor a sparring partner, he should be stated as a jobber or a punching bag...

First off, Pre-SF1, Ryu was a far better fighter then Ken, it has been confirmed by Capcom, that the reason Ken has the red gi, was that Ken was not on the same league as Ryu.

So the fact is simple, Ryu was putting the stomp on Ken Pre-SF1, and they even fought eachother one last time before SF1 took place, in which Ryu won. Solidifying the fact that Ryu>>>>>>>Ken.

Ken's only real win against Ryu which would have helped prompt him into marrying Eliza would have only taken place during SFII, or at least around that time.

In SFIII, Ryu owned Ken.

So let's just "magically" say that Ken did "infact" win a few more matches then what I posted. It would still be Ryu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ken by a huge landslide.

How so, Ken would have been losing so much to the point, that he knew for the fact that he was not on the same level as Ryu. Knowing this, the only way he felt he could stand out when compared to Ryu was to wear a Red Gi.

Remember, it's official by Capcom that Ken was not on the same level as Ryu Pre-SF1. So even if I where to agree with you for just this moment and say that Ken "won" some matches, it wouldn't take away from the fact that Ryu would've won an even more gigantic number of matches against Ken simply with the statements from Capcom.

With the official storyline to back up Ryu...why do you continue to prove something that is not real?

Originally posted by peejayd * which is very reasonable... 😐

I'll tell you this very plainly, and very simply. The reason why Ken can fight reasonably better then other opponents would if they confronted Ryu is the single fact that Ken has fought with Ryu since they where childhood.

So it would make perfect logical sense that Ken would be able to somewhat contend with Ryu better then say if Guile was to fight Ryu. However, let's say if SFIII Ken fought a Sagat within the same present day...there would be no chance in the world that Ken would be able to contend with Sagat as well as Ryu would in the same timeline.

Simply because Ryu is that much stronger, and better.

Originally posted by peejayd * ah... so if they are equal, don't say Ryu is better... you are contradicting your own statement...

Read it again, your only contradicting yourself, I said canon wise they are about equal in speed, NOT in abilities :rollseyes:

Originally posted by peejayd * that's your assessment... everybody has different opinions... but even those breakdowns are preposterous...

Those "aren't" my assessment's, those are the statements, from the BEST PLAYERS from SF saying it. Those are the Best SF players from the world agreeing with the notion, not just my "opinion".

Judging by your saying above, you've never been to a tournament, and if you have, you've never been to a real SF tournament with the best players.

Nobody who has high lvl of SF competition would disagree on my statement above.

Originally posted by peejayd * i can say that Ryu is easier to use than Ken... because you can pressure your opponent more with quick consecutive Hadoukens using Ryu than Ken... ranged attacks (Hadouken) are always a big advantage than melee attacks (Shoryuken)...

They are both easy to pick up and learn, it just comes down to whom do you prefer, however preference does not include who is the better character in the game, which Ryu overall is.

A further range Shoryuken has very limited uses while a faster Hadouken has far more uses, case and point, although Ken's is slightly slower, that doesn't mean that his isn't useful, it just mean's that his zoning/spacing game isn't on the same league as Ryu's.

Originally posted by peejayd * a character "easier to use" does not mean that character is better or stronger... Spider-man is easy to use but that does not mean he is more powerful than Magneto or Juggernaut... [/B]

Lol...have you played Tekken 4? Jin is one of, if not the easiest character to pick up, and he is the most powerful character in the Tekken 4 roster, with evidence by 99.9% of the tournaments across the world being won by Jin.

Or how about Ken in SFIII:3S, extremely easy to pick up, and yet is the 3rd Best overall character in that game period. In fact, out of the Top 3 best characters, Chunli and Ken are the two most easy to pick up characters in 3S to become powerful with, due to their nature and their gameplay.

However, there are other games that have it to where they are hard to pick up, but super powerful in the end, take the TekkenTag Mishima's, ridiculous to master, but once they are there, they have absolutely no equal in the game.

Or how about Magneto, heck yeah, he's a better character then Spiderman, only in Marvel Super Heroes was Magneto trash, and Spiderman the best character in there.

However Magneto is hard to pick up, but once you master him...infinites, resets, can kill a character in 4 seconds ggpo goodness.

