KMC Forums

 
  REGISTER HERE TO JOIN IN! - It's easy and it's free!
Already a member? Log-in!
 
 
Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Reasons for modern era characters to be more powerful


Reasons for modern era characters to be more powerful
Started by: The Ellimist

Forum Jump:
Post New Thread    Post A Reply
Pages (9): « First ... « 2 3 [4] 5 6 » ... Last »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread
Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(Post on the prior page)

Also, to reinforce what AP was saying:

(please log in to view the image)


__________________

"The Emperor had three-hundred years to break this man . . . and he never succumbed?"

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:02 PM
Click here to Send Jaggarath a Private Message Find more posts by Jaggarath Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
MS Warehouse
Senior Member

Registered: May 2016
Location:


 

That library, the sith library on Krayis II, the pillaging of the sith worlds following the GSW, etc. So much more knowledge was lost than was "created", it's not even a question.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:04 PM
Click here to Send MS Warehouse a Private Message Find more posts by MS Warehouse Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

Plus Malachor V, which was basically the storehouse of knowledge for the original Sith Empire, was destroyed in the Mandalorian Wars.

Whatever was left could be found on Korriban, which was all but gone when Darth Bane came around.


__________________

"The Emperor had three-hundred years to break this man . . . and he never succumbed?"

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:05 PM
Click here to Send Jaggarath a Private Message Find more posts by Jaggarath Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
MS Warehouse
Senior Member

Registered: May 2016
Location:


 

Forgot about the libraries at Malachor V. The evidence is overwhelming.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:05 PM
Click here to Send MS Warehouse a Private Message Find more posts by MS Warehouse Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

So far, the confirmed holocrons in the possession of the post-Gravid Banite Sith are:

- Sorzus Syn's Holocron (contents unknown)
- ...

And then some allege Darth Bane's Holocron, but have yet to show a source.


__________________

"The Emperor had three-hundred years to break this man . . . and he never succumbed?"

Last edited by Jaggarath on Sep 5th, 2016 at 06:15 PM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:10 PM
Click here to Send Jaggarath a Private Message Find more posts by Jaggarath Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Quote they were all forgeries? And, again, a lot of the entries, scrolls, books, etc. were legitimate. Holocrons aren't the only way to store knowledge, especially for the Sith.

And yes, it's confirmed to be a true Sith Holocron in Legacy of the Jedi. Here's one quote of many:

Lorian turned back to him. "Yes, Dooku, I did access the Sith Holocron. I was curious. And what I saw chilled my blood and haunted my days for a long time. It haunts me still. And yet it is comforting somehow. Once you've seen true evil, you can be sure that you will never be able to fall that low."

Dooku also made note of its dark side nexus, etc.
I'm only talking about Holocrons, as for the source:
quote:
Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Atop a pedestal alongside the chair sat the holocrons Sidious had asked his apprentice to search out and retrieve from the Jedi archives room. Pyramidal in shape, as opposed to the geodesic Jedi version, the holocrons were repositories of recorded knowledge, accessible only to those who were highly evolved in the use of the Force. Arcane writing inscribed on the holocrons Vader had fetched told Sidious that they had been recorded by Sith during the era of Darth Bane, some one thousand standard years earlier. Sidious didn't have to imagine the content of the devices, because his own Master, Darth Plagueis, had once allowed him access to the actual holocrons. The ones stored in the Temple archives room were nothing more than clever forgeries-Sith disinformation of a sort.
And considering they were "clever forgeries" i.e. designed to appear like the real thing, and considering that Jedi can sense the dark side and presumably access these devices, we'd assume they'd be indistinguishable in those regards, good enough to fool even Master Yoda.

But more importantly the Banite Sith had all the real ones in their possession.


__________________

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:16 PM
Click here to Send Beniboybling a Private Message Find more posts by Beniboybling Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But more importantly the Banite Sith had all the real ones in their possession.

Please enlighten on what the contents of a few (so small in number that they could fit on a pedestal) Sith holocrons contained, then?


__________________

"The Emperor had three-hundred years to break this man . . . and he never succumbed?"

Last edited by Jaggarath on Sep 5th, 2016 at 06:19 PM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:16 PM
Click here to Send Jaggarath a Private Message Find more posts by Jaggarath Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Plus Malachor V, which was basically the storehouse of knowledge for the original Sith Empire, was destroyed in the Mandalorian Wars.

