Beyonder vs LT

Originally posted by Galan007
These days there are infinite multiverses within the Marvel omniverse:

And LT exists in, and acts as the judge of, all multiverses simultaneously:

Yes, Beyonder was certainly millions of times more powerful than the multiversal LT of 1985, but LT's scope/range of power has grown, well, by an infinite, infinitude since then. Not saying he would defeat Beyonder, but I definitely understand where the others are coming from.

👆

@galan&Leo, This is like most threads about opinions, I gave mine, nothing more nothing less, I don't think that my opinion is a fact or the ultimate truth, thankfully I am not that pretentious yet, but I am glad that someone at least gave my reasoning a chance.

@discussion, In my opinion. LT during Marvels Multiverse time, was the judge of that Multiverse, his greatest judgement was the Supernova IIRC and he was "repelled" by an alternate Reed Richards IIRC. His power as a Multiversal judge however was supposed to be ehm, Multiversal. Later however, when Marvel became a Omniverse/Megaverse, he held two Megaverses in his hands, represented by the two Marvel Brothers, and even denied them their conflict for now, even though they were supposed to be Megaversal. This implies that he was more powerful than two Megaversal beings. If he is more powerful now than earlier will be seen once we know who killed him.

DC has it's own Omniverse, as oxmoronic as this might sound, Superman didn't save the Marvel U and all other companies by vibrating in his comic back then^^. So the DC Omniverse exists apart from the Marvel Ominverse. Also the DC Universe Brother never appeared in a Marvel exclusive comic nor did the Spectre.

That is just my stance^^.

What I have seen as annoying was the cherrypicking of quotes and words, like "all of time (+WOW)" but then ignoring Omniverse and other stuff. That is not debating, that is twisting selected quotes and scans, accompanied by extremly subjective wall of text, in order to force tis subjective opinion upon others like it is a fact. Just saiyan.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Are you that much of chicken? Lets tear your whole argument apart, shall we?

Originally posted by abhilegend

1) You said that Adv. of X-men 12 retconned DC vs Marvel.
Totally false.
2)Then you flip-flopped and said that it only changed their status and not their history.
Again false.
3)Then you again flip-flopped and said that the brothers were still personification of DC/Marvel yet LT/Spectre's "*****".
I asked you to provide the proof when I know you don't have any.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Now you're parading your "cheerleaders" and accusing me of making fallacies?

As for "fallacies" .. yes, you are the forum's clown.

You get owned daily, and your reputation as an intransigent bafoon has tainted our forum.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Laughable. Be a man and do your own work. And don't flip-flop ten times in two pages.

I remember I tried to debate with you once before regarding Thor Corps mini #1-4,
when you lied back to back, like arranging random scans in order to fit your fallacies.

Yea, remember chump right here:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=596828&pagenumber=7

😂 You tried to push the idea that one has to control the concept of "Time"
in order to open a Dimensional portal to another time-period. (false)

You were unequivocally wrong! I proved it, but you persisted and were proven wrong repeatedly,
yet you could not stop yourself from continuing on with the bull shit.

** So, you picked the wrong fight son.
Stick to attacking me personally,
at-least that's just an empty meanngless shit-filled opinion
I can't dismantle with scanned proof like everything else you post concerning Marvel.

....you have a pet iguana?

Originally posted by Mr Master
serious debator's time.

^^ Yea, might as well troll.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

This is like most threads about opinions, I gave mine, nothing more nothing less, I don't think that my opinion is a fact or the ultimate truth, thankfully I am not that pretentious yet, but I am glad that someone at least gave my reasoning a chance.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

LT during Marvels Multiverse time, was the judge of that Multiverse

Beyond Realm was disconnected.

Btw. Does anyone have proof of the LT judging anything in another multiverse? ❌

But we do have evidence that the LT (even if he's more powerful than) CAN'T judge something from another multiverse:

eg. Starbrand and Rune.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

his greatest judgement was the Supernova IIRC

Anyway, the LT ripped Korvac's entire universe from the multiverse by encasing it in an impenetrable barrier.