Fighting games, it differents from one another, in one, the best character can be one of the easiest to play and easily the most powerful in the game, while in another they can be one of the most technical and demanding to play while being one of if not the most powerful character in the game.

Ryu>Ken in-game wise overall still regardless, and storyline wise.

Lastly, I'm not going to bother replying to second post, it's just a joke now, all I'm doing is repeating myself and your doing nothing but going "I'm thinking outside of the box" or more like "these are my opinon" comments.

Which hold absolutely no water in a debate such as this, face the facts man, Ryu is stronger and better then Ken, plain and simple. I've told you already, read the actual Street Fighter Canon Guide.

Ryu is better then Ken.

If you continue on with this, then you definitely are doing nothing but trolling simply for the sake of trying to argue.

Originally posted by JustFrame
My immaturity, right? Honestly, I'll put this out to you plain and simple. I am not the one who "believes" that so and so is true, without reading the actual canon guide of the SF storyline.

The mere fact that you continue to debate with me without real knowledge of the characters shows you own lack of immaturity.

Please, stop trying to derail the topic at hand and keep it real, it's sad when you try to think it's an individual debate, when you have nothing else better to say.

* wow, i've never seen any bigger Ryu fanboy than you... so stubborn and so touchy... actually, in the last post, i tried to mellow down and quip, but this is great... jeez... you're not even worth it...

* i'll try to answer some of your idiocies other than the "Ryu>>>Ken" thingy you always blab about...

Originally posted by JustFrame
It's been Satsu No Hadou for ages now.

* simple question = simple answer... you can't even do that...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Umm, no duh Dark Ryu, NOT E. Ryu wasn't canon, however the fact remain's, Satsu No Hadou Ryu did appear for that split second against Sagat that struck him with the Metsu Shoryuken.

* oh yeah... the cheapshot...

Originally posted by JustFrame
The fact remains is that the character of Dark Ryu was very, very plausible in the Street Fighter Canon and actually existed even if for just a brief moment. Violent Ken never existed period.

* and yet there is Violent Ken in SNK vs. Capcom, why? are you insecure that Violent Ken is cooler than Evil Ryu? that more players use him? that he is very powerful in the game? yeah, you're just an insecure fanboy...

Originally posted by JustFrame
There is a vast difference between the two right there, lastly, stop using Evil Ryu. He's not Evil, it's Dark Ryu as stated by Capcom.

* first, Evil Ryu is more popular, who the heck cares? it's still him anyway... secondly, you will not tell me what to say, you fanboy...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Considering Ryu knew that something was wrong with Ken's mind, thus Ryu did not fight back at all. Just watch the Anime again, Ryu does absolutely nothing in retaliation to the brainwashed Ken in the SFII:AM.

* i did not say that Ryu is fighting back...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ryu trying to defend? Please, if you really call that a defend, whatsoever, Ryu simply took the punishment because he was hoping that sooner or later Ken would snap out of it.

* why don't you try to watch it again? eventhough Ryu is not fighting back, he is still trying to defend himself... and Ken destroyed his defense...

Originally posted by JustFrame
In your world, it may be garbage, but the fact that although Ken may not be better then Ryu, Ken is still better then nearly 75% of the SF cast says alot.

* are you out of your freakin' mind? it is you who said that "natural talent is garbage"...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Please don't use the "family" excuse, Ryu has more potential, since Day #1. Plain and simple, Ryu is the better fighter, he was recognized more from the beginning of SF, all the way into the latest edition of SF, which is SFIII.

* having a family and business is a big excuse... still, Ken beat Ryu despite having a family...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ken has never, not once ever been better then Ryu, plain and simple.

* yeah... take from the Ryu fanboy...

Originally posted by JustFrame
I agree, Ryu travels the world, and is known, however Ken is also known as well, maybe not to the whole degree of Ryu. Yet, this show's you one thing of Ryu's character over Ken, dedication wise, Ryu blows Ken out of the water, however more importantly, that I've stated to you 20394892038209 times, Ryu is more naturally talented then Ken.

* dedication? hands down... Ryu wins... but according to you, natural talent is garbage...

