When you consider the fact that Satele Shan implicitly absorbs energy from Malgus's lightsaber, takes several seconds to charge her attack, and then still requires several charge-ups and hand motions to deliver the coup de grace, whereas a near-death Yoda expects Skywalker to do it with barely a year of training...
The X wing has to weight at least 15 or so tons just by its size, ignoring the possibility that durasteel is heavier than conventional metals. Then you have to take into account its reactor, either fusion or hypermatter depending on the source, which, at full power, can output multiple times the energy released in Hiroshima every second (examine its circumnavigation of Yavin Prime in a matter of minutes)...
I haven't done the math, but you can see that it's not exactly a case of one being "roflamo overpowered" and the other being subtle and indicative of classic OT brilliance.
Um, it's not just lifting X wings out of swamps to dazzle enemy troopers. You can apply the needed telekinetic force to, say, crush someone's windpipe, or multiple at once.
I know she does. I'm talking about the actual attack, not the circumstances around it. That she has to motion and power up is irrelevant given that while she's doing that she's also pushing Malgus back with the Force.
Yes, I know. Shattering a rock wall like that would still require greater physical force than lifting a 15 ton ship. And what the hell are you mentioning the reactor for? :?
Yeah it is.
Unless you have evidence or feats proving that you can focus your TK like that and use it in that manner, no you can't. Force users whould be capable of tearing their opponents in half with the forces they're throwing around, yet they don't do so.
Besides which obviously a feat of Satale actually pwning someone with a huge shockwave of energy is a lot more impressive in terms of combat applications than Yoda lifting a ship slowly out of the swamp. Yoda needed to really concentrate to do that and required a lot of time to perform that feat.
This is guy is like all the worst parts of Nai, Gideon, Rudy, DS, and myself all wrapped up in a neat little bow. Impossible to get through to, and convinced he's misinterpreted nothing. It's a tad surreal, actually...
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
His stubbornness. Or at least that was a trait of his, maybe not anymore. But his was tempered by an ability to infer text-based tone and intention, so it was never a frustrating thing. Unlike this new guy, he never had the uncanny knack of misconstruing things to such SMHing degrees.
I miss that Gideon. I hope he'll come back to TV soon.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
I know the feeling. Everyone's opinion is valid. Unless it's mine, in which case it's right.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
I didn't analyze the work needed to push the star destroyers out of the star system because I thought you were exclusively referring to literal power when you said "overpowered". I did so because "overpowered" usually is defined by having an excess of capability to do something, and since telekinesis is quantified by how well you can accelerate objects...well, force seemed to be a nice starting point. And it has nothing to do with the attack's being magic or not; magic is still quantified by its ability to affect things, just like any mode of influence.
Furthermore, when we come to your example of Sion's hatred-regeneration, I'd point out that Obi Wan's blue space ghost ability from the OT is more overpowered in every conceivable criteria.
it has greater tactical applications
it can't be defeated with dun moch
it can't be neutralized via incapacitation...or high explosives
it can literally appear anywhere in the galaxy
it doesn't require undying hatred
----oh, and also, it's significantly cheesier to boot, with the dated visual effects and all. But that doesn't matter, because it's from the Original Trilogy, so you apply wholly separate standards to it.
Do you actually have any criteria or logical basis to label half of your examples as overpowered beyond "it just superficially appears so on face value"?
It all comes down to your wanting the Force to be more subtle from an aesthetics standpoint, which has nothing to do with anything being "overpowered".
Furthermore, if you think that the Force Kamehameha is too flashy for your own taste, it must have killed you when Palpatine revealed his Force lightning in RotJ - oh, wait, that's from the original trilogy, so it's just fine, right? Just like how blue space ghosts that can go anywhere aren't "overpowered", but space zombies that you can presumably kill easily with sufficient explosives are.
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But we're discussing whether or not the attack is overpowered, and even if we assume for a moment that the blast is more energetic, that she has to charge it for several seconds and absorb a lightsaber's energy really dampens its combative applications, doesn't it?
I concede that I had not watched the entire video, and did not notice the massive collateral damage after Shan completes her hand-motions, but my primary contention still stands.
The reactor would add a significant amount of mass to the ship, given that it uses a ridiculous amount of energy.
Um, Vader and Dooku have both ripped bolted machinery, applying massive amounts of force to areas smaller than the human figure.
In combat, this is certainly more useful, especially if you can do it through a camera, than a Kamehameha that really is redundant when you have explosives.
Yoda was near death. In RotS, he would have been able to lift it casually. But again, 15 tons (conservatively) applied to an enemy commander's neck through a hologram conference is vastly more potentially "overpowered" than a slow charging Kamehameha.
Wow, you must be no fun at parties. An egotistical ass who takes everything literally, has limited flexibility when it comes to language, has no appreciation of the use of artistic license, doesn't care about overuse of plot devices, and who apparently only watched Dragonball and never got in to Z. What an unlikeable, combative, narrow-minded pedant you are.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
You know, I was going to type up a detailed response to your reply, but I realized that you clearly have no desire or ability to actually debate arguments and contentions using any semblance of logic or evidence. You know, like this.
The fact is that you've continuously flip-flopped and backtracked on your positions, covering up factual errors ("laws of motion don't exist in Star Wars") and suddenly shifting avenues of analysis (you were initially analyzing the quote just as literally as I was). You don't understand the difference between "overpowered" and "thematically inconsistent", employ double standards to dismiss obvious examples in the OT, etc.
And you think dismissing long replies and arguments with one liners makes you intelligent?
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IDK wtf is up with you anyway, since I maintained an entirely cordial and apologetic attitude after your "I hate cardinal numbers" attack, and yet you continued to display a ridiculously haughty and hostile tone.
