Wolverine VS Cyclops

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This is assuming that the concussive force has the mass equivalency of a brick and you shouldn't assume that. Radio waves go at light speed and they don't hit like a brick.
This is 100% correct. Cyclops respect thread has several scans of one beam instantaneously reflecting off a myriad of panels like a beam of light.

Besides, why is it so incredulous to reconcile Cyclops' beam speed with people dodging it? I already explained how easy it is to dodge Cyclops' beams. Why is this even an issue anymore? If you want me to repeat it, imagine if you had a flashlight taped to your head and it is shining it's beam of light. Now picture me at 20 feet away running around. You'd be able to keep the flashlight beam on me pretty well. Now imagine me 2-3 feet away from you ducking side to side, you're gonna have a ***** of a time training that beam of light to stay on my body. Cyclop's light-speed beams is easily reconciliable with people dodging Cyclops, even as depicted in 'Wolverine: Origins.'

Not the same. Cyclops only has to see you to hit you with your light. If you are within his line of sight, he can hit you.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This is assuming that the concussive force has the mass equivalency of a brick and you shouldn't assume that. Radio waves go at light speed and they don't hit like a brick.
This is 100% correct. Cyclops respect thread has several scans of one beam instantaneously reflecting off a myriad of panels like a beam of light.

Besides, why is it so incredulous to reconcile Cyclops' beam speed with people dodging it? I already explained how easy it is to dodge Cyclops' beams. Why is this even an issue anymore? If you want me to repeat it, imagine if you had a flashlight taped to your head and it is shining it's beam of light. Now picture me at 20 feet away running around. You'd be able to keep the flashlight beam on me pretty well. Now imagine me 2-3 feet away from you ducking side to side, you're gonna have a ***** of a time training that beam of light to stay on my body. Cyclop's light-speed beams is easily reconciliable with people dodging Cyclops, even as depicted in 'Wolverine: Origins.'

You missed the entire point, its concussive blast it creates a force of impact I used the brick as an example. The blast would be vastly more durable than a brick, which hurts your cause even further as a beam going lightspeed no matter what the durability would obliterate everything it came into contact with.

Actually it’s not, Guardian’s concussive blasts reflect, refract and their not going light speed. Hardly at all.

Because you people keep claiming its light speed, if that were the case the people who continually dodge it…with ease might you kind of doesn’t strength the point it goes light speed. Look at the Quicksilver scan even posted here, he was 5 feet away from him and dodged it. At that time QS could only go mach 1 at best. Once again show me any example of how it is light speed as people rambling with no evidence is getting on my nerves. Dodging a bullet is one thing, now dodging lightspeed? Hardly even a comparison.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Was is clearly stated anywhere in AOA that Wolvie's adamantium bonding process was different from his "mainstream" counterpart? Specifically stated?

Originally posted by rotiart
The only difference between either universe is that xavier wasn't in it...

um... yah... cyke still developed the same.

Wolverine still developed the same...

Cyke makes wolvies hand go bye bye..

you make up excuses. adamantium is still adamantium. cyke is still cyke....

excuses excuses...

now if you wanna go with the smvsfl excuse.. that he's never done a feat of that caliber apparently before... and hasn't since...THAT excuse i could handle... but ... otherwise...

excuses.. excuses....

Originally posted by King_Mungi
You missed the entire point, its concussive blast it creates a force of impact I used the brick as an example. The blast would be vastly more durable than a brick, which hurts your cause even further as a beam going lightspeed no matter what the durability would obliterate everything it came into contact with.

Actually it’s not, Guardian’s concussive blasts reflect, refract and their not going light speed. Hardly at all.

Because you people keep claiming its light speed, if that were the case the people who continually dodge it…with ease might you kind of doesn’t strength the point it goes light speed. Look at the Quicksilver scan even posted here, he was 5 feet away from him and dodged it. At that time QS could only go mach 1 at best. Once again show me any example of how it is light speed as people rambling with no evidence is getting on my nerves. Dodging a bullet is one thing, now dodging lightspeed? Hardly even a comparison.

