Dark Phoenix vs Scarlet Witch

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]It's you. If you go pick up Quasar 37 and actually understood what the Celestials are the you wouldn't be so confused.

1) Quasar showed up to the court trial and was told about M-bodies. He then asked what about beings that have bodies like Galactus, Stranger, and Watcher. But even they sometimes use M-bodies to make an appearance without physically being there. It never specifies that Stranger, Watcher, and Galactus were using M-bodies at the court try. How hard is that to understand?

2) Celestials always use M-bodies. Go read up on the Celestials. Those armors are there M-bodies. How is that not Ziran? Every appearance Ziran makes is using his M-body. That's how Celestials are able to operate outside there universe.

3) If you agree that the IG is greater than all the abstracts then why are you acting as if that attack on the court meant nothing? That attack was no different from what Thanos stomped the abstracts when they fought.

4) If you want to claim that the abstracts were using M-bodies, then LT was using an M-body too. Prove he wasn't. Who ever says LT has to show up either if Galactus and Stranger don't want to show there to self. So basically LT's M-body sat there and shut down that attack when all other abstracts where on the defense or getting blasted.

Dude this is why 'debating' with you is annoying. It's either they were all M-bodies or only the abstractions were M-bodies. If they were all M-bodies, then the LT's "show of power" was a joke (since the actual "real" beings weren't thrown around) and it can't be used as a "high showing".

If it was only the abstractions that had M-bodies, then my point stands that Ziran tanked that blast like a champ.

Hahaha, with this point let's just agree that you are ignorant of the Tribunal. I'm sure you find that many Marvel characters hold creators of universes in there hand or is told by a being possessing TOAA's power as the top of the cosmic food chain.

Speaking of ignorant, you were the one that said

He did make Surfer into a universe. He turned Surfer into a universe - an entire cosmos inside of him. Not the same thing.

He did no such thing.

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So it's very probable, based on what we've seen ON PANEL of the LT's "power", the images were representations and not their actuality.

Thanks for pointing out your ignorance yet again. The Tribunal isn't the Spectre. Where are you even getting this nonsense of an argument? He his mere presence killed off Zom, a being that required Eternity to imprison. The majority of abstracts don't have the power to even challenge him hence why they never bother.

As pointed out by another poster, Zom was having difficulty killing Strange. So how is this a high showing for the LT?

LMAO. Please just stop.

No, YOU stop. Unless you can produce on panel evidence of the LT : busting galaxies and igniting long dead stars or shaking the multiverse, then drop it.

What scan are we talking about? Did some use the gems in another universe and it failed for you to make such a conclusion?

Yup and GS was kind enough to provide them. He also provided recent scans stating the Gems get their power from the Big Bang. So you piece it all together.....

How should it be my problem? The Phoenix Force is one of the most inconsistent of the abstracts.

True. But it's always been shown as at least "universe level buster" power level. Which is more than I can say for any other "omnipotent" not using the HotI or the UN.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

What does it matter? The point is that the Phoenix Force would get stomped. If not outright killed than it'll be shattered into a billion pieces and hide in the White Hot Room like the pathetic entity it is to recover.

Oh but it does matter. It was shown on panel that even harming it critically, since it wasn't dead yet, is enough to destroy all the stars in the universe.

So if Xorn shattered it into a billion piceces and creation was unfazed, we have a major contradiciton on our hands.

They did put it in his mouth. What they've never stated is that being the big bang gives the Force more power or power over the other abstracts. So what if it's the big bang. And Entropy the is collapse of everything in the universe, the opposite of the Big Bang.

But the PF is also. It burns away "that which doesn't work" and brings about new life. Death and Galactus confirmed on panel that the PF can destroy and remake a universe and this was the "natural order of things". PF > Entropy.

But you're going to ignore what it says about Eternity and the Tribunal huh? Especially the part about LT being Supreme in the multiverses.

IF they had stopped at the LT, I would agree with you but they didn't did they? On their journey they went to the next layer above the LT himself and came right back to the beginning. Hence that's why the "first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities" is a HUGE nod to the PF.

Aopzop dont listen to WWK

As stated within LT's handbook entry, he made Silver Surfer one with the universe:

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Ive told this to WWK before however he is very selective in what evidence he chooses to acknowledge.

None of his points are new and they've been countered previously over the years. Thats why he knows better than to debate with me 🙂

Originally posted by zopzop
Dude this is why 'debating' with you is annoying. It's either they were all M-bodies or only the abstractions were M-bodies. If they were all M-bodies, then the LT's "show of power" was a joke (since the actual "real" beings weren't thrown around) and it can't be used as a "high showing".

It's not either or. The problem is that you can't even grasp the fact that Celestials use M-bodies. Prove that Galactus was using an M-body and not his actual self. Where does it say he was using his an M-body? You can't.

If it was only the abstractions that had M-bodies, then my point stands that Ziran tanked that blast like a champ.

Tanked? If not for LT stopping that attack, Ziran would've been would like everyone. He was helpless to do anything. Twice did brace when the Gauntlet's power was activated and you're going to say he tanked it? And the fact that you want to argue that it was shown on panel and therefore should be accepted, then why the hell are you crying contradiction when Phoenix was shattered into a billion pieces and the universe died not die?

Speaking of ignorant, you were the one that said

He did no such thing.

And neither did Phoenix, same shit and it was dropped already.

So it's very probable, based on what we've seen ON PANEL of the LT's "power", the images were representations and not their actuality.

Probably is you're argument? Show me proof. Since you like handbooks, I gave you a scan and no where does it say representation. Stop stuff with this nonsense when no where does it say it wasn't the actual beings. They were puppets to create realities and allowed by the Tribunal. The handbook it says he has a hand in there creation. Either you have proof that it was a representation or you stuff making false accusations.

