i dunno, if someone challenged me to a fight in a pub, and i grabbed him by the throat and started throttling him, that just seems a bit more macarbe than a straight out fist fight.....the same as the lightning is more a form of torture than just disabling someone....it's just how it's always struck certain people, including myself, on a gut level, without really thinking about it.....i don't know how to debate it (or why really), it's just always seemed that way to me
seagrave out....
first off... this is star wars, this isn't a pub fight
secondly... Luke didn't grab him by the throat with the intention to kill/hurt him, he wanted to get them to split. Why did he pick choke instead of push? the same reason he wears dark clothes and having a shot in the battle with Vader where his face is half in the shadows: to show his struggle with the dark side
and as third point... with the lightning... you're implying Yoda made the same mistake too? the all wise and almost perfect jedi?
quote:
first off... this is star wars, this isn't a pub fight
yerssot
my point was that was my gut level reaction to it, without thinking, so to put it in an everyday context.
quote:
secondly... Luke didn't grab him by the throat with the intention to kill/hurt him, he wanted to get them to split. Why did he pick choke instead of push? the same reason he wears dark clothes and having a shot in the battle with Vader where his face is half in the shadows: to show his struggle with the dark side
yerssot
that's what i said
quote:
and as third point... with the lightning... you're implying Yoda made the same mistake too? the all wise and almost perfect jedi?
yerssot
as pvs said, yoda didn't produce...."for defense, never attack'
and dammit, i said "seagrave out"
😉
i'm bowing out of this one....
Originally posted by yerssot
why try again? he aimed it back at Dooku didn't he?
he knew dooku could block it, as he easily did...however surprised he looked that yoda could deflect it.
the reason i brought the lightning up is the question of whether or not its a darkside technique, not whether deflecting it towrard the attacker is evil.
if it's pure about a jedi using it for defense... shouldn't Yoda have absorbed the first attack too? and STRICTLY defensive, they can't kill anyone then...
like said a few times... it's not a darkside technique as there is NO lightside/darkside when it comes to using the force! it's all about the person and his intentions!
erm... remind me...what's the topic again?
Originally posted by yerssot
if it's pure about a jedi using it for defense... shouldn't Yoda have absorbed the first attack too? and STRICTLY defensive, they can't kill anyone then...like said a few times... it's not a darkside technique as there is NO lightside/darkside when it comes to using the force! it's all about the person and his intentions!
erm... remind me...what's the topic again?
dude, dooku attacked, thus the fine line between defense and attack was crossed. of coarse they can kill when the situation calls for it, as has been demonstrated.
and as for as the philosophy on ALL force techniques being ok to use, where is the official explanation for that?
the topic? i forgot 😛
Originally posted by yerssot
so what's the use of defense/attack that if the attack is set you can do what you want?and what DC said
i struggle with this myself, but the fact seems to be, ridiculous as it sounds, a jedi uses any means necessary when that line is crossed. thus yoda deflecting the lightning back at dooku, and obiwan force pushing droids.
Originally posted by PVS
he knew dooku could block it, as he easily did...however surprised he looked that yoda could deflect it.the reason i brought the lightning up is the question of whether or not its a darkside technique, not whether deflecting it towrard the attacker is evil.
He knew Dooku could deflect it??? That's INSANE posting! You reckon he wasn't trying to fight Dooku? That when he swing his sabre at him it was ok because he knew DOoku would block it every time??
That was a fight, not a garden party! Your objective in a fight is to pout the other guy down as fast as possible. The reason Yoda did not zap Dooku with the reflected Force Lightning was that he couldn't- as Dooku so succicntly summed up a few moments later.
It's not impossible that only Hatred can cause Force Lightning, but we can only speculate. Indeed, we have never seen a Light Sided Jedi do it, but that's not necessarily definitive. I have no problem thinking they cannot do it, though.
As for the choke... it's a non-lethal way of restraining someone. Modern day police are trained in chokeholds to restrain someone without having to cause serious injury; using the Force for that does not strike me as Dark Side.
What is this extreme simplicity in people's views of Luke being tested by the Dark Side? You think he was so stupid that he was accidentally using the 'evil powers', or something? Doesn't Anakin's story show you that the road to evil is rather more subtle than that?
I think that anybody can use any Force attacks, and what Yoda meant by the line "for defense, never for attack" is meaning that they wield the Force as their ally, not their gift. They use the Force for all means, but they don't use it for evil intentions. Attack is generally considered evil, but if you notice, no Jedi ever starts the conflict in any of the fights in the movies, so they are in fact the ones that are defending themselves:
Qui-Gon vs Darth Maul---Darth Maul attacks first
Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul---Darth Maul lights his lightsaber first and makes the first move.
Obi-Wan/Anakin vs Dooku---hell, Dooku started a WAR.
Yoda vs Dooku---Dooku shoots out the lightning before Yoda does ANYTHING attack-wise.
Obi-Wan vs Vader---Vader has his lightsaber already lit.
Luke vs Vader---Vader has his already lit.
Luke vs Vader ROTJ---Granted, Luke takes the first swing of the battle, but not at Vader. He took the swing at the guy who created all the mess in the "star wars" in general, so he started it from the beginning.
The guards in Jabba's palace could have just let him go by, but they showed that they will use a means of attack if need be. Luke simply didn't go into a huge battle with them, he took it easy. If the guards had let him go, he wouldn't have used that attack. That's why he doesn't kill everyone in Jabba's palace in order to get to Jabba. Something that someone EVIL would do.
i wouldnt call it INSANE ush, perhaps incorrect.
anyway, the arguement i was stating was that yoda did not use force lightning simply by deflecting it. and yes, why should yoda care whether or not it hits dooku right between the eyes, the line had already been crossed.
"It;s not impossible that only Hatred can cause Force Lightning, but we can only speculate. Indeed, we have never seen a Light Sided Jedi do it, but that;s not necessarily definitive. I have no problem thinking they canot do it, though."
now, in your statement ush, you went from "its impossible that only Hatred can cause Force Lightning" to "i have no problem thinking they (the jedi) cannot do it"
does that mean you think that a jedi not using force lightning might simply be a matter of etiquite? well, i must argue that such a move is motivated by hate.
"only now in the end do you understand...."
(as palps zaps the living crap out of luke, with nothing but hate in his eyes)
"....your feeble skills are no match for the power of the dark side."
that tells me that the dark side presents its own powers, not just an upgrade of already existant jedi powers...
EDIT> good observation NoFate, and remember luke's test at the cave in ESB...he ignited his saber first...and at that point i reckon, he had already failed the test.