Originally posted by Borbarad
That's because SW shielding technology. The same Stardestroyer would destroy ST ships in seconds
So they basically "dublicate" the entire timeline as it is and then put themselves into it ?
Let me try to explain it a little better. Krenim time ship fires on planet A. A new timeline now exists in reality. Planet A has never existed and anything its ever influenced never happens. The created timeline is now the way things have always been. Voyager's temporal shielding caused the change not to take place in their orb of protection and that malfunctioned the Krenim's shot because they did not account for it.
Oh please. How high is the possibility that alien species are humanoid ? Arguing "odds" is useless here. What happened did happen and that's it...
Well, humanoid is a good shape. Two traveling limbs, two working limbs with thumbs. What's not to like? It's different between the two but yeah, it doesn't matter.
Oh please. Did they enter a certain reality or did they try to "fix" it from the outside?
Alright, here's what happened. Then the ship was first designed, its first firing was set to erased an enemy species from existence. They succeeded but they made an error. The species they eliminated introduced an antibody into their people. Without the antibody, they were devastated by plague. The second firing restored the enemy species and the plague never took place but the krenim empire wasn't quite restored. Among that missing, was the colony where Annorax's wife lived and/or was born. So he spent the next few hundred years trying to restore things completely.
No. It is not. Transwarp is based on using anomalies in subspace called "transwarp conduits" which the Borg have discovered and since those don't exist in the SW Galaxy they can't be utilized.
It's also artificially created to enter subspace through also artificially created corridors. The Voth and Borg use it. If subspace is not allowed, why is hyperspace allowed?
It doesn't matter...
Then why did you make such a big deal about using the time travel argument?
And this is were your nice time travel theory ends. The borg and Krenim aren't tied to the force but their technology would get affected by it within the SW universe since it's matter. The Yuuzhan Vong weren't affected because all of their "technology" is bio-engineered stuff that isn't tied to the force - ST technology is not. So within the SW Galaxy their ships will get affected by the force.
And the force has basically taken over several beings in the SW EU and used them for it's purpose. So even if a single paramecium shows up the Krenim and the Borg - travelling back in time to destroy the SW Galaxy - could get royally screwed by the Force which would simply destroy all their nice little ships. So unless they can survive in outer space and destroy planets with their bare hands...SW wins...again.
"Basically" possessing people is a far cry from destroying ships autonomously.
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
The point was it had such a hard time hitting the falcon when it was right in front of it but you claim it's going to be sniping moving ships from 100,000km.
You DO realize that the Millenium Falcon is a fraction of the size of any Trek battleship and was being pilotted manually (Not "setting courses", manual pilotting) by Han Solo? Let me put it another way... When was the last time Trek ships showed that kind of battle maneuverability? And the Falcon took a couple of hits from both the ISD's turbolasers AND asteroids. The Enterprise would be like to survive either on its own, and it certainly wouldn't have the ability to dodge either like Han did.
Let me try to explain it a little better. Krenim time ship fires on planet A. A new timeline now exists in reality. Planet A has never existed and anything its ever influenced never happens. The created timeline is now the way things have always been. Voyager's temporal shielding caused the change not to take place in their orb of protection and that malfunctioned the Krenim's shot because they did not account for it.
And here's where your plan falls apart- the moment that ship is spotted (And it's already proven that ST propulsion systems are way inferior to SW ones) it'll be surrounded. Now, it has all the armaments and shields of a Radioflyer wagon with a tin roof. It has no chance in hell. It can fire and take out Random Ship A, or perhaps even try for a potshot at the planet itself, but it's going down. There's no feasible way for it to destroy the SW universe in any short order. And since this isn't just one Krenim ship versus SW (It's ALL of ST versus ALL of SW), the other planets are going to be curbstomping ST forces before that one unique ship takes out a few systems (And that's if I give you the benefit of the doubt and say it's successful. I fail to see how something with weak shields even for ST can manage to survive for the length of time it would take to destroy all of SW (Millions of planets, space stations, etc.)
Well, humanoid is a good shape. Two traveling limbs, two working limbs with thumbs. What's not to like? It's different between the two but yeah, it doesn't matter.
Okay. We'll ignore that silly point. Arguing alien realism is a bit pointless and doesn't pertain to the fight at hand.
Alright, here's what happened. Then the ship was first designed, its first firing was set to erased an enemy species from existence. They succeeded but they made an error. The species they eliminated introduced an antibody into their people. Without the antibody, they were devastated by plague. The second firing restored the enemy species and the plague never took place but the krenim empire wasn't quite restored. Among that missing, was the colony where Annorax's wife lived and/or was born. So he spent the next few hundred years trying to restore things completely.
Wow. So much for reliable tech. And what's to stop SW ships from gangbanging the Krenim empire while they try and figure out their own technology?
It's also artificially created to enter subspace through also artificially created corridors. The Voth and Borg use it. If subspace is not allowed, why is hyperspace allowed?
