Originally posted by Dizzle
"You smell like retard!" is a personal favorite. Very sorry if I offended you. 😆
You'd have to try a lot harder than that, sweet thang. 😉
Originally posted by Dizzle
And yes you may. All things are Dizzle's children. Now go find some hot young broad to have my children with. 😉
Originally posted by Dizzle
Isn't this completely contradictory though? Basically, by saying that some feats are not usable because they are blatantly PIS,
Originally posted by Dizzle
you agreed with his "case by case basis" thing.
true.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Then, you said that ALL feats must be usable. If you try to pick a "middle ground", you epitomize the "I don't like it, it never happened" guy. Wolverine taking a nuke is obvious PIS. Wolverine getting KOed by bullets is obvious PIS. But Spiderman getting casually stabbed is not, though he dodges things which are hundreds of times faster than those claws?
actually it's again a matter of consistency...
look I've said it again and again... here:
Originally posted by jinzin
you want to use feats?.. then use all the consistent feats there are.. not just the one's you like..
Originally posted by jinzin
you either use feats (we'll obviously assume feats free of heavy PIS as we both agreed the nuke feat was a load of crap) as a standard of evidence and hence: must accept the consistent feats presented to you...
or you can use subjective feats, and your standard of evidence loses credibility...
there are things that are OBVIOUSLY PIS because there is NOTHING to support them... but there are also feats backed by consistency...
consistency: how thise minoote yet VASTLY important detail continues to elude you I have no idea...
look the reason why wolverine stabbing parker isn't.. is BCAUSE IT'S A CONSISTANT FEAT (wolverine hitting parker i mean) it's not something that's only happened once or twice but nearly every time they have a mutual level of hostility... spiderman CONSISTENTLY gets hit by human characters who possess great skill and wolverine's falls into that category.. even above it in many regards... even wolverine's dodges his fair share of bullets should he then be hit by spiderman in turn? well yeah.. cause spiderman's consistently hit him back...
Originally posted by jinzin
Your "stance" here was that if one feat is to be accepted, all feats are to be accepted, except for PIS. Which you must agree to, if it is to be considered PIS. That's extremely hypocritical, Melnorme is definitely right on this subject.
that's an incorrect take on the "stance" the stance is that if one is to use feats as a standard of evidence.. then one must accept consistant feats...
those of heavy (note I did say heavy pis since there's been such a movement towards the distortion of semantics.... like you're doing now..)
pis are feats to be excluded...
Originally posted by jinzin
Basically, you both stink heavily of retard and hypocrite. 🙂
i still fail to see how... you missed one of the most important parts of my argument.. misunderstood the argument.. and then deemed yourself fit to tell me what my argument was... maybe you would reconsider if you re-read it...
Originally posted by jinzin
Anyhoo... Comics are terribly inconsistant. Head to head encounters are really not the only way to compare two characters.
yes comics are inconsistent.. but wolverine vs. spiderman is not an incident in comics that suffers from inconsistency... so what?
Originally posted by jinzin
If they were, Firelord would indeed always lose to Spiderman,
Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine would always beat Lobo,
fan voted.. not a good analogy...
Originally posted by jinzincompany non canon crossover... not the same either...
and a hammer throw from Thor would have a relatively small effect on Superman.,
Originally posted by jinzin
The fact that the two topic characters of the thread actually met in a comic does not make those instances immune to PIS for one or both characters.
no it does not.. but that doesn't necessarily dictate that they suffered from pis either... as I've stated before...
When someone argues that they have seen evidence of something but that the evidence doesn't count because that character "shouldn't be able to do that" they need to re-think the premise of thier conclusion. A characters abilities are based on what he or she demonstrates he or she can do, not on what someone thought they could do at one time.
is spiderman's never been able to put logan down and logan can't say the same about spiderman after consistent and mutliple encounters.. well.....
Originally posted by jinzin
Spiderman still remains the faster and stronger, and the only one with a ranged weapon. He also remains strong enough that ripping off Wolverine's flesh wouldn't be too difficult. Wolverine's wrists get webbed, Wolverine gets shot in the face and subsequently buried in webs, or Spiderman tears out Wolverine's small intestine. Possibly more than once. Because is Logan really going to be in a position to defend if he's missing a small intestine?
all situational b.s. we've all gone over before... i mean honestly.. is spiderman? who's more likely to gut the other first? seriosuly now that was grasping...
