I don't think the creative team gave a **** on who's more powerful between Thor and the Surfer when they came up with that annual. To be making conclusions either way is seeing waaaay too much into the issue. The book was actually to portray how powerful the big boys are - Galactus, Scrier, the Other and Oblivion.
Sorry for the late reply. Flight boarded. Just arrived at the hotel. Yeah, will be travelling a lot this week.
Anyways, finally, got to the hotel and finished up my reply:
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well, that's a bit of a problem. I could post two, twelve or 200 instances, as long as your mind isn't made up, you could just say it's not enough. You get what I mean?
It''s just that my experience of how some people tend to "present their evidence" around here has required me to oftentimes review and analyze the actual scene presented and to make up my own mind on it's "conclusiveness". I'm keeping an open mind, tho, and for as long as the evidences manage to prove your point, I don't see a problem accepting it.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Meh, I think Thor came off better because he was still on his feet. If you disagree that's fine but I don't see why you would tbh.
Hmm.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Well obviously you think so.
😖hifty:
I already pointed out why I disagreed. And I still do. Bran explained it best, Surfer keeled over because he was most likely dragged down. Thor is clutching his face in agony because he had those things crawling into his facial orifices. Different reactions to different stimuli in an equally bad situation.
I, tbh, don't see how anyone can still see Thor looking better here other than "because I like X character better".
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I don't understand why you're so befuddled by my stance. The light is not emanating or originating from Surfer's hand. Surfer's arm is simply closer to the center and I think it's completely independent from him.
It actually really looks like it does. I've repeatedly posted scans and explanations proving this, but at this point, we'll have to just accept that you refuse to see it because you don't like it.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
You yourself just admitted it's a bit off to the right and yet have no problem attributing the feat to him. That to me, makes no real sense tbh.
Comics art is rarely ever precise. Perspective, positioning, size, etc. is rarely ever perfectly drawn or consistent. It is, however, closer than many other artwork that many people here find no problem attributing to their favorite characters when "feats" are concerned. Let me reiterate that the amount it is off is so minute that you'd have to be desperately trying to deny credit from a character in order to find it as sufficiently "off".
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
What are you talking about? Rachel's ankle is as close to the center as Surfer's hand. Would you attribute the feat to her? No, because it would probably be stupid. Which is entirely my point.
Sure, cuz ankles are like the perfect apendages to cast force fields.... I really hope you're not implying that Rachel casted the force field via her ankle.
And no, Surfer's hand is closer. By a quite a bit. It looks nearly dead center.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
If this is all about giving each character their due, then like Bran said, attributing it to all three is a big deal.
Thor did nothing in the creation of the field. If anything, by his expression, he looks like he was taken a bit surprised by its sudden appearance. They did use their combined power and used Mjolnir as a focusing device to reinforced it, however.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Like I told what's his face, I wasn't sure who created the force field so I didn't mind if it was attributed to Rachel or whatever, I just said Mjolnir cause it looked like the force field he created earlier. And it was too late to edit my post. Also, I like Thor more, but it really doesn't make any difference to me.
What's strange is that you seem to have no problem possibly attributing the force field creation to Rachel due to her gesture (Rachel having both her hands up) and her position (of being between Thor and Surfer - which is far less revelant as it should be more important where one is in relation to the force field than it is in relation to other character). But seem to be in complete refusal in accepting the possibility of Surfer being the source even though he has gesture/position/lightning effects/history going for him.
Even you have to admit that there is more proof that Surfer cast the force field than either Rachel or Thor.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
The force field didn't even do anything particularly insane.
Hm.... When you mentioned:
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Mjolnir is able to protect them from an assault from the Other/Scrier/Galactus and channels the power of Rachel/Surfer/Thor into the other 3:
And:
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
For those who don't know, the Other and Scrier are two Cosmic Beings on the level of Galactus who were destroying creation/reality in a three way fight:
You heavily implied about the impressiveness of the "feat", but now that you can no longer attribute it to Thor, it has suddenly lost much of its impressiveness?
........
..................
Well, that's just swell.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I just find a hard giving Surfer credit because of a lighting effect. Frankly, I'd have an easier time accepting you crediting it to Surfer just because you like him more.