That's at-least pure universal manipulation for ya,
but yet, LT decides to use a puny sun against a guy who absorbed Celestials and cosmics? 😐

Instead of his own personal at-least universal manipulating power.

Dumb shit.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

and he was "repelled" by an alternate Reed Richards IIRC.

That aside, Reed never did anything directly to the LT.

The LT & Cosmics merged their powers into a ball of energy,
then Reed shot his Galactus killing canon into the concentrated ball of energy,
this then cause a feedback bfring LT and cosmics.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

His power as a Multiversal judge however was supposed to be ehm, Multiversal.

There is nothing of significance for the LT to judge in other multiverses.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Later however, when Marvel became a Omniverse/Megaverse, he held two Megaverses in his hands, represented by the two Marvel Brothers, and even denied them their conflict for now, even though they were supposed to be Megaversal. This implies that he was more powerful than two Megaversal beings.

Brothers were never two Marvel megaverses. I'm 100% confident in that fact nowadays.

In fact, up until the 2007 bios, Marvel (officially) was a single Megaverse,
so, unless the LT held two Marvel companies in his hand, it makes no sense.

Still puts him above all of Marvel though, so we can agree on that.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

DC has it's own Omniverse, as oxmoronic as this might sound, Superman didn't save the Marvel U and all other companies by vibrating in his comic back then^^. So the DC Omniverse exists apart from the Marvel Ominverse. Also the DC Universe Brother never appeared in a Marvel exclusive comic nor did the Spectre.

As far as the story "Adv. of the X-Men" is concerned,
there is no doubt that was the original plot of the story,
which was, DC Brother and Spectre were involved in that one scenario.

Imo though, it was completely pointless to add that to the story.
I still can't grasp what DC's Mike Carlin was trying to achieve here.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

What I have seen as annoying was the cherrypicking of quotes and words, like "all of time (+WOW)" but then ignoring Omniverse and other stuff. That is not debating, that is twisting selected quotes and scans, accompanied by extremly subjective wall of text, in order to force tis subjective opinion upon others like it is a fact. Just saiyan.

This on the other hand is gibberish.

Originally posted by leonidas
not really. authority only has a limited conflation with power, and it's inconsistent. what authority did molecule man have? what 'range'? what about wyncham? no 'range' to speak of. even thanos with the ig had a tiny'range' compared to lt but his power approached lt's own. these are just off the top of my head and i've no doubt you and others can come up with better examples. i am surprised that so many willingly ascribe to such a fallacious equation. using that logic, roma should be the most uber of all in the omniverse. there is no reason at all to suppose that lt increased in personal power, nor that he needed to.

personally i don't very much care about the issue, and it MAY be that we CAN somehow, arbitrarily grant lt more power, but i'd be willing to wager that in terms of the 'marvel comic reality' lt is and would be considered the same now as he was then. you, and others, as readers, have granted him greater power based on this 'outside' perspective you have as a reader. that's not a perspective the characters themselves have, nor should it be assumed that said outside perspective would impact the comic book world. it bears repeating: there is absolutely zero on panel proof to suggest lt has somehow received this accredited 'amp'. the logic you cite isn't enough imo to come to that conclusion. at all.

I get your point, and even though i think that the Sheriff analogy is inapplicable to LT's - and any cosmic character's - case, consider this: Do you honestly believe that the LT who was exhibiting megaversal-level powers in the late 90s is on the same level as the one who was struggling against Nebulos pre-SW2?

Just saying.

Also, you're looking for an official statement regarding LT's amp. But that's not how things always work in comics. Silver Age Spectre never got any official amp from his Golden Age days. Yet, anyone who actually read those eras, would tell you that there is a significant difference between their respective power-levels. Same thing goes to Mangog, Ion, etc...The amp doesn't have to be stated. As long as it's observable, it can be applied. You get my point?

