Dark Phoenix vs Scarlet Witch

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]Since when does anything have to be lethal to it to be impressive? You were hang onto Tyrants balls and not once did he kill ANY herald. It was an impressive feat. You act as if there are numerous appearances where the top abstracts and entites are swatted away casually.

What the heck are you talking about. I even mentioned that Adam wasn't trying to "kill" any member of the Cosmic Court when he blasted them.

I didn't say they were all M-bodies. Don't put words on my mouth. Show proof that they were all using M-bodies or shut up about it. In that book, Quasar was told that the physical entities also using, not that they did during the trial. Quasar then steps through another door to find Eternity. Two different instances, nothing proving the physical entities were using M-bodies.

Again, what are you talking about? The only point I made was that it was impressive that Ziran tanked that blast while the other Abstracts and Cosmics were thrown around like rag dolls. Yes it was a non lethal IG blast but it was impressive that he held his ground while the others, excluding the LT, couldn't.

By the way, what other being has stomped such an attack? Of all three Gauntlet wielders the abstracts fought, which abstracts stopped such an attack?

A) If they were all M-bodies, then "stopping" such an attack is a meaningless show of power

B) If they weren't all M-bodies (but we see from the Quasar issue that they indeed were), then only Ziran and the LT held their ground. Eternity and the others were thrown about and helpless against it.

So count how many characters stopped such an attack? And it's not according to me; you can't even read what I wrote. Please go back and show where I said they were definitely all using M-bodies. I never said such a thing.

You provided a scan from an issue of Quasar basically stating they were! That and we have Eternity's comment before the court. He wouldn't lie to the LT, because he tried that once (I think it was in a Guardians of the Galaxy issue) and was caught out.

Why should I prove a negative? It says he's handling them both in his hands and the handbook says that as well. You want to make a claim against him holding the real things, you make your case. Where does it say he's holding representations of them? NOWHERE.

Where does it say he was ACTUALLY HOLDING THEM in his hands? Not their M-bodies or images representing them, but the Brothers in their actuality.

Did Strange win? Because he beat the In-Betweener. You remember that? Strange also beat Mephisto and Satannish at the same time. What's your point? If you pick up a Strange book, you'd know he takes on these high end skyfather and abstracts all the time without getting killed. In fact, he fought Death in her realm and lasted. And lol at killing Ancient One isn't impressive.

Fine, whatever. We'll count this as an LT feat. Happy?

Holding two megaversal beings in his hand. Had Eternity beg him for help because he was afraid Thanos would take over his place as the universe. Thanos with TOAA's power killed Ziran and held Eternity in his hand, yet he called LT the top power on the cosmic ladder. With Odin's death, most beings felt it while it was merely a whisper in the cosmic wind to the Tribunal. His death mattered little to the Tribunal. Lol. As for that nova bit, Odin did what to Thanos again? Throw asteroids at him and did what? Odin and Asgard has also lost a fight to giant alien ants and was on being sold off as a slave on there planet. lol

We don't know that he was holding the ACTUAL megaverses in his hands. The only feat we've seen from him on panel is his "ultimate punishment' making a star go nova. Big deal.

And it's not like Eternity isn't used to begging. He's begged the PF to save him from Bubonicus' plague.

Odin has more high end on panel feats than the LT, just face it bro.

lol. It's on panel. Seriously, for a guy that drags up What If's to use as feats for mainstream characters, you're going to whine about this? All you need to know is that the Force and it's host can be killed.

Yes it's "on panel" and that's the problem. We have it "on panel" were nearly killing it destroys all the stars in creation. Then we have it "on panel" nearly killing it causes no affect on the universe. One or both of these "PF killing" scenes is wrong.

He's next best thing to the One Above All showing up in a book. The guy is essentially the most visible supreme being in Marvel. He isn't going to show up to everything like other characters. And that's why he isn't like the Spectre as I've told you.

The on panel evidence provided is more than enough. But you simply want to make false claims or ignore feats so you can go back to saying he doesn't have any feats. Lol. The best we've seen is his nova blast? Why does that make it the best? But he said it? He then closed off an entire universe? Outright stopped an attack that no entities present could? I mean, it's everyday you see Thanos with TOAA's power calling the Ziran or Phoenix Force the top power in the MU right?

The "top power" in the MU needed to be saved by Scathan. The "top power" in the MU was over powered by the Protege. The "top power" of the MU needed to draw power from the Eye of Agamotto to pass judgment and imprison the Protege.

The "top power" of the MU didn't stop the attack. But undid the damage after the fact. Ziran didn't need any help from the looks of it too.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]The handbooks reference what happened. They don't affect continuity it. You can't grasp that huh? Either way, both show the Force can be killed. And you can't get away from that. That part isn't a contradiction.

How can it not be a contradiction when we have it on panel and in the handbook says that when Galactus did it, all the stars started to wink out of existence. Yet when Xorn did it, the universe yawned.

If the Force can die and make reality reappear than why does Death say Galactus would stop the cycle of rebirth? Lol. It can die permanently at Galactus' hand. Xorn shattered it to near death and reality wasn't remade at all. And reality doesn't remake itself. WTF? It dies and collapse unto itself. Then eventually another big bang starts from that and a new universe is born from the old. Understanding the MU would help you make better arguments.