As pointed out by another poster, Zom was having difficulty killing Strange. So how is this a high showing for the LT?

First off, everybody has difficulty taking down Strange including the In-Betweener. It's impressive because Zom killed the Ancient One to Strange's shock. Strange did NOTHING to Zom and saved by the Tribunal. There was no fight, it ended as soon as LT showed up. How is that not impressive when this same being required Eternity to trap it eons ago, chase off Umar at the mere presence, killed Strange's master, and had Strange on the rope?

No, YOU stop. Unless you can produce on panel evidence of the LT : busting galaxies and igniting long dead stars or shaking the multiverse, then drop it.

No, you stop. TOAA has no feat of his own but are you going to argue that it isn't the supreme being of the MU would not rape the Phoenix Force if the two fought? Odin shaking the multiverse means jack to LT because Odin has had trouble with Surtur most of the time. They're peers. And Surtur is a mere elemental that has had trouble with Ymir. Both are who are far below Galactus who's fight with Agamotto was wrecking dimensions. Doom with Galactus' power beat Odin down. He doesn't have to shake the multiverse because most of the time he isn't fighting anybody. There's next to no power to challenge him. This is the Tribunal who shows up to rare circumstances, not Galactus or the emotionless Phoenix Force who feels the need to bother organic life so it can feel something. He has to shake to multiverse to prove he's more powerful than Odin? lol

Yup and GS was kind enough to provide them. He also provided recent scans stating the Gems get their power from the Big Bang. So you piece it all together.....

That's funny since I provided scans from the actual book and from a handbook and yet you try to claim the Brothers were merely representations and not the real thing with no proof. Also being linked to the Gems still has in no way provided it protection from being destroyed by Galactus or Xorn and a bunch of other low level techs. It's durability is among the worse and you know it.

True. But it's always been shown as at least "universe level buster" power level. Which is more than I can say for any other "omnipotent" not using the HotI or the UN.

It may have universal busting powers but it's still susceptible to being destroyed and manipulated. In a fight, it can be and HAS BEEN beaten down. You can make no such claim regarding LT except when Thanos had the power of TOAA.

Originally posted by zopzop
Oh but it does matter. It was shown on panel that even harming it critically, since it wasn't dead yet, is enough to destroy all the stars in the universe.

It was shown on panel that Ziran got stomped by the Gauntlet. It's said by Thanos that the entities that fought him before were merely foot soldiers of Eternity. It's also said on panel that the Celestials came from Eternity's dream. But you wanna ignore that and claim Ziran was more powerful than the other entities when he stood for moment against the IG's power and was saved by LT. Funny stuff.

So if Xorn shattered it into a billion piceces and creation was unfazed, we have a major contradiciton on our hands.

No we don't. Since you want to claim Ziran is actually more powerful than Eternity because of on panel feat. There is no contradiction then. The Excalibur issue was about a decade before the Xorn appearance. So that Xorn appearance retcons things, destroying the Phoenix Force does NOT wreck havoc upon the universe.

But the PF is also. It burns away "that which doesn't work" and brings about new life. Death and Galactus confirmed on panel that the PF can destroy and remake a universe and this was the "natural order of things". PF > Entropy.

First off, the Phoenix Force can die. Did you miss that Genis arc where Eternity dies? Genis creates a big bang by killing Entropy who then becomes Eternity. It's a cycle. The Phoenix Force doesn't sit around and remake the universe. It dies with the universe when everything collapses unto itself. When the Phoenix Force rises again through another big bang, the universe expanse once more and the other entities come into being in the new cycle. Hence why it's not above the other abstracts. It's part of the cycle as stated by Galactus, Death, Kubik, and the Strange. It's why Stranger calls it the resurrection force. When the universe dies, so too does the force. How hard is that to understand?

IF they had stopped at the LT, I would agree with you but they didn't did they? On their journey they went to the next layer above the LT himself and came right back to the beginning. Hence that's why the "first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities" is a HUGE nod to the PF.

Lol. You have no idea what the world supreme means huh? Even when it's spelled out to you. Even when a being possessing TOAA's power tells you.

Enough of this nonsense. You have a problem with LT not having on panel evidence but then you bring up this nonsense as your proof that the Phoenix Force is more power than LT?

Let's go with on panel evidence than. The Tribunal held creators of reality in his hand. He stopped and reverse Warlock's attack and had Warlock in shock. He's never lost a fight except against TOAA.

The Phoenix Force can blow up a universe in a What If? lol Would have been killed by Galactus but was spared. Was shattered and severely weakened by a mutant named Xorn. Was trapped by an alien vessel then used it as fuel. lol. Was beaten back by two Earth teams. Was dragged out from the White Hot Room by Shi'ar tech.

So what if the Phoenix Force can burn away timelines? So what if the Phoenix can blow up a universe it a What If? So what does it matter that the Force is linked to the Gems. None of that has stopped it from getting stomped. It's highest attack will do what to a being that exist simutaneously in and judges over multiverses? Again, it may be powerful but the Phoenix Force's durability sucks. Are you going to deny on panel evidence that Galactus could've killed it or that Xorn put it's main host into the grave until this very day? Where is Jean Grey? Where? It got shattered into a BILLION PIECES but you think it's going to a match against LT? Have you ever seen LT being used like a fuel source? Galactus? Sure. Phoenix Force? Yup. So go ahead and keep saying it's the greatest of the cosmic entities but next time when it shows up in the comics don't be shocked when it gets stomped by some random mutant or alien weaponry. It's not new, so deal with it.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It's not either or. The problem is that you can't even grasp the fact that Celestials use M-bodies. Prove that Galactus was using an M-body and not his actual self. Where does it say he was using his an M-body? You can't.

