Joining the Force

I watched the ESB DVD with commentary yesterday, and Gl made an interesting comment about the Jedi Disappearing trick that many of us have kept occupied for some time now. Why didn't Qui-Gon disappear, did Anakin disappear when he died, how come that we hear Qui-Gon's voice in AOTC, what's this with "when you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"? Etc. etc.

Now GL said something interesting about the disappearing trick. He said that it had to do with Jedi 'voluntarily joining the Force" and that it would all be explained in the first three films. I found that interesting becuase I can't really see where that has been explained so far. And volutarily joiing the Force... I've only seen OB1 do that. Qui-Gon was killed, even to his own surprise. Nothing voluntary there. Yoda died of old age ("strong am I with the Force, but not that strong" - he clearly was faced with death he couldn't stop) and Anakin also died of his injuries...

So now I'm even more confused.

yoda held on waiting for luke, to say his last words,
then dissapeared. he had plenty of time to sit alone and ponder
his own death, and he chose to be OWTF...why? i think him and
kenbobi were on the DS2 during the final confrontation. or else,
why would yoda bother doing the trick? why did he not just die
like everyone else?

now QUIGON... quigon did not die instantly, he had time to lay and think.
perhaps during that time, he prepared himself? remember, quigon
is the more open minded of the jedi, and has unconditional faith
in the will of the force. i think because of this, he was able to become
OWTF. as far as disappearing, we have not seen quigon's physical ghost
as of yet, just his voice. perhaps one must vanish to maintain physical form?

Anakin didn't actualy die. He was transformed. When he turned to the dark side he no longer accepted the name Anakin. He was allready Vader when he fell into the lava. Yoda had time to accept his fate and join the Force. Qwi-Gon was suprised by his fate but I feel he eventually joined the force some how. In the end of ROTJ Vader/Anakin new he was dieing and joined the force. Obi-Wan accepted death, knew it was comming and joined the force.

Originally posted by PVS
yoda held on waiting for luke, to say his last words,
then dissapeared. he had plenty of time to sit alone and ponder
his own death, and he chose to be OWTF...why? i think him and
kenbobi were on the DS2 during the final confrontation. or else,
why would yoda bother doing the trick? why did he not just die
like everyone else?

now QUIGON... quigon did not die instantly, he had time to lay and think.
perhaps during that time, he prepared himself? remember, quigon
is the more open minded of the jedi, and has unconditional faith
in the will of the force. i think because of this, he was able to become
OWTF. as far as disappearing, we have not seen quigon's physical ghost
as of yet, just his voice. perhaps one must vanish to maintain physical form?

OMG!!! You're beginning to sound like GL!!

Qui Gon did NOT voluntarily die... He didn't even disappear.

Yoda did not voluntarily die... he may have held off death voluntarily (although that is pure speculation) but he didn't die voluntarily.

And Anakin transformed???? Why don't we see it then?

Only OB1 fits that description. Yoda... maybe.

We never saw Vader after he died, we only saw the suit burning he may not have been in the suit.

when Vader died at the end of ROTJ he was actually Anakin again. He said "Help me take this mask off" Luke said "No you will Die" Anakin said "Nothing can stop that now". I think at that point he voluntarily died.

As to the TRANSFORMATION from Anaki to Vader, he turned back to the good side in the end which proves that he didn't die in the first place. There was no reserection of Anakin. He was allways alive just turned evil.

I believe we will see this transformation in Episode 3.

Vader died because of his injuries and because of Palpy's lightning... that was not voluntarily.
If taht is the case all the Jedi that died in AOTC died voluntarily for the good cause. Yet the disappearing trick is something special.

I thought you were talking about the injuries from the lava pit.... My bad.

Originally posted by jedijunky1138
I thought you were talking about the injuries from the lava pit.... My bad.

in agree with whoever said qui-gon having time to think before he died,and making peace or whatever or volunteering to the force,as for yoda... could it be possible he forseen his death and made peace before hand?

This new phrasing Lucas has that queeq pointed out had me thinking to. I think its more simple than we're making it. I've always thought it had to do with "prep" time as queeq also said earlier. But now I think its simple, when they die, it's probably compared to that whole light in a tunnel cliche we all know of. They just choose not to go. They refuse to go and, instead, remain "earth" bound (in the corporeal plain of existence). I think the "voluntarilly joining the force" refers to all the Jedi who didn't appear (either in voice or appearance). All the other Jedi volutarilly join the force, probably because they are okay with it. Sort of how there are always stories of ghosts hanging around because of "unfinished business". Same idea no doubt applies here. Qui-gon, stubborn as he is, probably refused to join the Force, because he was so interested in Anakin and his being the Chosen One. Jinn no doubt refused to join the Force to watch over Anakin. Obi-wan knew he needed to watch over Luke so he would then refuse to join the Force, perhaps Qui-gon teaches this to him in 3, perhaps not, I hear Liam's not in it. But they're supposed to explain it somehow. Then Yoda would refuse to join the Force immediately after death because he too wanted to watch over Luke and make sure he makes it through his enevitable duel. They don't voluntarily join the Force because they need to see something through in the physical world.