Originally posted by Melnorme
Why are you having so much trouble spitting it out then? Why then, up to this very post, have you been unable to respond to that simple challenge: prove that I am being subjective.
I haven't had any trouble with such... even from a simple reply like this
Originally posted by jinzin
you want to use feats?.. then use all the consistent feats there are.. not just the one's you like..
maybe I gave you too much credit in assuming that you could on your own....
Originally posted by Melnorme
I have yet to see you use statistics. And I mean actual, formal statistics. I'd be quite interested in seeing you do this, actually. 😛
If by "statistics" you mean "that system of counting to 7 that Marvel slaps into a book once a year or so to charge money for", then you're correct. But I've shown why it's not a good system. Pay attention, next time.
now you're just rambling.. as if I was using statistic as the bulk of my argument... which isn't the case..
Originally posted by Melnorme
Well, looks like you've got it tied up. Ooops...except for Secret Wars. And MTU. Hey, that's 2 victories over Wolverine right there. The others were stalemates. So that's, what, 2-to-1? And, I hasten to add, that one example was a poorly written one, where his Spider-sense didn't even trigger, an example of PIS so that Spidey could have a gut-wound for the New Guy to heal up for him at the Daily Bugle, and a training session? .
spiderman gets head slammed into tree (comparible to secret wars as secret wars wasn't really a fight between the two nor was it a win for spidey.. at all... at least spiderman's life was endangered by wolvie in this example)
spiderman gets stabbed and is KOed
spiderman gets clocked in the face, kicked in the breadbasket and humiliated by logan's claws despite getting the jump on wolverine and despite throwing the first punch....on the rooftop...
spiderman gets flipkicked in the groin...
spiderman uses everything he's got while wolverine holds back.. they end in a "stalemate" where spiderman THINKS he can do what hulk couldn't and break logans neck while wolverine's about to pop his claws in spidey's head...
let's see what you've got.. secret wars... where spiderman hit wolverine away and wolverine got right back up.. no biggie..
mtu.. where spiderman webs wolverine in mid-conversation after
he's been blasted twice by an omega level mutant.. using walls (i.e. plot devices) to immobilize him...
lol.. the scores still 5 to 2 wolverine..... good job.. 😉
Originally posted by Melnorme
No, it is not, despite your impressive use of ALL CAPS. But there we go...the "black or white" fallacy! Either I agree with Jinzin and blindly accept his demonstrably false account of these characters' histories, or I'm being biased in favor of Spider-Man! Boy, if I had a dollar for every time I've heard that today.Fortunately, I can think for myself. I've given analysis of these encounters ad nauseum. Hell, I've even put up graphical presentations of the subject so it would be fun and easy to see my points. But, as you can see, all this must be discarded, despite the sound logic and consistant reasoning behind them, because there can be no possible objective reason to disagree with Jinzin!
You know, I thought it was actually a little bit silly to liken the pro-Wolverine camp to a group of religious fanatics. But now, I can see that this is a most appropriate comparison.
Oh, and for those keeping score, this is at least the third time Jinzin's failed to show how I'm being subjective. But there is hope...he put in a serious effort this time.
you've presented nothing more than a 'nu-uh' argument here...backed with insults... "wow you? insulting somebody? go on! no really!"... I'm not really impressed..
Originally posted by jinzin
actually it's again a matter of consistency...look I've said it again and again... here:
there are things that are OBVIOUSLY PIS because there is NOTHING to support them... but there are also feats backed by consistency...
consistency: how thise minoote yet VASTLY important detail continues to elude you I have no idea...
As I said, what IS blatantly PIS? Spiderman not using one of his primary weapons? Spiderman letting Wolverine hit him? Spiderman's Spider sense not working, or Spiderman completely ignoring it, even when there is no reason for him to do so? That's what I meant. What's "obviously" PIS to you is not the same as what is to everyone else. Why is what YOU think is PIS the only things that are allowed to be called PIS? Therin lies the hypocrasy, because your "stance" revolves around things which you think everyone will agree on. Hell, W8888 probably doesn't agree that Wolverine can't take a nuke, yet is it still PIS because you think so?
look the reason why wolverine stabbing parker isn't.. is BCAUSE IT'S A CONSISTANT FEAT (wolverine hitting parker i mean) it's not something that's only happened once or twice but nearly every time they have a mutual level of hostility... spiderman CONSISTENTLY gets hit by human characters who possess great skill and wolverine's falls into that category.. even above it in many regards... even wolverine's dodges his fair share of bullets should he then be hit by spiderman in turn? well yeah.. cause spiderman's consistently hit him back...