PC blasts are lighting effects, lightning bolts are lighting effects, heat vision is a lighting effect, the damned freakin force field we're talking about is actually a lighting effect.
Do we suddenly start discrediting "feats" of characters because it is attributed to lighting effects?
Well, I guess the fact that you have downgraded your position of "Mjolnir protected them" and have toned it down to "the force field came from the three of them" (which doesn't really make sense to me unless you're implying that they somehow telepathically signalled each other to create a single force field together in complete synchronizaion instead of the force field simply coming from one person and reinforced by the three, but whatevs) can be chalked up as a compromise from you of sorts.... I guess I'll take that as a W.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Nah, that was just the status quo for Fraction's Thor. I can make a list of all the times he's threatened to kill/maim/destroy/bash in his enemies if you like. He had a very short temper and had no qualms about taking lives. He was aggressive against Surfer in the sense that he didn't try to find an alternate solution but that's about it.It would in that he'd be more aggressive, but I don't think he'd be any more real headway unless he goes insane and gets retard strength or something. We saw Surfer lose his cool, he didn't make any progress at any point whether he was the aggressor or not, despite Thor's wound. Which is why I think Thor looked more favorable in their fight.
He was aggressive against Surfer to the point of trying to kill him as stated. In other words he had killing intent, while Surfer didn't.
I think it would make headway. When you're pissed and willing to kill you won't pull your punches as much. I'm willing to bet a punch from a pissed Thor hurts a lot more than a punch from a calm Thor. Surfer lost his cool at the end of the fight, yet still showed kindness right after. When your opponent shows concern for your wounds, I doubt they're seriously trying to harm you.
Originally posted by Branlor Swift
Yeah, I'm done with this discussion.- RageofAbhi
July 21, 2013How little we know it takes for the Other to defeat both of them. The Other literally killed Surfer before in a page.
If the little greys were actively attacking their minds at the time, both would have been put to sleep instantly. Which is why I think it had less to do with pain, as opposed to subduing them to 'kill' them. Hell, they even managed to wrestle around Scrier for a little bit in Scrier 137Because really, Thor is not resisting the Other attacking his mind, let alone better than anyone.
That's not the whole scene...
But, they were formed from Surfer/Thor's mind. They evidently weren't just mental warriors either considering the physical aspect of it. He created thousands of Surfer's and Thor's from their minds. I'm not sure what you're arguing here... that they were illusions, mental projections?
And Rachel was created in a dream (supposedly), he actively plucked these warriors from Thor/Surfer. He also seemingly activated hundreds of other Rachels as well.http://i42.tinypic.com/30wpdeo.jpg
Though that doesn't rule out it being at the edge of reality.
Too bad, I was having fun.
I don't understand, we see those f*cks crawling into their mind and Surfer said he felt the Other eating away at his core or whatever. Thor was able to resist the entire force momentarily before he was consumed btw.
You're just jelly.
What? The other Surfer's and Thor's never appear again after that page. I'm not entirely sure what they are but based on the description, they were closer to mental projections. Personalities given some form, not real in the sense of Surfer/Thor.
Hmm, so nice flight speed feat for Thor I guess as it was mentioned as being at the edge of reality in this comic.
Originally posted by vince_slice
He was aggressive against Surfer to the point of trying to kill him as stated. In other words he had killing intent, while Surfer didn't.I think it would make headway. When you're pissed and willing to kill you won't pull your punches as much. I'm willing to bet a punch from a pissed Thor hurts a lot more than a punch from a calm Thor. Surfer lost his cool at the end of the fight, yet still showed [b]kindness
right after. When your opponent shows concern for your wounds, I doubt they're seriously trying to harm you. [/B]
I think he had no qualms about killing Surfer but that's not out of character extreme blood lusted for Matt Fraction like you claimed. I think his Thor would fight everyone from the Wrecking Crew to Galactus with that type of intent for example.
Probably although Fraction's Thor is always pissed and routinely goes above and beyond so it's harder to establish a base line for him as we normally would. There's obviously a difference in power levels but since his Thor is always angry in a fight, we can't really reach a consensus.