You're frustration is mutually shared by me in other threads, trust me. But your misrepresentation and continuing ignorance of my analogies is far worse. I can't continue to repeat my explanation of how a person can easily dodge a beam that goes at light speed without super speed. I've repeated it three times already. Your continual focus on the issue of the beam's speed as opposed to the target opponent's speed is absolutely fallacious. Do you really think DD dodges bullets because he is indeed faster than them? Give me a break.

Can you, or can you not possibly dodge the beam of light that is emitted from a flashlight taped to my head? Yes or no. Simple question. The fact that you can dodge the beam of light does not disprove the fact that the beam of light travels at light speed. Cyclops targetting ability is limited by his visor. Superman can look out the side of his eyes and simply look at where he wants to shoot without any restraints. Cyclops must point the visor the right way, which means he has to turn his head the right way, just as I must point the flashlight in the right direction since its stuck to my head.

The rendering of Cyclops' beams in comic art is very easily interpreted. Nearly everybody agrees on this point, except you. And you take exception to this fact from the sole fact that people can dodge them. Yet I just proved to you through and though, how the dodging of his optic blasts is not dispositive of light speed.

Instead of requiring proof that the blasts go at light speed, I think that because of the very simple and absolute refutation of your premise that "dodging light speed is impossible, therefore it must not be lightspeed," the burden of proof is now upon you to refute a widely accepted premise of Cyclops' character. Having disproved your one premise, robs you of any proof to doubt the speed of Cyclops optic blasts.

RE: The Quicksilver scan. I already told you that being closer to Cyclops makes it easier to dodge the focus of his optic blasts, and such a scan directly supports my explanation of how Cyclops can indeed miss. For you to insert some intention of Quicksilver's that he dodged the speed of the beam itself, instead of the direction it was being fired at, assumes too much.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The blast "CAN" be more durable than a brick. It is not necessarily more durable than a brick. The strength and concussive force of his optic blast is by virtue of the concentration of the particles (whether supercharged atoms, or special photons) at any given time during the stream. He can adjust it, but that does not necessarily relate to speed. Because I can shoot a highly charged laser, with a thousand times more power and photons and it will still go at light speed, the same as a pen laser's beam would travel.

You're frustration is mutually shared by me in other threads, trust me. But your misrepresentation and continuing ignorance of my analogies is far worse. I can't continue to repeat my explanation of how a person can easily dodge a beam that goes at light speed without super speed. I've repeated it three times already. Your continual focus on the issue of the beam's speed as opposed to the target opponent's speed is absolutely fallacious. Do you really think DD dodges bullets because he is indeed faster than them? Give me a break.

Can you, or can you not possibly dodge the beam of light that is emitted from a flashlight taped to my head? Yes or no. Simple question. The fact that you can dodge the beam of light does not disprove the fact that the beam of light travels at light speed. Cyclops targetting ability is limited by his visor. Superman can look out the side of his eyes and simply look at where he wants to shoot without any restraints. Cyclops must point the visor the right way, which means he has to turn his head the right way, just as I must point the flashlight in the right direction since its stuck to my head.

The rendering of Cyclops' beams in comic art is very easily interpreted. Nearly everybody agrees on this point, except you. And you take exception to this fact from the sole fact that people can dodge them. Yet I just proved to you through and though, how the dodging of his optic blasts is not dispositive of light speed.

Flash light taped to head is nothing like looking through a visor. If you are in his line of sight when he hits that button, the beam hits you.

With a flashlight taped to your head, you not only look stupid, but the flashlight doesn't necessarily point where your EYES are looking.

Visor =/= flashlight.

Originally posted by #1101
Flash light taped to head is nothing like looking through a visor. If you are in his line of sight when he hits that button, the beam hits you.
[b]
With a flashlight taped to your head, you not only look stupid, but the flashlight doesn't necessarily point where your EYES are looking.

Visor =/= flashlight. [/B]

LOL 🤣

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yet he did, so how does that prove it's lightspeed?

* i never said it was lightspeed... i was just comparing the speed of Pietro and Logan... Pietro BARELY dodged Cyke's blasts, and Pietro's NOT a slacker... Pietro commented in his mind that only his speed saved him from the blasts... tell me, is Logan even equalled Pietro in terms of speed?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
if anything it actually hurt your case since he did it.