Originally posted by JustFrame
So if SFIII Ken, which couldn't even beat a SFIII Ryu when they had a match up, how in the world could Alpha Ken, a vastly inferior Ken beat a Satsu No Hadou Ryu which is equivelant to a SFIII Ryu?

* by punching Evil Ryu in the gut... and he collapses...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Ryu's Victory ='s Ken's Victory over Ryu in Alpha, plain and simple, I don't hooray any of them, however that doesn't stop Ryu>>>>Ken though.

* Ken's victory >>>>>>>>>> Ryu's victory... Ryu cheated, Ken did not...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Your telling me, they had fighters as beastly as Gen, Adon, or Sagat in them???? Please man, don't even try to compare the two.

* do you have a problem in reading comprehension? i did not compare the SF and US tournament... i just said, there are other good fighters who participated there...

Originally posted by JustFrame
However, it did not happen as you stated above, Ken was never as good as Ryu Pre-SF1, as I've said to you for the 10th time. Ken was not as good as Ryu, that's why he wore the Red Gi, are you just simply trying to continue arguing for the sake of arguing?

* let me repeat to the Ryu fanboy: "the red outfit was trademarked to Ken not to stand out from Ryu, but to stand out from everybody else and to reflect Ken's flashy style of fighting"... and that was stated by Capcom, so shut the hell up...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Lol, right...fighting someone who's more concerned about them being consumed by Satsu No Hadou and not caring for the fight makes it better then the defeat Sagat took?

* tell me why Ryu was seduced by the Dark Hadou in the moment he struck Sagat with the Metsu Shoryuken? it was stated by Capcom that Ryu refused to accept defeat... the Metsu Shoryuken was a cheapshot while Sagat tried to help Ryu up, because Sagat knows the battle is over...

* Ryu agreed to fight Ken fair and square... can't your thick skull admit that Ryu cheated Sagat? and Ken did not cheat to win the fight with Ryu?

Originally posted by JustFrame
Lol, both of them where not better then the other, however, I did give Ken credit for the match up, however it's still only Two Win's, lmao.

* two wins in the tournament... but both Ken and Ryu made 20394892038209 match-ups, more than you'll ever know... logic dictates that in those matches, they have wins over each other... Ken is Ryu's eternal rival, not a jobber nor a punching bag...

Originally posted by JustFrame
So let's just "magically" say that Ken did "infact" win a few more matches then what I posted. It would still be Ryu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ken by a huge landslide.

* how? that's just a fanboy statement...

Originally posted by JustFrame
I'll tell you this very plainly, and very simply. The reason why Ken can fight reasonably better then other opponents would if they confronted Ryu is the single fact that Ken has fought with Ryu since they where childhood.

* that's the point... Ryu knows how Ken fights and Ken knows how Ryu fights... that is why it is very illogical to say - like what you've said - that Ken cannot beat Ryu...

Originally posted by JustFrame
However, let's say if SFIII Ken fought a Sagat within the same present day...there would be no chance in the world that Ken would be able to contend with Sagat as well as Ryu would in the same timeline.

* are you blind? Sagat can destroy Ken as crystal clear as how Sagat destroyed Ryu... Ryu just cheated Sagat...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Read it again, your only contradicting yourself, [B]I said canon wise they are about equal in speed, NOT in abilities :rollseyes:[/B]

* they are rivals...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Those "aren't" my assessment's, those are the statements, from the BEST PLAYERS from SF saying it. Those are the Best SF players from the world agreeing with the notion, not just my "opinion".

Judging by your saying above, you've never been to a tournament, and if you have, you've never been to a real SF tournament with the best players.

Nobody who has high lvl of SF competition would disagree on my statement above.

* you just laid out your cards... you are watching dumb players...

Originally posted by JustFrame
Lastly, I'm not going to bother replying to second post, it's just a joke now, all I'm doing is repeating myself and your doing nothing but going "I'm thinking outside of the box" or more like "these are my opinon" comments.

Which hold absolutely no water in a debate such as this, face the facts man, Ryu is stronger and better then Ken, plain and simple. I've told you already, read the actual Street Fighter Canon Guide.

Ryu is better then Ken.

If you continue on with this, then you definitely are doing nothing but trolling simply for the sake of trying to argue.