I think that's where you and I differ. While I believe Surfer didn't actively try and kill Thor, at least for the most part, I have serious doubts he held back to any degree that it would give him an advantage over Thor. Surfer could have been spouting obscenities and claiming he'd kill Thor but I still don't think he'd be winning.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Sorry for the late reply. Flight boarded. Just arrived at the hotel. Yeah, will be travelling a lot this week.Anyways, finally, got to the hotel and finished up my reply:
It''s just that my experience of how some people tend to "present their evidence" around here has required me to oftentimes review and analyze the actual scene presented and to make up my own mind on it's "conclusiveness". I'm keeping an open mind, tho, and for as long as the evidences manage to prove your point, I don't see a problem accepting it.
Hmm.
😖hifty:
I already pointed out why I disagreed. And I still do. Bran explained it best, Surfer keeled over because he was most likely dragged down. Thor is clutching his face in agony because he had those things crawling into his facial orifices. Different reactions to different stimuli in an equally bad situation.
I, tbh, don't see how anyone can still see Thor looking better here other than "because I like X character better".
It actually really looks like it does. I've repeatedly posted scans and explanations proving this, but at this point, we'll have to just accept that you refuse to see it because you don't like it.
Comics art is rarely ever precise. Perspective, positioning, size, etc. is rarely ever perfectly drawn or consistent. It is, however, closer than many other artwork that many people here find no problem attributing to their favorite characters when "feats" are concerned. Let me reiterate that the amount it is off is so minute that you'd have to be desperately trying to deny credit from a character in order to find it as sufficiently "off".
Sure, cuz ankles are like the perfect apendages to cast force fields.... I really hope you're not implying that Rachel casted the force field via her ankle.
And no, Surfer's hand is closer. By a quite a bit. It looks nearly dead center.
Thor did nothing in the creation of the field. If anything, by his expression, he looks like he was taken a bit surprised by its sudden appearance. They did use their combined power and used Mjolnir as a focusing device to reinforced it, however.
What's strange is that you seem to have no problem possibly attributing the force field creation to Rachel due to her gesture (Rachel having both her hands up) and her position (of being between Thor and Surfer - which is far less revelant as it should be more important where one is in relation to the force field than it is in relation to other character). But seem to be in complete refusal in accepting the possibility of Surfer being the source even though he has gesture/position/lightning effects/history going for him.
Even you have to admit that there is more proof that Surfer cast the force field than either Rachel or Thor.
Hm.... When you mentioned:
And:
You heavily implied about the impressiveness of the "feat", but now that you can no longer attribute it to Thor, it has suddenly lost much of its impressiveness?
........
..................
Well, that's just swell.PC blasts are lighting effects, lightning bolts are lighting effects, heat vision is a lighting effect, the damned freakin force field we're talking about is actually a lighting effect.
Do we suddenly start discrediting "feats" of characters because it is attributed to lighting effects?
Well, I guess the fact that you have downgraded your position of "Mjolnir protected them" and have toned it down to "the force field came from the three of them" (which doesn't really make sense to me unless you're implying that they somehow telepathically signalled each other to create a single force field together in complete synchronizaion instead of the force field simply coming from one person and reinforced by the three, but whatevs) can be chalked up as a compromise from you of sorts.... I guess I'll take that as a W.
So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's not conclusive evidence of Thor being tougher but him being able to stand his ground at least looks like he's handling it better to me.
Regarding all the force field stuff, at this point I think the only fair conclusion is that all three created the damn thing. Anything else is us too inconclusive to waste time debating. I'd like to credit it to Mjolnir but I'm leaning towards Rachel tbh, you want to give it to Surfer etc.
Everyone always assumes things come down to Thor with me, which I guess isn't entirely untrue. That was me being overzealous with the feat. I'm done making assumptions about this scene. Personally I believe this force field was enough of a deterrence that the three Cosmics chose not to attack but since we didn't see it happen, I'm not going to speculate. I don't want to get caught up for four pages about whether or not they could break through it.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
I think he had no qualms about killing Surfer but that's not out of character extreme blood lusted for Matt Fraction like you claimed. I think his Thor would fight everyone from the Wrecking Crew to Galactus with that type of intent for example.Probably although Fraction's Thor is always pissed and routinely goes above and beyond so it's harder to establish a base line for him as we normally would. There's obviously a difference in power levels but since his Thor is always angry in a fight, we can't really reach a consensus.