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm serious friends, after years of going one way, I've been considering for some time
that these terms are interchangable (omniverse and multiverse) but not always.
The funny thing is that to me the term "megaverse" is the odd ball out.

Because for Marvel,
it should be either or (omniverse/megaverse) same meaning imo = all universes pertaining to said company.

But better yet, Marvel should stop using the term "omniverse" cause that confuses shit,
they should stick to "megaverse" to represent them entirely,
and leave "omniverse" as everything including other companies. (as it was meant ot be)

Kinda strange, I'm enjoying this discussion now. Thankfully true debators joined the dialogue.

I already said this to you in the other thread, not sure if you read it. Asteroth outright mentioned that she was going to destroy "all megaverses" in 2005, implying that there are multiple megaverses in Marvel (along with the LT instance). While the omniverse has never been used in plural not does it make any sense to.

So yeah, omniverse > megaverse > multiverse (Within Marvel comics).

And you're confusing the terms based on the context in which it's being used.

From a broader perspective, the term "omniverse" means all fiction and all possible universes, while a megaverse becomes the collection of all universes/multiverses in a certain company (like Marvel). And that's why the term "megaverse" is defined as such in the handbooks, because it's defined from a broader perspective which considers all of fiction as an omniverse and Marvel is just a part of it, that's why Marvel is regarded as being a megaverse only.

From a narrower perspective (When the terms are used within Marvel comics), the term "omniverse" does equate to all universes/multiverses/megaverses within Marvel, while a megaverse equated to multiple multiverses like you have been saying previously.

Kubik: "The Tribunal exists in all multiverseS simultaneously, always prepared to enact judgement."

If there were nothing of significance in said infinitude of multiverseS, I doubt LT would waste his time existing in, and judging, them. 😉

Originally posted by operator616

I get your point, and even though i think that the Sheriff analogy is inapplicable to LT's - and any cosmic character's - case, consider this: Do you honestly believe that the LT who was exhibiting megaversal-level powers in the late 90s is on the same level as the one who was struggling against Nebulos pre-SW2?
Nebulos was a 1967 story, when just about no one gave a crap about obscure characters like the LT.
That's not an excuse, it's jst times were more tamed back then.

That aside, that was Nebulos' only appearances and his great power wasn't within himself,
but that pissy Staff of his, which was able to absorb LT's energy attacks.

That's a plot device no different than Protege copying powers.
[QUOTE=15008058]Originally posted by operator616

[B]Also, you're looking for an official statement regarding LT's amp. But that's not how things always work in comics. Silver Age Spectre never got any official amp from his Golden Age days. Yet, anyone who actually read those eras, would tell you that there is a significant difference between their respective power-levels. Same thing goes to Mangog, Ion, The amp doesn't have to be stated. As long as it's observable, it can be applied. You get my point?

Originally posted by operator616

I already said this to you in the other thread, not sure if you read it.
Asteroth outright mentioned that she was going to destroy "all megaverses" in 2005, implying that there are multiple megaverses in Marvel (along with the LT instance). While the omniverse has never been used in plural not does it make any sense to.

Perhaps a single rogue writer talking out of his ass using improper terms?

And the "Omniverse" has been used in plural: X-O Man/Iron Man CCU madness. Senseless. Actually rogue writers.

Originally posted by operator616

So yeah, omniverse > megaverse > multiverse (Within Marvel comics).

Originally posted by operator616

And you're confusing the terms based on the context in which it's being used.

From a broader perspective, the term "omniverse" means all fiction and all possible universes, while a megaverse becomes the collection of all universes/multiverses in a certain company (like Marvel). And that's why the term "megaverse" is defined as such in the handbooks, because it's defined from a broader perspective which considers all of fiction as an omniverse and Marvel is just a part of it, that's why Marvel is regarded as being a megaverse only.