You're contradicting yourself again.

On panel is what you want and that's what I'm giving you. The greatest of principality did nothing but get shattered into a billion pieces. The greatest of principality was hiding from the Shi'Ar. This great principality was being used as engine fuel for some random alien vessel. Say that as if it means something but most writers don't believe what you claim. In fact, most writers have never made such a claim about the Phoenix Force. So keep clinging to that one argument. But like I said, it's likely getting stomped again by some random alien tech the next it shows up.

Like the LT getting owned by Reed's canon? All characters have low showings but at least the PF has super high ones too. Unlike the LT.

We? Don't bring me and the rest of the board involved just because you don't accept what's being shown in mainstream comics.

You need to chillax.

Most of this board keep telling you What Ifs don't count but you still bring this up. That's how much evidence you've got for the Phoenix Force. The big bang does what but give birth to the universe. Did this big bang power stop Xorn from shattering it? Galactus came from the big bang and channels power that come from it and yet he he the power to kill the Force. This big bang power did what when it faced the Goblin Force. You make it sound so impressive but being linked to the Infinity Gauntlet gave it none of the Gauntlet's powers.

What If's do count for the sake of our discussions. What If's are nothing more than alternate realities. It was in an alternate future that saw the Protege hand the LT his ass and it's mentioned in the LT's bio.

Why would it need the IG powers? IG gets its powers from the Big Bang aka PF. Not the other way around.

It counts as a win on here when an opponent is K.O.ed or killed for a period of time. It's resurrection isn't instantaneous. It want into the White Hot Room to heal itself after that Xorn incident and didn't come out until it was dragged out by Shi'Ar tech. And apparently a lot considering if some like Galactus gets involved. He could've killed it permanently and ended the rebirth cycles.

Sure he could've (after Rachel went along willingly)and then died along with it. He feasts on living worlds, how many living worlds will there be when all the stars die out?

So if LT and Phoenix Force met, I ask you yet again what does destroying time do to the Tribunal? Is it going to destroy the LT before his creation by the One Above All? I'd love to here you make that claim. It can blow up the universe and what does that matter to someone who exist throughout all universes in the MU simultaneously? The Tribunal channels an planetary EMP and shatters the Force. Or he just blinks alien armadas into the fight and the Force gets manipulated and turned into fuel. The Phoenix can do nothing to harm the LT while the Phoenix Force has been killed and manipulated by things less than a Cube Being in power.

And the LT has been killed by Reed's tech and ran from Korvac. What's your point?

Originally posted by zopzop

We don't know that he was holding the ACTUAL megaverses in his hands. The only feat we've seen from him on panel is his "ultimate punishment' making a star go nova. Big deal.

Read my exchanges with Xplosive on the past two pages. WWK misinterpreted what a megaverse is just like XP did.

The megaverse is just the band of space that encompasses all marvel properties that arent within the multiverse(so the realities dont share the same cosmic hierarchy and structure) however they are more closely linked to marvel than another comic company. Thats all it is. Examples are the New Universe and Shadowline.

Heres what i said:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Xp i have told you this already and i do not want to repeat this.

The brothers were retconned into reality designers which that very issue said were created [B]jointly by LT and the Spectre.

Furthermore once again you have misinterpreted an official statement. The description from the handbook doesnt say a megaverse is bigger than a multiverse, because it isnt.

Once again i will explain what a megaverse is-

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/app8162.htm

A megaverse is a grouping for realities that do not share the same cosmology (abstracts/cosmic and mystical hierarchical structure) that all the realities within the main multiverse share. Examples would be the New Universe and Shadowline. However as these realities are more closely tied to Marvel and its multiverse, the term Megaverse was coined to refer to these realities and categorize them as Marvel property as opposed to them being linked to another comic companies multiverse.

However with the Marvel Vs DC crossover both companies multiverses were featured as each one of the Brothers. However the retcon saw that story as being ignored with the Brothers instead being demoted to guardians of each companies megaverse(comic properties that are outside their main multiverses but still tied to either marvel or dc). Thats what the handbook means, its letting you know that one Brother is guardian of Marvels megaverse, one of DC's(hence the joint collaboration between Spectre and LT making them) and with one megaverse being tied to Marvel and one being tied to DC they therefore encompass more than a single multiverse. These vaguely related comic properties encompass two, Marvels multiverse and DC's.

I've made that simple enough to understand. Please do not refer to the Brothers as megaverses again.

Please do not misinterpret official statements and tell me the megaverse is bigger than the multiverse.

😬 [/B]

The Brothers arent reality creators as per current continuity. Theyre architects of new realities. Architects dont construct they plan and design. Furthermore LT's handbook said they were in fact just guardians of new realities.

WWK is calling them megaversal beings without truly comprehending what the term means. 👇

LT holding the brothers in his hands means nothing even if it is the actual Brothers.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

Most of this board keep telling you What Ifs don't count but you still bring this up. That's how much evidence you've got for the Phoenix Force. The big bang does what but give birth to the universe. Did this big bang power stop Xorn from shattering it? Galactus came from the big bang and channels power that come from it and yet he he the power to kill the Force. This big bang power did what when it faced the Goblin Force. You make it sound so impressive but being linked to the Infinity Gauntlet gave it none of the Gauntlet's powers.