Whatever was left could be found on Korriban, which was all but gone when Darth Bane came around.
The storehouse? On what basis?


__________________

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:19 PM
Click here to Send Beniboybling a Private Message Find more posts by Beniboybling Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Please enlighten on what the contents of a few (so small in number that they could fit on a pedestal) Sith holocrons contained, then?
Information, I would imagine.


__________________

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:20 PM
Click here to Send Beniboybling a Private Message Find more posts by Beniboybling Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

(please log in to view the image)

Based on the above, I'm inclined to believe the Jedi then destroyed the real ones (as made clear in Battlefront II, where the Jedi began destroying the library and you had to prevent them from destroying everything, i.e. presumably what was on the pedestal). So yeah, no.


__________________

"The Emperor had three-hundred years to break this man . . . and he never succumbed?"

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:21 PM
Click here to Send Jaggarath a Private Message Find more posts by Jaggarath Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Jaggarath
DarthAnt66

Registered: Feb 2013
Location: USA


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The storehouse? On what basis?

A storehouse of information that stretches across an entire planet is obviously the storehouse. Nothing even compares.


__________________

"The Emperor had three-hundred years to break this man . . . and he never succumbed?"

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:23 PM
Click here to Send Jaggarath a Private Message Find more posts by Jaggarath Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Ziggystardust
Restricted

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: United Kingdom

Account Restricted


 

The Ancient Sith were the originators of whatever knowledge Bane and his Sith could get their hands on. Yet, through various events in the history of the Galaxy, a tremendous amount of said knowledge was lost and destroyed. If this isn't apparent enough for you, here are those holy scriptures reiterating what I just said:

"Locked within the recesses of that Sith Holocron - the only Sith Holocron, as far as anybody knows - are the forgotten histories and lore of the Sith, dating back a hundred thousand years and more"

- Odan-Urr on the Sith Holocron he discovered on the abandoned Sith ship during the Great Hyperspace War, The Essential Guide to the Force

"King Adas's holocron was stolen during the Jedi Purge, and it seems the remaining holocrons were destroyed before Palpatine or his agents could claim them"

- Tionne Solusar, The Essential Guide through the Force

"According to records, the Sith Lord might have gained greated knowledge of their subjects from an ancient Sith library temple on Krayiss II. Apparently, this library housed Holocrons and artifacts about the Sith species, but ruins on Krayiss II have yet to be identified as a library and its collections may have long turned to dust"

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force

"Perhabs the greatest loss during that period [The Great Hyperspace War] was Veeshas Tuwan an ancient Sith library on the Sith world Arkania."

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force

[...]

And of course we have Sidious hating the Jedi for laying waste to so many Sith artifacts while pointing out that Vaa doesn't...

"mention the destruction of the planet Malachor V and its Sith academy"

- Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide to the Force

Clearly the ancient Sith were mor knowledgable than the modern era's and not the other way round.


__________________

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:26 PM
Click here to Send Ziggystardust a Private Message Find more posts by Ziggystardust Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
(please log in to view the image)

Based on the above, I'm inclined to believe the Jedi then destroyed the real ones (as made clear in Battlefront II, where the Jedi began destroying the library and you had to prevent them from destroying everything, i.e. presumably what was on the pedestal). So yeah, no.
That's one reading, an alternative reading based on the fact that the only holocrons being in the Jedi's possession is false, is that this is written from the fallible perspective of said Order, who could very well have merely been convinced their holocrons were the real deal. And we only see them destroying their own Archives, not any Sith knowledge.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
A storehouse of information that stretches across an entire planet is obviously the storehouse. Nothing even compares.
You can't possibly claim that when you don't know how large the other storehouses were. erm

On the other hand what does this mean for the resurgent Sith Empire? Malachor is described as one of the many Sith strongholds abandoned at the end of the Great Hyperspace War, which includes Korriban, and as Ziggy pointed out the Jedi seemingly laid waste or otherwise raided what the left behind. So presumably there accumulated Sith knowledge would be just as lacking.


__________________

Last edited by Beniboybling on Sep 5th, 2016 at 06:37 PM

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:35 PM
Click here to Send Beniboybling a Private Message Find more posts by Beniboybling Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
The_Tempest
Senior Member

Registered: Sep 2012
Location: United States


 

There's no contradictions. The Sith Holocrons in the Jedi possession were forgeries according to Sidious, but they still were Sith Holocrons.