It is common knowledge that physical beings can make use of M Bodies and that Galactus has done so and did so in that confrontation with Adam. You are not as well read as you would like to believe:

This scan specifically talks about Galactus

This scan shows his Mbody during Adams trial:

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Tanked? If not for LT stopping that attack, Ziran would've been would like everyone. He was helpless to do anything. Twice did brace when the Gauntlet's power was activated and you're going to say he tanked it? And the fact that you want to argue that it was shown on panel and therefore should be accepted, then why the hell are you crying contradiction when Phoenix was shattered into a billion pieces and the universe died not die?

LT restored order after the blast had blasted away those whose Mbodies weren't strong enough to withstand the blast. Do not speculate. The attack happened, Ziran withstood it, LT restored order. Thats all we were shown.

As i have shown quite conclusively and as you continue to ignore, the firebird does not equate to the totality of the Force. The Firebird is just a manifestation of the sentience of the Force as opposed to a host tapping the Forces power.

As i shown there can be many firebirds in operation simultaneously and each of these avatars is still referred to as the Phoenix Force. Just like a cup of water taken away from an ocean of the stuff is still referred to as water, however exponentially less in scale it is from its source.

The Phoenix Force amongst other things is the sum and substance of all that is. E equals MC squared. As the Big Bang the Phoenix isnt just energy, isnt just life but all matter within reality. The actually physical sentient creation energy, whereas Eternity is a concept given meaning by the Big Bang and he embodys all along the timeline that came into existence following the Big Bang from which he draws power.

The full Phoenix Force has never been shattered, defeated or belittled on panel. Only avatars and hosts possessing a fraction of its power. Hence its varying performance on panel is understandable.

The Grey family are tied to the Phoenix Force through their genetics, it is nature for them to be one as stated by Death and the cosmics on more than one occasion(Excalibur and Classic X-men) So when Galactus tried to rupture that bond, he was going against the natural order that Phoenix manifests to perpetuate therefore the stars that the Phoenix Force fuels were put at risk.

Simply shattering a firebird avatar is nothing on that scale, it can easily reform at its own pace as shown on panel. Because by canon it is mutable, indestructible lifeforce. Thats the difference.

Your arguments as ever are weak.

ZopZop is handling you just fine. I would destroy you.

Continue to ignore me 🙂

Scarlet Witch as the Nexus or which one?

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It was shown on panel that Ziran got stomped by the Gauntlet. It's said by Thanos that the entities that fought him before were merely foot soldiers of Eternity. It's also said on panel that the Celestials came from Eternity's dream. But you wanna ignore that and claim Ziran was more powerful than the other entities when he stood for moment against the IG's power and was saved by LT. Funny stuff.

Nope. Just shows that Adams attack wasnt lethal or an attempt to kill. Mbodys can be instilled with a varying degree of power depending on the entitys wishes. If Ziran gets stomped by the IG in reality, but he can withstand a blast from it in his Mbody then that can mean only one thing, the others didnt instill their Mbodys with anywhere near their full power(they were just attending a trial after all) this would explain Eternitys comments about how he could shrug off Adams attacks in his totality. Why? Because they werent killing blasts. He was just throwing around Mbodys. Ziran for whatever reason, maybe as a precaution has more of his essence in his making him powerful enough to stand up against Adams attack. Same with LT.

LT isnt always so smart as his confrontation with Reeds energy canon shows:

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😱 😂

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
No we don't. Since you want to claim Ziran is actually more powerful than Eternity because of on panel feat. There is no contradiction then. The Excalibur issue was about a decade before the Xorn appearance. So that Xorn appearance retcons things, destroying the Phoenix Force does NOT wreck havoc upon the universe.

It does no such thing. Your ignorance on the character has just lead to misunderstanding.

Xorn shattered a fragment of the Phoenix Force. Galactus was disrupting the Forces presence in the universe by tearing it from the host it was manifesting through. He was disrupting nature, Phoenix is a primal force of nature so the stars of reality that derive from it started to die. Do you understand now? 🙂

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
First off, the Phoenix Force can die. Did you miss that Genis arc where Eternity dies? Genis creates a big bang by killing Entropy who then becomes Eternity. It's a cycle. The Phoenix Force doesn't sit around and remake the universe. It dies with the universe when everything collapses unto itself. When the Phoenix Force rises again through another big bang, the universe expanse once more and the other entities come into being in the new cycle. Hence why it's not above the other abstracts. It's part of the cycle as stated by Galactus, Death, Kubik, and the Strange. It's why Stranger calls it the resurrection force. When the universe dies, so too does the force. How hard is that to understand?

First off, dont try and tell us the Phoenix Force can die when Marvel has stated many a time even in the very latest handbook which came out like 2 months ago that it cant. Who do you think you are?

The Phoenix Force is pure, mutable cosmic life force. Energy cant be destroyed only transferred from state to state. As shown on panel the Forces representations can be shattered, absorbed and used as fuel and then the avatars can come out at the other end completely intact.

Genis blowing up Entropy and thereby the universe to trigger another Big Bang doesnt harm or demote the Phoenix Forces role at all. Understand the difference between the natural order and artificiality.

The Phoenix Force cannot and does not die, it is creation energy that is not fully encompassed at a universal level. The raw energies that makes up its being go through different states in the creation cycle but it is a constant. The expansion and collapse of its very substance is the creation cycle. By the natural order the Phoenix perpetuates this cycle:

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Reality in Marvel isnt going to properly end anytime soon for obvious reasons, probably never, so the only way we are going to see the universe end or begin is through artificial intervention. Have some common sense.

