I don't think that there is any airtight case for either side, except possibly the Q. But they take all the contest out of it. I think that the ships in SW are way cooler, and way larger, but as to who would win? That's an open debate (as exemplified by this thread). I'm pretty sure that someone on this thread said that ST is based on what the writers wanted to be true, but it actually has a sound base in reality. Let me illustrate:
PAD --> Palm Pilot
Antimatter Reactor --> Antimatter has been created at CERN, but only in minute quantities.
Fusion Reactor --> A work in progress.
Deuterium --> A real isotope of hydrogen.
Warp Drive --> A physicist whose last name is Alcubierre has proposed a type of warp drive, but it is only a theory, not a reality.
Phasers --> Seem to be an advanced form of laser, except they use different types of energy rather than light.
Torpedoes --> Filled with antimatter; have a high theoretical payload.
Transporters --> Scientists have used the theory of quantum entanglement to develop a form of "transportation" for single protons.
Nanoprobes --> Nanotechnology - engineers are designing "machines" that are only a few microns long.
That's all I can think of right now.
Originally posted by DarkLord_981
I don't think that there is any airtight case for either side, except possibly the Q. But they take all the contest out of it. I think that the ships in SW are way cooler, and way larger, but as to who would win? That's an open debate (as exemplified by this thread). I'm pretty sure that someone on this thread said that ST is based on what the writers wanted to be true, but it actually has a sound base in reality. Let me illustrate:PAD --> Palm Pilot
Antimatter Reactor --> Antimatter has been created at CERN, but only in minute quantities.
Fusion Reactor --> A work in progress.
Deuterium --> A real isotope of hydrogen.
Warp Drive --> A physicist whose last name is Alcubierre has proposed a type of warp drive, but it is only a theory, not a reality.
Phasers --> Seem to be an advanced form of laser, except they use different types of energy rather than light.
Torpedoes --> Filled with antimatter; have a high theoretical payload.
Transporters --> Scientists have used the theory of quantum entanglement to develop a form of "transportation" for single protons.
Nanoprobes --> Nanotechnology - engineers are designing "machines" that are only a few microns long.That's all I can think of right now.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by DarkLord_981
I don't think that there is any airtight case for either side, except possibly the Q. But they take all the contest out of it. I think that the ships in SW are way cooler, and way larger, but as to who would win? That's an open debate (as exemplified by this thread). I'm pretty sure that someone on this thread said that ST is based on what the writers wanted to be true, but it actually has a sound base in reality. Let me illustrate:PAD --> Palm Pilot
Antimatter Reactor --> Antimatter has been created at CERN, but only in minute quantities.
Fusion Reactor --> A work in progress.
Deuterium --> A real isotope of hydrogen.
Warp Drive --> A physicist whose last name is Alcubierre has proposed a type of warp drive, but it is only a theory, not a reality.
Phasers --> Seem to be an advanced form of laser, except they use different types of energy rather than light.
Torpedoes --> Filled with antimatter; have a high theoretical payload.
Transporters --> Scientists have used the theory of quantum entanglement to develop a form of "transportation" for single protons.
Nanoprobes --> Nanotechnology - engineers are designing "machines" that are only a few microns long.That's all I can think of right now.
The technology used for a palm pilot predates TNG. Antimatter reacters ARE suprisingly sound as a source of energy, but no sane engineer would attach one to his ship. Fusion reactors are common knowledge. I hardly consider that predicting anything or reflecting a "sound base" in reality any more than the pistol shapes of blasters reflect "sound base" in weaponry design. Phasers are clearly ridiculous items, since they do not truly vaporize- they just "magically" make matter disappear. If it was a fast paced molecular change that really took place, there would be noticeable effects in the area, like a flash of heat or dissipating matter. Transporters are as far from a reality as possible, especially without recepticles on either side. They're also unethical, essentially stripping a thing down to nothing and more or less "faxing" it to the recepticle, where it is reassembled and claimed to be the same thing. This isn't true transporting any more than faxing is "sending" papers across lines.