Most likely because such anomalies need to be proven to exist outside of ST space. If I say there's monsoons in the Indian Ocean, and I assume that they exist in the Hudson Bay, I need to have some proof, not just conjectures. It's possible that they can be utilized, but proof is needed. (Of which you have given very little). Hyperspace, however, isn't an anomaly- it's actually entering into something created and maintained by the engine itself, I believe. I can find some more information on it and present it to you later.
"Basically" possessing people is a far cry from destroying ships autonomously.
I think here he's trying to show you that the Force exists in SW lifeforms, including the lowest possible kind. If ST races were to become infected with bacterium or viruses, the Force would technically live on (Actually, it would live on so long as there are planets and beings in the SW universe. I don't see ST being able to wipe out such things in under a million plus years.) And the Force itself does have a will and does affect the universe. I don't think this is the end-all of points, but it is something to be considered.
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
The point was it had such a hard time hitting the falcon when it was right in front of it but you claim it's going to be sniping moving ships from 100,000km.
The Millenium Falcon was manouvered manually by Han Solo who is known to be one of the best pilots in the SW universe. Than the Millenium Falcon is basically only 1/5 or 1/6 of the size of and ST battleship and - despite of that 2 facts - the Stardestroyer still managed to hit the Millenium Falcon for several times.
Let me try to explain it a little better. Krenim time ship fires on planet A. A new timeline now exists in reality. Planet A has never existed and anything its ever influenced never happens. The created timeline is now the way things have always been. Voyager's temporal shielding caused the change not to take place in their orb of protection and that malfunctioned the Krenim's shot because they did not account for it.
And since you've dodged the points: Anything - with the exception of lifeforms who aren't tied to the force will get affected by the force. That includes ships, torpedos and anything else that can be labelled technology. In a "normal" fight torpedos are useless because of that. In your "Krenim and Borg travel back through time" scenario it's equally useless.
Well, humanoid is a good shape. Two traveling limbs, two working limbs with thumbs. What's not to like? It's different between the two but yeah, it doesn't matter.
This point is usless. Fact remains that human beings don't origin from a single planet in the SW universe.
Alright, here's what happened. Then the ship was first designed, its first firing was set to erased an enemy species from existence. They succeeded but they made an error. The species they eliminated introduced an antibody into their people. Without the antibody, they were devastated by plague. The second firing restored the enemy species and the plague never took place but the krenim empire wasn't quite restored. Among that missing, was the colony where Annorax's wife lived and/or was born. So he spent the next few hundred years trying to restore things completely.
So...all you have proven is, that they can't manipulate everything as they like. Thanks.
It's also artificially created to enter subspace through also artificially created corridors. The Voth and Borg use it. If subspace is not allowed, why is hyperspace allowed?
They use anomalies in subspace which don't have to exist outside the ST universe. That's the point. They can't use transwarp without those anomalies. Warp and Hyperspace engines don't use anomalies they "create" a room arround the ships that allow them to travel with speeds faster than light.
"Basically" possessing people is a far cry from destroying ships autonomously.
Watch "The Phantom Menace" and listen to Qui-Gon. The force has an autonomous will and since it's present in every lifeform in the SW Galaxy (through midichlorians) it can posess every lifeform that exists and channel the entirety of it's - unlimited - power through that single lifeform (even a bacteria is enough). And since I don't see a possibility for the Krenim / Borg to arrive at the SW Galaxy before even the lowest form of life exists...
Originally posted by Borbarad
The Millenium Falcon was manouvered manually by Han Solo who is known to be one of the best pilots in the SW universe. Than the Millenium Falcon is basically only 1/5 or 1/6 of the size of and ST battleship and - despite of that 2 facts - the Stardestroyer still managed to hit the Millenium Falcon for several times.
And since you've dodged the points: Anything - with the exception of lifeforms who aren't tied to the force will get affected by the force. That includes ships, torpedos and anything else that can be labelled technology. In a "normal" fight torpedos are useless because of that.
Your question to clear up how the krenim ship worked had nothing to do with any of that.
In your "Krenim and Borg travel back through time" scenario it's equally useless.
I've yet to hear a defense against it aside from a vaguely described character that can travel through time and the force using a newfound ability to spawn an avatar.
This point is usless.
I didn't say it didn't matter for no reason.
So...all you have proven is, that they can't manipulate everything as they like. Thanks.
You're twisting the words. They were attempting to calculate a specific timeline to create and Voyager's shielding wasn't part of the calculation. It's quite different from indiscriminately erasing things from time with disregard of the effects on the timeline.
They use anomalies in subspace which don't have to exist outside the ST universe. That's the point. They can't use transwarp without those anomalies. Warp and Hyperspace engines don't use anomalies they "create" a room arround the ships that allow them to travel with speeds faster than light.