Originally posted by queeq
OMG!!! You're beginning to sound like GL!!

Qui Gon did NOT voluntarily die... He didn't even disappear.

Yoda did not voluntarily die... he may have held off death voluntarily (although that is pure speculation) but he didn't die voluntarily.

And Anakin transformed???? Why don't we see it then?

Only OB1 fits that description. Yoda... maybe.

queeq, a very important point you are missing, is that its stated
that the jedi volunatily give themselve to the force
>>>but who ever stated that you have to volunarily die?

quigon, yoda, anakin, kenobi knew they were going to die, so the gave themselves to the force. it doesnt matter HOW they die. and who says kenobi
killed himself? perhaps he was just able to do the trick very quick.
"if you strike me down" not "if you TRY to strike me down"
but thats beside the point...

As for Anakin at the end or ROTJ, I believe he appears, like Yoda and Obi-wan, to basically just show Luke (and the audience) that everything is okay. Perhaps also to show the audience that Anakin has in fact restored balance to the Force and returned to the light officially, because he stands with Obi-wan and Yoda and they're all smiling.

prep time.....i like that idea,of the whole unfinished business,all of it makes very good sense,awesome post meph!!!!!

sad to say it but we probably already figured out this mystery and just don't know it yet. from some of the commentaries i heard on the dvds its sounds like everyone in these forums are on the right track.

Originally posted by mephistodesigns
This new phrasing Lucas has that queeq pointed out had me thinking to. I think its more simple than we're making it. I've always thought it had to do with "prep" time as queeq also said earlier. But now I think its simple, when they die, it's probably compared to that whole light in a tunnel cliche we all know of. They just choose not to go. They refuse to go and, instead, remain "earth" bound (in the corporeal plain of existence). I think the "voluntarilly joining the force" refers to all the Jedi who didn't appear (either in voice or appearance). All the other Jedi volutarilly join the force, probably because they are okay with it. Sort of how there are always stories of ghosts hanging around because of "unfinished business". Same idea no doubt applies here. Qui-gon, stubborn as he is, probably refused to join the Force, because he was so interested in Anakin and his being the Chosen One. Jinn no doubt refused to join the Force to watch over Anakin. Obi-wan knew he needed to watch over Luke so he would then refuse to join the Force, perhaps Qui-gon teaches this to him in 3, perhaps not, I hear Liam's not in it. But they're supposed to explain it somehow. Then Yoda would refuse to join the Force immediately after death because he too wanted to watch over Luke and make sure he makes it through his enevitable duel. They don't voluntarily join the Force because they need to see something through in the physical world.

The important point is that the lingering-after-death thing is NEW- it's not happened before.

GL's just being loose-toungued, queeq. The whole thing happens around the rough point of death, that's the important deal. Obi-Wan was killed by Vader, or wasn't and siappeared first... small issue.

Qui-Gon, however, THAT is a pain.

If anyone's watched Empire of Dreams they'll see the original take of Obi Wan's downfall, in which he is sliced in half. Unfortunately, it looks terrible, which is why the "Ghost" thing was created. George never expected anyone to give a damn about stupid stuff like disappearing Jedi, so now he's covering his ass with a terrible excuse. People always whine about Lucas killing Star Wars, but I think it's the fans' badgering to seal up arbirtrary loose ends(instead of discussing them intelligently here) that causes Lucas to lose focus and contradict himself("I never had any intention of making an episode 7, 8, or 9..."😉

GL said that anakin got to maintain his original being because he was already a jedi when he was young that's what I heard.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The important point is that the lingering-after-death thing is NEW- it's not happened before.

GL's just being loose-toungued, queeq. The whole thing happens around the rough point of death, that's the important deal. Obi-Wan was killed by Vader, or wasn't and siappeared first... small issue.

Qui-Gon, however, THAT is a pain.

Not only Qui-Gon. What about all the JEdi taht died of old age and other natural causes in the thousands of years they've been in existence. I bet many Jedi died peacefully and yet, the disappearing trick is new.

I know Gl is loose-tongued, but that's what's so interesting.Personally, after AOTC I thought GL was never really going to explain it. Just use a McGuffin and get it done with. But this... this brings in a different perspective that obviously he's been playing with in his mind for a while. He sounded pretty concret about his point about disappearing.

(BTW Ush, I wholeheartedly agree with your saying that the commentray track on ESB was most outstanding... the best so far of all five DVD's. Kershner rules!)