Originally posted by The Omega
Jury> I’ll just let the beginning of your post stand for itself.
Me :”Let me ask you this: According to your belief must one know God and embrace him to be saved and go to Heaven?”You: ”Just one of God's commandments.”
So… What about all the people on the planet who existed before the invention of Judaism and Christianity? They’re in hell?
What about all the people living at the time of Judaisms invention in far-away lands, like Australia and North America, with no chance of EVER hearing the word of God. Are they in Hell, too?
Those who sinned under the law will be judged under the law.
And those who sinned apart from the law will be judged apart from the law.
When will it be? Of course, come Judgment Day. There's nobody in the hell yet, except Satan and his evil spirits. Nobody in the heaven yet, except God, Christ, and the rest as stated in the Bible.
On Judgment Day. All who died on God and on Christ will be resurrected to receive the promise of salvation together with the living who remained faithful and live eternally in the New Jerusalem.
And all who died and sinned against God will be resurrected to die once more. It is the second death ... the eternal damnation into the lake of fire.
Blessed are those who would belong to the first resurrection for they wouldn't be able to experience the second death anymore.
Originally posted by Linkalicious
logic and the bible
Not mortal enemies, no way. The Bible gives a certain view on the world and logic another. Combining the two is just very good, but logic only works with more knowledge. You cannot reason cause and effect exhaustively if you don't know all the facts. And the latter is the problem: science is limited in gvining us all the facts, science is trying to figure things out using certain models. Combining them is good.
But saying: that or that's impossible if you ask me and the says it happens, so it's nonsense is afulty reasoning. You have to back that up.
Why? In my understanding the Bible is all about individuals, it's basically a big letter from God to an individual person in which He explains how He prefers you to live. He doesn't force you into it, He wants the best for you and explains how that can be best achieved. Now you can dismiss all that and you just see how things end. I don't think believers should foist their 'rules of life' (if you want to call it to) unto non-believers. If you don't care about God, why would you care about His morality. Among believers there's a slight difference, since God makes believers responsible for each other, but we're all individuals and God treats us like that.
Hmmm...I see what you're saying. However, it's hard to deny that many many people take the bible way way to seriously and litterally, thus making them believe some things that could be considered illogical. The above statement is an example of this.
Perhaps I worded my statement improperly. "the bible and logic are mortal enemies". What I meant was that people who believe the bible fully and to the letter usually also advocate illogical beliefs, such as the homosexuals going to hell for no reason, which is a blatantly illogical belief.
However, logic can be associate with the bible. For instance, I think the people who consider the bible as nothing more then a guide full of stories and examples to help them live a good, honest life without taking every word literally and seriously are being perfectly logical. That's what I belive the bible is, just a guide for people who need help or guidance for their lives, not to be taken letter for letter literally.
I understand what you mean. But the 'homosexual' thing is not entirely illogical if you replace that word by 'sin'. Another heavy word, but basically it comes down to the fact taht everyone's a sinner. That includes homosexuality, stealing, killing, lying, thinking lowly of other people, hurting people, adultery, jealousy etc, etc. If you make the whole list then everyone is guilty of something. And that's not the point even when Jesus comes in to play. So we're all sinners, we're all screwed from taht point of view. What it comes down to is: what are you gonna do about it? And if you believe in God and eternal life etc., it goes a tad further because te Bible says clearly we are all guilty and that we cannot get rid of that sin forever. If you want to come to God, tehre is way which is called Jesus. That requires a certain submission out of your free will and includes that you have to admit you suck. But the great news is: God loves you despite the fact that you suck. So God loves a non-gay Christian just as much as a gay non-Christian, be He doesn't like the gayness itself (according to the Bible) just as much as He doesn't like the non-gay Christian to condemn a homosexual to hell.
That sort of sums it up. It's fairly logical in my mind, I try to look at the bigger picture here.
Well, in my mind, there really is no bigger picture. This is it, as far as I'm concerned, and I think much of that is illogical. Especially this - The fact that you can be condemned to hell, to be tortured and in anguish forever, just because you stole a candy bar, and nother more. That seems like a bit of over kill to me, and quite illogical. As does going to hell because of your sexuality, which you cannot change unless by force, in which case, deep down you are still the way god DOESN'T want you to be because no matter how hard a person tries to hide it, they are still who they are, and apparantly god knows this. So even if a gay person was to hide and deny the fact that they were gay, in an attempt to get into gods good graces, wouldn't he still, deep down, have those same feelings that he's trying to repress, and wouldn't he get sent to hell because of those feelings? I just don't think that makes much sense.
