Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If he is played in the best way possible, it doesn't matter if he's black.You honestly think Kenneth Branagh didn't audition white guys? There are better white guys to play Peter Parker than Tobey Maguire, but you can't audition everyone and it's not like they can leave out Heimdall, nor will he be a starring role. If he has a cumulative screentime of over ten minutes, if that, I'll be impressed.
Are you this vehement about say, Heath Ledger playing the Joker? He's not American.
Do you ever think: "What, you couldn't an American actor?". No, and why not? Because he played it amazingly. If Heath Ledger was black, that role would be no less brilliant.
-AC
When the god nicknamed "The White God" is black, something is really amiss. They're not staying true to any sort of source-material here. Except something Hudlin might potentially have whipped up.
As a bi-racial person myself, I'm not really offended or anything when people say Heimdall should be white. In fact, as a dedicated fan to Thor (who's my favorite superhero), essentially every Asgardian should be white if we want to stay true to the source material. I mean, they're Norse gods, worshiped by Germanic and Scandinavians tribes and cultures.
That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to see Asgardians of other races and skin tones shown in the movie (kinda like Themyscria has women of various races and skin tones on the island), but any named or important character in the Thor universe who were white should remain white. I just think trying to be politically correct by including a "token black" character purely for the sake of trying to draw more viewers and not be accused of being "too white" is a bad mistake. If this actor signed to play Heimdall does a good job, then great, but seeing as how Heimdall probably won't have much lines or doing anything aside from standing guard at Bifrost, it does seem odd
I would agree that casting a black character to play Heimdall seems weird here, given that he's not likely to see much face time on screen.
I get both arguments that have been presented here, and as a black person, I'm ambivalent concerning each. Casting Thor as a black person would definitely be odd, even if the actor were the most qualified to play the part. However, I couldn't go along with some Joe Schmoe playing the part just so the director could say, "Hey, he wasn't nearly the best guy for the job, but at least we kept consistent with the comic." Having both would ruin the experience for me if I were to see it at the movies.
Thinking aloud, I wish there were some concrete system in place to determine whether the comic or acting quality should take precedence. Maybe take the role in question into account or something. With that, again, Heimdall--as a presumably bit player-- would be cast as white since the comic would be most important in his case. Again, I damn sure don't have the answers, but just my $.02.
Nobody has issue with a black man doing the voice of Darth Vader.
So many said: "Michael Clarke Duncan doesn't sound like The Kingpin! He's black! The Kingpin had an epic voice in the cartoons!", without knowing that a black guy did his voice in the cartoons.
I honestly don't get Kris's argument regarding tying skin tone to character.
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
It does matter. Ledger's part would have been less brilliant, since his character would have been off. I would have preferred a significantly less skilled white actor to play Heimdall. Just like I would not want a much more skilled black actor to play Peter Parker. It has nothing to do with racism, but staying true to the character. The physical aspects of a character is incredibly basic and should be set straight for auditions. They couldn't cast a really fat guy to play Heimdall either, just like a white Power Fist or a really buff Peter Parker would work out.When the god nicknamed "The White God" is black, something is really amiss. They're not staying true to any sort of source-material here. Except something Hudlin might potentially have whipped up.
How would his character be off? What about having dark skin would have made his role less brilliant, considering he's wearing white facepaint?
The character is deeper than the skin colour. Stan Lee himself said that one of the reasons he gave Spidey a full mask was so that any kid could imagine he was Spidey. Any kid of any race. He IS white, but he could very easily not have been if he was created in a more racially tolerant age.
As for your fat guy remark, cast Volstagg. Now. Go. You, with your casting expertise, cast Volstagg. Remember, needs to look exactly like him and be a good actor. Can't leave him out, either, as he's essential.
While you're at it, cast The Kingpin, too. Let's see if you know any better way to cast impossibly sized characters.
Also, how do you know they're not staying true to ANY source material? Was Iron Man shit because Jarvis was a computer?