Warp works by creating a field that "rides" subspace like a sea ship rides the winds as well as allowing it to travel that fast in the first place. The transwarp hub that you may be thinking off does work by using the anomaly but their ships can achieve transwarp as well. It seems to work the same as regular warp except it cuts deeper into subspace and thus goes much faster than normal warp. Like I said, the different "spaces" have to be combined (or stacked, somehow) or Star Trek loses its warp and long some forms of communications or Star Wars loses its hyperdrive.
Watch "The Phantom Menace" and listen to Qui-Gon. The force has an autonomous will and since it's present in every lifeform in the SW Galaxy (through midichlorians) it can posess every lifeform that exists and channel the entirety of it's - unlimited - power through that single lifeform (even a bacteria is enough). And since I don't see a possibility for the Krenim / Borg to arrive at the SW Galaxy before even the lowest form of life exists...
Nothing about the force is ever set in stone. To say it has unlimited power is odd considering it doesn't have unlimited range, unless it just "chooses" to not expand further than it does. Until it's done something greater than possess a few people, I find it hard to believe it'll spring to life to save the future lives of all the tyrants, dictators, and their armies.
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
But the fact that it missed at all when it was right in front of it is my point. You're claiming the ships would be taken out at 100,00km or so, yes they're roughly 5-6 times larger but they're also what? 100 times further away? The turbolaser shots are far from instantaneous.
Gas charged with energy travelling near speed of light on 100,000 KM Range is nearly equal to "instanteous" since it would hit the target 0,5 seconds after being fired. And this is cross-fire from billions of ships so it doesn't matter. Basically every metre of space will be bombarded with it...
Warp works by creating a field that "rides" subspace like a sea ship rides the winds as well as allowing it to travel that fast in the first place. The transwarp hub that you may be thinking off does work by using the anomaly but their ships can achieve transwarp as well. It seems to work the same as regular warp except it cuts deeper into subspace and thus goes much faster than normal warp. Like I said, the different "spaces" have to be combined (or stacked, somehow) or Star Trek loses its warp and long some forms of communications or Star Wars loses its hyperdrive.
Every "transwarp" technology uses the anomalies (conduits) in the ST universe - that's why the Borg were annihilated when one of the conduits was destroyed in "Endgame".
Nothing about the force is ever set in stone. To say it has unlimited power is odd considering it doesn't have unlimited range, unless it just "chooses" to not expand further than it does. Until it's done something greater than possess a few people, I find it hard to believe it'll spring to life to save the future lives of all the tyrants, dictators, and their armies.
Where did you get the idea from that the force has "limited range", eh ? The Yuuzhan Vong invaded from a different Galaxy and at least one of them was a force user. And may I remind you that people have destroyed planets, fleets, armies using just a very small part of the force's power and it "sprang to life to save future live" at least once. So it's hard to believe that something that already happened will happen again ?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Gas charged with energy travelling near speed of light on 100,000 KM Range is nearly equal to "instanteous" since it would hit the target 0,5 seconds after being fired.
And this is cross-fire from billions of ships so it doesn't matter. Basically every metre of space will be bombarded with it...
Not billions at once, clearly. They'd have to be incredibly packed to be one unified firing squad.
Every "transwarp" technology uses the anomalies (conduits) in the ST universe - that's why the Borg were annihilated when one of the conduits was destroyed in "Endgame".
Transwarp is a generic term for faster than warp travel. Slipstream and wormhole travel are considered transwarp. Ships with transwarp drives may work in a variety of ways but the borg's work by creating a conduit to travel through via subspace. The transwarp hub destroyed in endgame wasn't really gone into but their sensors read it as a bunch of wormholes. But it's not really important.
Where did you get the idea from that the force has "limited range", eh ? The Yuuzhan Vong invaded from a different Galaxy and at least one of them was a force user.
Then why is/was the force just magic tricks and voodoo to them? Why does the force not flow through them? Why did the jedi council apparently send out a team to open the "force bubble" surrounding the galaxy in NJO?
And may I remind you that people have destroyed planets, fleets, armies using just a very small part of the force's power and it "sprang to life to save future live" at least once. So it's hard to believe that something that already happened will happen again ?
Did it save the lives of the armies of the wicked? Did it save the lives of those who use its power for their own corrupt reasons? When did it do such a thing?
Originally posted by Commander K
Swanky, give up. Did ANY Star Trek character took over a planet by ITSELF? No. Did ANY Star Trek character were able to blow up planet? No. And blah blah blah.
Originally posted by DE Calvin
Its an Elton John song that William Shatner did, and sucked.
Originally posted by Tangible God
I hate the Borg. Vong coral kicks there metal heiny.
I think I take a liking to the borg because they combine the two things I fear the most; robots and zombies. *shudder*
That's nonsensical beyond nonsensical. Their shots clearly don't travel anywhere near light-speed in the movies. Do you have references that say they do?
Erm... Actually if you bother to go frame by frame in ESB (As Wong has done on his website), you can see that the effects of turbolasers exceed the velocity of the colored beam. In other words, the color is just a visual byproduct of something moving above the speed of light. If something moves above the speed of light, you can't view it in realtime; you can only see afterimages of it.