Youre not stupid, just incredibly biased.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Let's go with on panel evidence than. The Tribunal held creators of reality in his hand. He stopped and reverse Warlock's attack and had Warlock in shock. He's never lost a fight except against TOAA

LT simply holding creators of a reality in his hand means nothing conclusive. Creations can go on to be something bigger and greater than the creator. An engineer can hold a top of the range rocket launcher in his hand that hes helped design and craft. Granted that the Brothers were letting off energy that could by on panel statement destroy galaxies, that means nothing, no ones arguing that LT isnt above galaxy destroying level. Im just saying your evidence and interpretations are poor and you need to learn the difference between conclusive evidence and ambiguous scenes coupled with your fantasy.

LT has been shown to be fallible, his efforts have been thwarted and he has admitted there is a limit to how far hes willin to go in confrontations(Korvas shrugged off his "ultimate punishment" resulting in LT fleeing the scene)

LT's Mbody has been destroyed (by Reeds energy cannon)

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The Phoenix Force can blow up a universe in a What If? lol Would have been killed by Galactus but was spared. Was shattered and severely weakened by a mutant named Xorn. Was trapped by an alien vessel then used it as fuel. lol. Was beaten back by two Earth teams. Was dragged out from the White Hot Room by Shi'ar tech.

Jean Grey just one of the Forces many hosts manipulated all that is 616 at an atomic level. A faaaar greater feat than merely blowing up a universe

As stated in handbooks it was Phoenix(RACHEL) who would have been killed NOT the Phoenix Force. Galactus also stated that the device would just separate the Force from Rachel. Therefore do not try and enforce your contradictory opinion on us.

A manifestation of the Force was shattered. As ive shown on panel, many such representations can exist simultaneously and each one is still referred to as the Force because they are parts of the same being. All what happened in Warsong was as shown and stated attributable to a fragment of the Force and yet if you look at the handbook the actions taken go under the Phoenix Force reference.
Be objective, put things in context.

Once again an avatar of the Force was trapped by an alien vessel and said avatar was said to be weaker in that reality because it was a fragment of the Big Bang away from its main body (Plot device)

As for being dragged from the White Hot Room. This wasnt the full force just a representation of its sentience as stated by itself, it was a fragment of the whole in the 1st issue. the totality of the Force is the energies of creation, if it was to manifest all of its being in that firebird form then there would be no reality anywhere else.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So what if the Phoenix Force can burn away timelines? So what if the Phoenix can blow up a universe it a What If? So what does it matter that the Force is linked to the Gems. None of that has stopped it from getting stomped. It's highest attack will do what to a being that exist simutaneously in and judges over multiverses? Again, it may be powerful but the Phoenix Force's durability sucks. Are you going to deny on panel evidence that Galactus could've killed it or that Xorn put it's main host into the grave until this very day? Where is Jean Grey? Where? It got shattered into a BILLION PIECES but you think it's going to a match against LT? Have you ever seen LT being used like a fuel source? Galactus? Sure. Phoenix Force? Yup. So go ahead and keep saying it's the greatest of the cosmic entities but next time when it shows up in the comics don't be shocked when it gets stomped by some random mutant or alien weaponry. It's not new, so deal with it.

The Force isnt linked to the gems, it is the Big Bang that they draw power from. Theyre linked to the Force.

Your points on its durability all refer to mere fragments of the Force and in times when it wasnt even in battle. When in battle it can bolster a physical form to be as durable as it desires or in its energy state as mutable energy it is completely indestructible. Expand your limited comprehension of durability beyond a physical form and acknowledge that as mutable life force that can be shattered, used as fuel, atomized and keep on coming. Its durability is top tier.

Furthermore LT has never manifested in an mbody thats done anything significant. Hes been defeated, hes stated and demonstrated theres limits to how much energy hes willing to employ in battle, hes been destroyed. Be objective.

The Living Tribunal had an M-body that gave Protege its powers, M-bodies can, at any given time, take the full strength of the entities using them. I hope we all agree 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
LT simply holding creators of a reality in his hand means nothing conclusive. Creations can go on to be something bigger and greater than the creator. An engineer can hold a top of the range rocket launcher in his hand that hes helped design and craft. Granted that the Brothers were letting off energy that could by on panel statement destroy galaxies, that means nothing, no ones arguing that LT isnt above galaxy destroying level. Im just saying your evidence and interpretations are poor and you need to learn the difference between conclusive evidence and ambiguous scenes coupled with your fantasy.

Although I agree wtih majority what you said, but not here. You are wrong here.

What you said is about desinging, not creating. Creating is literally creating. If brothers did create it (as said in BIO), then that reality is not only bigger then them, but realities depends on them. If someone creates, then those realites (matter, energy, everything) resided within them. If he held brothers, then he literally held the power of those creations, if they are creators of those realites and not only desingers.

And in this case if we go by handbooks (for Brothers), it is said they created. So TOAA gave them role to create and that means that creation depends on them. Their role for those realities.
So when LT held them, he held the power of those realities, becuase this isn't talking only designing, like you said about example of engineer.
It's also said that Megaverse is a reality outside of mainstrem Multiverse, but it's also said that each Megaverse is more than a single Multiverse.

But in the end, the point is that no one in Marvel nor full Phoenix Force or anyone else are creators. They didn't create anything.
TOAA already gave them matter to desing and shape and role to each one of them.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It's not either or. The problem is that you can't even grasp the fact that Celestials use M-bodies. Prove that Galactus was using an M-body and not his actual self. Where does it say he was using his an M-body? You can't.

Tanked? If not for LT stopping that attack, Ziran would've been would like everyone. He was helpless to do anything. Twice did brace when the Gauntlet's power was activated and you're going to say he tanked it? And the fact that you want to argue that it was shown on panel and therefore should be accepted, then why the hell are you crying contradiction when Phoenix was shattered into a billion pieces and the universe died not die?

Omg you've stopped making sense or we've crossed our wires and now we're just confusing each other. My whole point was that it was impressive that Ziran tanked that NON-LETHAL IG blast that sent other M-bodied abstractions and non-m-bodied cosmics flying. That's it.