From a narrower perspective (When the terms are used within Marvel comics), the term "omniverse" does equate to all universes/multiverses/megaverses within Marvel, while a megaverse equated to multiple multiverses like you have been saying previously.

All these endless multiverseS, and now multiple megaverseS ...
yet, we've seen what? 2, maybe 3 other/different multiverses only.

That's a long, long way from infinite multiverses, and then beyond that a grouping of infinities. (mega)

Yet, the Marvel cosmic hierarchy stays the same since 1985:

1992:

2014:

Originally posted by Mr Master
To this day, I've never seen the LT called anything other than the "Multiversal Judge."

There is nothing of significance for the LT to judge in other multiverses.

Yet he held two Marvel Megaverses in his hand and even had power of the two Marvel Megaverse-Guardian-Brothers.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually, that scene with the Brothers is a representation of DC and Marvel.

Brothers were never two Marvel megaverses. I'm 100% confident in that fact nowadays.

In fact, up until the 2007 bios, Marvel (officially) was a single Megaverse,
so, unless the LT held two Marvel companies in his hand, it makes no sense.

That is your opinion but I disagree to 100%. Marvel didn't dare to include Spectre in their comic, neither drawn nor by direct name, they had no right to use DC or make it a Megaverse. They simply can't use DC in their books, neither chars nor Universes. So it isn't DC, simple as that. Thoe Megaverses represent Marvel and if the totality of Marvel is in one of those two Megaverses, the other one is still a part of the Marvel Ominiverse but no other company. Marvel can dream about being able to have the right to dictate whatr other companies are, but this is just arrogant and meaningless and everything but official or a true.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Still puts him above all of Marvel though, so we can agree on that.

Originally posted by Mr Master

We agree, Supes did nothing for Marvel, just like Wanda didn't re-creat DC.
Which is why I stated earlier that using the term "omniverse" confuses shit.
and both companies should just use "megaverse" to represent their entirety.

But they don't. DC sees itself as an Omniverse and that is what it officially is, an DC Omniverse, where Marvel isn't represented except by rip offs or homages. The same is true for Marvel.
No other opinion on this should matter, only the official stance of the companies and if they differ, you take for canon what the company says about itself not about others. That is in my eyes the most logical stance.

Originally posted by Mr Master

As far as the story "Adv. of the X-Men" is concerned,
there is no doubt that was the original plot of the story,
which was, DC Brother and Spectre were involved in that one scenario.

Imo though, it was completely pointless to add that to the story.
I still can't grasp what DC's Mike Carlin was trying to achieve here.

Your other points while mostly wrong were on topic.

This on the other hand is gibberish.

Adv. of the X-Men is still a Marvel exclusive book without DCs consens, i mean the company, nor it's logo. Spectre never appeared there nor did DCs Brother or the DC Verse. That is purely your opinion, but to each his own I guess.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ Yea, might as well troll.

Leo doesn't agree that the LT grew in power.
There is no on panel or handbook evidence of any kind that sugests this either.

It is not about agreeing, they both see the reasoning behind my stance and understand it. You don't have to agree in order to still be able to see the point of view of others just by giving it a chance. There is nothing bad with disagreeing btw, nor with having differen't opinions but once people try to force their opinion upon others, without seeing the possibility of those other opinions being duh possible too, it starts to get ugly.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Which was all of canon Marvel at the time. So, LT was the judge of everything.

Beyond Realm was disconnected.

Btw. Does anyone have proof of the LT judging anything in another multiverse? ❌

But [b]we do have evidence that the LT (even if he's more powerful than) CAN'T judge something from another multiverse:

eg. Starbrand and Rune.
[/B]

And everything was smaller than it is now.

Yes, the proof is in his hand, two Megeverses (multiple Multiverses) where he let's those Marvel Brothers wait for their show. If that is not a judgement or display of power over those Megaverses...

Originally posted by Mr Master

Which is nonsense. That 1982 "What If" story really pissed on itself.

