Originally posted by Lord Septimus
Besides the fact that a Standard Fighter ship could destroy one of the ships regarded as one of the greater powerful ones.Besides the fact that almost all the technology mentioned there outclasses Star Trek technology.
Link me to the temporal mechanics section of the website please.
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say size mattered, I was mentioning how awkward it would be having so many ships trying to fight something as small as one person.
You still are having a look at the situation from the wrong position. The ships won't try to fight one person...the single person will try to fight the ships and - funny as it is - win the fight.
They would simply fly to the other side to not get targeted by the laser. If you read the question, it asks how the Star Trek ships would dodge "a" planet destroying laser and a sun. Nothing else was mentioned.
Can they "fly to the other side" faster than the Death Star can fire in the middle of a space battle ?
I couldn't give you a solid answer on that one. I don't recall any stunningly old races of space fairing people off hand that have a semblance of a back story. I do know that Starfleet is relatively new to space travel.
And that's the entire problem here. You have universe A (SW) with a history of interstellar space travel over 25,000 years (if you count the "Infinite Empire" in even more than 40,000 years) that has developed powerful technology even before that (25,000 years ago the Infinite Empire did built the Star Forge - a space station taking energy directly from a sun...meh...) VS a universe were space travel is just there for 200 years.
Uhhh... I said it was a joke. I don't care that 2 1/2 teddy bears pierced military armor with wooden arrows.
Nice. Especially since we've never seen arrows piercing it. 😉
I thought that might be the case but it's confusing because the droids are also controlled remotely and emp shielding would wreck havoc on any kind of communication system.
No. If the entire system isn't vunerable to EMP devices (that means the droids themselves and the ships that control them) EMP would do nothing.
Really? Because when he was talking about how Voyager could of destroyed the ship easily if he didn't have its time enhancements then a star destroyer could do better, I thought he was talking about a star destroyer shooting through time with its turbolasers.
a)
Basically you've got it yourself. He was saying that the Voyager could have destroyed the ship rather easily if the ships hadn't the time enchancement and if the Voyager could do this, a star destroyer would do that more easily. So that was Krenim ship without enhancements VS Star Destroyer.
b)
That doesn't even matter. Everything beside the Krenim would get destroyed in the matter of minutes and then it comes down to entire SW universe VS the Krenim...which again the Krenim would lose because of the things I've stated.
Not really. A bullet is just a projectile. It's just like an arrow or a rock. Temporal weapons cause a different kind of damage than turbolasers or proton torpedos.
The point is that you have no proof that the temporal weapons (even assuming they can pierce SW shielding technology) would be able to destroy SW ships. And even if they could they won't be able to take out much before getting destroyed. Also - pure theory - the YV could just drop a line of artificial black holes between the Krenim and the SW forces and the temporal weapons shouldn't be able to go through that (since black holes affect time...).
If they went back and destroyed the planets, the fight would never happen. The destruction of their planets would of already occurred in the present.
a)
First thing is that the Krenim don't just move back in time...they move into different dimensions / timelines when they do it meaning that they won't impact in the history of the SW universe which is going to fight them in the present.
b)
They won't even have access to the entire SW planets. Even with more advanced technology of space travel the Galactic Empire was the first organisation that managed to access the deep core of the SW galaxy. Then you have moving (and thinking) worlds in the SW universe (Zonama Sekot). Not to mention that the Krenim would need millions of years to travel through the entire SW galaxy and - considering the force itself might have something like an "own will" - there is even the possibility that it spawns an avatar to defend the SW Galaxy that will pretty much wipe the Krenim out.
Not so much physically destroy them but they, Annorax's ship at least, could just erase it.
See...the combined forces of SW transferred back in time (which is possible) would destroy the entire ST Galaxy in days or weeks at much and this is "physically destroy it".
I know it's boring but that's the way I felt like arguing when I started again. The very concept of this thread is starting to depress me and I wish I wasn't compelled to keep participating in it.
Who's compelling you to keep fighting when you've already lost ?
Then it sounds like there'd be a good "old fashioned" temporal cold war like what was apparently shown in Enterprise. Didn't really keep up with that series too much though even though Scott Bakula is awesome.
A "cold war" can only happen if both sides are equal or at least able to totally destroy the other side which ST simply can't do because of the SW Galaxies nature.
Originally posted by Borbarad
You still are having a look at the situation from the wrong position. The ships won't try to fight one person...the single person will try to fight the ships and - funny as it is - win the fight.
Can they "fly to the other side" faster than the Death Star can fire in the middle of a space battle ?