If they were all M-bodies as you say, by bringing up the Quasar issue, then it's not impressive at all. And the LT snapping his fingers to restore a bunch of glorified mannequins to their place is a meaningless "show of power" and can't be counted as on panel evidence of his "power".

And neither did Phoenix, same shit and it was dropped already.

Fine. This yet another "high showing" by the LT that really isn't, the other being restoring order after Adam blasted away cardboard copies of the abstracts and cosmics (this is according you and that Quasar issue).

Probably is you're argument? Show me proof. Since you like handbooks, I gave you a scan and no where does it say representation. Stop stuff with this nonsense when no where does it say it wasn't the actual beings. They were puppets to create realities and allowed by the Tribunal. The handbook it says he has a hand in there creation. Either you have proof that it was a representation or you stuff making false accusations.

Uhm from what we've seen of his power, I'm skeptical. Unless you can prove to me they were their actualities he held in his hand and not just representations, I'm still not convinced.

First off, everybody has difficulty taking down Strange including the In-Betweener. It's impressive because Zom killed the Ancient One to Strange's shock. Strange did NOTHING to Zom and saved by the Tribunal. There was no fight, it ended as soon as LT showed up. How is that not impressive when this same being required Eternity to trap it eons ago, chase off Umar at the mere presence, killed Strange's master, and had Strange on the rope?

Yet he still couldn't put Strange down! Don't you see this? Strange was actually doing pretty well escaping Zom's attacks and defending himself.

No, you stop. TOAA has no feat of his own but are you going to argue that it isn't the supreme being of the MU would not rape the Phoenix Force if the two fought? Odin shaking the multiverse means jack to LT because Odin has had trouble with Surtur most of the time. They're peers. And Surtur is a mere elemental that has had trouble with Ymir. Both are who are far below Galactus who's fight with Agamotto was wrecking dimensions. Doom with Galactus' power beat Odin down. He doesn't have to shake the multiverse because most of the time he isn't fighting anybody. There's next to no power to challenge him. This is the Tribunal who shows up to rare circumstances, not Galactus or the emotionless Phoenix Force who feels the need to bother organic life so it can feel something. He has to shake to multiverse to prove he's more powerful than Odin? lol

Odin has "trouble" with a being that shattered a galaxy to merely forge his sword? Fine I'll accept that. LT had trouble using a mere nova to kill an Earth bound foe. See the difference? We have ON PANEL evidence of Odin destroying galaxies and igniting stars as a mere after-effect of his battles and shaking the multiverse and threatening all reality. What do we have ON PANEL for the LT?

That's funny since I provided scans from the actual book and from a handbook and yet you try to claim the Brothers were merely representations and not the real thing with no proof. Also being linked to the Gems still has in no way provided it protection from being destroyed by Galactus or Xorn and a bunch of other low level techs. It's durability is among the worse and you know it.

All I know is both those "PF death" stories can't be right. It clear as day they are contradictory.

It may have universal busting powers but it's still susceptible to being destroyed and manipulated. In a fight, it can be and HAS BEEN beaten down. You can make no such claim regarding LT except when Thanos had the power of TOAA.

We have very little on panel anything for the LT despite being around since the late 60's. The best we've seen from him is his "nova blast" and we all saw how that turned out.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]It was shown on panel that Ziran got stomped by the Gauntlet. It's said by Thanos that the entities that fought him before were merely foot soldiers of Eternity. It's also said on panel that the Celestials came from Eternity's dream. But you wanna ignore that and claim Ziran was more powerful than the other entities when he stood for moment against the IG's power and was saved by LT. Funny stuff.

No we don't. Since you want to claim Ziran is actually more powerful than Eternity because of on panel feat. There is no contradiction then. The Excalibur issue was about a decade before the Xorn appearance. So that Xorn appearance retcons things, destroying the Phoenix Force does NOT wreck havoc upon the universe.

We've crossed our wires again.

And no Xorn's appearance doesn't retcon things if the handbook that you so lovingly mention and bring up states that Galactus "killing" the PF cause the stars to die out. Again you can't have it both ways.

First off, the Phoenix Force can die. Did you miss that Genis arc where Eternity dies? Genis creates a big bang by killing Entropy who then becomes Eternity. It's a cycle. The Phoenix Force doesn't sit around and remake the universe. It dies with the universe when everything collapses unto itself. When the Phoenix Force rises again through another big bang, the universe expanse once more and the other entities come into being in the new cycle. Hence why it's not above the other abstracts. It's part of the cycle as stated by Galactus, Death, Kubik, and the Strange. It's why Stranger calls it the resurrection force. When the universe dies, so too does the force. How hard is that to understand?

The PF can "die" and remake itself and all reality. Your point? The PF is the big bang stated by Reed on panel. I know it's hard to accept but unless you can provide another more recent scan stating otherwise, you can go pound sand (as they say) 😛

Lol. You have no idea what the world supreme means huh? Even when it's spelled out to you. Even when a being possessing TOAA's power tells you.

Why are you dodging? They said the most supreme power then what happens? They transcend BEYOND him and wind up right back at the beginning. Hence why that "first and in many was the greatest" comment is huge but you refuse to accept what's on panel.

Enough of this nonsense. You have a problem with LT not having on panel evidence but then you bring up this nonsense as your proof that the Phoenix Force is more power than LT?

Let's go with on panel evidence than. The Tribunal held creators of reality in his hand. He stopped and reverse Warlock's attack and had Warlock in shock. He's never lost a fight except against TOAA.

The Phoenix Force can blow up a universe in a What If? lol Would have been killed by Galactus but was spared. Was shattered and severely weakened by a mutant named Xorn. Was trapped by an alien vessel then used it as fuel. lol. Was beaten back by two Earth teams. Was dragged out from the White Hot Room by Shi'ar tech.