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:36 PM
Click here to Send The_Tempest a Private Message Find more posts by The_Tempest Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

Wait, none of the Jedi were ever allowed to actually check the holocrons?


__________________

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:37 PM
Click here to Send The Ellimist a Private Message Find more posts by The Ellimist Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
Beniboybling
Worst Member

Registered: Jul 2014
Location: United Kingdom


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The_Tempest
There's no contradictions. The Sith Holocrons in the Jedi possession were forgeries according to Sidious, but they still were Sith Holocrons.
That's true tbh, its even implied they possessed actual Sith knowledge.


__________________

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:41 PM
Click here to Send Beniboybling a Private Message Find more posts by Beniboybling Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
MS Warehouse
Senior Member

Registered: May 2016
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The Ancient Sith were the originators of whatever knowledge Bane and his Sith could get their hands on. Yet, through various events in the history of the Galaxy, a tremendous amount of said knowledge was lost and destroyed. If this isn't apparent enough for you, here are those holy scriptures reiterating what I just said:

"Locked within the recesses of that Sith Holocron - the only Sith Holocron, as far as anybody knows - are the forgotten histories and lore of the Sith, dating back a hundred thousand years and more"

- Odan-Urr on the Sith Holocron he discovered on the abandoned Sith ship during the Great Hyperspace War, The Essential Guide to the Force

"King Adas's holocron was stolen during the Jedi Purge, and it seems the remaining holocrons were destroyed before Palpatine or his agents could claim them"

- Tionne Solusar, The Essential Guide through the Force

"According to records, the Sith Lord might have gained greated knowledge of their subjects from an ancient Sith library temple on Krayiss II. Apparently, this library housed Holocrons and artifacts about the Sith species, but ruins on Krayiss II have yet to be identified as a library and its collections may have long turned to dust"

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force

"Perhabs the greatest loss during that period [The Great Hyperspace War] was Veeshas Tuwan an ancient Sith library on the Sith world Arkania."

- Seviss Vaa, The Essential Guide through the Force

[...]

And of course we have Sidious hating the Jedi for laying waste to so many Sith artifacts while pointing out that Vaa doesn't...

"mention the destruction of the planet Malachor V and its Sith academy"

- Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide to the Force

Clearly the ancient Sith were mor knowledgable than the modern era's and not the other way round.
thumb up

Old Post Sep 5th, 2016 06:46 PM
Click here to Send MS Warehouse a Private Message Find more posts by MS Warehouse Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah because the rest of those 1650 turn up nothing, and you know it.

Heck, bring on the last 25,000 years of the Jedi Order, and you can't come up with a top six list matching Luke/Yoda/Anakin/Mace/Galen/Kyp. That's like seventy years.



Or literally makes him more powerful via manipulating his own midichlorians. thumb up



No, but it suggests that we consider which one is superior; and the Jedi Archives are just more likely to have more information, given its longer stretch of time and whatnot.



You don't think any other sith would've figured out how to bust planets from across the galaxy if they could?



Nihilus was able to drain individuals on a planet, and Valkorion could sort of emulate a lite storm via prep and a nexus, but none could tear the surfaces off of worlds from across the galaxy.


Yes because let's just pretend that Revan, Ulic Qel-Droma, Exar Kun, Vandar, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Odan-Urr, Meetra Surik, Outlander, Barsen'thor, Satele Shan, Lucien Draay, Thon, Aryn Leneer, Wyellett, Tol-Braga, Nomi Sunrider and Jaric Kaedan aren't imptessive at all.

He does that after the shift, not prior to it.

Given the Jedi Archives have been seriously maintained since the Ruusan Reformations, I don't understand how 1,000 years > 1,000 years. Better yet, Odan-Urr had an entire 'chamber of antiquities', which was within the Great Library itself. This chamber was filled with Ancient Sith and Jedi artifacts and holocrons, so much that it had more knowledge than Exar Kun could ever possibly need.

Why are you pretending the Force Storm technique isn't originated by the ancient Sith and even documented by the Jedi in the Jedi Path?

Nihilus completely wrecked the surface of Katarr, and presumaboy the numerous other planets he destroyed, Valkorion does the same to Ziost. Neither of them are indicated to require any kind of rituals either.