Perhaps. There was no space battle mentioned though.
And that's the entire problem here. You have universe A (SW) with a history of interstellar space travel over 25,000 years (if you count the "Infinite Empire" in even more than 40,000 years) that has developed powerful technology even before that (25,000 years ago the Infinite Empire did built the Star Forge - a space station taking energy directly from a sun...meh...) VS a universe were space travel is just there for 200 years.
Two hundred years to accomplish everything that's happened in Star Trek would be ungodly fast. Like leaps in science every few years. But that's only how long Earth has been in it.
Nice. Especially since we've never seen arrows piercing it. 😉
Maybe they were laughing gas tipped arrows, jajaja.
No. If the entire system isn't vunerable to EMP devices (that means the droids themselves and the ships that control them) EMP would do nothing.
But the emp shielding itself would make controlling the droid difficult because it would block the signal too. I suppose they could of technobabbled it so only the control signal only got through but then that only makes you wonder why they didn't use an electronic attack on that frequency or just jam it so the droids didn't work.
a) Basically you've got it yourself. He was saying that the Voyager could have destroyed the ship rather easily [b]if the ships hadn't the time enchancement
and if the Voyager could do this, a star destroyer would do that more easily. So that was Krenim ship without enhancements VS Star Destroyer.[/b]
The temporal enhancements are the backbone of the ship.
b)That doesn't even matter. Everything beside the Krenim would get destroyed in the matter of minutes and then it comes down to entire SW universe VS the Krenim...which again the Krenim would lose because of the things I've stated.
You still have other races that wouldn't go down so easily. If you're talking about a battle where you just clump each force together in its whole then fight, it wouldn't be so clear cut. Destroying warp cores have been known to create tears in space that simply suck everything in unless sealed. And it's not beyond some races to just rig up ship-sized bombs and suicide into the groups of ships.
The point is that you have no proof that the temporal weapons (even assuming they can pierce SW shielding technology) would be able to destroy SW ships. And even if they could they won't be able to take out much before getting destroyed.
I don't see why they wouldn't. They work by attacking the existance of the target, not the shields or hull itself.
Also - pure theory - the YV could just drop a line of artificial black holes between the Krenim and the SW forces and the temporal weapons shouldn't be able to go through that (since black holes affect time...).
What kind of black holes are these that they can be dropped in a line? A black hole the size of a pinhead is supposed to be able to suck up our entire solar system or something ridiculously drastic like that.
a)First thing is that the Krenim don't just move back in time...they move into different dimensions / timelines when they do it meaning that they won't impact in the history of the SW universe which is going to fight them in the present.
If it worked on that, temporal shielding wouldn't of affected their time incursions. They would just travel between timelines/dimensions with no affect on their surroundings.
b)They won't even have access to the entire SW planets. Even with more advanced technology of space travel the Galactic Empire was the first organisation that managed to access the deep core of the SW galaxy.
Perhaps they could peel back the layers of the core like an onion with incursion after incursion. Did anyone of importance come from it? How many sith warlords and empires would be destroyed just by destroying Earth? Unless humans didn't originate from Earth in Star Wars.
Then you have moving (and thinking) worlds in the SW universe (Zonama Sekot). Not to mention that the Krenim would need millions of years to travel through the entire SW galaxy
Their crews would be protected from the flow of time, so the only problem I could really think of is fuel and boredom. At least the Borg would be back there as well, then that probably solves their boredom problems... since boredom is irrational.
and - considering the force itself might have something like an "own will" - there is even the possibility that it spawns an avatar to defend the SW Galaxy that will pretty much wipe the Krenim out.
Why doesn't the force intervene when the sith are destroying things for the sake of destruction?
See...the combined forces of SW transferred back in time (which is possible) would destroy the entire ST Galaxy in days or weeks at much and this is "physically destroy it".
You said only the one guy's ship could travel between dimensions. Nothing about it traveling through time. And the type of destruction doesn't matter except that removal from time has slightly more catastrophic effects on the timeline.
Who's compelling you to keep fighting
The hostile, pretentious fantacism just annoys me. The personal insults for liking more than one sci-fi series are just ridiculous. I don't just want to sit around while buffoons sit around shouting "WOOOOO!! TREKKIES SUX!!!" like being a "sci-fi bigot" is something to be proud of. I guess extremism just isn't my bag, baby.
A "cold war" can only happen if both sides are equal or at least able to totally destroy the other side which ST simply can't do because of the SW Galaxies nature.