So what if the Phoenix Force can burn away timelines? So what if the Phoenix can blow up a universe it a What If? So what does it matter that the Force is linked to the Gems. None of that has stopped it from getting stomped. It's highest attack will do what to a being that exist simutaneously in and judges over multiverses? Again, it may be powerful but the Phoenix Force's durability sucks. Are you going to deny on panel evidence that Galactus could've killed it or that Xorn put it's main host into the grave until this very day? Where is Jean Grey? Where? It got shattered into a BILLION PIECES but you think it's going to a match against LT? Have you ever seen LT being used like a fuel source? Galactus? Sure. Phoenix Force? Yup. So go ahead and keep saying it's the greatest of the cosmic entities but next time when it shows up in the comics don't be shocked when it gets stomped by some random mutant or alien weaponry. It's not new, so deal with it.

We have no on panel evidence of anything in favor the LT really. The 'brothers' one is suspect and that cosmic court "finger snap' (according to information you provided yourself!) is meaningless.

We have the PF destroying entire universes under it's own power in two alternate realities (that's what What Ifs's are according to Marvel itself), we have on panel evidence in 616 equating the PF with the Big Bang, we have 616 on panel evidence of it devouring stars, holding universes and destroying entire timelines.

PS what does "durability" count for when you can resurrect yourself and all creation?

Originally posted by Xplosive
Although I agree wtih majority what you said, but not here. You are wrong here.

What you said is about desinging, not creating. Creating is literally creating. If brothers did create it (as said in BIO), then that reality is not only bigger then them, but realities depends on them. If someone creates, then those realites (matter, energy, everything) resided within them. If he held brothers, then he literally held the power of those creations, if they are creators of those realites and not only desingers.

And in this case if we go by handbooks (for Brothers), it is said they created. So TOAA gave them role to create and that means that creation depends on them. Their role for those realities.
So when LT held them, he held the power of those realities, becuase this isn't talking only designing, like you said about example of engineer.
It's also said that Megaverse is a reality outside of mainstrem Multiverse, but it's also said that each Megaverse is more than a single Multiverse.

Not true at all Xp.

Creations in some circumstances can go on to develop into something bigger and more powerful than the creator.

My engineer/scientist example still stands, i said "design and craft" . Scientists/engineers can together construct weapons that can wreck far greater havoc than they could do themselves.

Look at Black Celestial Galactus. He was a Galen bonded with his Eternity to make him into a Galactus however he developed through a series of events into something that was consuming his Eternity.

Unless youre the supreme being, or your creations are small parts of you that depend on you for power then simply being the creator of something doesnt automatically mean that you are greater than them.

Furthermore the comic says the Brothers are architects of realities which just means they design them, doesn't mean they create them and the actual handbook entry calls them guardians of a reality. Further demoting LT holding them in his hands after JOINTLY creating them with Spectre.

Adam Warlock was created by the scientific group the Enclave. He destroyed his creators 😬

Creating something doesnt necessarily make u greater than your creations. And if your creations go on to perform great feats that doesnt suddenly amp up the creators status unless the creations were tapping into the creators power to do so. The Brothers on panel were designers, by the handbook they were guardians, either way they are not by canon creators of anything.

DP wins.

Originally posted by Xplosive

It's also said that Megaverse is a reality outside of mainstrem Multiverse, but it's also said that each Megaverse is more than a single Multiverse.

XP i dealt with this megaverse misinterpretation of yours nearly a week ago, i typed up a comprehensive response and you never replied to it. Now youre repeating the same point i dealt with previously.

READ:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Xp i have told you this already and i do not want to repeat this.

The brothers were retconned into reality creators which that very issue said were created [B]jointly by LT and the Spectre.

Furthermore once again you have misinterpreted an official statement. The description from the handbook doesnt say a megaverse is bigger than a multiverse, because it isnt.

Once again i will explain what a megaverse is-

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/app8162.htm

A megaverse is a grouping for realities that do not share the same cosmology (abstracts/cosmic and mystical hierarchical structure) that all the realities within the main multiverse share. Examples would be the New Universe and Shadowline. However as these realities are more closely tied to Marvel and its multiverse, the term Megaverse was coined to refer to these realities and categorize them as Marvel property as opposed to them being linked to another comic companies multiverse.

However with the Marvel Vs DC crossover both companies multiverses were featured as each one of the Brothers. However the retcon saw that story as being ignored with the Brothers instead being demoted to guardians of each companies megaverse(comic properties that are outside their main multiverses but still tied to either marvel or dc). Thats what the handbook means, its letting you know that one Brother is guardian of Marvels megaverse, one of DC's(hence the joint collaboration between Spectre and LT making them) and with one megaverse being tied to Marvel and one being tied to DC they therefore encompass more than a single multiverse. These vaguely related comic properties encompass two, Marvels multiverse and DC's.

I've made that simple enough to understand. Please do not refer to the Brothers as megaverses again.

Please do not misinterpret official statements and tell me the megaverse is bigger than the multiverse.

😬 [/B]

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
XP i dealt with this megaverse misinterpretation of yours nearly a week ago, i typed up a comprehensive response and you never replied to it. Now youre repeating the same point i dealt with previously.

Were brothers already retconned when LT held them?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not true at all Xp.

Creations in some circumstances can go on to develop into something bigger and more powerful than the creator.

No, you are wrong. What you say, then that is not a creator.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
My engineer/scientist example still stands, i said "design [B]and craft" . Scientists/engineers can together construct weapons that can wreck far greater havoc than they could do themselves.[/B]

That is not a creator.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Look at Black Celestial Galactus. He was a Galen bonded with his Eternity to make him into a Galactus however he developed through a series of events into something that was consuming his Eternity.