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Old Post Sep 6th, 2016 12:14 AM
Click here to Send AncientPower a Private Message Find more posts by AncientPower Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
The Ellimist
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2016
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by AncientPower
Yes because let's just pretend that Revan, Ulic Qel-Droma, Exar Kun, Vandar, Vodo Siosk-Baas, Odan-Urr, Meetra Surik, Outlander, Barsen'thor, Satele Shan, Lucien Draay, Thon, Aryn Leneer, Wyellett, Tol-Braga, Nomi Sunrider and Jaric Kaedan aren't imptessive at all.


That group is less impressive than Luke/Yoda/Anakin/Mace/Kyp/Obi Wan/Jacen/Dooku/Kyle, and you're comparing the whole of previous galactic history to just seventy or so years!

quote:

He does that after the shift, not prior to it.


What, says that the ancient sith were stronger? No, he eventually says the opposite...

quote:

Given the Jedi Archives have been seriously maintained since the Ruusan Reformations, I don't understand how 1,000 years > 1,000 years. Better yet, Odan-Urr had an entire 'chamber of antiquities', which was within the Great Library itself. This chamber was filled with Ancient Sith and Jedi artifacts and holocrons, so much that it had more knowledge than Exar Kun could ever possibly need.


Because electronic archives are easier to maintain than libraries, and they draw upon some of the knowledge of Odan's time plus the knowledge afterwards, whereas Odan can draw upon his own time, but nothing from the future.

quote:

Why are you pretending the Force Storm technique isn't originated by the ancient Sith and even documented by the Jedi in the Jedi Path?


It may have been originated earlier, but never to the scale of Palpatine's.

quote:

Nihilus completely wrecked the surface of Katarr,


He used orbital bombardment, and besides, it wasn't to nearly the same degree or speed as Palpatine's storms, nor could he perform it from across the galaxy.

quote:

and presumaboy the numerous other planets he destroyed, Valkorion does the same to Ziost. Neither of them are indicated to require any kind of rituals either.


Valkorion may or may not have needed a ritual, but he did need a nexus, the energy of billions of inhabitants, and prep time.

Regardless, the only case you can make for the ancients is that they were better sorcerers; they were definitely weaker in generic mastery and saber ability.


__________________

Old Post Sep 6th, 2016 12:19 AM
Click here to Send The Ellimist a Private Message Find more posts by The Ellimist Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
AncientPower
The Chosen One

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force


 

The misinformation is astounding.

That is just 350-400 years. How exactly is that less impressive? They more than double them and they're all really powerful, if not extremely powerful.

quote:
If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate.
- Darth Plagueis


So the dark side was more prominent in the ancient Sith era, that or Exar Kun and Naga Sadow were more powerful. Which is interesting in and of itself, because Plagueis is clearly unaware of the ability of ancient Sith to remain after death as spirits, he even dismisses the possibility of ancient Sith spirits existing. But nah, Banite Sith know everything, clearly. Which leads to another correction:

quote:
If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.
- Darth Plagueis


Which is a very interesting statement:

quote:
The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun, it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin IV or elsewhere(Keep in mind that even Darth Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know about Sith powers.)
- The Jedi Academy Sourcebook


Isn't it?

Very strange orbital bombardment:

(please log in to view the image)

quote:
"Then her lies will mean the planet's destruction, he will destroy all of Telos. He will turn it to fire again and crush the planet beneath him. He will devour them all, murder them all."

"If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station, he will cleanse it of life. Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station, and the life of the planet, will sustain him a while longer."

―Visas Marr and Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)


All the inhabitants of Ziost afforded him, was the replenishment of his power.

quote:
However, he did gain power enough to flee the jungle moon and survive.
- Star Wars The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor: Codex Entry Vitiate


quote:
Now that he has found in Ziost a suitable target to replenish himself--now that he appears to grow more powerful by the hour--what now?
- Star Wars The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor Codex Entry Vitiate


__________________

Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Last edited by AncientPower on Sep 6th, 2016 at 01:14 AM

Old Post Sep 6th, 2016 01:00 AM
Click here to Send AncientPower a Private Message Find more posts by AncientPower Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote Quick Quote
All times are UTC. The time now is 11:14 AM.
Pages (9): « First ... « 2 3 [4] 5 6 » ... Last »   Last Thread   Next Thread

Email this Page
Subscribe to this Thread
   Post New Thread  Post A Reply

Forum Jump:
Search by user:
 

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is OFF
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON

Text-only version
 

< Contact Us - KillerMovies.com - Forum Archive - Forum Rules >


© Copyright 2000-2006, KillerMovies.com. All Rights Reserved.
Forum powered by: vBulletin, copyright ©2000-2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.