I think we will find alot out in M3 about the control the machines really have over the matrix and Neo. The Architect could be using the choice as another form of control. By giving Neo the choice, it makes Neo feel like he is in control, while the choice is loaded. They load one side to make the other side look small. Neo choose the less loaded side and I think they(the machines) don't know what will happen. How can you know what will happen, if it hasn't already happened?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
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A LOADED CHOICE!!! Filacaduscha!! I love it! You are very correct. It is most definitely a LOADED CHOICE. And it isn't a choice at all because like you said so aptly... it's loaded. The Keymaker said that the doors have "explosives". Any decision like the ones our friends in the story have to make are dangerous ones regardless.
Could we please stop saying their are no choices. The movie states it very simply that there has to be "free" choice or the matrix fales. It dosen't say half choices or considerations it has to be free choices. Now can we put this to rest. To say anything else would be like you are ignoring movie facts.
Gender: Unspecified Location: North Bergen New Jersey
The reason why I say there is "no free choice" is because either way the outcome is the same. That is not choice. All the choices have been already made long ago. Neo is the latest in the long line of Chosen individuals. A true choice means an open situation. This is a closed situation. All the slots have been filled and he only had to "choose" his mate. But the system already knew that Trinity is his choice.
Talking about choice... the A.I. chose Trinity for Neo. Something about the genetic pattern is desirable.
Choice 1. If he would have went through the right door just Zion would be destroyed. Humans in the matri would still be alive.
Choice 2. If he chooses the door on the left than zion falls and matrix crashes.
So to start you are wrong about both choices being the same. But than even thats not true. This has never happened before. It is a new move for a chosen one. Therefore the machines can't no what will happen next.
N-e-ways who is to say that zion will fall. From what we have seen in the movies and trailers the rebels have a chance to win this war. So for you to say that both choices are the same is like saying they lose either way. If that were so why would they make a third movie just for them to lose. Why not just have him pick the other door.
Gender: Unspecified Location: North Bergen New Jersey
No wrong. Just a matter of perception. Even in real life for us we perceive we have a choice and control of our lives whereas in true reality... we don't. But we act as if we actually do individually. The greater reality usually nullifies alot of our "choices". You hear it all the time. So it is the same with the inhabitants of Zion. They perceive they have a choice in survival and surmounting the incredible odds posed by the A.I. Zion will be destroyed and nearly every human in it. All except for 23 individuals. You got to also realize that the A.I. will continue along with the human's incarcerated within it. Zion is a community of 250,000 souls. It's destruction will not incapacitate the A.I. nor the matrix itself. It has billions of people in it. Zion is only 250,000. REalistically speaking there may be many "Zions" around the globe. The Zion we are seeing is only ONE.
Neo and the other “Humans” are no different than any of the other computer programs operating in the Matrix. When you run a computer program it is rigidly bound in its actions by its programming (algorithm). This is just as true for Neo, Trinity, Morpheous, et al. as it is for the Agents, or the Architect.
You might make “choices”, but all of those choices are PRE-DETERMINED by your memories and past experiences. If English is the only language you were taught as a child, then English is the only language you can “choose” to speak.
When you approach a red traffic light can you really “choose” to not stop? How often do you not stop at red lights for no good reason?
This is exactly what the Merovingian was trying to explain to Neo and Morpheous when they met in the restaurant.
Did you see Minority Report? The point is: MOST people will do the expected... We will see what happens in Revolutions.
[edit: btw - it's the same thing the councillor is saying to Neo. They have the choice to turn the machines off, but they won't. I think every once in a while someone chooses different: Anomaly / the One]
Yes. I didn’t like MR nearly as much as the Matrix, but I think they had similar Fatalistic messages. I think that the girl in MR had a lot of similarities to the Oracle.
Agreed, but then again when you approach a red traffic light at a busy intersection you have the “choice” to run it …
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Tuur, the Sentinels will destroy Zion. That is the program that has been played out for 200 years. Now there can be a change in the program and Zion is particially taken down. Remember Neo is more advanced than the other 5 chosen in the past. The Architect/A.I. was pleased to see that. It means that the 23 people chosen to "repopulate" Zion will be of a higher order than those that went before. Most likely Morpheus will pair with Niobe. As for the other 23, it will be up to Neo. They too were chosen by the A.I. for their exceptional genetic qualities that would be beneficial for the A.I. However the end comes to Zion it will come because that is what has been the program.
Our friend THE SERPENT understood what I am saying and he is also very very correct.
As for the comparison to MINORITY REPORT, irrelevant. Why? Because Minority Report deals with absolute real life and not a big artificial intelligence maintaining and supply billions of human minds with a dreamstate that they think is "real".
on the contrary. I believe minority report is a very good movie to comapare with the matrix.