The Big Bang provides all the matter and energy that exists in reality. As LT stated in Quasar and Galactus stated in Excalibur(i can provide scans just being lazy 🙂 ) Universes are closes systems. The Big Bang is all the energy and matter that will ever naturally exist within reality, everything is derivative from the Big Bang. That

The Phoenix Forces very existence gives the Abstracts meaning. Yes it too was created and made the Big Bang, however it is still the creation power from which the abstracts and all within a universe derive.

Xorn shattered the Phoenix power that resided within Jean Grey, not the sum total of the Force because Jean did not and has never possessed that. Taking out a distracted host who wasnt even battling and was comforting Xorn is not a bad showing for the Phoenix Force.

As stated in Romas bio(Master Edition from the 90's) it was Rachel and not the Phoenix Force that was at risk. Galactus stated in that issue that he was just returning the force to the cosmos, so who are you to tell us that we should ignore what the comic is telling us is the case?

The Goblin Force consumed that realities active Phoenix avatar, but it never consumed the whole force because as the Big Bang that would have destroyed reality. Alternate universes are 616 up until their point of divergence. That point is made clear in most What If issues therefore the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang for all divergent realities. If the consumption of the Phoenix avatar never ended that reality, then it never consumed the sum total of that realities Phoenix manifestation. Simple. Plus as made quite clear in the Phoenixes bio and a number of on panel instances, the Force is totally indestructible. It can be absorbed and used as fuel and after being processed still come out unharmed. Its indestructible mutable life force. Deal with it 🙂

Dont try and twist continuity to fit in with your twisted Marvel fantasies. The Infinity Gems tap into the Big Bang for power. The Big Bang doesn't derive from the gems. Understand that.

Good attempt 😂

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It counts as a win on here when an opponent is K.O.ed or killed for a period of time. It's resurrection isn't instantaneous. It want into the White Hot Room to heal itself after that Xorn incident and didn't come out until it was dragged out by Shi'Ar tech. And apparently a lot considering if some like Galactus gets involved. He could've killed it permanently and ended the rebirth cycles.

The Force manifests through a host or as the sentient firebird to do Phoenix Work. However it is always around as the formless, ambient, cosmic life force of reality that flows through everything. A sentient manifestation not appearing until it was dragged out means nothing given that. Your point is redundant because the Force is still about and can manifest at will. There are multiple manifestations that can and do exist at once and yet they're all referred to as the Phoenix Force and anything these fragments do still go under the bio entry as actions by the Phoenix Force. Whilst Xorn had shattered one manifestation, across the galaxy another manifestation resided in the Blade of the Phoenix and interacted with Rachel and Korvus. That was there before and after the shattering. You have no point.

Once again, understand the character youre debating on, youre just wasting peoples time here. Youve been on these forums too long 😬

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So if LT and Phoenix Force met, I ask you yet again what does destroying time do to the Tribunal? Is it going to destroy the LT before his creation by the One Above All? I'd love to here you make that claim. It can blow up the universe and what does that matter to someone who exist throughout all universes in the MU simultaneously? The Tribunal channels an planetary EMP and shatters the Force. Or he just blinks alien armadas into the fight and the Force gets manipulated and turned into fuel. The Phoenix can do nothing to harm the LT while the Phoenix Force has been killed and manipulated by things less than a Cube Being in power.

LT's M Body has been shown to have limits, it is not infallible.

Reed Richards has destroyed one of his Mbodys with an energy canon. Unlike Phoenix it was against his will 😂

Originally posted by zopzop
What the heck are you talking about. I even mentioned that Adam wasn't trying to "kill" any member of the Cosmic Court when he blasted them.

So to you, it has to be lethal for it to be impressive? This is what i'm arguing against. just stop.

Again, what are you talking about? The only point I made was that it was impressive that Ziran tanked that blast while the other Abstracts and Cosmics were thrown around like rag dolls. Yes it was a non lethal IG blast but it was impressive that he held his ground while the others, excluding the LT, couldn't.

Great than it's an impressive feat for both. It's even more impressive since LT stopped the whole thing while Ziran had to cover his face in defense of the attack. LT just sat there and stared at the attack. LT is far more impressive during that showing and shocked even Warlock.

A) If they were all M-bodies, then "stopping" such an attack is a meaningless show of power

B) If they weren't all M-bodies (but we see from the Quasar issue that they indeed were), then only Ziran and the LT held their ground. Eternity and the others were thrown about and helpless against it.

If you read the actual book then you wouldn't have to resort to this stupid argument. Where did I ever say it's definitely all M-bodies at the court. Go bring me proof other wise you can't make the claim it's all M-bodies. Forgetting that, Ziran did nothing to cover his face and knelt down to hold his ground. LT sat there and just took that attack without bother to block anything until he decide to stop the attack. Ziran was HELPLESS. Impressive for Ziran but not as impressive as LT who actual restored the entire court including Ziran.

You provided a scan from an issue of Quasar basically stating they were! That and we have Eternity's comment before the court. He wouldn't lie to the LT, because he tried that once (I think it was in a Guardians of the Galaxy issue) and was caught out.

