Vader Vs. Dr. Doom

Originally posted by wrathofachilles
It is NOT a contradiction, you're not listening. Tele involves moving an object across a distance, the Force Choke is not moving an object across a distance, it is manipulating energy. It's not about 'moving' something, it's about causing something to happen from a distance, no movement of objects required. Choking someone is not moving something.

Crushing somebody's windpipe, like you said earlier, IS movement across a distance. It's the walls of the windpipe moving a distance inward until they're close enough to choke that person.

Your strict defintion of telekinesis is very basic. Choking somebody can be done by telekinesis. You could even pick locks, start fires, and freeze things.

Injuring the windpipe in any way is sufficient to choke a person, the walls don't really have to be close enough to cut off the air flow. It's delicate enough to damage a person however it's harmed. Anyway, my definition of telekinesis is more literal, it's a subcategory of psychokinesis that deals with manipulating an object and moving it around, not controlling something from a distance, which is just general psychokinesis. We could beat this thing to death, but basically it may be construed as telekinesis but Vader's abilities are not simply limited to telekinesis. Thus Doom's protection against 'telekinesis' would not make any difference against Vader. He could crush the windpipe anyway because it's controlling something within his forcefield.

WOA: are u assuming they r fighting in the SWU...cuz as far as i know the Force is only omnipotent in the SWU...in the MU, it doesnt exist, so an argument like "nothing can stop the force choke" is useless

and yes this thread was stomped out...we argued forever, it was very good sport...have u read the previous pages? Your first problem was u assumed this battle occured in the SWU...no one ever makes the argument assuming their character is not in a neutral environment, thats simply one of the widely accepted terms of this forum...
next, u said he is not a cancer patient...nor did I...I said he was like a 70 year old AIDS patient 🙂 ...of course it matters, he is not healthy enough to survive without the aid of his armor. Furthermore he can't even walk without his mediocre robot body. Yes I called it sh!itty earlier...thats because it is...by Marvel standards. In the Watcher's citadel on the moon, Doom took control of vastly more advanced robots in mere moments. It is undeniable that a watcher's tech is greater than that of the SWU...watchers r immortal cosmic beings nearly as old as the universe itself. Not primitive cellular animals that still respirate and exchange with their environment like Vader...how do i know he respirates? because he is on a respirator.

Next, you said Doom is unhealthy under his armor...are u serious?...Doom killed the lion without armor. Do u know anyhumans that can kill a lion with their bare hands with a naked body, who r not in good health? Of course not. Doom wears armor because it makes him physically powerul. He wears a mask because he has a scarred face..but im glad i could teach u about comic characters.

Next, Doom will not be protected by his armor if Vader controls the energy around him? again, ur assuming this is in the SWU...Dooms armor can temporarily protect him from Hyperstorm's monster or a herald of Galactus, thus I think it can protect him from an AIDS patient with a laser sword and telekinetic like powers that would make people in Marvel laugh. I know manipulation of the force is not TK..but in terms of MU it is laughable...The force is the strongest thing in the SWU...however compared to the power cosmic, biospheric energy, mystical energy, Infinity Gems, Cosmic Cubes, etc: the power of the force would be a very distant 16th in the MU.

I would like to note that i did not start any new arguments...I only addressed the statements u made...If u reread your post u will see u refuted my argument...then didnt elaborate on why my argument was wrong...I addressed your argument though because i thought it was more polite...I also think it made my argument more credible...I would find your arguments more convincing if u made statements based on comic events and not pure opinion...maybe in my next post i will come up with some new material instead of taking yours apart.

I thought we did conclude that they were fighting on neutral terms (at full power wherever they are). I do see, and agree, with your point though.

Originally posted by Kontraz
Primo: why kill someone instantly with a force choke when you can make them suffer? I mean, if it felt like every cell in doom's body was about to explode, i dont think doom would just stand there and try to fight, honestly.

And if I understand it correctly, Vader doesn't use the force choke much because it's too easy ?! Riiight...

irrelivant. Its a given vader would most likely lose with out his armor. Let's just say they both get their armor and not go back into that one...

The jedi ability with the compliments of a lightsaber allows Darth Vader to repel laser projectiles, but I do not know (or doubt) whether this includes the energy projectiles that emit from Dr. Doom's suit.

The inclusion of choke holding attacks during a one-on-one fight does not seem to be part of Vader's repetoire in most cases. It could be a pride thing. I acknowledge Vader as powerful, but I do not see him defeating Dr. Doom in a fight.

Off the topic, I believe it was the Stars Wars Imperial comic where Vader was killed by an attack by Han and another after he took down Leia and Yoda. How disappointing an ending.

It doesn't matter what universe it is in, if it's going to be a fair-match up, Vader needs to have his powers, otherwise the fight is pointless. And I never said Doom was unhealthy under his armor, I said he was screwed up, meaning superficially. As for Doom being protected in his armor, again, it doesn't matter if it's in the Star Wars universe. Both combatants must have all their abilities or there is no reason to have this debate. Obviously Doom can win if Vader can't be Vader. Vader would win if Doom can't be Doom. That's not how you analyze the combatants. Besides, I believe I argued at some point that the winner would be whichever one had 'home-field advantage.' If Doom lands on the Executor, Vader wins. If Vader lands in Latveria, Doom wins.

Also, my arguments are not based on opinion, they are based on facts about Vader. You can't base it on comic events because Vader and Doom are different kinds of characters. It's even further apart than DC vs. Marvel. SW is light years *pardon the pun* away from Marvel.

