Wolverine VS Cyclops

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Fine. You want to play this game. Post evidence that the beam isn't lightspeed. Go ahead and post it. You've got all the people on the other side of the fence to convince, prove it wrong.

Unbelievable. When an object is closer to you, the amount of distance you have to cover to move out of his line of sight is propotionately reduced. If I stand directly in front of you, toe-to-toe and I move three feet to the side, I am outside your direct line of vision. Now picture me thirty feet away and I step three feet to the side, I am still within your range of vision. I can't believe you don't understand this.

Once again the burden of proof is on you...YOU! not me.

No it's not, here have a friend uses a pellet gun 1 foot away from you and 10 feet away. What could give you a wider area to dodge? Simple fact, closer the range the distance you have to dodge is considerbly reduced.

Except more people are siding with me now, you have yet to provide evidence yet you cry foul play. Just show me it, that's all I asked in this thread in the first place yet NO ONE! NO ONE! has provided anything. Not really, as your camcroder isn't moving as in attacking your just following a person. Throw a ball at a person close up and then from a distance, it's vastly easier to dodge the ball from a distance than up close. Now do that with a blast that can increase it's size.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Not the same. Cyclops only has to see you to hit you with your light. If you are within his line of sight, he can hit you.

How does Cyclops line his visor up with the target? By angling and turning his head. Superman doesn't need to do that. All Superman does is focus on target and instant Zap! Cyclops has to train his visor's line of sight on the target and that requires head and neck movement, exactly like a freakin camcorder.

He can hit you. And it is certainly easier for him then someone shooting a laser gun. But he can miss. And that is the important thing that is being argued now. Because king_Mungi alleges that if Cyclops' beam moves at light speed, he should never miss... and because he misses, his beams don't move at light speed.

I am trying to collapse his argument by focusing on the supposition that Cyclops should never miss. The fact is, he can, and he can quite easily. Just because DD can dodge bullets, does not make the bullets fired, somehow slower than DD. Such a proposition is being advanced here and it is clearly wrong.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
He can hit you. And it is certainly easier for him then someone shooting a laser gun. But he can miss. And that is the important thing that is being argued now. Because king_Mungi alleges that if Cyclops' beam moves at light speed, he should never miss... and because he misses, his beams don't move at light speed.

I am trying to collapse his argument by focusing on the supposition that Cyclops should never miss. The fact is, he can, and he can quite easily. Just because DD can dodge bullets, does not make the bullets fired, somehow slower than DD. Such a proposition is being advanced here and it is clearly wrong.

I agree with you good luck with some of the others.

At the end of the day though Cyclops 9/10 against Wolverine.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If his optic blasts operated like heat vision. But it doesn't. His line of vision (unless he takes off his visor and goes fullspread), is limited by his visor. If the visor does not line itself up with the target, he will miss with a normal optic blast.

How does Cyclops line his visor up with the target? By angling and turning his head. Superman doesn't need to do that. All Superman does is focus on target and instant Zap! Cyclops has to train his visor's line of sight on the target and that requires head and neck movement, exactly like a freakin camcorder.

He can hit you. And it is certainly easier for him then someone shooting a laser gun. But he can miss. And that is the important thing that is being argued now. Because king_Mungi alleges that if Cyclops' beam moves at light speed, he should never miss... and because he misses, his beams don't move at light speed.

I am trying to collapse his argument by focusing on the supposition that Cyclops should never miss. The fact is, he can, and he can quite easily. Just because DD can dodge bullets, does not make the bullets fired, somehow slower than DD. Such a proposition is being advanced here and it is clearly wrong.

Not really, as shown with the visor on and off he can project a wide-spread diameter blast. Hell, even Superman's heat vision created a wide-spread blast encasing the entire Earth

Not all the time, if he narrows the beam as stated has more power. If he makes a wide-spread beam he doesn't need to do that. Yet, the camcorder rountinely misses it's target when he can project a broad field of vision even against characters with no super reflexes.

He shouldn't as a wide-beam which goes the size he can no he should't miss at all. Since their in his line of vision.

I asked for proof of the blasts going lightspeed, yet no one has provided anything. A concussive force even small, large, durable, not as tough can do massive...massive extensive damage going lightspeed. As stated classic Northstar couldn't as it would cause him and the environment great harm if he did that. Even Superman can't go lightspeed on earth due to him having mass would cause extensive damage to the Earth

Here I'll make this short and sweet as this is all I want...show me proof Cyclops blasts are lightspeed. No more no less, that is all I asked for.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If his optic blasts operated like heat vision. But it doesn't. His line of vision (unless he takes off his visor and goes fullspread), is limited by his visor. If the visor does not line itself up with the target, he will miss with a normal optic blast.