Also, when it comes to nanotech most major sci-fi series including ST totally muck up the actual use and nature of such things. In fact, ST mucks up the science behind a lot of things, often using improper terms of measurement of power and force, using longer but less accurate words to sound overly important while conveying little real information, and so on. The list goes on and on. See here for another, more thorough look.
Aside from the fact that ST gets pretty much thrown around like a doberman's ragdoll, their "realistic" science is about as fake as it gets. And I don't see anyone ever saying "SW tech is more realistic!" cuz they aren't braggerts and fanboys on the level of Trekkies (In the tech department, at least. That's a main staple of Trekkies everywhere.. the "fantastic tech".) Also, ST has some pretty nonfeasible nontechnical deals going on- they don't have any army outside of Starfleet. Starfleet owns and controls all planets in Federation space, whether it's discovered them and established contact or not. Starfleet controls all of earth's affairs and makes sure there are no privately owned starships in the system. Religion is apparently just gone and peace reigned on earth. No messy civil wars or anything. Phasers aren't made for people who want to aim. Starfleet doesn't have armed tanks, a varied arsenal, or proper training for their part-time navy/army troops. The fact that Starfleet senior officers accompany EVERY damn away team is pretty piss poor. Likewise, those pajamas wouldn't stop a feather coming at five miles an hour. And Riker is the only shown capable pilot in the entire ST universe because he can use a manual flight yoke- something every individual pilot in the SW universe has to be familiar with, and something we use in this day and age because it's practical, unlike 99% of the ST so-called realistic tech.
Really, I can't help but be amused at how easily taken in people are by the so-called authenticity of ST tech.
Originally posted by TRSundown
The Imperial Probe Droid is just one rock solid piece of evidence that there are aspects of the SW verse that dont hold water against the ST verse... and just as I said, SW is the narrow minded that will not admit that...
Wow, fanboy. So a droid that survived atmospheric entry after surviving an asteroid field and harsh working conditions, sends a transmission across the GALAXY (Something ST tech would be hardpressed to accomplish with such accuracy for a slightly larger than car-sized piece of equipment) and it was a little grainy and that proves.... what? By your logic, SW universe has mastered the hyperdrive which outstrips the warp drive. Therefore, SW just wins, but "ST is to narrow minded to admit that."
See how stupid that logic is? Calling it logic is almost a sin.
And before you say "Omfg teh droyd blew up when tehy shot it!" it says clearly in the novelisation that the droid self detonated once it had been found and damaged so that it would not fall into rebel hands.
Do you have any real points, or just "omfg one instance! Teh victory!" posts?
I don't recall saying that Star Trek was one hundred percent realistic, but then nobody's memory is perfect. You are right one most of your points, but I said that Star Trek has a BASE in reality for many, not most technologies. Just because an antimatter reactor WOULD go critical as soon as the magnetic containment field failed doesn't mean that it isn't possible. It's bad enough that we're trying to compare the very different SW and ST, but when you factor in writing, acting, voiceovers, special effects, etc., things get to be ridiculous. I'm not saying that the acting in ST is good or bad; the same with SW. The technologies in the two are very different, but one is a series of movies, and the other is a string of about a million series and several unexceptional movies. I have not stated that the dictatorial form of government or their religions are realistic.
As well, except for this one comment, I will not acknowledge any personal attacks (ie. the gullibility of ST fans, although I'm an SW fan too) because this is a purely theoretical debate.
P.S. Thank you for acknowledging that 1% of ST tech is practical and semi-realistic.