What does make sense, to me, is the basic basic ideas in the bibles. The ones that I feel are the main premises of the book. Be kind to your fellow man, don't hurt other people, think of others before yourself, basically everything that shows you why you should be a good human being. I think these are what's important in the bible, I think the rest are just parts of the stories that are built on these premises main premises..
The point I was trying to make: you don't go to hell just because of your acts (either good or bad). It has to do with your standing to God, not with what you do or do not.
And if tehre is such a things as a God, a Creator, would He not be entitled to give some kind of judgement over you. If you keep in the back of your mind that He's called a righteous Judge of all the Earth, and if that's true, His judgement is proper.
But if there's no bigger picture for you, then so be it. You're entirely entitled to that and even the God of the Bible grants you that: He gave you a free will and you are free in how you apply that.
Of course he is entitled to give judgement to his "children". But what I find illogical, and what I have a problem with, is that much of what he judges people on seem so trivial. For instance...
By what you said, and by what is generally believed by Christians, is that no matter your crime, or sin, you can be forgiven by repenting and taking god as your own. So therefore, a person who killed and raped 300 people in his life time can get into heaven by repenting on his death bed, and taking god into his heart and all that good stuff. On the other hand, someone who steals a candybar, or a soda or what have you, can get sent to hell for that if he does NOT believe in god.
I find the whole idea of God sending people to hell based soley on their belief and feelings towards him hugely illogical. Especially if someone like Hitler could get into heaven after causing the slaughter of millions of people as long as he takes god into his heart afterwards. I just can't see any logic in that. None at all.
[B]And what of the homosexuals that HAVE accepted God as their savior, and are still gay? Why hasn't God changed them?The fact is, they shouldn't have to change in order to get on good terms with God. If they are good, decent, honest people who aren't hurting anyone, God should already love them and not worry about something as trivial as who they happen to be attracted to. [B]
Its not a matter of how they feel or who they are attracted to, but how they act upon those feelings and attractions. If you are gay then you are directly disobeying a rule that God put down. He clearly says that homosexuality is wrong (there are several verses in leviticus on that) and if you act on any feelings that you might have for people of the same sex then you are going against God. If you ask Him to change you, however, then he will answer your prayers, but you have to *want* to change, have to *want* to glorify God.
Originally posted by BackFire
Of course he is entitled to give judgement to his "children". But what I find illogical, and what I have a problem with, is that much of what he judges people on seem so trivial. For instance...By what you said, and by what is generally believed by Christians, is that no matter your crime, or sin, you can be forgiven by repenting and taking god as your own. So therefore, a person who killed and raped 300 people in his life time can get into heaven by repenting on his death bed, and taking god into his heart and all that good stuff. On the other hand, someone who steals a candybar, or a soda or what have you, can get sent to hell for that if he does NOT believe in god.
I find the whole idea of God sending people to hell based soley on their belief and feelings towards him hugely illogical. Especially if someone like Hitler could get into heaven after causing the slaughter of millions of people as long as he takes god into his heart afterwards. I just can't see any logic in that. None at all.
You could perhaps if you looked at it from His perpective. Now I know that's a lot to ask, but I do believe God looks at us in a completely different perspective. I don't believe we're being transformed upon our death in people without memories of their earthly lives. We will always be aware of our (past) sins. It says somehwere that God will wipe the tears of our faces when we come to Him.
And again, I am not going to say who's going to hell or not. I;m glad I don't have to decide that. I am sure I would do a very lousy job. If you want to know how it works, ask Him.
Originally posted by BackFire
"If a homosexual person was to walk into my church, then we would invite them in and welcome them. Just because we dont approve of their way of life, doesnt mean that we're going to reject them."No, you'd let you're all caring and all wonderful God do that and send them to hell because of their way of life, despite the fact that it's hurting no one.
God created Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve, The bible is a guide line to live our lives by. The bible does strongly talk against that, ninjaturtle said it very good. We as christians are to welcome them, just not condone their life style. Jesus will change them if they become a christian their desires wil change, they will seek for Gods ways, not their ways. 🙂
Originally posted by queeq
You could perhaps if you looked at it from His perpective. Now I know that's a lot to ask, but I do believe God looks at us in a completely different perspective. I don't believe we're being transformed upon our death in people without memories of their earthly lives. We will always be aware of our (past) sins. It says somehwere that God will wipe the tears of our faces when we come to Him.
And again, I am not going to say who's going to hell or not. I;m glad I don't have to decide that. I am sure I would do a very lousy job. If you want to know how it works, ask Him.
True True, I would not want that Job at all!!!! 🙁
Originally posted by BackFire
"God created Adam & Eve, not Adam & Steve"Congratulations, you're the 10,000th person to use that idiotic line as a defense of prejudice against gays, well done. Cliches never die, I guess.
I have this theory that if everyone who ever said that line died overnight we would wake up in utopia.