Well, consistant feat. Spiderman KOes him. You're logic is flawed. Doc Ock's tentacles surpass Wolverine in EVERY possible area when it comes to hitting an opponent. Speed, check. Accuracy, check. Angles of attack, check. Spiderman dodges and defeats Ock CONSISTANTLY. High end feats vs. low end feats. Just because it happened doesn't make it immune to PIS. Bloodlust means we take people at the tops of their games, not solely by how they performed against one another in the past.
that's an incorrect take on the "stance" the stance is that if one is to use feats as a standard of evidence.. then one must accept consistant feats...
those of heavy (note I did say heavy pis since there's been such a movement towards the distortion of semantics.... like you're doing now..)
pis are feats to be excluded...
What are consistant feats? Wolverine hits Spiderman, yet Spiderman dodges Ock's tentacles. One is a high end feat, one is not. Wovlerine takes Hulk shots, yet is KOed by an elk. One is a high end feat, one is not. I agree with your stance, but do not agree with any of the parts of it that are dependant on your own personal opinion. Mainly your definition of PIS, and what "consistancy" really means. It's kind of like Communism. Good in theory, but doesn't all go as planned when you try to make it work.
i still fail to see how... you missed one of the most important parts of my argument.. misunderstood the argument.. and then deemed yourself fit to tell me what my argument was... maybe you would reconsider if you re-read it...
I understood it extremely well. You said that all "consistant" feats must be accepted, unless they are "obviously PIS". If it's in quotes, it's something that you decided to define yourself. That's the flaw: your stance is tainted by bias toward one side. What you want to be labeled as "consistant" helps Wolverine, therefore it "is". Your stance is hypocritical.
yes comics are inconsistent.. but wolverine vs. spiderman is not an incident in comics that suffers from inconsistency... so what?
However, Spiderman's performance in the Wolverine vs. Spiderman matchups has been sub par. Therefore, it's not a good feat to go by. Both characters are to be used to potential, it's in the forum rules.
not accurate or a fair comparison considering the fact that spiderman had loads of circumstances, intentional cis on firelords behalf, and plot devices comin out the ass for that win.. if he had those same circumstances going for him every time.. then yeah he would win every time..
But it happened. So far, Spiderman has won 100% of his fights against Firelord. That makes it consistant, right?
fan voted.. not a good analogy...company non canon crossover... not the same either...
Of course they're bad examples. But both of them are the only head to head confrontations of either pair, so it's the only way to judge how a fight would turn out. RIGHT? (wrong! Doesn't factor in PIS or circumstances. Which is WHAT MY POINT WAS. I was illustrating flaws in your arguments, not using serious examples...)
no it does not.. but that doesn't necessarily dictate that they suffered from pis either... as I've stated before...
When someone argues that they have seen evidence of something but that the evidence doesn't count because that character "shouldn't be able to do that" they need to re-think the premise of thier conclusion. A characters abilities are based on what he or she demonstrates he or she can do, not on what someone thought they could do at one time.
That doesn't work in reverse though. Spiderman has shown himself very capable of dodging things that surpass Logan in every category when it comes to tagging people. So why do you simply refuse to even entertain the notion that Spiderman wasn't fighting to his fullest? Wolverine has won most of their fights, but ALL of them involve a lot of PIS. You disagree though, so even though there's PIS, it's consistant. Right?
is spiderman's never been able to put logan down and logan can't say the same about spiderman after consistent and mutliple encounters.. well.....
Spiderman has never fought especially intelligently against Logan either. Of all the times he actually used his webs, Logan has been incapacitated twice, and magically tore through them once. PIS, for the most part.
situational b.s. we've all gone over before... i mean honestly.. is spiderman? who's more likely to gut the other first? seriosuly now that was grasping...
What? I was listing methods by which Spiderman could win. I never said "at the start of the fight" or "instantly". They are simply ways in which the fight COULD end, after what will likely be a long, drawn out battle. All of them could result from a variety of situations.