Again, Doom is not going to 'tear Vader's armor apart.' Vader is not going to stand there and let him do that. His physical abilities are not sufficient, and his magic may well be, but it would depend on which was faster in deploying their mystical abilities. Also, Vader does not need the lightsaber to deflect lasers. His command over the Force is much superior to normal Jedi/Sith and he can manipulate virtually any energy around him to a greater degree than anyone, maybe including Yoda.

Originally posted by wrathofachilles
Injuring the windpipe in any way is sufficient to choke a person, the walls don't really have to be close enough to cut off the air flow. It's delicate enough to damage a person however it's harmed. Anyway, my definition of telekinesis is more literal, it's a subcategory of psychokinesis that deals with manipulating an object and moving it around, not controlling something from a distance, which is just general psychokinesis. We could beat this thing to death, but basically it may be construed as telekinesis but Vader's abilities are not simply limited to telekinesis. Thus Doom's protection against 'telekinesis' would not make any difference against Vader. He could crush the windpipe anyway because it's controlling something within his forcefield.

I wasn't talking about "choke" though. I was saying to "crush" is to move the object in on itself, like crushing a baby (which could be done with telekinesis), which would contradict you saying Vader wasn't moving anything. And then ya went crazy.

I'm smart ok, I like to use lots of different words and terms, lol. Moving the walls of the windpipe isn't sufficient tele for me. I require seeing something move across a room before I shall designate said act as tele. I am a stickler for the literal things in life. I have nothing else in life! You shant take this away from me!

I'd say Doom, only because I'm entirely biased. Dr. Doom is my favorite villian and Star Wars is losing its cool factor with the recent Episodes 1 and 2. I'll debate this topic unbiased when George Lucas comes to a final descision on what Jedi can and cannot do. In the newer movie, they seem to get a new powers that the never did in the later movies.

how is Doom not capable of harming Vader...his base armor is easily more than anyone from the SWU can handle

The Jedi didn't exist in the later movies, that's why they show 'new' powers in the first trilogy. Yoda doesn't have to prove anything since he's A: the Master, B: old as hell, and C: not around anyone who needs to see pointless displays of power. He and Ben were there to train Luke, not show him all the cool stuff they could do.

I didn't say Doom wasn't capable of harming Vader, but the way you say it is though Doom will just tear Vader's armor apart. That's not going to happen. Vader is more powerful than Doom, plain and simple. This isn't an armor debate. It's not even an intellect debate. The fact is Vader is powerful enough to keep Doom from getting near him and thus can eventually find a way to kill him. Like I said, Doom can find a way to kill Vader too, but he has to get near him first unless he somehow happens to have a significant weapon on his person at the time he enters the fight.

Well, I hate to say it like this, but it's Doom, so we know damn well that he'll have sufficient weapons on his person entering the fight, prep or no prep. Just my two cents.

And I wasn't aware that telekinesis was scientifically expalined, seeing as how I've never heard of anyone on this world actually being capable of using it, unless I've missed a few issues of Nstional Geographic or something. Anything said about telekinesis by science would have to be theory, not fact. And as far as I know, doing something with your mind to a person or object, would go in the telekinesis category, in my opinion anyways. And what person on this Earth can kill a lion with his bare hands? And with what training? I'm sure there's a person in a shaolin temple somewhere that can drop a lion with a kick to the throat or something, but wrath, to say killing a lion with your bare hands means nothing is ridiculous. Unless you're built exactly like a f*cking gorilla, you have to be an incredibly skilled son of a b*tch to take out a full grown lion with your hands. Just two more cents for those subjects.

Originally posted by Tron
And I wasn't aware that telekinesis was scientifically expalined, seeing as how I've never heard of anyone on this world actually being capable of using it, unless I've missed a few issues of Nstional Geographic or something. Anything said about telekinesis by science would have to be theory, not fact.

Would be cool though...

Definitely.

And here's a thread on another site similar to this one, some pretty good points made on it:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=25581&page=1&pp=15

Damn, I had that many typos? Man, now I know I must be tired, lol.

Originally posted by Tron
And I wasn't aware that telekinesis was scientifically expalined, seeing as how I've never heard of anyone on this world actually being capable of using it, unless I've missed a few issues of Nstional Geographic or something. Anything said about telekinesis by science would have to be theory, not fact. And as far as I know, doing something with your mind to a person or object, would go in the telekinesis category, in my opinion anyways. And what person on this Earth can kill a lion with his bare hands? And with what training? I'm sure there's a person in a shaolin temple somewhere that can drop a lion with a kick to the throat or something, but wrath, to say killing a lion with your bare hands means nothing is ridiculous. Unless you're built exactly like a f*cking gorilla, you have to be an incredibly skilled son of a b*tch to take out a full grown lion with your hands. Just two more cents for those subjects.

No, it's been scientifically discussed. Everything has been touched by science, even the paranormal. My definition is based on the Greek 'tele' and 'kinein' though, not just the actual practice of telekinesis.

If I said killing a lion means nothing I retract that. Of course it's a big deal, I just mean that it can be done by a normal human. It takes a great deal of training yes, but a human is capable of doing that. The fact is it requires training to kill a lion, not training to be a great fighter. Bruce Lee couldn't kill a lion, but he could beat Doom's ass in a hand-to-hand fight.

By hand-to-hand I hope you realize just the two of them fighting. No armor or weapons.

Yes, Bruce Lee could definitly take a lion, with a little study. He wasn't called the greatest martial artist ever because he had a few muscles. But I digress.

oh yea...Vader...Doom....fight....yadda yadda...