Originally posted by FeceMan
I believe that the Bible says God did it for His own glory, and He was probably punishing the Egyptians for enslaving His chosen people.
Pharoah was willing to let the Israelites go free. It was God who forced Pharoah to keep the Israelites in slavery.
Why should Pharoah be blamed for doing what God made him do? Why should the Egyptian people be punished for what God was going to do anyway?
Why should Pharoah be blamed for doing what God made him do?
So he's NOT an all forgiving God??
I'm confused, Is he or is he not all forgiving?
Forgiveness does not come without a price. There is a difference between holding a grudge and allowing someome to face the consequences of his or her actions.
How do you define Homosexual? As someone who engages in sexual activity with some one of their own sex exclusively? Does that have to involve anything else though? Should the term Homosexual be extended only to those who have no choice or those that do. This probaly depends on whether genetic presdisposition to homosexuality is possible. There are those im sure who have relations with those of the same sex due to environment - the mind is shaped by experiences from birth. However, there is still research ongoing as to whether genetic predisposition occurs. The trouble everyone has when it comes down to predisposition is why on earth would such a thing occur when it does not help the Human Race? Simple. Because like it or not if it is a genetic predisposition it means it is an abnormality - a mistake. Something not meant to be, a genetic defect when looking at it from the point of view of the species as a whole. Due to the outstanding propagation of our species however, this is not an issue. Instead of being a "mistake" its classification changes into a "difference", which i think is fine and groovy and should be that way. My point is many people dont like to think about it as genetic because it somehow means that it is a defect. It is only so depending on the circumstances. Of course this only true in itself if the genetic theory is proved correct. Whatever the outcome i dont think it matters. From a biblical perspective, homosexuality is condemmned, but by St. Paul who was a man with his own failings as a human. He also preached about women being silent in church and shutting up and doing as they're told, and these messages are hardly touted in public by the right winged super conservative christians. Life is such that it is not important that every single member of our species is hetrosexual that reproduces and even if it was and whether it is a choice or not people have a right to be who they are and that includes being gay. We are human and we have made rights for ourselves and they need to be respected.
MHO
Peace
Why the hell do i always submit an essay? hehe
As far as I know, there is nothing in the bible apart from St. Paul condemning homosexuality and as i said he was a man with his own views and failings. Lets not forget that in that society it was socially acceptable to be against gays. I believe God to be all loving and all forgiving, but i dont see how that enters in to it when i dont believe homosexuality to be a sin...
There are those im sure who have relations with those of the same sex due to environment - the mind is shaped by experiences from birth.
Yes, but the point is that this has been PROVEN not to play a dominant role in sexual orientation.
As far as I know, there is nothing in the bible apart from St. Paul condemning homosexuality and as i said he was a man with his own views and failings.
And I quote: "Think harder, Homer." Take a look in that one book with all the rules and regulations and such...ah, yes, Leviticus.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Well, I'll be honest. I'm not really concerend or interested in what made you a Christian. But I don't think that you were born that way. You became christian. Maybe that is why so many christians and ignorant people believe that gays became gay, rather than being born that way. And remember, I'm not addressing you specifically, you post just made me think.Interesed is a tough term to live up to, whether I am or not. Because I'm not even really interested in what make a gay man gay. I have my opinions(as backed by scientific facts and my own experiences) as to why I'm gay. I'm concerned with my rights to live as I see fit, without causing harm to anyone. But interested, probally not. But since we've been having a discussion where gay people are made to explain why they are gay, I thought it would be nice to get a christian to explain themselves.
All that aside, if you can live your life as a christian and in no way effect my life, then you have my vote. Because I in no way intend to interfere with your right to worship (your) god.
I didnt think you would be interested in my Christian values 😛
and u know what? Truthfully, i didnt have any idea whatsoever that u were gay 😮 and it doesnt effect me at all. I dont think of u any differently *shrugs*
"Morningstar> Did you hear about the new study that shows children of lesbian parents are doing just as well as children of heterosexuals?
Here, from New Scientist http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996670 "
That was actually a strangely interesting article. 🙂 but as i said, that was my opinion before i was Christian and what i thought on homosexuality. Tho i am wiser due to that article 😉 😛
Originally posted by FeceMan
Because Pharaoh had already "done wrong" to the Israelites.
Despite his previous treatment of the Israelites, Pharoah was willing to make things right by setting the Israelites free. God would not allow Pharoah to do this. How can Pharoah be punished for doing what God made him do? Why should the Egyptian people be punished for something that God did?
Originally posted by FeceMan
And I quote: "Think harder, Homer." Take a look in that one book with all the rules and regulations and such...ah, yes, Leviticus.