Spiderman's only hope against Wolverine in h2h would be ripping his guts out. He is faster, he is strong enough to do so, wihtout plot devices or anything. Bloodlust is on. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to think to go for the unprotected spot on an opponent... Spiderman is both smart enough and easily capable of doing it. The only thing that would hold him back is morals, which are conveniently stripped for this fight.
Originally posted by Dizzle
As I said, what IS blatantly PIS? Spiderman not using one of his primary weapons? Spiderman letting Wolverine hit him? Spiderman's Spider sense not working, or Spiderman completely ignoring it, even when there is no reason for him to do so? That's what I meant. What's "obviously" PIS to you is not the same as what is to everyone else. Why is what YOU think is PIS the only things that are allowed to be called PIS? Therin lies the hypocrasy, because your "stance" revolves around things which you think everyone will agree on. Hell, W8888 probably doesn't agree that Wolverine can't take a nuke, yet is it still PIS because you think so?
it's pis because it's clearly beyond his capabilities and has no consistent backing in feats nor stats..
your examples all neglect the consistency of their meetings...
spiderman HAS used his webbing on wolverine... webbings been proven innefective against a fighting wolverine... inneffectective any time wolverine wants out... spiderman's used webbing on 4 of their 6 enounters... it doesn't work on wolvie's claws..
spidey letting wolverine hit him was an act of desperation.. he was out of options... why would that be deemed pis?
spiderman's spider sense has worked in all their encounters..
spiderman's spider sense hasn't been mentioned to be ignored ANYWHERE.. that's pure speculation....
I'm not saying I'm an authority here.. but if somone's going to claim that pis exists then one has to have a standard for what is and isn't pis.. that much i know we can agree to... so then would you also not agree that wolverine taking a nuke is an extreme compared to your (albiet incorrect) examples?
Originally posted by Dizzle
My argument is that Wolverine hitting Spiderman is a low end feat for Spiderman. It's happened what, 4 times? 1) KOed by bullets. 2) KOed by DD. 3) KOed by elk. 4) KOed by bullets.
one: wolverine has hit spiderman or gotten his hands on him on 8 occasions actually...
two: wolverine has consistently hit or touched spiderman in their encounters... secret wars is the only exception and incidently enough not only the first time wolverine dealt with peter but an occasion where logan admits to not wanting to hurt parker...
three: your examples are riddled with plot devices or circumstances that allowed for such a thing to take place.. wolverine vs. bullets was already explained to you... wolverine vs. dd wasn't a knockout.. so now you've got one measily example (elk).. and it doesn't even have anything to do with spiderman....
Originally posted by Dizzle
Well, consistant feat. Spiderman KOes him. You're logic is flawed..
no your examples are... bullets are not spiderman.. elk is not spiderman.. dd is not spiderman.. and the same circumstances that led to your exmples and how they took place isn't given to spiderman..
Originally posted by Dizzle
Doc Ock's tentacles surpass Wolverine in EVERY possible area when it comes to hitting an opponent. Speed
actually cod ocs been "stated" at having lesser speeds than wolverine... as was evident in their fight when wolverine took over as part of the ff for a while...
Originally posted by Dizzle
Accuracy,
doc ock blocks bullets while wolverine cuts them in half they would both appear to be very accurate...
Originally posted by Dizzle
Angles of attack, check.
that one you get...
Originally posted by Dizzle
Spiderman dodges and defeats Ock CONSISTANTLY. .
actually I've read a number of spiderman comics.. spiderman wins many of his fights with doc ock via plot device.. he is consistently hit by those tenticals or wrapped up in them... it's a misconception that he does this consistently because everyone takes into account the end result rather than how the end result was attained... it's an easy mistake to make..
however.. still wolverine defeated doc ock... but what does that prove? nothing? why? cause dock ock IS NOT SPIDERMAN... spiderman has different attributes that help him in fights that wouldn't help dock ock right? same thing applies to wolverine.. this is exactly what I mean when I say it's not about JUST who's stronger and faster... not when these characters are so much more than one demensional.. that is.. they have so many attributes and abilities that it's hard to say the strongest and fastest win every time.. wolverine vs. spiderman is a perfect example of why...