* Pietro barely dodging Cyke's blasts is an impressive feat, not hurting my case a bit... the argument was: is Logan as quick as Pietro to dodge Cyke's blasts? you tell me...

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Also others have dodged his blasts with relative ease.

* if it's a speedster, there's no question... if it's not, it's bullcrap...

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Maybe you should read the whole comic as Cyclops tagged Northstar when he wasn't even fighting him. Northstar took out Storm, so Cyclops tagged him.

* Northstar was using his speed as he was taking out Storm, and Cyke tagged him...

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Tag Northstar again?...wow your off, before Cyclops tagged Northstar, he kept pounding on Scott even Cyclops still felt the punch afterwards. That was Northstar's first apperances, if you think he could actually tag him again you would be wrong and I suggest you go to the Aurora/Northstar respect thread

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=423434&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

* while i have no evidence whatsoever that Cyke tagged Northstar again, i believe Cyke has the potential to do so... Cyke's blasts travel very fast and Cyke's uncanny ability of "spacial awareness"...

* anyways, the match is not about speedsters, it's about Cyke and Logan... my argument still stands that since Pietro barely dodged Cyke's blasts only because of his speed, it is impossible for Logan to pull a stunt like that... 😉

Originally posted by capt it up
ya just like what if wolverine was war and wolverine killed every major villiain him self. So if you wish to try and count aoa as cannon you better beggin to count what if as cannon

Thats nice. but aoa is in continuity....

otherwise you wouldn't have characters like nate grey, holocaust, and dark beast existing in current 616 timeline...

You're applying the forum rules for non-canon sources... so lets see what it says:

Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.
As well, instances of PIS (plot induce stupidity - see below) and SvFL (Spiderman vs. Firelord - see below) are generally removed from consideration in standard versus debates.

A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

Most What If's aren't usable... however... dark beast... a creation from AoA was rewritten to have had a creation in the morlocks of 616 continuity... the sugar man, also a creation of AoA came to 616 and helped create the island of Genosha as we knew it by helping them create, or giving them, mutant enslaving technology...

Now generally What If's aren't allowed because of things that are done out of character with the 616... but i'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting cyclops is of the same powerlevel as 616... just as wolverine was... because if you look at the origins of those characters in AoA, its exactly the same as 616, the only differences being the end result character...

What If's aren't generally allowed because the string of events needed to create the end result, ie wolverine beating all other heroes... is absurd, as it requires immense CIS and PIS on the heroes parts... however this isn't an issue of CIS... its a measure of the powerlevel of cyclops blasts vs. Adamantium, in this case wolverines hand. which he clearly destroyed in full.

Originally posted by #1101
Flash light taped to head is nothing like looking through a visor. If you are in his line of sight when he hits that button, the beam hits you.

With a flashlight taped to your head, you not only look stupid, but the flashlight doesn't necessarily point where your EYES are looking.

Visor =/= flashlight.

I've always been under the impression that cyclop's power came from his iris or pupil and not the sclera (the white part of the eye) I always figured that where he looks is where the beams go, and that he doesn't necessarily have to tilt his head exactly to get the beams to aim at angles or whatnot. As I've seen several instances where the beam isn't exactly straight from his head... but that could be a mistake in artist's rendering or artistic license...

From wiki:
In Civil War: X-Men #4, while trying to blast through a reinforced door, Cyclops powers up Bishop, and Iron Man measures the power at nearly two gigawatts. Two gigawatts is the equivalent to the output of a large nuclear reactor.

thats civil war... even before the supposed emma frost mental tampering that said that cyclops has never used his full potential...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The blast "CAN" be more durable than a brick. It is not necessarily more durable than a brick. The strength and concussive force of his optic blast is by virtue of the concentration of the particles (whether supercharged atoms, or special photons) at any given time during the stream. He can adjust it, but that does not necessarily relate to speed. Because I can shoot a highly charged laser, with a thousand times more power and photons and it will still go at light speed, the same as a pen laser's beam would travel.