Well, you see, that works both ways. There are species that either inhabit dimensions not easily gotten to or live in layers of space that either don't exist, haven't been discovered, or must be amalgamed.
Plus when did Star Wars develop time travel? I've only heard of this dimension hopping ship the one guy has.
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Temporal weapons are affected by temporal shielding. And time travel.Link me to the temporal mechanics section of the website please.
So, you're pretty much ignoring every other fact and switching to something else besides the facts on the website which you've had nothing to say about?
Ignorance isn't such bliss, now is it?
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Well then, it's not a fight at all if the ships are to line up and not do anything like a monster truck event.
What they'll to exactly if a single Sith Lords uses a force ability against them that warps the space-time continuum and thereby destroys entire fleets ?
Two hundred years to accomplish everything that's happened in Star Trek would be ungodly fast. Like leaps in science every few years. But that's only how long Earth has been in it.
ROTS Republic (1.2 or 3 Million clone troopers, about thousand ships) to ROTJ Galactic Empire (billions of troops, millions of ships, Death Stars, Sun Crusher) took about 3 decades of time. Talk about "ungodly fastness"...
But the emp shielding itself would make controlling the droid difficult because it would block the signal too. I suppose they could of technobabbled it so only the control signal only got through but then that only makes you wonder why they didn't use an electronic attack on that frequency or just jam it so the droids didn't work.
Since when do EMPs disturb radio signals ? And manipulate a single frequency ? How useful...
You still have other races that wouldn't go down so easily. If you're talking about a battle where you just clump each force together in its whole then fight, it wouldn't be so clear cut. Destroying warp cores have been known to create tears in space that simply suck everything in unless sealed. And it's not beyond some races to just rig up ship-sized bombs and suicide into the groups of ships.
Oh come on. How is "destroying warp cores" (antimatter / matter reaction chambers) going to create tears in space that remain there until they are sealed ? And where is that mentioned ?
And trying a suicide attack on ships that can destroy your own ship in seconds from 100.000s kilometres away ? I doubt that this would have a great effect...
I don't see why they wouldn't. They work by attacking the existance of the target, not the shields or hull itself.
So they simply whipe out the existance of the target completely ? Can they be dodged (assuming that SW ships have 3 times the acceleration of ST ships) ? Can they shoot through black holes ? Can they (since they are technology) get affected by the force ?
What kind of black holes are these that they can be dropped in a line? A black hole the size of a pinhead is supposed to be able to suck up our entire solar system or something ridiculously drastic like that.
It's basically a huge amount of gravity manipulation done by some kind of "animals" up to the effect of "black holes". Those "animals" are able to accelerate over speed of light in the matter of seconds.
And a black hole in the size of a pinhead might be able to suck up an infinite amount of energy - but you're missing that there is something like a "point of now return". So unless somebody carries that black hole around to suck things up something like this won't happen.
If it worked on that, temporal shielding wouldn't of affected their time incursions. They would just travel between timelines/dimensions with no affect on their surroundings.
The "temporal shielding" was only used against their weapons and not against their ships (meaning preventing them from travelling around in time) or not ? And since that "torpedos" simply skip in and out of the present dimension / timeline to impact on a target that is present in a single dimension / timeline this doesn't say anything. If they travel into another timeline / dimension they won't affect the one that is "present".
Perhaps they could peel back the layers of the core like an onion with incursion after incursion. Did anyone of importance come from it? How many sith warlords and empires would be destroyed just by destroying Earth? Unless humans didn't originate from Earth in Star Wars.
It's a pity that you seem to know nothing about the things you're debating against. SW happens "a long time ago in a Galaxy far away" meaning that their is neither "Earth" in the SW universe nor a single planet from which the humans came from. And the "Sith" aren't humans - entire different species...
Their crews would be protected from the flow of time, so the only problem I could really think of is fuel and boredom. At least the Borg would be back there as well, then that probably solves their boredom problems... since boredom is irrational.
Protected from the flow of time ? I was always under the impression that they have to "skip" into time to affect it, meaning even if they only "skip" into time for one second to fire weapons (and need thousands of shots per planet) they would still get older - old enough to die before the entire SW Galaxy is destroyed...
Why doesn't the force intervene when the sith are destroying things for the sake of destruction?
Where did you ever see Sith destroying things for the sake of destruction ?
You said only the one guy's ship could travel between dimensions. Nothing about it traveling through time. And the type of destruction doesn't matter except that removal from time has slightly more catastrophic effects on the timeline.