Originally posted by Wesker
The technology used for a palm pilot predates TNG. Antimatter reacters ARE suprisingly sound as a source of energy, but no sane engineer would attach one to his ship. Fusion reactors are common knowledge. I hardly consider that predicting anything or reflecting a "sound base" in reality any more than the pistol shapes of blasters reflect "sound base" in weaponry design. Phasers are clearly ridiculous items, since they do not truly vaporize- they just "magically" make matter disappear. If it was a fast paced molecular change that really took place, there would be noticeable effects in the area, like a flash of heat or dissipating matter. Transporters are as far from a reality as possible, especially without recepticles on either side. They're also unethical, essentially stripping a thing down to nothing and more or less "faxing" it to the recepticle, where it is reassembled and claimed to be the same thing. This isn't true transporting any more than faxing is "sending" papers across lines.
Oh come on... look it up on the internet. The science is there... ST takes the theory of that science and adds the fiction... dude... its not like we think that its all real and we can beam up...
Originally posted by Wesker
Also, when it comes to nanotech most major sci-fi series including ST totally muck up the actual use and nature of such things. In fact, ST mucks up the science behind a lot of things, often using improper terms of measurement of power and force, using longer but less accurate words to sound overly important while conveying little real information, and so on. The list goes on and on. See here for another, more thorough look.
Okay... dont go there with nano tech... I work on Micro and Nano satellites so dont BS with that... again... they take the basics of the tech and add the fiction. Things are going to get "mucked up" in the process. Thats why its fiction.
Originally posted by Wesker
Aside from the fact that ST gets pretty much thrown around like a doberman's ragdoll, their "realistic" science is about as fake as it gets. And I don't see anyone ever saying "SW tech is more realistic!" cuz they aren't braggerts and fanboys on the level of Trekkies (In the tech department, at least. That's a main staple of Trekkies everywhere.. the "fantastic tech".) Also, ST has some pretty nonfeasible nontechnical deals going on- they don't have any army outside of Starfleet. Starfleet owns and controls all planets in Federation space, whether it's discovered them and established contact or not. Starfleet controls all of earth's affairs and makes sure there are no privately owned starships in the system. Religion is apparently just gone and peace reigned on earth. No messy civil wars or anything. Phasers aren't made for people who want to aim. Starfleet doesn't have armed tanks, a varied arsenal, or proper training for their part-time navy/army troops. The fact that Starfleet senior officers accompany EVERY damn away team is pretty piss poor. Likewise, those pajamas wouldn't stop a feather coming at five miles an hour. And Riker is the only shown capable pilot in the entire ST universe because he can use a manual flight yoke- something every individual pilot in the SW universe has to be familiar with, and something we use in this day and age because it's [b]practical, unlike 99% of the ST so-called realistic tech.Really, I can't help but be amused at how easily taken in people are by the so-called authenticity of ST tech. [/B]
Dude... you obviously have no experience with ST EU... you are right... they do not have a marine type military on the scale of SW... not even close... but there are vehicles that assume the roles of tanks and all the other crap you mentioned... no one ever disputed that.
So why is it piss poor that for the sake of the story the senior officers go on away teams... woopy frickin doo...
And your comments about Riker... whats that all about... sever case of penis envy or something? So there have been no other movies or TV shows that show anyone using a manual fight yoke... whats your point...?
We can sit here and throw this crap back and forth all night long... lets just agree to dissagree... cause I have given all the "proof" I feel I need to... just cause you refuse to acknowledge it is not my problem... I have conceeded to ST's downfalls... why dont you do the same...
I have to disagree that the Hyperdrive is faster than certain methods of propulsion in the ST Universe. In one episode, Voyager managed to achieve infinite velocity or warp 10. At infinite velocity, a ship is supposed to occupy every point in space simultaneously, and they state that they should be able to create a system that would drop them out of warp at any point in the galaxy, perhaps even any point in the Universe. Voyager dropped this idea because it had adverse effects on the crew, but it seems likely that once Voyager returned home, they would be able to research a new shield modulation, or modify their deflector array to protect them from this. As well, they managed to find a cure for the transformation process that took place. There are a few other techs that could beat the Hyperdrive. The Caretaker transported ship after ship across 70,000 lightyears in presumably a few seconds. The Caretaker must have travelled from his galaxy to "ours" somehow, most likely at speeds faster than Hyperdrive. The Borg have transwarp hubs that can deploy ships anywhere in the galaxy within minutes. Quantum Slipstream seems to be able to traverse thousands of lightyears within hours. Species 8472 and numerous other species feature methods of travelling through subspace or spatial rifts. The transwarp drives on individual ships must be nearly as fast as travel through the transwarp hub.
