The Bible

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
The Garden of Eden wasn't a rebellion, it was stupidity on God's part. What ass puts something forbidden in plain reach of someone who isn't supposed to have it? It's like leaving a razor on the floor when you have a toddler.

If God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the Forbidden Tree of Knowledge, then he should not have made it so they could get at it. If us "mere humans" can figure that out, I'm sure an all-knowing God would have thought of the same.

It was meant to be a test. In a way is a metaphor. It shows that man and woman are weak and stupid. Even when they are told to follow the rules they don't obey, and break them. Thus proves that God is smarter and humans are stupid. Is simply a metaphor.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I guess thats kind of the thing about religion, it needs faith. I imagine miracles don't leave much in the way of remains or evidence, thus its hard to prove, or disprove. And we can't really know what occurred back then, I mean, be 100% sure, people just have to have faith in that (if your that way inclined, I am not completely)

Originally posted by Turbo-Cajun
So god's perfect creation was not really perfect then if it created satan...

Originally posted by Fiery Eyes
😕 well then, how and why did Satan sin?? God didn't put anything in front of him, it was greed, jeolousy and power that made him thk he was better than God, and he sinned.

Actually, God was the jealous one, and the greedy one, and the one who wants to be called the most powerful. Satan probably could have been better than God, but God didn't want any of it, and banished him to hell. As I recall, jealousy is one of the 7 deadly sins. Wow, God sinned.

I see God as that kid who thinks he is the best, and then another kid comes along who is/could be better than him(Satan), and the 1st kid takes him out before the 2nd kid could fufill his potential.

Originally posted by Ytaker
I'm clearing this mess up once and for all. God cannot do everything.

As far as I am concerned you proved my point.

What good is a limited god? If you're going to think like that, you may as well have whole pantheon of gods covering different aspects.

Hmm, an interesting point, I know that is an issue that is often debated, that it is double think to have the concept of an omnipotent, omnipresent, supremely good God that is bound by universal rules. Is it possible God might not have been able to create free will without "evil", then if thats the case God is not all powerful..... but of course there is the old chestnut "God works in mysterious ways.....", perhaps it is not for us to understand such conflicting concepts (and yes I know this does not really offer a satisfactory answer.)

Originally posted by finti
not so perfect after all this god christian god..and jewish god

[list][*] 1. God is perfect. (premise)
[*] 2. God deliberately created the universe. (premise)
[*] 3. Perfection entails the lack of needs or wants. (premise)
[*] 4. Being perfect, god does not now nor ever has nor ever will have any needs or wants. (from 1, 3)
[*] 5. Deliberate creation entails an effort to satisfy some need or want. (premise)
[*] 6. Being a creator, god at one time had some need or want. (from 2, 5)
[*] 7. It is impossible to have some need or want and also to never have any need or want.
[*] 8. Conclusion: god, if it exists, is either not perfect or has not created anything. (from 4, 6)
[/list]
If god is perfect, then god can' t have any needs or wants, hence, god wouldn' t bother creating something. If god deliberately creates something, it must be because of some need or want even if it is as simple as curiosity.

Theists may reject premise 3 - the idea that perfection means not having any needs or wants. One argument is that god was so full of love that it wanted to share its love with other and thus created other beings - but this example of a want does not give a reason why the premise is wrong, it simply denies it.

Another argument against premise 3 is that perfection is compatible with having needs or wants. I just don' t see any merit to this, as it goes against the basic understanding of what 'perfect' means: lacking nothing essential to the whole. If god needed something, then god lacked something essential.

Perhaps god lacked nothing essential if creation merely resulted from a want of something. This might be effective, but its logical conclusion is that, as far as god is concerned, this universe is rendered trivial and unessential - even irrelevant. A child' s ant farm would have more purpose and use.

Theists might also challenge premise 5 and argue that the creation of the universe was not deliberate but instead accidental. If an accidental creation is compatible with a perfect god, this argument would render the existence of the universe even more trivial than the previous argument. Because perfection is incompatible with error, any being that can do something accidentally is unlikely to be perfect.