1. They both deal with the future already being known. Thus the people are to go with what has been "seen" to happen.
2. Both movies have the main character go against what was pre-ordained.
The problem with people being able to know the future is a very basic one though it leads to many compley scenarios. If i know what is supposed to happen in the future and i change it how could that have been the future. It is a paradox.
ex: I have a premintion that i will be hit by a car on the way to school today. I know what day it is because i see the newspaper in my prem. Now if i "see" this is about to happen, what if i decide to stay home. Then i have changed the future, thus what i saw earlier could not have been the future because it never came to pass. Very complicated
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Ah FUTURE SENSE! Well future sense is very complex and complicated because there is more than one road. The theory is that there are many roads fanning out into the future. Many roads have the same future but different ways of stopping that "future". We as individuals choose one of those roads. Another problem with future sense is that we don't see all of the variables leading to that "future". We don't see all the random elements that occur that creates that certain future. We act on what we can see.
In the MINORITY REPORT the three in the pool don't always agree with some futures. But those that "can be prevented" the perpetrators are arrested and "incarcerated" for life. In the Matrix all of humanity is incarcerated for eternity, so to speak.
In THE MATRIX, the Architect told Neo what is going to happen. Zion is destroyed. But Neo is given a "choice" on the outcome of the destruction. Neo "chooses" which door he'd rather go through. He is not prevented. That is the difference between MATRIX and MINORITY REPORT.
Choices can be predetermined, but the consequences can not be seen. For example, I choose to drink a couple of beers and drive. That was my choice. On the way home I hit another car, killing the other driver and not even hurting me. I when making the choice didn't forsee the consequence, or felt it didn't relate to me. If the consequences are ignored then they can't be controlled. It leaves your hands. Neo knew the consequences that the Architect laid out to him, he choose the other. But just like my example what happens if one of the consequences doesn't happen, what happens if I don't hit anyone that night. My point is Neo ingnored the consequences of his choice, but what if one of the consequences doesn't happen. i.e. Zion isn't destroyed?
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
You have just proven my point in all of the threads. I want you to think about what you just said your two beliefs are not compatiable. You need to make a change.
You have been stating that everyones future is destined. They have no choice. Everything will happen the way it has been forseen by the oracle and arch. You state that neo cant change his fate by making a choice.
But just now you have agreed with my whole argument. You can change the future with choice. In fact it is impossible to know the future.
As i posted somewhere earlier the oracle and arch. can only see the diffrent paths that are open. Neither one of them can see the future. They can make an educated guess on what people might do. But they do not know.
Thus every choice or decsion is relevant. Even if it were loaded ( which i still say it wasn't, it was free) it would change the future. So i say the arch. had no idea what neo would do. He might have had a hunch, but there was and still is no definite way to know someones decisions.
I still have NO idea why some people confuse free will with being able to do absolutely whatever you want, ever. Free will is, in fact, the ability to choose between options as presented- the countless billions of options you have each second, but just because these options have limits does NOT mean you do not have free will! Such thinking can only be based on a huge misapprehension of what free will is.
Now, this is again going off-topic. Does anyone have anything meaningful to say on whether the Architect was lying or not?
__________________
"We've got maybe seconds before Darth Rosenberg grinds everybody into Jawa burgers and not one of you buds has the midi-chlorians to stop her!"
You are right, it is free choice, but When I say loaded, the architect and oracle know the different paths that are open, so they load the side they want Neo to chose. See, their knowledge of what could happen allows them to try and weigh on Neo.
Look at parents and kids, alot of times the will load things to get kids to do things. If you do this.... I will let you do this....
There is the free choice, but they make choosing the other side a lot less pleasurable.
Like the architect.... This door, save and start a new Zion, the other door Death of Zion and Trinity.
You see the architect was loading the choice to make Neo feel he had to choose the door to save Zion. Yes Neo didn't make that choice, Trinity didn't die, but that doesn't mean that other consequences couldn't come because of this.
__________________ "If you do a bad thing for a good reason, does that bad thing become a good thing? Or is it still a bad thing? And if so, how can it possibly be good to do it?
I think he was telling the truth. I see no reason for him to lie. In fact i don't even know if he would be able to seeing as he is a program. Computers don't lie.
His purpose was to present neo with a choice. For him to lie would have tainted the choice, which i believe would be against his purpose. For that reason i say he was telling the truth.
KMC Community Forums
Jun 4th, 2003 10:31 PM
And it isn't a choice at all because like you said so aptly... it's loaded. The Keymaker said that the doors have "explosives". Any decision like the ones our friends in the story have to make are dangerous ones regardless.