Chapter 20:25 clears up what it means by "abomination" by writing "you shall not bring abomination on yourself by bird or by anything with which the ground teems, which I have set apart for you to hold unclean." Evidently, "abomination" is just another word for "unclean" and denotes a violation of Israelite purity rules of the time. Further, when the Hebrew passages were translated to Greek, they used the words for "uncleanness" and "impurity" rather than stronger words meaning "sin" or a violation of law. Clearly, the only interpretation is that Leviticus forbids male-male sex because of cultural and religious implications, not because of the morality of such acts.
Clearly, anti-gay Bible-quoters like to skip over the parts that they don't care for. But, let's put Leviticus in perspective. These quotes come from a part of the Bible referred to as "The Holiness Code." This list of laws and punishments spells out what Israel must do to remain unique from the Gentiles and therefore, "holy." The chapter (18) starts out "You shall not do as they do in the land of Egypt..." It goes on to list all the things that the Canaanites did that Israelites should not mimic in order to remain unique. It is not likely that each of these things is considered "wrong" in itself, but should be avoided since it is associated with pagan activities.
The Bible mentions homosexuality only in passing, yet some people like to think it is a condemnation. But the Bible spends much more time endorsing slavery, and encouraging those who have felt temptation to cut off their hands or gouge out their eyes. Those same people are frequently themselves divorced, although Jesus' teachings literally condemn it, and most folks don't mind if women speak in church or teach Sunday school, even though the Bible clearly forbids that.
Leviticus also says eating shellfish is an abonimation...
The Bible mentions homosexuality only in passing, yet some people like to think it is a condemnation. But the Bible spends much more time endorsing slavery, and encouraging those who have felt temptation to cut off their hands or gouge out their eyes.
I always love the n00b argument that the Bible promotes slavery. I'm also fairly certain that the cutting off of one's body parts is a hyperbole used to get the point across--though I'm uncertain as to what this has to do with homosexuality.
Those same people are frequently themselves divorced, although Jesus' teachings literally condemn it, and most folks don't mind if women speak in church or teach Sunday school, even though the Bible clearly forbids that.
Yes, the Bible condemns divorce unless the wife is an adulteress...although I think exceptions can be made for abusive spouses. The women silent in church bit has more to do with the culture at the time where women didn't have the rights they do today.
Leviticus 5: 5-6 "'When anyone is guilty in any of these ways, he must confess in what way he has sinned and, as a penalty for the sin he has committed, he must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin."
Leviticus 18: 2-5 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'I am the LORD your God. You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD."
Leviticus 18: 22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
Leviticus 18: "'Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things..."
Romans 1:24-28 "Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."
I believe the Bible speaks for itself on the issue of homosexuality.
if i had three hands i still wouldnt be able to count how many times i've heard gay ppl say, "why would i CHOOSE to live a life like this" perhaps im reading too much into it but to me that signifies that they acknowledge that they're doing something wrong
so until scientists say yes there is a gene, ill say its a matter of choice
if i had three hands i still wouldnt be able to count how many times i've heard gay ppl say, "why would i CHOOSE to live a life like this" perhaps im reading too much into it but to me that signifies that they acknowledge that they're doing something wrongso until scientists say yes there is a gene, ill say its a matter of choice
Originally posted by manjaro
if i had three hands i still wouldnt be able to count how many times i've heard gay ppl say, "why would i CHOOSE to live a life like this" perhaps im reading too much into it but to me that signifies that they acknowledge that they're doing something wrongso until scientists say yes there is a gene, ill say its a matter of choice
Read a few pages back, and you will see that Adam Poe posted an article that has scientists stating that there is no one gay gene...but that there are multiple genes that determine someone's sexuality.
Feceman> Why did God let the Egyptians enslave the Israelis in the first place? Were they so weak they let themselves be overrun?
And why not just use the teleport_routine and a quick little mind-sweep? Hey, according to Christians God can flood the Earth, call down meteors and do miracles (WHEN he so pleases, and never when some 3rd world kid gets his legs blown off when walking on a landmine), but not take the Israelis out of Egypt without a blood-bath?
Really…
“There is a difference between holding a grudge and allowing someome to face the consequences of his or her actions.”
Go read Exodus, will you?
Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
See, God hardens Pharaohs heart, that “he shall not let the people go.” So, God makes sure he HAS to kill the Egyptian first-borns.
(On the way back to Egypt God seeks to even kill Moses because his son wasn’t circumcised. Blood-thirsty divinity we’re dealing with here. But hey, Moses came from an incestuous marriage, God approves of odd things, eh?).
Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Well, again God hardens the Pharaos heart. He’s REALLY set on slaughter. And a third time. God makes SURE Pharaoh will NOT let the Israelis go.
SO… as Adam_Poe asked: Why blame the Pharaoh for something GOD made him do?