WTF? Give me the page number or quote the post where I provided the scan of Quasar. As for Eternity, he was talking about himself. There's no dispute regarding Eternity because abstracts don't have bodies to begin with. Did you expect the actual 616 universe to float about in the court as a plaintiff? I'll help you out since you don't have the book. In that issue, Quasar was told that the physical entities also use M-bodies and he sees Galactus, Infinity, and Eternity there. Then he LEAVES and steps through a door into the court of the Tribunal where he sees the cosmics. Nowhere does it say the cosmics in the court were all M-bodies. If you have proof they were all M-bodies, bring it. Don't speculate. You're whining about how LT is mostly speculation yet you merely have speculations here.

Where does it say he was ACTUALLY HOLDING THEM in his hands? Not their M-bodies or images representing them, but the Brothers in their actuality.

Where does it say Jean was holding the ACTUAL universe and not it's representation? You eat that up but whine about this? The Brothers are beings, not concepts. It flat out states he holds two incalculable brothers in his and prevented them from assuming there role as architects of new reality. If it was just representations, how the hell is he preventing them from assuming the destiny as architects of realities by just closing his hand? Is it that hard for you to understand things?

We don't know that he was holding the ACTUAL megaverses in his hands. The only feat we've seen from him on panel is his "ultimate punishment' making a star go nova. Big deal.

So explain to me how it is that he closed his hand and prevented these two brothers from assuming their pre-destined roles as architects of realities.

And it's not like Eternity isn't used to begging. He's begged the PF to save him from Bubonicus' plague.

Odin has more high end on panel feats than the LT, just face it bro.

So wait, Odin closed his hand and was able to stop two incalculably powerful beings from assuming there role as creators of new realities? I didn't know shaking the multiverse is a higher feat than preventing creators of realities from doing their job.

Yes it's "on panel" and that's the problem. We have it "on panel" were nearly killing it destroys all the stars in creation. Then we have it "on panel" nearly killing it causes no affect on the universe. One or both of these "PF killing" scenes is wrong.

Lol. Like I told you, the Phoenix Force is inconsistent and get be beaten down. Wrong or not, Jean is still dead and the Force was shattered into a billion pieces, weakened, and had to hide.

The "top power" in the MU needed to be saved by Scathan. The "top power" in the MU was over powered by the Protege. The "top power" of the MU needed to draw power from the Eye of Agamotto to pass judgment and imprison the Protege.

And thank goodness it was Scathan, because obviously Phoenix couldn't have done the job. Sure it was good to cure Eternity of an illness, but when the tops beings were going head to head you don't call Phoenix Force. Where was the first and greatest of principalities yet again? Phoenix isn't Protege. If it showed up, Protege would've just replicated Shi'Ar weapon or Galactus' tech and killed it. That's why I'm sure the entities/writer didn't want to bring it into this. This is Protege, not Xorn. lol

The "top power" of the MU didn't stop the attack. But undid the damage after the fact. Ziran didn't need any help from the looks of it too.

That's your belief. The guy stops an attack and then you say no. WTF? When it's right in front of your face. As for Ziran, Ziran didn't need any help because he's got things covered with both hands and knelt in defense, struggling to keep on his feet. He cover his face again when judgement was passed on Warlock. That Ziran is useless but then again Ziran got his ass kicked and was useless throughout the Infinity Gauntlet series. The only power than igored the IG's attack and just sat there was the Tribunal. Lol. LT's just sitting there and ignoring it while Ziran struggles. But you still admit it's an impressive feat, but it's more impressive for LT who actually fix things.

Originally posted by zopzop
How can it not be a contradiction when we have it on panel and in the handbook says that when Galactus did it, all the stars started to wink out of existence. Yet when Xorn did it, the universe yawned.

How can you say LT's greatest feat was that nova blast when he stopped an attack than floored a handful of the most powerful abstracts? You also ignore him one shotting a being that was going to consume reality.

And whether or not it's a contradiction, like you said it's happened on panel. The universe isn't going to be destroyed. The Force has been beaten down and that's not a contradiction. hahaha

Like the LT getting owned by Reed's canon? All characters have low showings but at least the PF has super high ones too. Unlike the LT.

LT has like two low showings and one against Reed Richards. Weren't you the one to hype Reed as the smartest man in MU? Reed taking LT out with a canon is still far more impressive than Phoenix getting used a fuel by some alien vessel or dragged about by Shi'Ar weaponry, unless you want to argue Shi'Ar has better tech the Reed. Has LT ever been killed before? Has LT been fuel for some alien vessel? Has LT been shattered into a billion pieces?

What If's do count for the sake of our discussions. What If's are nothing more than alternate realities. It was in an alternate future that saw the Protege hand the LT his ass and it's mentioned in the LT's bio.

It's not an alternate universe that you saw. The current Guardians of the Galaxy help create to the 31st century Guardians of the Galaxy. And GOTG 31st century was a mainstream book revolving around mainstream characters.