Originally posted by DarkLord_981
I have to disagree that the Hyperdrive is faster than certain methods of propulsion in the ST Universe. In one episode, Voyager managed to achieve infinite velocity or warp 10. At infinite velocity, a ship is supposed to occupy every point in space simultaneously, and they state that they should be able to create a system that would drop them out of warp at any point in the galaxy, perhaps even any point in the Universe. Voyager dropped this idea because it had adverse effects on the crew, but it seems likely that once Voyager returned home, they would be able to research a new shield modulation, or modify their deflector array to protect them from this. As well, they managed to find a cure for the transformation process that took place. There are a few other techs that could beat the Hyperdrive. The Caretaker transported ship after ship across 70,000 lightyears in presumably a few seconds. The Caretaker must have travelled from his galaxy to "ours" somehow, most likely at speeds faster than Hyperdrive. The Borg have transwarp hubs that can deploy ships anywhere in the galaxy within minutes. Quantum Slipstream seems to be able to traverse thousands of lightyears within hours. Species 8472 and numerous other species feature methods of travelling through subspace or spatial rifts. The transwarp drives on individual ships must be nearly as fast as travel through the transwarp hub.
Your memory is better than mine... good points... granted none of these examples are the main stream transportation like hyperdrive is in SW... but it still shows that the possibilities exist in ST. Unfortunately the SW folks dont like to acknowledge these anomalis events...
How can they not acknowledge the single-time events? Star Trek is a TV show!!! Without these so called anomalous events, Star Trek has nothing more than a handful of Enterprises, Voyager, and DS-9 which have all had their OWN shows. Oh... and a single volley of photon torpedoes between them. The only things that show up in every episode of a series ARE the ships, to deny that these events occurred within the ST EU is to deny ST any chance of winning. Species 8472, the Krenim, and a whole load of "anomalous" assets to ST would be wiped out. In order to make this a fair comparison, everything, except for Q, and possibly similar, god-like SW characters, should be included.
ok trekies even if star wars was just from the madelorian years to 300 years later we would still. This is becuase that time period has one of the best weapons the STAR FORGE!!!! even if trekkies found its t location we could still hold you off with ships and droids being made in seconds. So beat that. Oh wait I forgot you can't.
But we can beat that. There are numerous instances where people travel back in time, or where they use time based weaponry in order to defeat enemies. They would simply have to travel back in time until they found the origins of the Rakatan race. Even if they could only transport a single person back in time with nothing more than a 29th Century phaser, the precursors to the Rakatan race would be hard pressed to stop a phaser blast with nothing more than sticks and stones. Someone on this site once said that when ST time travels, they create a parallel Universe or something like that. Well, they're going to have to say in what episode that happened, or they have to provide a ST and SW, or a purely ST site that talks about that. The timeship USS Relativity transports people back and forth through time without causing multiple realities, and the smaller timeship piloted by an older Captain Braxton manages to travel through time without creating multiple realities as well. Another weapon is the Krenim weapon ship, it doesn't matter how many lasers you shoot at it or how powerful those lasers are, the Krenim ship is just not affected by weaponry so long as it remains outside of normal space/time. Even Voyager and its allies with all of their weapon remodulations could not destroy it until it reunited with normal space/time. As well, their weapon erases things from time - like they never happened. They accidentally destroyed the wrong planet with it and brought the Krenim Empire to its knees. It doesn't matter how large your Empire is, if the planet that spawned the Rakatans was hit by it, the Rakatans would never have existed, the Infinite Empire would never have existed, and all those ships would never have existed. The Krenim ship seems to be able to tell where a certain lifeform originated from even in space they've never been to before. This would allow them to locate the Rakatan planet and erase their civilization from history. SW doesn't stand much of a chance against time travel and time weapons because they've never been forced to use time travel to make the show interesting. Whereas in ST, after they've reused every idea three times, they have to try something new. Unless there's something in the books (I don't know if the books count on this thread or not), I don't see how SW could possibly overcome the Krenim ship, let alone an entire Starfleet filled with time-travelling ships.
