Originally posted by manny321
Well fighting a pointless war for a pointless cause. That's something not worth dying for imo. Yes they are sort of cowards however on behalf of Canada, welcome and enjoy our stay. Well canada acepted tens of thousands of draft dodgers in the 60's however they have to come here and seek poltical refuagee status. They have a 90% chance of being acepted here.IMO iraq is lost as civil war will begin after the elections so the US is trying to get out as fast as possibile now. Odd thing is that Bush wants to get other nations but he can't even stabilize IRAQ forget Iran dumbya!!!
Why canada sucks
I know the more left-wing and/or pacifist types will find uit very tempting to see this as a laudable action.
But I think it cannot be stressed strongly enough what a heinous crime desertion is. All it does is give someone ELSE the crap that you selfishly decided to avoid yourself.
There is only one way in which the Government can be held equally to blame here, and that is if in recruiting they didn;t tell them "You are signing up to this army and the moment you do that you are obligated to do as we say." If they didn't do that there is a problem- but they DO.
You have no right to let your personal feelings affect your judgment when called to duty in any army. That's one of the very first rules. You have to accept that you will be called to do things, in service of your state, that you do NOT want to do, as well as things you do. Armies cannot operate on any principle other than the obeying of orders absolutely. If the mentality spreads that you can back out just because you don't feel like it... then the entire system collapses. Every single deserter undermines the armed forces. Every single deserter signed up knowing that he/she was going to be obligated to do things, and as Finti points out, they ALSO knew that tours of duty sometimes get extended. That's not a breach of contract- it is IN the contract that the lengths are flexible.
To maintain an idealisitc opposition to the war is fine- but abandoning your responsibilites and your comrades is not. The founders of the modern day pacifisitc ideal- the First World War poets- made their objections WHILST STILL SERVING, because they understood the concept of responsibility, and of not abandoning others to what you refused to face. And some of them were drafted! For that they get a lot of respect. But if you bug out at the point at which the organisation you signed up to voluntarily to serve to the best of your abilities just when it needs you most... you sacrifice your credibility.
Idealism is no excuse for desertion except in the most heinous of circumstances, which despite what you might want to think, this sure as hell is not.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
I know the more left-wing and/or pacifist types will find uit very tempting to see this as a laudable action.But I think it cannot be stressed strongly enough what a heinous crime desertion is. All it does is give someone ELSE the crap that you selfishly decided to avoid yourself.
There is only one way in which the Government can be held equally to blame here, and that is if in recruiting they didn;t tell them "You are signing up to this army and the moment you do that you are obligated to do as we say." If they didn't do that there is a problem- but they DO.
You have no right to let your personal feelings affect your judgment when called to duty in any army. That's one of the very first rules. You have to accept that you will be called to do things, in service of your state, that you do NOT want to do, as well as things you do. Armies cannot operate on any principle other than the obeying of orders absolutely. If the mentality spreads that you can back out just because you don't feel like it... then the entire system collapses. Every single deserter undermines the armed forces. Every single deserter signed up knowing that he/she was going to be obligated to do things, and as Finti points out, they ALSO knew that tours of duty sometimes get extended. That's not a breach of contract- it is IN the contract that the lengths are flexible.
To maintain an idealisitc opposition to the war is fine- but abandoning your responsibilites and your comrades is not. The founders of the modern day pacifisitc ideal- the First World War poets- made their objections WHILST STILL SERVING, because they understood the concept of responsibility, and of not abandoning others to what you refused to face. And some of them were drafted! For that they get a lot of respect. But if you bug out at the point at which the organisation you signed up to voluntarily to serve to the best of your abilities just when it needs you most... you sacrifice your credibility.
Idealism is no excuse for desertion except in the most heinous of circumstances, which despite what you might want to think, this sure as hell is not.
agreed
Why canada sucks
If you are actually in the military then perhaps you should have a clue about military history.
WW1
-425 000 Canadians served overseas out of a population of 7,879,000
- Canadian Corps came to be valued as one of the most effective military formations on the Western Front, for they were masters of the grim and hazardous techniques of offensive warfare. Canadians were renowned for their ability to stand against and defeat greater odds and often did not even surrender during chemical attacks
- "The Canadians played a part of such distinction that thenceforward they were marked out as storm troops; for the remainder of the way they were brought along to head the assault in one great battle after another. Whenever the Germans found the Canadian Corps coming into the line they prepared for the worst." - Lloyd George [British Prime Minister]
- At Vimy, the Canadian Corps captured more ground, more prisoners and more guns than any previous British offensive in two-and-a-half years of war. It was one of the most complete and decisive engagements of the Great War and the greatest Allied victory up to that time. The Canadians had demonstrated they were one of the outstanding formations on the Western Front and masters of offensive warfare.
WW2
- For a full year, from June 1940 when France fell until June 1941 when the Germans invaded Russia, Canada was the second largest power in the struggle against Hitler
- The Hitler Line in central Italy was first ruptured by tanks of the Canadian 5th Armoured Division.
- On D-Day, 14,000 Canadians stormed ashore on Juno Beach and were the only force to capture all their initial objectives that day, at a cost of 1000 casualties, of which 350 were fatal.
- The Liberation of Holland was almost entirely a Canadian operation. Still today, the gratitude of the Dutch to Canada is overwhelming.
- By 1944, a quarter of what is usually referred to as the British bomber offensive over Europe was actually Canadian.
- Rommel was effectively put out of the war by Canadian spitfire ace Charley Fox on July 17, 1944, in the north of France
- the 1st Special Service Force (aka the Devil's Brigade or the Black Devils) was made up of Canadian and American soldiers and is recognized as the birth of modern special forces and the elite soldiers of ww2
-Canadians were recognized by the U.S. and british as the best soldiers to lead an attack due to their aggressiveness, superior training and successful records
From the Korean war to almost every major peacekeeping mission Canada has always been recognized for it's admirable and brave service.
Canada has always been one of the first countries to volunteer service to a JUST war.
The technology that was involved in much of the successes of NASA and Skunkworks is due to Canadians who began working there after the termination of the Avro Arrow project.
Canada's JTF2 special forces team is widely regarded as one of the best, most competent and most lethal special services units in the modern world.
That's just a taste of our military record. Haven't even mentioned anything about our contributions to the world regarding humanitarian relief, technological advancements or kickass hockey teams.
You continually show your ignorance and low class with many of your comments Napalm, how about before you open your mouth you educate yourself for once.
Originally posted by finti
as far as I know the US military is not a conscript army, and as long as you choose to join it you have to stick by that decision and fulfill the contract. So due to the fact that they contracted themselves to serve US and then desert that contract it aint nothing but treason, if US had had a draft it would be a different matter altogether.
exactly