As for What If, where in the Phoenix Force's bio does it mention any of the feats of the What If? lol

Why would it need the IG powers? IG gets its powers from the Big Bang aka PF. Not the other way around.

lol. So how did this power save it from being turned into a fuel, shattered into a billion pieces, beaten back by two Earth teams, dragged out from the White Hot Room by the Shi'Ar. If what you're saying is true, then shouldn't the Force have mastery over all powers in the universe? Obviously that's not what most writers think. When an planetary EMP can shatter you into a billion pieces, you aren't impressive.

Sure he could've (after Rachel went along willingly)and then died along with it. He feasts on living worlds, how many living worlds will there be when all the stars die out?

Of course he could've, seeing as how Xorn with merely a planetary level EMP put Jean down or how the Shi'Ar tech dragged it across space out of it's stronghold. Rachel just knew the inevitable was going to happen and gave up.

And the LT has been killed by Reed's tech and ran from Korvac. What's your point?

The smartest guy in the MU according to you? Reed would own the Phoenix Force as well. You think he'd have a problem creating a device that absorbs the PF and use it to power his Galactus suit or Negative Zone prison. It's what Reed does. Owning abstracts and the likes is what Reed and his foe Doom does. It's what they're good at, like the Phoenix Force is good at getting trashed by random alien vessels and noob X-characters. lol.

What's my point? My point is all that power the Phoenix Force has it and it's been stomped by far less. You don't have to be that far up the cosmic chain to be down the Phoenix Force in a fight. The point is most writers don't view the Force as being that powerful especially when compared to LT. As from that Reed incident, what do you have really? Reed is a smart if not smarter than Doom. He other lost was against Thanos with TOAA's power. No real shame about that. As for Korvac, Korvac did nothing to LT. So what's your point? The Tribunal isn't the one that could've died at Galactus' hand or EMP into a billion pieces. LT did get beaten back by the X-Men and Ultra Force? It's the Phoenix Force that was on the receiving on and had to run and hide.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Of course there can still be creators following the original creation event. It just means that the feat is less grand because the matter and energy used is borrowed and not generated anew.

No they aren't. They are designers, architects on TOAA orders or his plans what to do further and he provides them all things. So they can't be creators. TOAA is the only creator with no exceptions. NO EXCEPTION.

PHOENIX FORCE IS NO CREATOR, not even an ounce, not even 0.000000000000000000000...1%.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
However they're still crafting that energy and matter into something that was not there before.

Answer:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Big Bang provides all the matter and energy that exists in reality.

And who created the Big Bang? On whom Big Bang depends?
So yes, TOAA is the only creator.

It only wasn't shaped into that there before, but the energy and matter was already given, which belongs to TOAA. So how can there be other creators than TOAA, when he is the only one who provides energy to all in MU.

So, it's not the PF creator, but TOAA. TOAA just gave PF a job. And PF cannot create (PF has already the given power, energy, matter given from someone else and it depends on someone else,... so it can never be a creator, it only goes with the given energy to shape a universe, to do its job on TOAA orders or TOAA plans),... why?..., because it's TOAA that empowers it to do things. So TOAA is the only creator. Anyone who does something, PF, LT etc... it's because TOAA empowers them, everyone and everything in MU. He is the only creator. Others aren't, only shapers, designers, architects, whatever you call it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So as per the actual definition of being a creator(one who grows, makes or creates things) and not your personal definition, there can and have been creators since TOAA made the Big Bang which is the Phoenix Force.

It's not my definition, but it just is. And here you is your answer. He created the Big Bang. He created it. So how can PF be a creator when it was created? It can't be. PF depends on TOAA and TOAA empowers it to do what to do and it only designes further and even that because TOAA empoweres to do it. Very simple.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By your definition TOAA made robots, cars and sex toys 😂

Again, not my defintion, but yes. All sex toys, cars in MU belongs to TOAA.
Why? Because it's his matter and energy. So they are his creations. Why? Because he created the matter that others just shaped it into cars, sex toys etc..., but the matter and the energy still remains his, no matter into what it was shaped and by whom, it still remain his, and are his creations. So when they shape it into something else, it still remains his creations. He only allows others to shape his matter, energy into anything they want, but it still remains his matter, energy, creations,... others are just designers (some on such small scale, someone on grand scale),... but yes, cars, sex toys are his creations.

If TOAA would decide not to provide them such things or empower them, PF can't do anything. PF wouldn't be able to do completely anything, becuase it's not a creator, but only designer empowerd by TOAA to do things on grand scale.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im not entirely sure why you decided to bring this point up because the direction of this debate didn't really call for it, but whatever lol.

You brought it up with creations being sometimes greator than creators, which is not true, because there is only one creator.

I just corrected you.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Read my exchanges with Xplosive on the past two pages. WWK misinterpreted what a megaverse is just like XP did.

No I didn't. I always said it's a reality outside of Multiverse. It's just that we don't how big it really is.

Originally posted by Xplosive
No they aren't. They are designers, architects on TOAA orders or his plans what to do further and he provides them all things. So they can't be creators. TOAA is the only creator with no exceptions. NO EXCEPTION.

PHOENIX FORCE IS NO CREATOR, not even an ounce, not even 0.000000000000000000000...1%.

Answer:

And who created the Big Bang? On whom Big Bang depends?
So yes, TOAA is the only creator.

It only wasn't shaped into that there before, but the energy and matter was already given, which belongs to TOAA. So how can there be other creators than TOAA, when he is the only one who provides energy to all in MU.