Unless youre the supreme being, or your creations are small parts of you that depend on you for power then simply being the creator of something doesnt automatically mean that you are greater than them.

Only supreme beings can create and no one else. You confuse those things. There is no creator in MU other than TOAA (no exceptions). Everyone else just desings. If someone is the creator, no, those creations are not bigger than them.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
the creator of something doesnt automatically mean that you are greater than them.

Then that is not a creator. That is what you have to understand.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Creating something doesnt necessarily make u greater than your creations. And if your creations go on to perform great feats that doesnt suddenly amp up the creators status unless the creations were tapping into the creators power to do so. The Brothers on panel were designers, by the handbook they were guardians, either way they are not by canon creators of anything.

No, GS, you are simply wrong.
I didn't expect that someone like you wouldn't understand it or would confuse such things.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Furthermore the comic says the Brothers are architects of realities which just means they design them, doesn't mean they create them and the actual handbook entry calls them guardians of a reality. Further demoting LT holding them in his hands after JOINTLY creating them with Spectre.

Then this explains it. They are architects, not creators.
That is why I said already in my previous post that the point is that no one in MU is creator, but TOAA.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Adam Warlock was created by the scientific group the Enclave. He destroyed his creators

As I thought so. You confuse this things.
How can they be his creators, while they already had the given matter that depended already on someone else (TOAA) than on them (Enclave) to ''create'' Adam? Because they aren't creators.
He was created by TOAA, everyone in MU was. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Were brothers already retconned when LT held them?

No, you are wrong. What you say, then that is not a creator.

That is not a creator.

Only supreme beings can create and no one else. You confuse those things. There is no creator in MU other than TOAA (no exceptions). Everyone else just desings. If someone is the creator, no, those creations are not bigger than them.

Then that is not a creator. That is what you have to understand.

No, GS, you are simply wrong.
I didn't expect that someone like you wouldn't understand it or would confuse such things.

Then this explains it. They are architects, not creators.
That is why I said already in my previous post that the point is that no one in MU is creator, but TOAA.

As I thought so. You confuse this things.
How can they be his creators, while they already had the given matter that depended already on someone else (TOAA) than on them (Enclave) to ''create'' Adam? Because they aren't creators.
He was created by TOAA, everyone in MU was. Simple as that.

XP youre going off on a tangent here.

Let me rein you in once again 😉

Of course there can still be creators following the original creation event. It just means that the feat is less grand because the matter and energy used is borrowed and not generated anew. However they're still crafting that energy and matter into something that was not there before.

So as per the actual definition of being a creator(one who grows, makes or creates things) and not your personal definition, there can and have been creators since TOAA made the Big Bang which is the Phoenix Force.

By your definition TOAA made robots, cars and sex toys 😂

This is my whole point about dimensions and realities created by cube beings and so on. People try to equate them to actual universes created in the Big Bang event but they're not, they lack the cosmic hierarchy and are made from borrowed matter hence why they're termed pocket universes.

Im not entirely sure why you decided to bring this point up because the direction of this debate didn't really call for it, but whatever lol.

Going back to your 1st question The Brothers were retconned in that very issue from being embodiments of Marvel and DC's multiverses above all beings to far lower ranking cosmic entities created by the Spectre and LT to design and guard realities.

Originally posted by Bentley
The Living Tribunal had an M-body that gave Protege its powers, M-bodies can, at any given time, take the full strength of the entities using them. I hope we all agree 🙂

It isnt clear whether the Mbodys can tap into their totality and continually draw on might as required or whether once the fractals have formed themselves into an Mbody and the abstract in question has determined the amount of their totality they wish to instill in it that thats that.

Given how easily a Celestial stopped Protege after duplicating the powers of LT, given how LT fled from Korvac after claiming theres nothing else he could do, given how Reed destroyed LT's Mbody, it would appear to be the latter.

But who knows for definite? 😕

If anyone has any on panel confirmation of this matter be cool to see it 🙂

Originally posted by zopzop
Omg you've stopped making sense or we've crossed our wires and now we're just confusing each other. My whole point was that it was impressive that Ziran tanked that NON-LETHAL IG blast that sent other M-bodied abstractions and non-m-bodied cosmics flying. That's it.

Since when does anything have to be lethal to it to be impressive? You were hang onto Tyrants balls and not once did he kill ANY herald. It was an impressive feat. You act as if there are numerous appearances where the top abstracts and entites are swatted away casually.

If they were all M-bodies as you say, by bringing up the Quasar issue, then it's not impressive at all. And the LT snapping his fingers to restore a bunch of glorified mannequins to their place is a meaningless "show of power" and can't be counted as on panel evidence of his "power".

I didn't say they were all M-bodies. Don't put words on my mouth. Show proof that they were all using M-bodies or shut up about it. In that book, Quasar was told that the physical entities also using, not that they did during the trial. Quasar then steps through another door to find Eternity. Two different instances, nothing proving the physical entities were using M-bodies.

By the way, what other being has stomped such an attack? Of all three Gauntlet wielders the abstracts fought, which abstracts stopped such an attack?

Fine. This yet another "high showing" by the LT that really isn't, the other being restoring order after Adam blasted away cardboard copies of the abstracts and cosmics (this is according you and that Quasar issue).

So count how many characters stopped such an attack? And it's not according to me; you can't even read what I wrote. Please go back and show where I said they were definitely all using M-bodies. I never said such a thing.

Uhm from what we've seen of his power, I'm skeptical. Unless you can prove to me they were their actualities he held in his hand and not just representations, I'm still not convinced.

Why should I prove a negative? It says he's handling them both in his hands and the handbook says that as well. You want to make a claim against him holding the real things, you make your case. Where does it say he's holding representations of them? NOWHERE.