You're frustration is mutually shared by me in other threads, trust me. But your misrepresentation and continuing ignorance of my analogies is far worse. I can't continue to repeat my explanation of how a person can easily dodge a beam that goes at light speed without super speed. I've repeated it three times already. Your continual focus on the issue of the beam's speed as opposed to the target opponent's speed is absolutely fallacious. Do you really think DD dodges bullets because he is indeed faster than them? Give me a break.

Can you, or can you not possibly dodge the beam of light that is emitted from a flashlight taped to my head? Yes or no. Simple question. The fact that you can dodge the beam of light does not disprove the fact that the beam of light travels at light speed. Cyclops targetting ability is limited by his visor. Superman can look out the side of his eyes and simply look at where he wants to shoot without any restraints. Cyclops must point the visor the right way, which means he has to turn his head the right way, just as I must point the flashlight in the right direction since its stuck to my head.

The rendering of Cyclops' beams in comic art is very easily interpreted. Nearly everybody agrees on this point, except you. And you take exception to this fact from the sole fact that people can dodge them. Yet I just proved to you through and though, how the dodging of his optic blasts is not dispositive of light speed.

Instead of requiring proof that the blasts go at light speed, I think that because of the very simple and absolute refutation of your premise that "dodging light speed is impossible, therefore it must not be lightspeed," the burden of proof is now upon you to refute a widely accepted premise of Cyclops' character. Having disproved your one premise, robs you of any proof to doubt the speed of Cyclops optic blasts.

RE: The Quicksilver scan. I already told you that being closer to Cyclops makes it easier to dodge the focus of his optic blasts, and such a scan directly supports my explanation of how Cyclops can indeed miss. For you to insert some intention of Quicksilver's that he dodged the speed of the beam itself, instead of the direction it was being fired at, assumes too much.

What the hell are you talking about? I didn't even read this, once again show me PROOF it goes lightspeed. No once again the burden of proof is on you, not me to provide evidence. So basically you have none and trying to spell off long winded paragraphs with zero facts.

RE: Actually that;s wrong, it would be harder as you have least time to dodge and react as your in the focal point. Yet even from distances people have continually dodged Cyclops blasts. QS was directly in the line of fire

Originally posted by peejayd
* i never said it was lightspeed... i was just comparing the speed of Pietro and Logan... Pietro BARELY dodged Cyke's blasts, and Pietro's NOT a slacker... Pietro commented in his mind that only his speed saved him from the blasts... tell me, is Logan even equalled Pietro in terms of speed?

* Northstar was using his speed as he was taking out Storm, and Cyke tagged him...

while i have no evidence whatsoever that Cyke tagged Northstar again, i believe Cyke has the potential to do so... Cyke's blasts travel very fast and Cyke's uncanny ability of "spacial awareness"...

Whoa..whoa...whoa, I'm not debating who wins between Wolverine or Cyclops even stated that earlier. Just commenting on that fact people mentioned the blasts to be lightspeed and called people up and no one has proved evidence. I thought you were on the side of lightspeed

He tagged a person who wasn't even fighting him, he already took out Storm with a punch and then Cyclops tagged him. Northstar's focus was not on his

They confronted each other again recently and Northstar literally schooled him made Cyclops blast his own teamates

Originally posted by #1101
Flash light taped to head is nothing like looking through a visor. If you are in his line of sight when he hits that button, the beam hits you.

With a flashlight taped to your head, you not only look stupid, but the flashlight doesn't necessarily point where your EYES are looking.

Visor =/= flashlight.

Exactally, just about to comment on this

Originally posted by rotiart
I've always been under the impression that cyclop's power came from his iris or pupil and not the sclera (the white part of the eye) I always figured that where he looks is where the beams go, and that he doesn't necessarily have to tilt his head exactly to get the beams to aim at angles or whatnot. As I've seen several instances where the beam isn't exactly straight from his head... but that could be a mistake in artist's rendering or artistic license...