Originally posted by Dizzle
High end feats vs. low end feats. Just because it happened doesn't make it immune to PIS. .
and just because it happened and people had problems with it doesn't dictate that it was induced by PIS...
Originally posted by Dizzle
Bloodlust means we take people at the tops of their games, not solely by how they performed against one another in the past..
Originally posted by Dizzle
What are consistant feats? Wolverine hits Spiderman, yet Spiderman dodges Ock's tentacles. One is a high end feat, one is not...
not accurate though.. like I just said.. it's not that simple when dealing with characters that have more than one demension worth discussing.. does dock ock have wolverine's enhanced senses? no.. how about his ability to come up with advanced battle strategies capable of beating 4 super computers at chess and at once in the time frame of a few seconds? maybe... does he have wolverine's fighting ability? damage soak? see it's more complicated than that alone...
Originally posted by Dizzle
Wovlerine takes Hulk shots, yet is KOed by an elk. One is a high end feat, one is not. ...
see this is where consistency really counts though.... strength is a factor that is one demensional... which is why the more consistant feat is more valid to use. on the other hand, wolverine got KOed by an elk once.. and that's fine.. but it only happened once... spiderman can't say the same for getting hit by wolverine....
and that's the funny thing.. you seem to think that the use of one character vs. character fight isn't a good place to draw examples from but you're using one right now with doc ock... you're displaying yourself to be a hypocrite and you didn't even realize it... you're so quick to give credit to spiderman that you forgot: going by your own standards we should discard any loss ocks ever had against spidey or any time that spidey has dodged his tenticals etc etc... thus spidey's feats over dock ock aren't acceptable as evidence... but you still used them to prove a point...
now things ARE getting completely contradictory.. by your own standards of course (of which I don't agree with.. so I need not worry about the contradictory nature of it.. but I did find it interesting..)...
Originally posted by Dizzle
I understood it extremely well. You said that all "consistant" feats must be accepted, unless they are "obviously PIS". If it's in quotes, it's something that you decided to define yourself. That's the flaw: your stance is tainted by bias toward one side. What you want to be labeled as "consistant" helps Wolverine, therefore it "is". Your stance is hypocritical.
absolutely not.. the only reason I may appear partial in this thread is because I'm backing the consistent evidence.. unfortunately that evidence IS in wolverine's favor.. if it wasn't I wouldn't be in support of wolverine... just as I had to change my opinion on the matter of daredevil vs. wolverine two days ago...
Originally posted by Dizzle
However, Spiderman's performance in the Wolverine vs. Spiderman matchups has been sub par. Therefore, it's not a good feat to go by.
that in and of itself is an opinionated statment.. which has evidence that goes against it considering the "everything I've got statment"
they're subpar because spiderman didn't win... that's not objective...
Originally posted by Dizzle
But it happened. So far, Spiderman has won 100% of his fights against Firelord. That makes it consistant, right?
I'm not arguing that it happened.. nor am I arguing that it's 100% consistent.. because it is...
but you have to realize that spiderman had blatent plot devices and circumstances in his favor helping him to win.. and without them he would not have one.. wolverine has not been given such plot devices etc etc vs. spiderman however and that's why your comparison isn't an accurate one...
Originally posted by Dizzle
Of course they're bad examples. But both of them are the only head to head confrontations of either pair, so it's the only way to judge how a fight would turn out. RIGHT? (wrong! Doesn't factor in PIS or circumstances. Which is WHAT MY POINT WAS. I was illustrating flaws in your arguments, not using serious examples...)
if my argument were flawed as you claim I would be using cross company non-canon crossovers to support it.. I haven't.. and thus the flaw that you THINK you found in my argument can't stand on it's own...
canon deviates from non-canon as canon events become part of the character's repsective history.. this is why the consistency of the wolverine/spiderman showings is so important...
Originally posted by Dizzleyeah I know.. that's the point...
That doesn't work in reverse though.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Spiderman has shown himself very capable of dodging things that surpass Logan in every category when it comes to tagging people.
Originally posted by Dizzle
So why do you simply refuse to even entertain the notion that Spiderman wasn't fighting to his fullest?
Originally posted by Dizzle
Wolverine has won most of their fights, but ALL of them involve a lot of PIS. You disagree though, so even though there's PIS, it's consistant. Right?
no.. Id have to agree to an abundance of pis in spiderman's favor for your point to be a correct one.. I don't....