Anyway, the LT ripped Korvac's entire universe from the multiverse by encasing it in an impenetrable barrier.

That's at-least pure universal manipulation for ya,
but yet, LT decides to use a puny sun against a guy who absorbed Celestials and cosmics? 😐

Instead of his own personal at-least universal manipulating power.

Dumb shit.

PIS, which has never been reference in any handbook that I know of.

That aside, Reed never did anything directly to the LT.

The LT & Cosmics merged their powers into a ball of energy,
then Reed shot his Galactus killing canon into the concentrated ball of energy,
this then cause a feedback bfring LT and cosmics.

PIS or not it happened. Later he had no problem with handling Megaversal abstracts...

But we are again in a field of opinions, so to each his own.

The last hierarchy you posted(from the Thanos Annual) is very inaccurate, imo... Odin, Zeus, and Kronos in the same tier as the multiversal Celestials? No way.

Originally posted by Mr Master

I think Marvel writers are the ones confusing things.

All these endless multiverseS, and now multiple megaverseS ...
yet, we've seen what? 2, maybe 3 other/different multiverses only.

That's a long, long way from infinite multiverses, and then beyond that a grouping of infinities. (mega)

Yet, the Marvel cosmic hierarchy stays the same since 1985:

1992:

2014:

this is what i mean with cherrypicking btw. Now you decide that the Marvel writers confuse things but you let it slip if other writers use something similar to things they can't use. See the guy as a rouge writer and not a representation of DC then 👆

It is always an infinite long way from some on panel Universes to an infinite number of Universes/Multiverses and Megaverses. Just sayin.

Edit: I though I am on ignore? 😂

Originally posted by Galan007

Kubik: "The Tribunal exists in all multiverseS simultaneously, always prepared to enact judgement."

If there were nothing of significance in said infinitude of multiverseS,
I doubt LT would waste his time existing in, and judging, them.

Yet, LT can't enact judgement on anything from another multiverse. Like Starbrand, like Rune.

But anyway, can you name a single thing in another multiverse that's relevant cosmically speaking?

Personally, the most powerful person/thing I found was the Starbrand.
Starbrand was a global power in the New Universe,
and it was the most powerful object in the entire Multiverse that contains that universe.

I'd also like to see the LT in another "multiverse" too.

Originally posted by Galan007

The last hierarchy you posted(from the Thanos Annual) is very inaccurate, imo... Odin, Zues, and Kronos in the same tier as the multiversal Celestials? No way.

I don't really care about Odin being misplaced, it's about the same cast of Cosmic characters:

Here are other instances:

... basically the same since 1985 ...

I could post every single appearance of the Marvel Comsic hierarchy from it's inception,
it will always be about the same. But you already know this.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Reads like hyperbole to me.

Perhaps a single rogue writer talking out of his ass using improper terms?

And the "Omniverse" has been used in plural: X-O Man/Iron Man CCU madness. Senseless. Actually rogue writers.

Sure, believe that if you want. i cited an on-panel instance, whether you dismiss it or acknowledge it is your own business. Nothing more i can say regarding the matter. Though i also did say why megaverses being mentioned on panel within Marvel comics does fit together, which is why i don't believe the writer being rogue.

It wasn't used in plural. It said "omniversal planes". Which means different levels of reality on an omniversal scale.

Originally posted by Mr Master

All these endless multiverseS, and now multiple megaverseS ...
yet, we've seen what? 2, maybe 3 other/different multiverses only.

That's a long, long way from infinite multiverses, and then beyond that a grouping of infinities. (mega)

Pretty sure it's more than 3. But the fact that we've actually seen other multiverses + references of the existence of infinite multiverses (on panel and in letter pages) should be proof enough.

Come to think of it, how many alternate realities have we seen? a 1000? That's a long, long way from infinite realities. Yet i don't see you arguing that there aren't infinite realities in Marvel.