So, it's not the PF creator, but TOAA. TOAA just gave PF a job. And PF cannot create (PF has already the given power, energy, matter given from someone else and it depends on someone else,... so it can never be a creator, it only goes with the given energy to shape a universe, to do its job on TOAA orders or TOAA plans),... why?..., because it's TOAA that empowers it to do things. So TOAA is the only creator. Anyone who does something, PF, LT etc... it's because TOAA empowers them, everyone and everything in MU. He is the only creator. Others aren't, only shapers, designers, architects, whatever you call it.

It's not my definition, but it just is. And here you is your answer. He created the Big Bang. He created it. So how can PF be a creator when it was created? It can't be. PF depends on TOAA and TOAA empowers it to do what to do and it only designes further and even that because TOAA empoweres to do it. Very simple.

Again, not my defintion, but yes. All sex toys, cars in MU belongs to TOAA.
Why? Because it's his matter and energy. So they are his creations. Why? Because he created the matter that others just shaped it into cars, sex toys etc..., but the matter and the energy still remains his, no matter into what it was shaped and by whom, it still remain his, and are his creations. So when they shape it into something else, it still remains his creations. He only allows others to shape his matter, energy into anything they want, but it still remains his matter, energy, creations,... others are just designers (some on such small scale, someone on grand scale),... but yes, cars, sex toys are his creations.

If TOAA would decide not to provide them such things or empower them, PF can't do anything. PF wouldn't be able to do completely anything, becuase it's not a creator, but only designer empowerd by TOAA to do things on grand scale.

You brought it up with creations being sometimes greator than creators, which is not true, because there is only one creator.

I just corrected you.

No I didn't. I always said it's a reality outside of Multiverse. It's just that we don't how big it really is.

Xp. This is farcical quite frankly.

You've come up with this because i have corrected your misinterpretations at every turn and this is a last ditch attempt to not completely concede to me 🙂

Whatever differing opinions you may have about these comics, theres one thing neither of us can change and that is the English language. That is unfortunate for this poor argument of yours.

You have The Creator who is the Judeo/Christian/ Religious supreme being that is above all.

However you also have the 2nd definition of the word creator which is to grow, make or invent things.

You're confusing yourself here. No one is arguing that there is more than one supreme being. No one is arguing that any of these guys are the original creator. In fact ive said many times in this thread that the Phoenix Force itself was created as the Big Bang. So this whole farce is pointless 😆

However not being the supreme Being does not mean you cant create things.

Xp please dont make yourself look very silly by trying to go down this route. We all have access to dictionaries Xp do not try and tell us to ignore internationally recognized definitions in favour of your personal definition youre trying to enforce on us so that you can feel that you've successfully got a point in this debate 😉

There can be many creators, people who create things, however no other entity can be THE Creator and originator of all.

I can create a figure out of clay and i could be called A creator. I dont have to have generated the Big Bang to be called the creator of that shape. Thats not what the definition means.

To be a creator you do not have to be THE Creator. You just have to craft something into something that wasn't there before. Understand the difference between a creator and THE Creator. Youre not stupid.

No ones saying the Phoenix Force is the creator of reality, if you'd bothered to read the thread you wouldve seen that. However being created as the Big Bang(as i stated several times anyway) doesnt change the fact that all powers in reality derive from the Phoenix Force.

As for your point about the megaverse, YES you did misinterpret it. Dont make me quote you. Just be mature and accept you were wrong and lets move on. 🙂 You stated it was bigger than a multiverse and that the Brothers were Megaverses. I corrected you. Nothing wrong with that 🙂

No, you didn't correct me, because I didn't say that. You simply don't understand, even with such analyzing comics, more than anyone on this forum (because of PF obsession).

And you are the one who confuse things, what is so hard to understand. You simply don't understand it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
There can be many creators, people who create things, however no other entity can be THE Creator and originator of all.

However not being the supreme Being does not mean you cant create things.

Am no. No one can even move, nonethless create, if TOAA doesn't allow. They don't create anything. The smallest thing they do, moving, thinking, inventing (or in you case 2nd meaning of creating in dictionary) it's because of TOAA. Even when they invent, it's because of TOAA and you talk about them creating. Even them capable of inventing belongs to TOAA Ha. LOL
All creating and creation, living beings, inventing comes from TOAA.

They can't create things. Who cares about dictionary, you joker.

I saw enough of here, how much you understand it:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By your definition TOAA made robots, cars and sex toys 😂

Adam Warlock was created by the scientific group the Enclave. He destroyed his creators

If you would, you wouldn't be talking such nonsense.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I can create a figure out of clay and i could be called A creator.

You and your dictionary. LOL

You simply don't get it, literally. That is the problem.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
To be a creator you do not have to be THE Creator. You just have to craft something into something that wasn't there before. Understand the difference between a creator and THE Creator. Youre not stupid.

Saying ''You are not stupid'' to make yourself feel better. No one is stupid here. And you try to understand the difference.