* you cannot even answer the open questions? what a loser... it seems like you just won a versus battle using Ryu and you made him a god... very revolting... you're stubborn and touchy, that's fanboyism... 😉

Originally posted by JustFrame

So let's just "magically" say that Ken did "infact" win a few more matches then what I posted. It would still be Ryu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ken by a huge landslide.

Originally posted by peejayd * wow, i've never seen any bigger Ryu fanboy than you... so stubborn and so touchy... actually, in the last post, i tried to mellow down and quip, but this is great... jeez... you're not even worth it...

* i'll try to answer some of your idiocies other than the "Ryu>>>Ken" thingy you always blab about...

* simple question = simple answer... you can't even do that...

* oh yeah... the cheapshot...

For the last time, post up something legit...not comicbooks that aren't canon and have absolutely no reliance to the actual characters into backing them as a character. You have proven absolutely nothing on your side besides your opinion of "I think Ken is cooler" comments.

Me saying Ryu>>>>Ken is not my opinion, that's Capcom's official statements.

If I'm a fanboy for saying so then I guess that makes me a Capcom Fanboy.

Originally posted by peejayd * and yet there is Violent Ken in SNK vs. Capcom, why? are you insecure that Violent Ken is cooler than Evil Ryu? that more players use him? that he is very powerful in the game? yeah, you're just an insecure fanboy...

First off, Violent Ken is only decent in that game, he's not even that good. In fact, Chunli who's just a regular character is as good as Violent Ken, if you've actually played this game competitively. In fact, Ryu is just as good as V. Ken in this game as well.

You want to know who's the real powerhouses in SnkvsCapcom? Zero and Geese...why? Zero with the crazy infinites, and Geese with his ridiculous rushdown and damage potential.

Also, please don't try to derail this into a "You think V. Ken is cooler then E. Ryu" debate. That's immaturity right there, from Post #1, I've clearly stated to you, and to everyone here that Dark Ryu is vastly more powerful then Violent Ken.

How?

Ryu is utilizing the full potential of Ansatsuken, meaning he would be utilizing abilities that would be almost on par with Gouki.

Ken is NOT utilizing anything, Violent Ken is merely a Ken who is being controlled. His abilities are not so vastly different that he becomes an absolute walking phenom that Dark Ryu becomes.

Again, one is utilizing the full potential of their arts, the other is just simply being mind controlled.

That'd be like saying that Psycho Ryu is as powerful as Dark Ryu, and Psycho Ryu actually existed alas Alpha 3 when Bison controlled Ryu.

Simply not true, completely false.

Again, where is the fanboy notion? I simply don't see it, just stating out the facts.

Violent Ken was made from the notion of the Ken being controlled by Bison from SFII:AM, pure and simple, no super ridiculous powers that puts him in league with someone like Dark Ryu.

Originally posted by peejayd * first, Evil Ryu is more popular, who the heck cares? it's still him anyway... secondly, you will not tell me what to say, you fanboy...

Yet this fanboy (Pointing at me) is the only one who has posted up real canon reasons why Ryu>>>>>>>>>>>Ken. Unlike someone I know here.

Originally posted by peejayd * i did not say that Ryu is fighting back...

Right...that's why you said that Ryu was really, trying to defend and doing his best right? Want me to quote you on it?

Go back and read your post again, Ryu did absolutely nothing except try to defend once and a while, otherwise he took the full punishment.

Violent Ken ='s SFII:AM Bison Controlled Ken, simple answer solved, even Snk stated this themselves, get with it. Reasons why Dark Ryu>>>>>V. Ken.

Originally posted by peejayd * why don't you try to watch it again? eventhough Ryu is not fighting back, he is still trying to defend himself... and Ken destroyed his defense...

Ryu did almost absolutely nothing, he saw attacks come in, and took the blows. He got struck by a 7+hit string and only dodged the single last shot. He blocked attacks that he clearly would have been able to have avoided.

Case and point....Ryu was not trying to outclass Ken, only simply believing that Ken would at one point overcome this and realize who he was fighting.

My goodness, your unbelievable sometimes, and btw, the Ken there was no different then the Ken before he was mind controlled mind...and yeah, guess who was the one that was able to actually do something on Bison...yeah...Ryu.