How does Cyclops line his visor up with the target? By angling and turning his head. Superman doesn't need to do that. All Superman does is focus on target and instant Zap! Cyclops has to train his visor's line of sight on the target and that requires head and neck movement, exactly like a freakin camcorder.

He can hit you. And it is certainly easier for him then someone shooting a laser gun. But he can miss. And that is the important thing that is being argued now. Because king_Mungi alleges that if Cyclops' beam moves at light speed, he should never miss... and because he misses, his beams don't move at light speed.

I am trying to collapse his argument by focusing on the supposition that Cyclops should never miss. The fact is, he can, and he can quite easily. Just because DD can dodge bullets, does not make the bullets fired, somehow slower than DD. Such a proposition is being advanced here and it is clearly wrong.

Not necessarily. If he completely opens up his visor and just squints, whatever he sees within the borders of his visor will get hit. He's done it before, the squinting I mean. By doing that, he creates narrow, extremely accurate beams (plural since they come from both eyes). He visor is a bit more accurate in battle scenarios, however.

Originally posted by capt it up
true in away, but then again in away it is false since it not always going on nor is it cannon since it not 616.

Not really any being can come from another reality if they have the means, it does not make the reality they came from 616. This means what ever happens in there universe holds no bounds on the 616 universe. They them self’s how ever since they are in the 616 do effect the 616 reality.

Sweet you just proved my point. Look at were it says alternate universe which aoa is.

You do realize none of this helps your case. AOA Logan is not 616 Logan in which case nothing that AOA Logan does effects 616 in the slightest.

So was war wolverine. His past was the same as 616 and only differed during apoc time. So ya war wolverine is as cannon as aoa wolverine which means neither are cannon or useable sources.

It not 616 wolverine how can you even say it the same type of adamatium? Not only that but the fact is it is PIS for scot to destroy adamatium an unbreakable metal. You are trying not only to use a PIS event, but to also use a non cannon event as evidence.

Okay just to sum up.
There have been several instances stating the power of cyclops blasts...
as being able to level a mountain
crack the planet (or was it the moon? i forget) in half
pulverize adamantium
optic blasts are the equivalent power of 2 gigawatts which was measured by ironman.. (2 gigs is about the power of a large nuclear plant)
where he's leveled an entire forest with one blast..

and now emma says supposedly

It has been stated by earth scientists that true/pure adamantium is virtually indestructible...

Whooo... here we go... its stated that once adamantium hardens, it cannot be altered except on the molecular level... however magnetism doesn't change the molecular structure of an object... the ability of a ferrous object to be repelled or attracted is based upon its ability to transmit electrons... which does not change its molecular structure. When magneto ripped the adamantium out of wolverines body, it wouldn't be because he changed the adamantium at its molecular level (as the magnetic pull between objects does not do that) but that he was merely pulling physically on the adamantium itself. Pulling on it hard enough to break it apart and out of wolverine's body.

Argue all you want with this fact, but you'll find that magnetism as a scientific rule does not change the molecular composure of objects... and it has been stated (i interject hyperbole) that after it hardens, adamantium can only be affected at the molecular level.

adamantium is seen as indestructible by earth's scientists..

once upon a time juggernaut was seen as indestructible and unstoppable also...

once upon a time it was also said that noone could crack a Celestials armor, but later Invisible Woman, Cyclops, Thor and the Odinsword wielding-Destroyer construct have managed to do so.

methinks thou exists too much on the hyperbole that adamantium is indestructible. People used to think supergirl > superman too...

an often forgot example of hulks power over true adamantium.

http://img145.exs.cx/img145/7008/blastaar7os.jpg

http://img135.echo.cx/img135/5110/ock1d3kv.jpg

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Not necessarily. If he completely opens up his visor and just squints, whatever he sees within the borders of his visor will get hit. He's done it before, the squinting I mean. By doing that, he creates narrow, extremely accurate beams (plural since they come from both eyes). He visor is a bit more accurate in battle scenarios, however.

Take a good look. Now notice this: take a photo snapshot of everything within your field of view and trace how expansive that view is from the visor itself. If you're saying everything within that field of view is being hit, the height and width of the beam would have to be quite large. This is dispositive of a narrow and accurate beam hitting everything within the borders of the visor. Your eyesight, even limited with a visor's borders is extremely expansive. Therefore, unless I interpreted your illustration incorrectly, a narrow accurate beam would not hit whatever was in the field of view, it would have to spread out quite a bit.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not to pick a fight, but I tried to picture this literally. According to you, his beams are the width and height of his visor correct? Narrow and accurate beams right? Ok, now do what I did. Turn your hands into a visor. You know, cup them together over your eyes as if you were mimeing looking through a camera and imitate what it would look like, looking through Cyclops' visor.