If anything, you should be more concerned about the casting of Thor; I know I am. The dude has no experience, and on top of that, he tried for the part once and got turned away. He got accepted on his second try.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
How would his character be off? What about having dark skin would have made his role less brilliant, considering he's wearing white facepaint?The character is deeper than the skin colour. Stan Lee himself said that one of the reasons he gave Spidey a full mask was so that any kid could imagine he was Spidey. Any kid of any race. He IS white, but he could very easily not have been if he was created in a more racially tolerant age.
As for your fat guy remark, cast Volstagg. Now. Go. You, with your casting expertise, cast Volstagg. Remember, needs to look exactly like him and be a good actor. Can't leave him out, either, as he's essential.
While you're at it, cast The Kingpin, too. Let's see if you know any better way to cast impossibly sized characters.
Also, how do you know they're not staying true to ANY source material? Was Iron Man shit because Jarvis was a computer?
-AC
Look exactly like Volstagg? Not really difficult, they have fatsuits now that can make any guy look huge. You do not actually need a fatguy to play a fatguy. Casting Volstagg is the easiest thing in the world, you just need a white guy with a beard. Even that can be fixed though and added on, easy as hell. This applies to kingpin as well, there's no problem doing to him what they did to the guy who played The Blob. Daredevil is an annoying movie though, since Michael Duncan was -the only- skilled actor in that movie. He was a great actor, but it still felt out of place. Considering their liberties with a lot of characters, that did not make much of a difference. As far as I'm concerned, they've made some decent casts for the rest of the Thor movie.
Making Heimdall black is not staying true to any source-material. That's the beauty of strawman arguments though, you can reply to claims I never made. This seems to be your specialty. I never claimed that this would ruin the movie, I claimed that it was a shit cast, which it still is. Not making all the named Æsir white is an awful decision.
Okay, Joker does not make a difference since he is a masked character. We barely get to see his skin colour, so it makes little difference. Constantly masked characters can be whatever skin-colour as long as its not a central point in their story. It's different with the Æsir.
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
And if Spider-man had been in mask the entire comic, I'm sure it would not have made a difference if he had been black or asian. After all, it would not have been noticeable. An entirely different ballgame. Unfortunately there was a lot of Peter Parker in that movie and Parker's white. The black guy in Asgard sticks out, even more so when he's the white god. It actually makes a difference and it's not that difficult to get it right.Look exactly like Volstagg? Not really difficult, they have fatsuits now that can make any guy look huge. You do not actually need a fatguy to play a fatguy. Casting Volstagg is the easiest thing in the world, you just need a white guy with a beard. Even that can be fixed though and added on, easy as hell. This applies to kingpin as well, there's no problem doing to him what they did to the guy who played The Blob. Daredevil is an annoying movie though, since Michael Duncan was -the only- skilled actor in that movie. He was a great actor, but it still felt out of place. Considering their liberties with a lot of characters, that did not make much of a difference. As far as I'm concerned, they've made some decent casts for the rest of the Thor movie.
Making Heimdall black is not staying true to any source-material. That's the beauty of strawman arguments though, you can reply to claims I never made. This seems to be your specialty. I never claimed that this would ruin the movie, I claimed that it was a shit cast, which it still is. Not making all the named Æsir white is an awful decision.
Okay, Joker does not make a difference since he is a masked character. We barely get to see his skin colour, so it makes little difference. Constantly masked characters can be whatever skin-colour as long as its not a central point in their story. It's different with the Æsir.
You do realise they're not making Volstagg fat, right? They're just giving him a bit of a gut.
Also, I didn't ask what effects would make them look good. I asked who you'd cast. Evidently it's not as easy as you said since they're not putting Volstagg in a giant fat suit.
I suppose that on the subject of Heimdall we'll agree to disagree. I found the casting choice a bit odd too, but where as I don't see it as an issue, you do.
-AC
Black Panther is African, though. His mythos is African.
I don't particularly remember anyone saying, in a comic, "Asgard is whites only.". If they did, I stand corrected.
Blade, for example, is not a "black" character. He is a half-vampire that became so because his mother just happened to get bitten by a vampire. Blade could have been a white man, just like Spider-Man could have been any other race.