Originally posted by peejayd * are you out of your freakin' mind? it is you who said that "natural talent is garbage"...

When I said natural talent is garbage was from your statement saying that Ken had natural talent "thus" the reason why he was as good as Ryu. Then you said that the only reason why "Ryu" is better is because Ken had a family while Ryu trains all day.

You where wrong, I made it very clear to you, that Ryu was stomping on Ken's face ever since they started learning under Gouken. So since Day #1, it's been Ryu>>>>>>>>>>Ken.

If Ken "had more natural" talent, then he should have been better then Ryu before he went on his super degree hardcore training yes? The answer is NO, Ken still got blown out of the water by Ryu, simple true and answer.

That was why I said natural talent is garbage from the statement you gave me earlier.

I stand wrong though, Ken is actually better then 80% of the cast, besides the characters on Ryu's Tier and above, which is only another tier.

So simply put, although Ken loses out to Ryu almost always, he can still pretty much almost own everyone else.

Originally posted by peejayd * having a family and business is a big excuse... still, Ken beat Ryu despite having a family...

Riight....considering since having a family Ken has not even beaten Ryu yet. I honestly don't know what you've been reading, but ever since Ken has gotten married to Elize, his win record against Ryu has been ZERO.

Originally posted by peejayd * yeah... take from the Ryu fanboy...

Read the Street Fighter Canon Guide, it's educational, or are you just simply refusing to not read it? Maybe that's why you keep calling me a fanboy, lol.

Originally posted by peejayd * dedication? hands down... Ryu wins... but according to you, natural talent is garbage...

Ryu wouldn't of gotten where he's at if he didn't have natural talent, Ryu wouldn't be recognized by the most powerful characters in the SF world if he didn't have natural talent. Ken wouldn't own 80% of the SF cast if he didn't have natural talent.

My reply above explains about the natural talent already, so I won't go any further on it here.

Originally posted by peejayd * by punching Evil Ryu in the gut... and he collapses...

Which never ever took place Alpha Movie is not the canon Alpha Storyline.

Originally posted by peejayd * Ken's victory >>>>>>>>>> Ryu's victory... Ryu cheated, Ken did not...

How did Ryu cheat? Did he use some cheatcode to make him overcome Sagat? Yes, Ryu struck Sagat when he was lending out a hand, yeah, a cheap shot, but cheating?

Please man, Ryu still had to contend with stronger opponents then what Ken was facing at the US Karate Tournament. Ryu was able to stand toe to toe with Sagat, something that nearly 95% of the SF cast cannot do, besides the Super Elites.

He won off of a Metsu-Shoryuken, however as to how that's cheating? You ask me how?

Should I start calling Ken's win a cheat win too? Since Ryu was more concerned about Satsu-No-Hadou then confronting Ken?

Get out of here man, both of those wins where not truly wins, but to call one cheating is atrocious.

Originally posted by peejayd * do you have a problem in reading comprehension? i did not compare the SF and US tournament... i just said, there are other good fighters who participated there...

It was clear by your notion, you where trying to make it as though Ken was fighting super tough competition and just as good competition...which is absolutely not true.

You where trying to say that "Ken is just as good, because the competition in the Karate Tournament was just as fierce." Completely False.

No tournament is on par with the Street Fighter Tournament, plain and simple.

Originally posted by peejayd * let me repeat to the Ryu fanboy: "the red outfit was trademarked to Ken not to stand out from Ryu, but to stand out from everybody else and to reflect Ken's flashy style of fighting"... and that was stated by Capcom, so shut the hell up...

OFFICIAL STATEMENTS READ BELOW

"He wears a red gi because when he trained with Ryu under Gouken, he saw
that Ryu was better so he wanted to stand out more and took on a red gi."

Taken from Ken's SF Canon Guide Profile

End of Debate, you fail.

Please, do not bring this up again, you are simply making yourself look foolish.

Not every character in game is going to have the "same advantage" some characters simply have far more then others.

In Ryu and Ken's case, Ryu has come out on the top more so then Ken has.