From wiki:
In Civil War: X-Men #4, while trying to blast through a reinforced door, Cyclops powers up Bishop, and Iron Man measures the power at nearly two gigawatts. Two gigawatts is the equivalent to the output of a large nuclear reactor.

thats civil war... even before the supposed emma frost mental tampering that said that cyclops has never used his full potential...

No it comes out from his entire eye as shown countless times when he takes the visor off as the blasts are broad not narrow and cover his entire eye. If your in his field of vision your in his target range.

That's power capacity tapping into the alternate dimension, however that doesn't mean it's lightspeed. Power does not equal lightspeed

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No it comes out from his entire eye as shown countless times when he takes the visor off as the blasts are broad not narrow and cover his entire eye. If your in his field of vision your in his target range.

That's power capacity tapping into the alternate dimension, however that doesn't mean it's lightspeed. Power does not equal lightspeed

Your "field of vision" is dependent upon the light your pupil collects... and sends to your retina... your iris contracts to control the amount of light your pupil receives.. and you sclera controls where your eyeball, iris/pupil looks towards...

and i said it could have been artistic license of the errors since i can't remember an instance where he was trying some kind of a show offy move that would require him to just look at an enemy.

And there is an issue where cyclops was bombarded by enemies wearing ruby quartz suits... and when he fires a blast at one... out of one of his eyes comes 3 thin blasts all at the same time apparently... at least one from the iris and the other from the pupil.. i forget the 3rd but it was either from the iris or pupil... and not the sclera. cyclops even says in that issue that there is a difference between resistence and immunity or some such, and cuts through the ruby quartz material with his blasts.

And i don't think cyclops blasts hit lightspeed. to approach lightspeed you need to have virtually no mass... and if his blasts didn't have mass... well they couldn't be called concussive blasts now could they... no i see the blasts as being powerful, and fast, like a bullet is considered fast (thanks superman 😄)... but nowhere near the speed of light... as even a character such as quicksilver can dodge it...

course i still say cyclops wins the fight... yay scotty... beam him away!

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No it comes out from his entire eye as shown countless times when he takes the visor off as the blasts are broad not narrow and cover his entire eye. If your in his field of vision your in his target range.

That's power capacity tapping into the alternate dimension, however that doesn't mean it's lightspeed. Power does not equal lightspeed

btw. what? field of vision means what you can see... his blasts comes from his eyes... so... of course he can only hit things he can "see" as his field of vision overlaps with the area of effect of his optic beams.

btw... the visors aperature appears to be not much bigger than your pupil... so i say when he takes off the visor, its so he can use the full breadth of the iris also.

i still haven't seen proof for or against that fact... its just my opinion anwaysy 😄

Originally posted by rotiart
Your "field of vision" is dependent upon the light your pupil collects... and sends to your retina... your iris contracts to control the amount of light your pupil receives.. and you sclera controls where your eyeball, iris/pupil looks towards...

and i said it could have been artistic license of the errors since i can't remember an instance where he was trying some kind of a show offy move that would require him to just look at an enemy.

And there is an issue where cyclops was bombarded by enemies wearing ruby quartz suits... and when he fires a blast at one... out of one of his eyes comes 3 thin blasts all at the same time apparently... at least one from the iris and the other from the pupil.. i forget the 3rd but it was either from the iris or pupil... and not the sclera. cyclops even says in that issue that there is a difference between resistence and immunity or some such, and cuts through the ruby quartz material with his blasts.

And i don't think cyclops blasts hit lightspeed. to approach lightspeed you need to have virtually no mass... and if his blasts didn't have mass... well they couldn't be called concussive blasts now could they... no i see the blasts as being powerful, and fast, like a bullet is considered fast (thanks superman 😄)... but nowhere near the speed of light... as even a character such as quicksilver can dodge it...

course i still say cyclops wins the fight... yay scotty... beam him away!

I know, but Cyclops has shown a few times the beams comes from his entire eyes. Also stated "Cyclops's eyes are no longer the complex organic jelly that utilizes the visible spectrum of light to see the world around it". So would it work the same way? *shrugs*

Tell you the truth never saw that issue, did the blasts refract in the quartz or was it three seperate beams before it made contact with the quartz?