Not the ship of a guy. The "guy" himself. It's basically a godlike being that drains energy from living things and then uses that energy for "travel" (he just disappears when he has enough energy) and it seemed as if he can expand his self (he's basically some creater with golden skin) without limits.
The hostile, pretentious fantacism just annoys me. The personal insults for liking more than one sci-fi series are just ridiculous. I don't just want to sit around while buffoons sit around shouting "WOOOOO!! TREKKIES SUX!!!" like being a "sci-fi bigot" is something to be proud of. I guess extremism just isn't my bag, baby.
Err...sorry. You are the one that comes up with new theories how ST would beat SW here every other day, gets beaten by scientific sources, just to return again with another idea. And you seem to know almost nothing about SW. So...who is the "extremist" here ?
Well, you see, that works both ways. There are species that either inhabit dimensions not easily gotten to or live in layers of space that either don't exist, haven't been discovered, or must be amalgamed.
This is a direct confrontation between everything in the SW universe and everything in the ST universe. If some entity like Q decides to sit back in his continuum and watch the fight without participating - fine. Then you have "some survivors somewhere in alternate dimensions" and still the SW universe wins.
Plus when did Star Wars develop time travel? I've only heard of this dimension hopping ship the one guy has.
He "hops" dimensions himself and if anthing you can do to save ST is change the rules of the fight into "what if the Krenim travel back in time to destroy the entire SW universe before the fight happens" it's useless to debate. What if the force decides to destroy all life in the universe because it like to. See ? Argumentum ad absurdum...
Originally posted by Lord Septimus
So, you're pretty much ignoring every other fact and switching to something else besides the facts on the website which you've had nothing to say about?
Originally posted by Borbarad
What they'll to exactly if a single Sith Lords uses a force ability against them that warps the space-time continuum and thereby destroys entire fleets?
ROTS Republic (1.2 or 3 Million clone troopers, about thousand ships) to ROTJ Galactic Empire (billions of troops, millions of ships, Death Stars, Sun Crusher) took about 3 decades of time. Talk about "ungodly fastness"...
It's not the same. To build an army with an army building machine in 3 decades or a million ships with an infinite ship building machine isn't the same as going from pre-spaceflight to having ships that transcend time and space. The space part was only scratched at though so I shant mess with it.
Since when do EMPs disturb radio signals ? And manipulate a single frequency ? How useful...
Radio signals? Radio signals bounce off atmospheres.
Oh come on. How is "destroying warp cores" (antimatter / matter reaction chambers) going to create tears in space that remain there until they are sealed ? And where is that mentioned?
Hmm... I'm not sure, I may be thinking of ships that are powered by singularities.
And trying a suicide attack on ships that can destroy your own ship in seconds from 100.000s kilometres away ? I doubt that this would have a great effect...
Judging from the star destroyers in the movies, that could barely hit the millennium falcon right in front of it, hitting something at that distance that isn't sitting still would be near impossible.
So they simply whipe out the existance of the target completely ? Can they be dodged (assuming that SW ships have 3 times the acceleration of ST ships) ?
Most torpedoes in the Star Trek universe are guided.
Can they shoot through black holes ? Can they (since they are technology) get affected by the force ?
It sounds like black holes would do as much harm as good. Logically there would be space in between them to easily fly through or they would just constantly clump together into one giant hole. And you know what? I really don't know. Is there anything of the Yuuzhan Vong that isn't some kind of flintstones-esqe creature?
It's basically a huge amount of gravity manipulation done by some kind of "animals" up to the effect of "black holes". Those "animals" are able to accelerate over speed of light in the matter of seconds.
And a black hole in the size of a pinhead might be able to suck up an infinite amount of energy - but you're missing that there is something like a "point of now return". So unless somebody carries that black hole around to suck things up something like this won't happen.
Interesting.
The "temporal shielding" was only used against their weapons and not against their ships (meaning preventing them from travelling around in time) or not ?
I forgot exactly why they calibrated their shields. I do remember the Krenim ships that they encountered began changing in front of them from crappy scooty puffs to giant warships to completely disappearing. The modified shielding screwed with the changes Annorax was making with his time ship and thus he had to destroy Voyager simply for being there.
And since that "torpedos" simply skip in and out of the present dimension / timeline to impact on a target that is present in a single dimension / timeline this doesn't say anything. If they travel into another timeline / dimension they won't affect the one that is "present".
It's really kind of confusing. I imagine it works similar to Nightcrawler's teleportation from the X-Men comics in that he always moves in a straight line but slips in and out of another dimension.