I don't know.... In order to make this battle work at all we have to make a few assumptions.
1-same physics in both universes (yeah I know that's crap, but hast to be assumed in order to compare anything)
2-all means everything.
3-Probably something else I can't think of at the moment
Now on the surface I admit that it appears that ST would wup with temporal and transphasic whositwhatsits, but at the same time lack of evidence is not evidence.
With the frequency that enterprise and other ships encountered their temporal "anomalies" and such because of #1 we have to assume that these things happened in SW universe as well. We then must ask why we never see such weapons used in SW. I can think of 3 reasons... 1)They are like modern nukes too terrible for even palpy and darth too use 2)They have advance to the point that even basic sheilds and other tech negates their effectiveness 3) somehow in the 25000+ years of SW history they never discovered any of the anomalies that led to the developement of such weapons in the 300 years of ST history (I'll even give you a thousand for other races commonly shown on the show).
1 is unlikely due to palpatines penchant for actually using superweapons. 3 I find unlikely just due to playing the statistics game. That leaves 2.
If we accept that physics is the same in both universes We pretty much must accept that SW tech would be more advanced in at least some areas. Not all areas different cultures would naturally focus on different things, but necessary things for space travel would likely advance at a similar rate between the 2 world (it may plateau, but it likely plateaus in similar historical references)
Besides SW still has Thrawn, who's ST gonna throw at him?
PS That Transwarp or whatever.... sounds like the Federation just may be on the verge of entering the hyperspace age, eh?
I didn't realize that we were making assumptions. I thought that except for a LITTLE room to move on either side we would stick to what is seen in the movies and/or shows and/or books. If we assume that SW has come across lots of temporal anomalies and such, we could assume that certain things would happen in the ST Universe.
For example, at least one race in ST must have come across Hyperspace, or out of the thousands, maybe even millions of races that we assume live in the ST Universe, it seems likely that some of them have huge Star Destroyer-like ships, or weapons that rival the Death Star. But I cannot prove this, so I don't like to use such assumptions in my arguments.
I do agree that the physics have to be similar in each Universe in order to compare, but it could also be some Grand Unified Laws of Physics, where every tech from every race ST and SW works in the same Universe.
I don't know what a Thrawn is, but if it's a character, ST ain't got nothing to throw at him character-wise.
Transwarp allows for travel across the entire galaxy in minutes, not hours. Looks like the Empire might have to play a little catch-up tech wise. Besides, Warp 10 is still faster, Transwarp can go anywhere you want (or so it seems), and the Caretaker can zap people across the galaxy in seconds.
And I'm not sure what your point #2 is talking about. Do you mean that everything from the movies, books, games, shows, etcetera, must be taken into account? If so, I agree. Except for Q's and beings who are as powerful AND speedy, and the Infinite number of vessels featured in one episode of TNG (another unfair advantage).
I have a few questions: What does NJO stand for? What is NJO Luke? Where is he featured? What are the Yuuhzan Vong? And are they in this discussion as well?
- edit -
I thought of another assumption that could be made that is almost exactly the same. In the ST Universe, they don't wear armour. We could assume that they think the armour cramps their style, or we could assume that phasers would just melt a whole through most armour. But since they never say the real reason, it is impossible to tell.
Well, We would definitely have to assume that hyperspace is possible in the ST universe. Whether or not anyone had discovered it would be an open question. And that large structures like the death star could be built with the same types of calculations. Again Discovery of that tech is an open question.
Caretaker sounds almost like Q. funny how many skyhooks are in ST(there are a few in SW too, mainly in the EU).