Originally posted by Ytaker
I'm clearing this mess up once and for all. God cannot do everything. Just as a mathematician cannot work out that 2+2=5, no matter how good, he cannot make a mistake. Love requires free will. If you do not have free will, you cannot choose to love. Humans always have a choice to not love, because otherwise they cannot love. God is love, and love wants more love. He wants children who love him. So, he creates Satan so that we can love.

men can demand to be worshipped.

and damnstraight I should be worshipped! 😠

you should be a mullah!

but I am just a simple prophet of the 12 foot long eclair

"I don't like your God, he scares me" - Bullet Proof

Originally posted by yerssot
your god is clearly not all powerful then if he can't do that ... then he is bound by rules... that means that the one (person or thing or whatever) that made the rules is higher than him and thus, that first god is unworthy of worshipping

I'm curious how you think... God is limited because of his perfection. Nobody made the rules. God cannot create a stronger being because that would be an imperfection in his power. He cannot do anything that is not perfect. Like a mathamatician, the best ever, who works out triadric equations in his head, cannot work out that 2+2=5. Otherwise he would be less.

but a mathematicion doesn't claim that he is perfect and all powerful that god does ... and apperently now he's bound by rules! if you're bound by rules you are NOT all powerful
you are that when you can rise above rules

Originally posted by Storm
Two qualities often attributed to God are perfection and being the 'creator' of the universe (if not more). Are these qualities compatible or incompatible?

[list][*] 1. God is perfect. (premise)
[*] 2. God deliberately created the universe. (premise)
[*] 3. Perfection entails the lack of needs or wants. (premise)
[*] 4. Being perfect, god does not now nor ever has nor ever will have any needs or wants. (from 1, 3)
[*] 5. Deliberate creation entails an effort to satisfy some need or want. (premise)
[*] 6. Being a creator, god at one time had some need or want. (from 2, 5)
[*] 7. It is impossible to have some need or want and also to never have any need or want.
[*] 8. Conclusion: god, if it exists, is either not perfect or has not created anything. (from 4, 6)
[/list]
If god is perfect, then god can' t have any needs or wants, hence, god wouldn' t bother creating something. If god deliberately creates something, it must be because of some need or want even if it is as simple as curiosity.

Theists may reject premise 3 - the idea that perfection means not having any needs or wants. One argument is that god was so full of love that it wanted to share its love with other and thus created other beings - but this example of a want does not give a reason why the premise is wrong, it simply denies it.

Another argument against premise 3 is that perfection is compatible with having needs or wants. I just don' t see any merit to this, as it goes against the basic understanding of what 'perfect' means: lacking nothing essential to the whole. If god needed something, then god lacked something essential.

Perhaps god lacked nothing essential if creation merely resulted from a want of something. This might be effective, but its logical conclusion is that, as far as god is concerned, this universe is rendered trivial and unessential - even irrelevant. A child' s ant farm would have more purpose and use.

Theists might also challenge premise 5 and argue that the creation of the universe was not deliberate but instead accidental. If an accidental creation is compatible with a perfect god, this argument would render the existence of the universe even more trivial than the previous argument. Because perfection is incompatible with error, any being that can do something accidentally is unlikely to be perfect.

1. Yes.
2. Aye, matey.
3. No, Perfection entails perfection. Andrew Wiles was a perfect mathematician, but he wanted something out of his perfection. Passion isn't bad. Love is perfection. Love wants more. Love is God. Being perfect doesn't mean that you don't want results.
4. He wants results. He gets them.
5. Yes- a want for some outside proof of it, and to improve perfection. This seems impossible, but it just means that infinity is a bit longer. No problem. Infinity plus one is still infinity.
6. You like repeating yourself, don't you?
7. Logically, three golden stars.
8. Nope.

Originally posted by Arachnoidfreak
The Garden of Eden wasn't a rebellion, it was stupidity on God's part. What ass puts something forbidden in plain reach of someone who isn't supposed to have it? It's like leaving a razor on the floor when you have a toddler.

If God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the Forbidden Tree of Knowledge, then he should not have made it so they could get at it. If us "mere humans" can figure that out, I'm sure an all-knowing God would have thought of the same.

Dude, if u could be bothered, find a Bible and look in the OT, Genesis, chpt 2, verse 15-18. God told man not to eat the fruit and yet they did. Downfall on our part for being gulible and believing Satan.

Morningstar> Why did God create Adam and Eve so gullible, they’d fall for Satan’s ploy first time he tempts them? Bad design if I EVER heard of one.

One thing is creating humans with free will. Another is making them naively gullible... And then go out to lunch!

I think when you're a few days old it's precocious to even be able to speak! Anyway, a proper solution to that would have been to debilitate Satan ✅