Take a good look. Now notice this: take a photo snapshot of everything within your field of view and trace how expansive that view is from the visor itself. If you're saying everything within that field of view is being hit, the height and width of the beam would have to be quite large. This is dispositive of a narrow and accurate beam hitting everything within the borders of the visor. Your eyesight, even limited with a visor's borders is extremely expansive. Therefore, unless I interpreted your illustration incorrectly, a narrow accurate beam would not hit whatever was in the field of view, it would have to spread out quite a bit.

look at how cyclops fires... through the ruby quartz..

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0013czczrk9.jpg

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Not to pick a fight, but I tried to picture this literally. According to you, his beams are the width and height of his visor correct? Narrow and accurate beams right? Ok, now do what I did. Turn your hands into a visor. You know, cup them together over your eyes as if you were mimeing looking through a camera and imitate what it would look like, looking through Cyclops' visor.

Take a good look. Now notice this: take a photo snapshot of everything within your field of view and trace how expansive that view is from the visor itself. If you're saying everything within that field of view is being hit, the height and width of the beam would have to be quite large. This is dispositive of a narrow and accurate beam hitting everything within the borders of the visor. Your eyesight, even limited with a visor's borders is extremely expansive. Therefore, unless I interpreted your illustration incorrectly, a narrow accurate beam would not hit whatever was in the field of view, it would have to spread out quite a bit.

You did interpret it incorrectly, no offense.

Do the same thing you told me. Make a visor with your hands. Now, you can still move your eyes all around that area, right? What I was saying is that if the visor was completely open (as in nothing obstructing his vision at all), and Scott squints and manually focuses his own eyes, he can produce thin, pencil-width beams from each eye. He's done it before. Now, using these beams and a completely-open visor, you can shoot anywhere within your field of vision accurately.

Do you see what I mean?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Here I'll make this short and sweet as this is all I want...show me proof Cyclops blasts are lightspeed. No more no less, that is all I asked for.

Neither of your current arguments (the ability to miss, nor the force with which they strike) against lightspeed really hold any more than the arguments for it being lightspeed.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
One should offer an alternative theory with substantive basis. How fast are Cyclop's optic blasts?

I don't know, but lightspeed? I doubt it. Once again I asked for proof that they could go lightspeed when no one provided anything. So why do I have to make an alternative theory or the proof of burden is on me, when I was the one who asked the question? This is getting ridiculous

Originally posted by King_Mungi
I don't know, but lightspeed? I doubt it. Once again I asked for proof that they could go lightspeed when no one provided anything. So why do I have to make an alternative theory or the proof of burden is on me, when I was the one who asked the question?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So you provide no alternative, and have no proof of an alternative speed, yet you still require of others proof? And you don't see a flaw in that?

What are you talking about? why the hell do I have to provide an alternate theory when I asked the question that can Cyclops vision go lightspeed? NO ONE provided anything that even remotely relates it to lightspeed. So why would the questionaire have to explain the situation, when he was the one asking the question? And you don't see a flaw in that?

Don't get all testy. There isn't conclusive proof of the speed of his optic blasts.

One can rationally infer speed may be akin to light.

One is also welcome to infer otherwise, but they need to do so on more than just personal incredulity. If you want to present an alternative, it must also have basis.

well generally... considering the speed at which the speed of light travels (186000 mps)... if for whatever reason cyclops were to fire a blast at anyone, say... juggernaut for example... the minute he looks at you you're hit... however.. even cyclops figures that nightcrawler can port fast enough to avoid getting hit by his blasts.

http://pics.livejournal.com/wal_lace/pic/0004abzr

There are latencies due to the speed of the mechanical parts in his visor. As well as the conscious activation of those parts.

As stated earlier, a projectile being dodged reflects more on the projector than the projectile.

okay how about this one... light travels 186000 miles per second right? dont' we all assume scans take about half a second to a few seconds in between? Cyclops fires a shot that goes through 4 or 5 frames or so before it hits it's target. now if cyclops blast actually moved at 186000 per second, and bounced off all of those artifacts... all the frames shown would have the final frame depicting cyclops hitting his target... rather then showning the beginning of the beam about to hit its target...

http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=copyofscan8ax3an.jpg

Panels drawn in sequence in no way indicate a half second latency between each 🤨
Conversely in a single panel a single beam can ricochet multiple times and strike multiple targets simultaneously.