All means all, movies books etc. of course in the event of a contradiction SW looks to movies and ST looks to TV + movies.
Yeah, Thrawn is a character. could basically read any enemy just by art, architcture, etc. And as far as I've seen the best tactician and military strategist that SW has to offer. (Oh and he likes to steal and adapt new technologies according to the new Outbound Flight novel)
I don't think we can automatically assume that armor is ineffective against "current" phaser tech(always allow for tech to improve). We could say the federation hasn't found armor that is effective, or that such armor like you say would be too bulky. Whether the plasteel stromtrooper armor would give any protection.... Well maybe some, but it seems to be only minimally effective vs SW blasters. personally I think it's more of and intimidation game for the stomtroopers. Mandalorian Armor on the other hand is supposed to be mighty effective.
-edit-
NJO is New Jedi Order take place decades after the movies and Luke gets mighty strong. can move artificially created black holes with the force. Yuuhzan Vong are an enemy introduced in NJO that are seemingly outside the force, although at the end of the series they just said they must be on a different force "wavelength"
You're right. We definitely have to assume that every technology that has already been developed and defined in each Universe will work when the two Universes collide. The Caretaker seems to be fairly powerful, but he is nowhere close to all-powerful. Can this NJO Luke character and other such beings throw stars and make black holes? If so, that would seem to tip the favour of space battles toward SW. It would be difficult if ST ships had to continuously dodge stars with diameters of millions of kilometers while still shooting at the enemy. Before I thought that SW had the advantage in ground TROOPS, but that it was anyone's guess in space, but maybe not...
Originally posted by DarkLord_981
You're right. We definitely have to assume that every technology that has already been developed and defined in each Universe will work when the two Universes collide. The Caretaker seems to be fairly powerful, but he is nowhere close to all-powerful. Can this NJO Luke character and other such beings throw stars and make black holes? If so, that would seem to tip the favour of space battles toward SW. It would be difficult if ST ships had to continuously dodge stars with diameters of millions of kilometers while still shooting at the enemy. Before I thought that SW had the advantage in ground TROOPS, but that it was anyone's guess in space, but maybe not...
I was going to type up a reply earlier but my computer decided to randomly shut itself off.
Just known space during the time of the Galactic Empire in SW had over one million member systems and fifty million colonies. This is NOT including the Vong's portion of space, or Hutt space, or certain isolated sections. The estimate of sentient spacefaring races in SW is well over a million. Even if you assume for the sake of argument that each system and colony possessed a mere 1000 beings, this is a figure of 51.000.000.000. And that's with a real low estimate. This is a considerable force to reckon with, even if less than 45% of that is able to be put into an attacking force. I don't see the numbers on ST to compare with that. Last I checked the universal language translator had around 252 or so languages built into it. That's not a very diverse or expansive galaxy in ST (though to be fair, that is mostly Federation space which is a relatively small part. However, Starfleet's propulsion system has not been sufficient to explore even all of that. Just on a siderant, SW hyperdrive- which is the norm technology for almost all ships- far exceeds possible maintainable warp speeds used in most Federation or allied alien propulsion systems. While one could assume that Warp 10 is far faster, it is not installed on all ships. The technology needed to make that a reality is not in circulation, while the hyperdrive is on every damn bucket of rust in the SW galaxy)...
Phew... Sorry for the length.
Secondly, I see a lot of clamoring about ST high tech- well, SW has high tech in other areas as well. But more importantly, they have higher firepower ranges, and far more varied tech by far. Over a million different sentients, all making their own guns, their own ships, etc. SW ships are either far larger and more powerful than ST equivalents or smaller and far more agile. SW production outstrips ST. The second death star was made within months. Capitol ships in the Federation (Which are smaller than most SW capital ships) take quite some time to make (Like around 14 years, if I remember correctly.) I think ST supporters should be more realistic. This isn't going to be just one great big space battle and it's over; this is going to be a war. War takes time, planning, resources, and strategies.