Thank christ, that's what I was trying to say all along in this thread. That's why I even got in this debate, I wasn;t making a point for Wolverine simply the fact that members said his blasts were lightspeed. I just wanted some proof if he did anything like that, but no one provided evidence but still claim it as fact so I was getting annoyed.

Originally posted by rotiart
btw. what? field of vision means what you can see... his blasts comes from his eyes... so... of course he can only hit things he can "see" as his field of vision overlaps with the area of effect of his optic beams.

btw... the visors aperature appears to be not much bigger than your pupil... so i say when he takes off the visor, its so he can use the full breadth of the iris also.

i still haven't seen proof for or against that fact... its just my opinion anwaysy 😄

Yeah that's what I was saying, but people in this thread were comparing dodging his blasts to a bullet yet still considered it lightspeed.

The aperature can increase or narrow the size of the blast, in a sense it's a valve. It can create a narrow beam or an enlarged blast

Originally posted by rotiart
Thats nice. but aoa is in continuity....

Originally posted by rotiart
otherwise you wouldn't have characters like nate grey, holocaust, and dark beast existing in current 616 timeline...

Originally posted by rotiart
You're applying the forum rules for non-canon sources... so lets see what it says:

Non-canon sources are invalid for evidence. With rare exceptions, comics not in continuity such as Elseworlds, What Ifs, or alternate universes are not used for evidence in debates of a particular mainstream character.
As well, instances of PIS (plot induce stupidity - see below) and SvFL (Spiderman vs. Firelord - see below) are generally removed from consideration in standard versus debates.

Originally posted by rotiart
A canon source is one that is regarded as being 'in continuity'. In the example of Star Trek; instances from the series and movies can be used, but books are definitely out. Comic book crossovers are usually unusable as they ignore common sense most of the time (DC vs. Marvel is certainly unusable in some cases in our debates!).

Most What If's aren't usable... however... dark beast... a creation from AoA was rewritten to have had a creation in the morlocks of 616 continuity... the sugar man, also a creation of AoA came to 616 and helped create the island of Genosha as we knew it by helping them create, or giving them, mutant enslaving technology...

Originally posted by rotiart
Now generally What If's aren't allowed because of things that are done out of character with the 616... but i'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting cyclops is of the same powerlevel as 616... just as wolverine was... because if you look at the origins of those characters in AoA, its exactly the same as 616, the only differences being the end result character...

Originally posted by rotiart
What If's aren't generally allowed because the string of events needed to create the end result, ie wolverine beating all other heroes... is absurd, as it requires immense CIS and PIS on the heroes parts... however this isn't an issue of CIS... its a measure of the powerlevel of cyclops blasts vs. Adamantium, in this case wolverines hand. which he clearly destroyed in full.

I never claimed it as fact. I stated reasons supporting it, and said in lieu of any alternative estimate the speed may be akin.

However therein lies the question, what speed are Cyclop's optic blasts?
One cannot discount one theory without offering an alternative with basis. Arbitrary m/s.

The dodging argument doesn't really cut it. Considering numerous people in comics are observed to dodge lasers. Are those lasers not travelling at the speed of light?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I never claimed it as fact. I stated reasons supporting it, and said in lieu of any alternative estimate the speed may be akin.

However therein lies the question, what speed are Cyclop's optic blasts?
Arbitrary m/s.

The dodging argument doesn't really cut it. Considering numerous people in comics are observed to dodge lasers. Are those lasers not travelling at the speed of light?

but there have been several characters with concussive blasts that have reflected or refracted off of objects. Your example doesn't quite work.

Sure it does, even basic speedsters and regular joes have dodged it. Depends, as I have several comics with Spider-Man against foes with "lazer guns", but they weren't true lazer blasts.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
What the hell are you talking about? I didn't even read this, once again show me PROOF it goes lightspeed. No once again the burden of proof is on you, not me to provide evidence. So basically you have none and trying to spell off long winded paragraphs with zero facts.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
RE: Actually that;s wrong, it would be harder as you have least time to dodge and react as your in the focal point. Yet even from distances people have continually dodged Cyclops blasts. QS was directly in the line of fire