Originally posted by Dizzlehe shredded through them actually.. between spidey and venom webbing's been used on wolverine 5 or 6 times.. it however has worked none of those times.. unless of course you count mk spidey/wolverine 4part mini... which wasn't even a vs. scenario...
Spiderman has never fought especially intelligently against Logan either. Of all the times he actually used his webs, Logan has been incapacitated twice, and magically tore through them once. PIS, for the most part.
Originally posted by Dizzle
Spiderman's only hope against Wolverine in h2h would be ripping his guts out. He is faster, he is strong enough to do so, wihtout plot devices or anything. Bloodlust is on. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to think to go for the unprotected spot on an opponent... Spiderman is both smart enough and easily capable of doing it. The only thing that would hold him back is morals, which are conveniently stripped for this fight.
this is funny.. i mean aside from the fact that spiderman as a hard enough time not getting punched by logan in h2h.... cyber and sabretooth are on spiderman's level in terms of physiology... hell they're even better fighters... do they beat logan easily by gutting him? no...
do you haven any direct comparison to even help make that claim? no...
*Sigh* still there be doubters out there.... Thee should believe all... for there be nothing that wolverine can not accomplish when he puts hisMind claws too it...
"and moses asked the lord where they should go next... And the lord did sayth "through the sea" and when moses pointed out that not all of them can hold there breath for 3 days like he could... Wolveine didth decendeth.... And with his blades of sixth he struck into the land..... And thus there was a mighty crash.... And austrila was seperated from canada..."
For wolverine events where he is shown in a bad light are PIS.... they are only there so that the story goes somewhere... For the lord works in strange ways... If wolverine wooped spiderman straight of he wouldn't learn his lesson that he is infact inferior to wolverine...
"For wolverine shined with a light that was clearly not of this world...."
Originally posted by jinzin
I haven't had any trouble with such... even from a simple reply like thisit should have been easy to figure out...
maybe I gave you too much credit in assuming that you could on your own....
Originally posted by jinzin
now you're just rambling.. as if I was using statistic as the bulk of my argument... which isn't the case..
Originally posted by jinzin
spiderman gets head slammed into tree (comparible to secret wars as secret wars wasn't really a fight between the two nor was it a win for spidey.. at all... at least spiderman's life was endangered by wolvie in this example)
Originally posted by jinzin
spiderman gets stabbed and is KOed
Originally posted by jinzin
spiderman gets clocked in the face, kicked in the breadbasket and humiliated by logan's claws despite getting the jump on wolverine and despite throwing the first punch....on the rooftop...
Originally posted by jinzin
spiderman gets flipkicked in the groin...
Originally posted by jinzin
spiderman uses everything he's got while wolverine holds back.. they end in a "stalemate" where spiderman THINKS he can do what hulk couldn't and break logans neck while wolverine's about to pop his claws in spidey's head...
Originally posted by jinzin
let's see what you've got.. secret wars... where spiderman hit wolverine away and wolverine got right back up.. no biggie..
Originally posted by jinzin
mtu.. where spiderman webs wolverine in mid-conversation after
he's been blasted twice by an omega level mutant.. using walls (i.e. plot devices) to immobilize him...
So, again so that you don't get lost again. The count is 2-to-1. Spider-Man wins!
Oh, and next time, please try to show how I'm being subjective. I'm still waiting, and you just look worse and worse as you dodge with every post.
are u a ****ing reatard. first off ur using a non fight as a win for spiderman they were clearly ****ign talken u are a ****ign dumbass. hell even the other spiderman fans admitt it was a non fight.
fights won 1 wolverine 0 spiderman
fights tied 2 though one of the fights wolverine clearly was winning
Originally posted by wolverine8888
are u a ****ing reatard. first off ur using a non fight as a win for spiderman they were clearly ****ign talken u are a ****ign dumbass. hell even the other spiderman fans admitt it was a non fight.
fights won 1 wolverine 0 spiderman
fights tied 2 though one of the fights wolverine clearly was winning
Just because Spider-Man rocked Wolverine in 4 panels, it may seem like a non-fight, but it was not.
And they were done talking. Spider-Man was just snarking off, as he always does. I own the issue.