Yet he still couldn't put Strange down! Don't you see this? Strange was actually doing pretty well escaping Zom's attacks and defending himself.

Did Strange win? Because he beat the In-Betweener. You remember that? Strange also beat Mephisto and Satannish at the same time. What's your point? If you pick up a Strange book, you'd know he takes on these high end skyfather and abstracts all the time without getting killed. In fact, he fought Death in her realm and lasted. And lol at killing Ancient One isn't impressive.

Odin has "trouble" with a being that shattered a galaxy to merely forge his sword? Fine I'll accept that. LT had trouble using a mere nova to kill an Earth bound foe. See the difference? We have ON PANEL evidence of Odin destroying galaxies and igniting stars as a mere after-effect of his battles and shaking the multiverse and threatening all reality. What do we have ON PANEL for the LT?

Holding two megaversal beings in his hand. Had Eternity beg him for help because he was afraid Thanos would take over his place as the universe. Thanos with TOAA's power killed Ziran and held Eternity in his hand, yet he called LT the top power on the cosmic ladder. With Odin's death, most beings felt it while it was merely a whisper in the cosmic wind to the Tribunal. His death mattered little to the Tribunal. Lol. As for that nova bit, Odin did what to Thanos again? Throw asteroids at him and did what? Odin and Asgard has also lost a fight to giant alien ants and was on being sold off as a slave on there planet. lol

All I know is both those "PF death" stories can't be right. It clear as day they are contradictory.

lol. It's on panel. Seriously, for a guy that drags up What If's to use as feats for mainstream characters, you're going to whine about this? All you need to know is that the Force and it's host can be killed.

We have very little on panel anything for the LT despite being around since the late 60's. The best we've seen from him is his "nova blast" and we all saw how that turned out.

He's next best thing to the One Above All showing up in a book. The guy is essentially the most visible supreme being in Marvel. He isn't going to show up to everything like other characters. And that's why he isn't like the Spectre as I've told you.

The on panel evidence provided is more than enough. But you simply want to make false claims or ignore feats so you can go back to saying he doesn't have any feats. Lol. The best we've seen is his nova blast? Why does that make it the best? But he said it? He then closed off an entire universe? Outright stopped an attack that no entities present could? I mean, it's everyday you see Thanos with TOAA's power calling the Ziran or Phoenix Force the top power in the MU right?

Originally posted by zopzop
We've crossed our wires again.

And no Xorn's appearance doesn't retcon things if the handbook that you so lovingly mention and bring up states that Galactus "killing" the PF cause the stars to die out. Again you can't have it both ways.

The handbooks reference what happened. They don't affect continuity it. You can't grasp that huh? Either way, both show the Force can be killed. And you can't get away from that. That part isn't a contradiction.

The PF can "die" and remake itself and all reality. Your point? The PF is the big bang stated by Reed on panel. I know it's hard to accept but unless you can provide another more recent scan stating otherwise, you can go pound sand (as they say) 😛

If the Force can die and make reality reappear than why does Death say Galactus would stop the cycle of rebirth? Lol. It can die permanently at Galactus' hand. Xorn shattered it to near death and reality wasn't remade at all. And reality doesn't remake itself. WTF? It dies and collapse unto itself. Then eventually another big bang starts from that and a new universe is born from the old. Understanding the MU would help you make better arguments.

Why are you dodging? They said the most supreme power then what happens? They transcend BEYOND him and wind up right back at the beginning. Hence why that "first and in many was the greatest" comment is huge but you refuse to accept what's on panel.

On panel is what you want and that's what I'm giving you. The greatest of principality did nothing but get shattered into a billion pieces. The greatest of principality was hiding from the Shi'Ar. This great principality was being used as engine fuel for some random alien vessel. Say that as if it means something but most writers don't believe what you claim. In fact, most writers have never made such a claim about the Phoenix Force. So keep clinging to that one argument. But like I said, it's likely getting stomped again by some random alien tech the next it shows up.

We have no on panel evidence of anything in favor the LT really. The 'brothers' one is suspect and that cosmic court "finger snap' (according to information you provided yourself!) is meaningless.

We? Don't bring me and the rest of the board involved just because you don't accept what's being shown in mainstream comics.

We have the PF destroying entire universes under it's own power in two alternate realities (that's what What Ifs's are according to Marvel itself), we have on panel evidence in 616 equating the PF with the Big Bang, we have 616 on panel evidence of it devouring stars, holding universes and destroying entire timelines.

Most of this board keep telling you What Ifs don't count but you still bring this up. That's how much evidence you've got for the Phoenix Force. The big bang does what but give birth to the universe. Did this big bang power stop Xorn from shattering it? Galactus came from the big bang and channels power that come from it and yet he he the power to kill the Force. This big bang power did what when it faced the Goblin Force. You make it sound so impressive but being linked to the Infinity Gauntlet gave it none of the Gauntlet's powers.

PS what does "durability" count for when you can resurrect yourself and all creation?

It counts as a win on here when an opponent is K.O.ed or killed for a period of time. It's resurrection isn't instantaneous. It want into the White Hot Room to heal itself after that Xorn incident and didn't come out until it was dragged out by Shi'Ar tech. And apparently a lot considering if some like Galactus gets involved. He could've killed it permanently and ended the rebirth cycles.

So if LT and Phoenix Force met, I ask you yet again what does destroying time do to the Tribunal? Is it going to destroy the LT before his creation by the One Above All? I'd love to here you make that claim. It can blow up the universe and what does that matter to someone who exist throughout all universes in the MU simultaneously? The Tribunal channels an planetary EMP and shatters the Force. Or he just blinks alien armadas into the fight and the Force gets manipulated and turned into fuel. The Phoenix can do nothing to harm the LT while the Phoenix Force has been killed and manipulated by things less than a Cube Being in power.