Originally posted by peejayd * you cannot even answer the open questions? what a loser... it seems like you just won a versus battle using Ryu and you made him a god... very revolting... you're stubborn and touchy, that's fanboyism... 😉 [/B]

Let me put it simply to you, my statements where never a "This is my opinion" statement.

I have made it very clearly to you, why I've stated Ryu>Ken, and that is because Capcom has officially stated Ryu>>>Ken. Ryu has proven this within the storyline of the SF Series that he is in fact the better fighter.

Ryu has been recognized by the super elites as the one with the most potential.

All of these are official, so what fanboyism are you really speaking of?

Who was it here that made Violent Ken the character that he actually wasn't meant to be.

"HAD" you of actually read Snk's official statement, you would have known that Violent Ken is a carbon copy of the SFII:AM Ken.

So again, the mere fact that you have never ever read the Canon SF Guide, the fact that you bring up "this is my opinions" and then try to back it up with with statements from comicbooks and the SF Animes...which btw, aren't even canon...who truly is the "insert character name" fanboy here?

I would only be a fanboy if this was a Ryu vs Gouki who would win thread and I kept on saying Ryu>>>>>>>>>Gouki because I said so.

However this is Ken...someone that Ryu is in fact, a better fighter over.

Originally posted by peejayd * tell me why Ryu was seduced by the Dark Hadou in the moment he struck Sagat with the Metsu Shoryuken? it was stated by Capcom that Ryu refused to accept defeat... the Metsu Shoryuken was a cheapshot while Sagat tried to help Ryu up, because Sagat knows the battle is over...

* Ryu agreed to fight Ken fair and square... can't your thick skull admit that Ryu cheated Sagat? and Ken did not cheat to win the fight with Ryu?

Ryu did not rig the win over Sagat, even Sagat has claimed it to be a defeat on him against Ryu. So no, you are wrong, it's just atrocious for you to ride on this notion, when everyone on there has stated Ryu bested Sagat.

Not a "clean" win, but still a win, much like how Ken defeated Ryu, not a "clean" win, but still a win regardless.

Yet, does this even remove the fact that Ryu is still clearly better then Ken? Oh yeah, it doesn't, my point exactly.

Originally posted by peejayd * two wins in the tournament... but both Ken and Ryu made 20394892038209 match-ups, more than you'll ever know... logic dictates that in those matches, they have wins over each other... Ken is Ryu's eternal rival, not a jobber nor a punching bag...

Indeed, they are eternal rivals, however being rivals doesn't always mean "we are equal". It has been clear from Capcom's statements that it's been Ryu>>>>>>>>>>Ken majority of the times. Since Day #1...how many times do I have to tell you this.

How many times do I have to tell you that Ryu is the better fighter over Ken. He has bested Ken far, and alot more then Ken over Ryu, this has been mentioned, and stated very clearly.

So where does my statements lose water? Where? Ken defeats a Ryu consumed in conflict with Satsu-No-Hadou, Ken most likely defeated Ryu during SFII...yet Pre-SF1, and SFIII which is practically everything else, Ryu completely pawns him.

Have you've actually noticed that there has been only one match up that Ken has actually won in which Ryu most likely would have been in the fight (SFII). Yet Pre-SF1, and SFIII, all of the matches Ryu would have been in the fight, he's been the clear cut stronger, better fighter?

That should be pretty crystal clear to you, and please, if you bring up Sagat vs Ryu again, I'll just laugh. Considering again, if it was Ken vs Sagat...Ken would have gotten completely destroyed by Sagat, considering Ryu barely won, even though he was above Ken.

Originally posted by peejayd * how? that's just a fanboy statement...

That isn't a fanboy statement when Capcom has officially stated Ryu>>>>Ken Pre-SF1. So should we start calling Capcom liar's now?

Originally posted by peejayd * that's the point... Ryu knows how Ken fights and Ken knows how Ryu fights... that is why it is very illogical to say - like what you've said - that Ken cannot beat Ryu...

I never, not once stated that Ken did not beat Ryu, because Ken has actually achieved this. However, what I do say is this...Ryu is the far better, more stronger and better fighter then Ken.

Ryu has PROVEN this by besting Ken far more then what Ken has ever done to Ryu through out their entire life time together as rivals.

It has been stated by Capcom that Ryu is the better fighter over Ken.