I think you are the one who should get things clear about that.
I think it little hurts you, because it actually all goes to the TOAA, not PF.
Everything what PF did, it goes to TOAA, not PF. PF is what it is, only because TOAA chose it that way. Feats, feats, the praise goes to TOAA, not PF. TOAA can replace PF with smallest bacteria.
I think that bothers you.
The whole point of comics is that you should understand that.

You analyze so much what PF did and that... how impressive, while you never even got think that those impressive feats don't even belong to PF, but to TOAA.

TOAA creates, others can shape (or for your understanding, created for the second meaning in dictionary LOL) and even that it's because of TOAA.

Everything in MU has to do with TOAA and no one else. It seems these analizing never helped you much.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Xp please dont make yourself look very silly by trying to go down this route. We all have access to dictionaries Xp do not try and tell us to ignore internationally recognized definitions in favour of your personal definition youre trying to enforce on us so that you can feel that you've successfully got a point in this debate

Are you serious? You really think dictionary has anything to do with it?

And get that pride out of your ass, smartass.

There is no member on this forum that try so hard as you do, you know.

Everything in MU has got to do with TOAA and no one else. No one else deserve the praise.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont make me quote you. Just be mature and accept you were wrong and lets move on. smile You stated it was bigger than a multiverse and that the Brothers were Megaverses. I corrected you. Nothing wrong with that smile

Am, no. I always said it was a realtiy outside of Multiverse. I only said it was bigger than Megaverse, because it was said in BIOS (because on my own I didn't know, because I didn't read it). You then said, it was retconned. I always said it was a reality outside of Multiverse and went to copy from BIOS what Megaverse was. And in that BIOS it said it was bigger than Multiverse.

Originally posted by Xplosive
LT not actually held two brothers, but two megaverses in his hands (which may only be a [b]universe size (we don't know acutally, but let's take it as a size of the universe),. [/B]

So yes, I only didn't know how big it was. And in BIOS said it was more than a single Multiverse, so that is what I went and said how big it was, because it said in BIOS.

The better would be to say ''BIOS misinterpreted many things, including this...''

So don't make things up for me and you did that more times with me and I always had to come back with saying ''As you could see I didn't say that, but I said...'', and this is again repeating and it was more times you did this and made it up.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No ones saying the Phoenix Force is the creator of reality, if you'd bothered to read the thread you wouldve seen that. However being created as the Big Bang(as i stated several times anyway) doesnt change the fact that all powers in reality derive from the Phoenix Force.

Am, no,... the fact is that it derives from TOAA.

WhiteWitchKing, when LT held Brothers and they were the architects of the Megaverse, was BIOS referring to them in that time that the Megaverse was bigger than a single Mulitverse?

Scarlet Witch's influence was so fragile that no matter how many realities she escapes and destroys the Phoenix will always be there.

Dark Phoenix implies Jean Grey unleashed therefore Wanda should be able to banish/escape her. Considering Phoenix is limited to a host body.

Giving SW the forum win.

Originally posted by Xplosive
[b]WhiteWitchKing, when LT held Brothers and they were the architects of the Megaverse, was BIOS referring to them in that time that the Megaverse was bigger than a single Mulitverse? [/B]

The handbook never said that a megaverse is bigger than a multiverse. It was referring to the Brothers each being a guardian of a megaverse, one looking after DC's, one looking after Marvels hence why it said encompassing more than one multiverse. YOU misinterpreted, i correct you. Deal with it 😬

I dont need to quote that rubbish you posted above about that creator nonsense.

At the end of the day TOAA created Marvel reality, he made the Big Bang that is the Phoenix Force. TOAA is THE Creator.

However you dont have to have generated the Big Bang to become A Creator.

No one was arguing that anyone else was THE creator but TOAA. However we all have the power to create things. We can create ideas, we can mould shapes from clay, create inventions. The definition of the word does not mean we have to have generated all matter and energy in reality to be able to be called A creator. Thats a definition for [B]THE Creator. Learn the difference.

You do not determine the English language Xp.

Your argument like all the points youve brought up in this thread are weak and based from misinterpretations that i've had fun correcting 🙂

This farcical argument came about when i correctly stated that creations can become greater than their creator. Thats very true. Unless we're talking about THE creator, the supreme being(which i even said earlier in this thread). My point was that just because you've created something, all the feats that creation does does not amp up your status and are not feats for you unless that creation uses you as a power source and are dependent on you.

Galactus created Tyrant.
Magneto and Magda created the Scarlet Witch.
Scientists created the serum that made the Sentry.

There is The Creator which has the definition of Supreme Being and A creator which has a different definition. They are not referring to the same thing. Acknowledge the difference. No one is going to ignore the English language so that you can win a point here Xp.

Do so by providing well backed up and researched arguments. Something i have yet to see you do.

Good luck 🙂

Originally posted by the ninjak
Scarlet Witch's influence was so fragile that no matter how many realities she escapes and destroys the Phoenix will always be there.

Dark Phoenix implies Jean Grey unleashed therefore Wanda should be able to banish/escape her. Considering Phoenix is limited to a host body.

Giving SW the forum win.

Dark Phoenix is a manifestation of the Phoenix Force that was restricted through self imposed psychic circuit breakers.

Given the circumstances of this thread, why would any part of the Phoenix/Jean Grey persona wish to limit their power in a fight to the death? This is a deathmatch with no CIS/PIS. Characters fighting to their full ability.