Black Panther couldn't have been.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Black Panther is African, though. His mythos is African.I don't particularly remember anyone saying, in a comic, "Asgard is whites only.". If they did, I stand corrected.
Blade, for example, is not a "black" character. He is a half-vampire that became so because his mother just happened to get bitten by a vampire. Blade could have been a white man, just like Spider-Man could have been any other race.
Black Panther couldn't have been.
-AC
Heimdall, Thor and all the other Æsir are Scandinavian and their mythos is thus Scandinavian. I think the reason why Kris (and me for that matter) feel so strongly about this issue is because we are both Norwegian. Even though this is just Marvel it is still a representation of our cultural heritage and we want it to be portrayed as accurately as possible.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You do realise they're not making Volstagg fat, right? They're just giving him a bit of a gut.Also, I didn't ask what effects would make them look good. I asked who you'd cast. Evidently it's not as easy as you said since they're not putting Volstagg in a giant fat suit.
I suppose that on the subject of Heimdall we'll agree to disagree. I found the casting choice a bit odd too, but where as I don't see it as an issue, you do.
-AC
Really now? Well that's awfully disappointing as well. Volstagg has quite a bit of backstory to his fatness. But Fat and chubby are not counters as much as black and white. Though more "pinkish" and "brown" but still. It's a different issue because they're following a character's traits to a lesser extent rather than doing something in the other direction, if you catch my drift.
Well, nationality does not necessarily apply to the gods in the same sense. But all Æsir are white and Heimdall is one of them. Just like all Africans would be black.
Casting Volstagg is easy because they only need to add a fatsuit. The fact that chose not to do so doesn't say anything how difficult he was to cast. It simply means that they did not opt to take a route which would have gotten his physical characteristics right. Which is odd.
We agree to disagree.
Originally posted by AverageSavage
Heimdall, Thor and all the other Æsir are Scandinavian and their mythos is thus Scandinavian. I think the reason why Kris (and me for that matter) feel so strongly about this issue is because we are both Norwegian. Even though this is just Marvel it is still a representation of our cultural heritage and we want it to be portrayed as accurately as possible.
You know, I believe the thinking on this is backward. Just because the Gods of Asgard appeared to men in Scandinavia, does that mean they look like them? It was Men who styled their look and their culture from the Gods, not the other way around.
Think of the Greek Gods. Just because the top of Mount Olympus is a spot where a thin dimensional doorway exists to the land of Zeus, Hercules and the like - that they should look Greek? It doesn't follow at all. In fact, it's kind of narrow racial thinking when you consider it. That's why I brought up Jesus earlier - for two thousand years we've had artwork showing him as blue eyed and fair skinned, when he should look more like what natives of the middle east region resemble; maybe even black. It's cultural pressures in the west that have kept it going.
Does this mean I think they should cast anyone in these roles? No. The casting for Heimdall is a question mark, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. If they had cast someone non-white as Thor, it would have been even riskier. Heimdall should be on the periphery of the story, anyway.
Re: Thor, God Of... Science?
Originally posted by Kazenji
http://www.comicvine.com/news/thor-god-of-science/140274/
That's pretty vague. Let's wait & see.
There something to it in this sense: what we consider Gods in our world, in the Marvel Universe are considered Abstracts, like Kronos & Eternity. Gods like Thor are really super powered beings existing in pocket dimensions. And are powered by a form of energy that cannot be explained by humans like Tony Stark or Reed Richards - maybe for the sake of the films it's called magic because they have no other term for it.
I knew Ultimates was going to have some influence in making this Avengers series - for a start, we know there's no Don Blake.
Re: Thor, God Of... Science?
Originally posted by Kazenji
http://www.comicvine.com/news/thor-god-of-science/140274/
...I really don't see how writers and directors feel they need to basically rape canon in order to make their movies appeal to the mainstream audience. I'll be optimistic about this and hope for the best, but damn it, if this movie tanks, I'm going to be pissed.