It's a pity that you seem to know nothing about the things you're debating against. SW happens "a long time ago in a Galaxy far away" meaning that their is neither "Earth" in the SW universe nor a single planet from which the humans came from.
Fair enough, but unless "seeded" or specifically set up, it's hard to believe that there would be multiple planets that would follow the same evolutionary chain to bring the same humans about and have some catastrophic event occur that eliminates reptiles from being the dominate species on the planet.
And the "Sith" aren't humans - entire different species...
I don't see "Sith" under the list of species at the starwars site. Unless... did it get retconned so sith isn't the "one master, one apprentice" folk?
Protected from the flow of time ? I was always under the impression that they have to "skip" into time to affect it, meaning even if they only "skip" into time for one second to fire weapons (and need thousands of shots per planet) they would still get older - old enough to die before the entire SW Galaxy is destroyed...
When they're in the ship, they never age, regardless of whether the ship itself is in or out of our reality. And it would only take one shot from the weapons ship to wipe a planet. If the borg got a hold of that for a forced krenim/borg collaboration, that's much more dangerous in combination with transwarp and mindless efficiency.
Where did you ever see Sith destroying things for the sake of destruction ?
I'm beginning to think what I've known as "Sith" aren't Sith at all thanks to some cooky retcon.
Not the ship of a guy. The "guy" himself. It's basically a godlike being that drains energy from living things and then uses that energy for "travel" (he just disappears when he has enough energy) and it seemed as if he can expand his self (he's basically some creater with golden skin) without limits.
Expand himself? Does he just inflate like a balloon?
Err...sorry. You are the one that comes up with new theories how ST would beat SW here every other day, gets beaten by scientific sources, just to return again with another idea.
I went into the incorporeal telepaths a bit, then we got on a tangent about transporters, and my main stance has been the development of temporal science.
And you seem to know almost nothing about SW. So...who is the "extremist" here ?
You clearly don't know the meaning of the word nor understand the context it was used in.
This is a direct confrontation between everything in the SW universe and everything in the ST universe. If some entity like Q decides to sit back in his continuum and watch the fight without participating - fine. Then you have "some survivors somewhere in alternate dimensions" and still the SW universe wins.
You don't understand. Some species only exist in subspace or wormholes. Your self-enforced condition was to destroy everything of the other universe. Subspace can be possibly translate into hyperspace if need be, since they're both different versions of the same thing but work slightly differently, but do they know how to operate wormholes in Star Wars? There's also things like Nagilum, possibly the only member of his species, that exist outside our reality somewhat like we exist outside a paramecium's reality.
He "hops" dimensions himself
Dimensions like "this is the cowboy dimension" or dimensions like time and space?
and if anthing you can do to save ST is change the rules of the fight into "what if the Krenim travel back in time to destroy the entire SW universe before the fight happens" it's useless to debate.
Was I not supposed to use advantageous routes? Apparently Starfleet was capable of time travel even back in Kirk's time. It's not that rare in the Star Trek universe. I really only expected it to go as far as "But that's lame" - "Haha, yeah" and then the thread would disappear for another 6-8 months.
What if the force decides to destroy all life in the universe because it like to. See ? Argumentum ad absurdum...
Well, that'd just leave all life tied to the force dead. The Star Wars universe commits seppuku?
Originally posted by Jack Daniels
you would be suprised what ole swanky knows...lol...
I'd actually be surprised if he knew a damn thing. His reasoning so far is pretty much not there. He knows jackshit about the Vong, the ancient Sith, the Force or the firing power of SW ships and their capabilities, let alone information for his own side. All he knows is random plot devices and "temporal weapons". Apparently some ST race can just go back in time and defeat SW in another alternate timeline (Cuz you know, that counts as a win) or just use their ONE ship with hardly any shields to "push things out of existance", and apparently they will be able to dupe and ambush millions of SW ships and planets with this, when the device couldn't knock of the Voyager. WTF? Hello? Stop taking the drugs.
Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
I'd actually be surprised if he knew a damn thing. His reasoning so far is pretty much not there. He knows jackshit about the Vong, the ancient Sith, the Force or the firing power of SW ships and their capabilities, let alone information for his own side. All he knows is random plot devices and "temporal weapons". Apparently some ST race can just go back in time and defeat SW in another alternate timeline (Cuz you know, that counts as a win) or just use their ONE ship with hardly any shields to "push things out of existance", and apparently they will be able to dupe and ambush millions of SW ships and planets with this, when the device couldn't knock of the Voyager. WTF? Hello? Stop taking the drugs.