I think that's where you and I differ. While I believe Surfer didn't actively try and kill Thor, at least for the most part, I have serious doubts he held back to any degree that it would give him an advantage over Thor. Surfer could have been spouting obscenities and claiming he'd kill Thor but I still don't think he'd be winning.
That's the thing, Thor had killing intent, while Surfer didn't. Hence Surfer held back a lot more than Thor by definition. Thor treated Surfer like he was fighting an enemy (e.g., willing to kill him), while Surfer treated Thor like he was fighting an ally (e.g., showing concern for his wound).
To me it looked like Surfer was simply defending himself because he clearly didn't want to fight Thor. Thor on the other hand looked like he was seriously trying to maim and kill Surfer. I think the overall scene depicts Surfer holding back far more than Thor did, which makes up for the wound IMO.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's not conclusive evidence of Thor being tougher but him being able to stand his ground at least looks like he's handling it better to me.
Well, agree to disagree here, then. I stand by my position that they both handled it equally as badly, however. 😛
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Regarding all the force field stuff, at this point I think the only fair conclusion is that all three created the damn thing. Anything else is us too inconclusive to waste time debating. I'd like to credit it to Mjolnir but I'm leaning towards Rachel tbh, you want to give it to Surfer etc.
We can't really "attribute the creation of the force field" to the 3 of them no more than we can attribute the Gorr/Thor planet smashing as a "joint feat". Thor clearly had nothing to do with it. It was either Rachel or the Surfer with more evidence supporting it being the Surfer than it does being Rachel. If you'd acknowledge that, at least, then I can go ahead and concider that as an acceptable compromise on the interpretation of the scene in question.
I don't "want" to give it to Surfer. It's just that evidence IMO clearly points to it being him. I always consider evidence as being never about which character one likes but about what the evidence is telling you.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Everyone always assumes things come down to Thor with me, which I guess isn't entirely untrue. That was me being overzealous with the feat. I'm done making assumptions about this scene. Personally I believe this force field was enough of a deterrence that the three Cosmics chose not to attack but since we didn't see it happen, I'm not going to speculate. I don't want to get caught up for four pages about whether or not they could break through it.
Nothing wrong with repping one's character. 😛 It certainly allows one to enjoy little debates like this. TBF, Thor fans (in my experience so far anyway) have been some of the more level-headed debaters around here.
Originally posted by Rage.Of.OlympusRequoting your lies there fella. You're done with this discussion,, but not quite as it seems.
Too bad, I was having fun.I don't understand, we see those f*cks crawling into their mind and Surfer said he felt the Other eating away at his core or whatever. Thor was able to resist the entire force momentarily before he was consumed btw.
You're just jelly.
What? The other Surfer's and Thor's never appear again after that page. I'm not entirely sure what they are but based on the description, they were closer to mental projections. Personalities given some form, not real in the sense of Surfer/Thor.
Hmm, so nice flight speed feat for Thor I guess as it was mentioned as being at the edge of reality in this comic.
That's not true. He was saying he trusted Scrier more than the Other because of what he felt by the Other. Since he's dealt with the Other like 3 times prior.
Surfer didn't even say a word until Thor asked him why he trusted him. Surfer didn't just start 'trusting' him because he just felt the Other for the first time. In fact, that wouldn't even make sense in the context of the page either. "I have felt..."
http://i41.tinypic.com/28coa9y.jpg
Sure thing.
http://i39.tinypic.com/17pffm.jpg
But they were physically attacking the beings. If they were given form though, I'm sure the first statement of Scrier creating a thousand Surfers and Thors was entirely inaccurate... ?
Yes. Scrier and Surfer moved beyond dimensional space to reach it. Thor either traveled really ****ing fast, or he teleported there. Either way, good feat.