How are these "fanboy" remarks, when Capcom has officially, remember, officially stated it so? You tell me, if anything, your the fanboy. Going on talking about how Violent Ken is "just as good" as Dark Ryu.

That's an absolute complete utter joke.

Originally posted by peejayd * are you blind? Sagat can destroy Ken as crystal clear as how Sagat destroyed Ryu... Ryu just cheated Sagat...

Very simple here, during SF1...

Sagat>Ryu>>>Ken, does that take away from the fact that Ryu was not better then Ken.

Like I've said before, all win's in SF aren't always clean...Alex defeated Gill and won SFIII, should he be as strong as Ryu or Ken now?

Get out of here man, Sagat did not destroy Ryu, he only had an upper hand.

Originally posted by peejayd * they are rivals...

Much like how Hwoarang is to Jin, yet Jin has beasted the monsters like T. Ogre and Hei/Kazuya/Jinpachi...should we start considering Hwoarang in the same league as Jin, just simply because Hwoarang can fight solidly against Jin?

Your a complete walking contradiction now, Ryu and Ken are rivals yes, but that doesn't remove the fact that it's still Ryu>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ken.

You can still be rivals even though your rival is much better then you are, hopefully that makes sense to you.

Originally posted by peejayd * you just laid out your cards... you are watching dumb players...

LOL...right, guys like Tomo Ohira, the greatest SFII Player of All Time who won 150+ Tournaments at a time when the competition for SFII was at it's absolute peak and competitive drive.

He only took 2nd place 4 times, and the rest where all 1st place finishes.

What about Daigo Umehara...you know, the guy who beasted Justin Wong another SF great during Evolution 2004...yeah...he must be a dumb player too right?

Oh wait...what about guys like Alex Valle, or the Wolfe Bros, or the japanese players like Kuni and Nuki, etc, etc.

Yes...all of these guys who play SF on the competitive lvl, that I've myself played more then once before in my lifetime..yep...these guys must be "dumb players right".

Yet if you where to ask anyone who's been the better overall character Tier Wise between Ryu and Ken within the SF series, they will all tell you very clearly Ryu.

A players abilities can only go so far...you mean to tell me that someone like Sean in SFIII:3S who has crappy hit-confirms, crappy Super Arts, horrible options is just as good as someone like Yun. Who with Genei-Jin can destroy you for nearly half your life with a single hit-confirm from Genei-Jin.

Or that T.Hawk in ST has as many options as someone like Balrog who can mix up throw option you to death, or high/low mixups, with a powerful rushdown game, not to mention the best super in the entire game.

Please man, you have no idea what you are speaking too. The mere fact that you say "It's all about the player not the character" tells me every notion that you have never played a serious tournament in your life.

When you see tournaments like Evolution, where the best players from around the world coming from Japan, S. Korea, Europe, etc, etc, and obviously the US (since it's held in the US) come together and play a game like SFIII:3S.

Guess who's almost always in the Top 8 Place finishes...you guessed it...Yun, Chunli, Chunli, Chunli, Ken, Yun, Chunli, and a random Makoto here and there.

If it was all about "characters" skills...why aren't more top Ryu players placing in the top 8? Why is it always dominated by Yun, Chun, and Ken?

Plain and simple, these three characters have far more advantages over the other characters.

Originally posted by brainchild81
-snip-

Considering Ken openly admitted that Ryu>>>>>>>>>>>>Ken, reasons why he dunned the Red Gi.

I guess people here fail to realize that you can still be rivals even though you may not be as good as your rival.

Ever seen Sagat and Adon...Sagat is leagues better then Adon, yet they are rivals.

Get the facts straight, Ryu is stronger, better then Ken.

You said far better & stuff like that. You've yet to prove it. It's the degree that you seem to be off on. Quote me better than that next time please.

Originally posted by ThoraxeRMG
Heh, no
Ken out speeds him.

I have faced people quicker than me in combat and regular sports, yet it makes no difference if you are smart enough to handle such an opponent. Ryu is alot more than capable of that. Especially that he rates more in experience unlike Ken's aimless brutte stregnth.

I'm pretty sure that Tiamat's Street Fighter plot/canon guide did say that Ken DID admit to Ryu being better.