And the reason we don't see that many other multiverses because Marvel comics' mainstream multiverse is the one containing 616, that's where most of the stories are centered.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

this is what i mean with cherrypicking btw. Now you decide that the Marvel writers confuse things but you let it slip if other writers use something similar to things they can't use. See the guy as a rouge writer and not a representation of DC then

Like Tom Brevoort is for Marvel:

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

It is always an infinite long way from some on panel Universes to an infinite number of Universes/Multiverses and Megaverses. Just sayin.

Good luck with that.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Edit: I though I am on ignore?

Originally posted by Mr Master
😆 ... poor scorned child.

** So, you picked the wrong fight son.
Stick to attacking me personally,
at-least that's just an empty meanngless shit-filled opinion
I can't dismantle with scanned proof like everything else you post concerning Marvel.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Unfortunately for your point,
[b]Mike Carlin, the guy who helped write "Adv. of the X-Men," isn't just some writer (rogue or not)
he was actually the Excutive Editor of DC ... you know, the guy in charge.

Like Tom Brevoort is for Marvel:

[/B]

Which is still a rouge if he tries to implement something from DC. He can't do this without DCs consent, as he is not DC, that is why DC logo is missing, Spectre never appeares there and this Brother and this Megaverse is still not DC. Easy enough.

Originally posted by Mr Master

Right, still waiting to see another single Megaverse in Marvel,
or perhaps theres that scene where the LT pops up in another multiverse.

Good luck with that.

Well, yea, but you keep trying to taint my name by twisting my posts.
Even while ignored I can read your posts if I wish.

You did, in LTs hand. You saw two and since it can't be DC as DC is according to it's own books a Omniverse this certainly wasn't the DC verse (just a second Marvel Megaverse).

I just tell the truth. You can play the same tone as often as you want, it will never make it a fact and i will still disagree.

Edit: good way to ignore every other point I countered. I guess we agree there.

Originally posted by operator616

Sure, believe that if you want. i cited an on-panel instance, whether you dismiss it or acknowledge it is your own business. Nothing more i can say regarding the matter.

Originally posted by operator616

Though i also did say why megaverses being mentioned on panel within Marvel comics does fit together, which is why i don't believe the writer being rogue.

Originally posted by operator616

It wasn't used in plural. It said "omniversal planes".
Which means different levels of reality on an omniversal scale.

Originally posted by operator616

Pretty sure it's more than 3. But the fact that we've actually seen other multiverses + references of the existence of infinite multiverses (on panel and in letter pages) should be proof enough.

Originally posted by operator616

Come to think of it, how many alternate realities have we seen? a 1000? That's a long, long way from infinite realities. Yet i don't see you arguing that there aren't infinite realities in Marvel.

Also, I'm being funny, but the idea relates more to the alternate realities than multiverseS.

Originally posted by operator616

And the reason we don't see that many other multiverses because Marvel comics' mainstream multiverse is the one containing 616, that's where most of the stories are centered.

This is the major reason why we'll probably Never see the LT in another multiverse.

Heck, even Kaminiski (who's the only writer fitting LT into a multi-Multiversal arena in the FF Annual)
had Kubik/Kosmos journey all of Marvel,
and interestingly enough, it was the Multiverse and the Beyond Realm.

Again, aside from the mysterious BeyonderS in their super huge realm, everything else outside is inconsequential.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Which is still a rouge if he tries to implement something from DC. He can't do this without DCs consent, as he is not DC, that is why DC logo is missing, Spectre never appeares there and this Brother and this Megaverse is still not DC. Easy enough.

Also, that is DC's "consent" ... what ever the Executive Editor says, ... goes.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

You did, in LTs hand. You saw two and since it can't be DC as DC is according to it's own books a Omniverse this certainly wasn't the DC verse (just a second Marvel Megaverse).

So, the LT held Two Marvel companies. nice, and wrong.

Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe

Edit: good way to ignore every other point I countered. I guess we agree there.