Last edited by Master Han on Aug 16th, 2013 at 09:56 PM
But nah, man. I'm done. I can't compete with someone like you. Don't have the energy or the patience for it. There was a guy on this forum a few years back with an ironic name that you remind me of (I called him Rudy). An older, more aggressive version of him. He wore me out just like you have. I know better than to keep arguing ad nauseam with someone like Rudy 2.0.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Whether I'm "aggressive" or even "unlikeable" has no relevance to the validity of my arguments. To suggest otherwise would be to employ an "ad hominem".
No, it's my level 50 Revan.
Last edited by Master Han on Aug 16th, 2013 at 10:07 PM
Revan is the heart of the Force. Everybody since the Ancient Egyptians has known that the heart controls emotions, so Revan controls the Force's destiny. Your Hero is a Jedi. Jedi serve the Force. Ergo, per transitive deduce ad absurdum, your hero serves Revan. Everybody serves Revan (except the Exile).
Are you kidding me? Yoda can lift five muntuur stones. Hord is a pansy in comparison.
Abeloth is stronger then both The Son and The Daughter individually; Abeloth probably matches their combined might.
The Son's source of strength is Font of Power.
The Daughter's source of strength is Pool of Knowledge.
NOTE:The Son and The Daughter are equally strong.
Abeloth's source of strength is both aforementioned special kind of nexuses.
Vitiate and Sidious acquired relatively much superior Force abilities.
As pointed out earlier, they siphoned energies from countless beings to fuel their power after their first major transformations. This vastly extended their capacities as Force-users; logically much more so then any mortal.
Abeloth is a dozen times stronger then Luke, as per canon. Scripted fights do not prove much in favor of Luke; he manages to survive overwhelming odds due to being a darling of GL.
This can be given a thought.
I will need to check Plagueis's novel in this regard to learn more about his relative standing.
Krayt was mainly ridiculed by the ancients due to his One Sith ideology.
Krayt helped Luke defeat the main avatar of Abeloth, which is very impressive accomplishment since he didn't die in that encounter. He have some other impressive showings as well; he defeated Wyyrlok in single combat, who in turn, defeated Andeddu in single combat. Krayt got ample time to hone his skills in the dark side and he became the top dog among the Sith eventually, at least in his era.
Bane could be stronger then Krayt but not by a big margin, IMO.
In a much more comprehensive list, I might be able to rank characters more realistically then I have done currently.
Vader doesn't lacks in strength but talent factor due to his cybernetic limitations. Bane and Krayt might be capable of undermining Vader in a direct confrontation on the basis of their relatively superior talents. This doesn't precludes the possibility of Vader being capable of beating them but he is disadvantaged on the whole.
Fair enough?
I just reformed the list of OP, as per my understanding and canonical relevance in this aspect. I agree with your assessment in this case by the way.
Well, this is the point. Fair or not! Vitiate and Sidious became unnatural after their first major transformations.
It is implied in some canonical sources that Vitiate becomes vastly stronger and more capable Force-user in the aftermath of his Nathema's feat. Therefore, this leaves room for Vitiate to be superior then Nihilus and the former is actually canonically superior to Nihilus.
Picture isn't so black and white in this scenario. Both Sidious and Vitiate created enormous supply of reserves to draw strength from with their powers.
Really? In an actual encounter between the two, Luke utterly dominated UnuThul with his raw power.
I am not sure about this. Satele was aided by Malcom to overcome Malgus. Satele certainly dominated Malgus with her sheer Force abilities but then the whole fight has circumstances attached to it at different points. Malgus, in contrast, have very impressive showing in his next duel on the same planet. Later on, both Satele and Malgus further grew in power by the way.
Different challenges might stress Force-users in different manner accordingly. Revan wouldn't have fallen to those Mandalorians by the way; the only difference is that it might have taken him longer to defeat them without aid of Canderous. Revan have amazing combat record on Star Forge as a hint where he had to contend with plethora of Sith forces. In addition, the author pointed out to me that Revan could collapse buildings and such, if he really concentrated towards destructive goals.
Hord moved a 4000 ton class starship once.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Aug 17th, 2013 at 04:46 PM
Anyway, I see Malgus as a clear superior to Satale. He was beating her until Malcom tackled him and just in general comes off as better than her. He was also beating her in Return.
Luke Skywalker has a rather impressive set of feats and accolades that may put him above them both.
He absorbs an AT-AT's laser cannons, and knocks it down with the Force
He rebuilds and destroys Vader's fortress
He manipulates dorvin basals
He has his last-hundred-pages TUF pwnage
He renders himself literally immovable, to even a supermassive black hole
He Force pins a sith lord more powerful than Darth Vader to a chair like a joke
With a glance, he uses hurls a shuttle at a platoon of soldiers
He fools Darth Caedus (more powerful than Darth Vader), his fleet's crew, and his ships' sensors into detecting an imaginary fleet
He amps Jaina and casts a holographic projection of himself onto the Anakin Solo that drives Caedus insane. He also makes Jaina look like Luke. This all fools Caedus, a himself master of illusions.
He develops a frightening level of foresight that allows him to precisely predict the outcome of a mission before it happens, and jams and manipulates Caedus's own.
He knows shatterpoint, fold space and a variety of other esoteric abilities, most of which he literally learns in a day, or discovers himself
Luceno states that he intentionally described Skywalker's fighting style in TUF to resemble vaapad
He matches RotJ Vader in sabers in a few years of informal training
Caedus considers him "perhaps the greatest swordsman there ever was"
He disarms Valin Horn with a single strike
He removes an 800 meter spaceship from sight
He creates a lifelike copy of the Falcon to fool enemy ships
He uses presumably some variation of sever Force to free Calllista's soul from Abeloth
Aug 15th, 2013 10:21 PM