Dark Phoenix annihilates any incarnation of Wanda.

Wanda was over-hyped as ive shown in this thread 😬

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dont need to quote that rubbish you posted above about that creator nonsense.

You talk nonsense and that is because you just don't quite get it, literally.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The handbook never said that a megaverse is bigger than a multiverse. It was referring to the Brothers each being a guardian of a megaverse, one looking after DC's, one looking after Marvels hence why it said encompassing more than one multiverse. YOU misinterpreted, i correct you. Deal with it 😬

Hahahahaha.
I will see what WWK has to say. I mean, I really don't have the will to go myself serching it, so better to see more point of views.

And Mr Master scan (2006):

"the Living Tribunal also helped fashion the twin Entities the BROTHERS, each of whom became the guardian of a different Megaverse, within the larger Omniverse but encompassing MORE than a single Multiverse"

It says that he literally held Brothers that became guardians of reality that each of them is bigger than a Multiverse.
They aren't creators of it (arhitects), but to be architect and guardians of such realities, you have to be greatly empowered to do the job (just as PF is greatly empowerd to be architect of a reality).
And each of them have a job to guard realites bigger than Multiverse. TOAA must have empowered them sufficienetly. But since LT exists in ALL realities in Omniverse simultaneously and is only second to TOAA, it's not a stretch what he did.

I can't be sure of that, because seeing the scans is not enough.
That is why I should need to read more different points, oppinions from different people, comic readers.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This farcical argument came about when i correctly stated that creations can become greater than their creator. Thats very true. Unless we're talking about THE creator, the supreme being(which i even said earlier in this thread). My point was that just because you've created something, all the feats that creation does does not amp up your status and are not feats for you unless that creation uses you as a power source and are dependent on you.

All I said is true. But I see what you want to say, so fair enough.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No one was arguing that anyone else was THE creator but TOAA. However we all have the power to create things. We can create ideas, we can mould shapes from clay, create inventions. The definition of the word does not mean we have to have generated all matter and energy in reality to be able to be called A creator. Thats a definition for [B]THE Creator. Learn the difference.

It's not about THE creator or A creator (dictionary or not).
And that is why I said all belongs to TOAA. Everyone has the power to ''create'' things only because of TOAA. They are not using their powers, but TOAA powers. TOAA gives them intelligence and everything. When parents have children, it's again indirect creation of TOAA and they used TOAA power to have children.
So all belongs to TOAA, directly or indirectly. He is the creator (NO EXCEPTION), inventer, everything... This is what you have to get.

Originally posted by Xplosive

It says that he literally held Brothers that became guardians of reality that each of them is [b]bigger than Multiverse.
They aren't creators of it (arhitects), but to be architects and guardians of such realities, you have to be greatly empowered to do the job (just as PF is greatly empowerd to be architect of a reality).
[/B]

It doesnt say each of them is bigger than a multiverse. It says that the megaverses the Brothers guard encompass more than one multiverse. They do, the megaverse connected with Marvels multiverse and the one connected to DC.

Once again you misinterpreted. Commiserations 🙂

As for your 2nd point. Roma is the omniversal guardian, therefore overlooking an area bigger than that under LT's authority. Is she a great cosmic power? 😖hifty:

Your argument just isnt there Xp 🙁

Notice im having to type less and less to respond to you. This is pretty much over 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It doesnt say each of them is bigger than a multiverse. It says that the megaverses the Brothers guard encompass more than one multiverse. They do, the megaverse connected with Marvels multiverse and the one connected to DC.

Yes it says encompasses (because it represents more than just one Multiverse). But isn't it logical that what it encompasses (megaverse connected with Marvels multiverse and the one connected to DC) is also simply bigger than a Multiverse. It's seems like they imply on it. This is of course not definite.

But what is your argument about it. You also don't have a clue of how big it is. You can always feel better, ''all speculation,... not definite..., logic doesn't work here...''
Ok, it could be logical to be also smaller, but still, megaverse connected with Marvels multiverse and the one connected to DC just doens't seem to work to not be bigger than one Multiverse.

But, ok it sounds quite stupid and it's not definite at all. I can't do anything here.

Still, it's not a speculation that LT is more powerful than PF. 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
As for your 2nd point. Roma is the omniversal guardian, therefore overlooking an area bigger than that under LT's authority. Is she a great cosmic power? 😖hifty:

Your argument just isnt there Xp 🙁

Except that this isn't Roma and we know that LT is the greatest cosmic power second to TOAA.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Notice im having to type less and less to respond to you. This is pretty much over 🙂

It was sad reading that you didn't understand about TOAA after so many many years and analyzing comics more than 99% of anyone. I hope you get it now.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]So to you, it has to be lethal for it to be impressive? This is what i'm arguing against. just stop.

Uhm who said that? I don't even know where you are getting this idea from.

Great than it's an impressive feat for both. It's even more impressive since LT stopped the whole thing while Ziran had to cover his face in defense of the attack. LT just sat there and stared at the attack. LT is far more impressive during that showing and shocked even Warlock.

Actually its' an impressive feat for neither. It seems that everyone present at the Cosmic Trial was indeed an M-body.

If you read the actual book then you wouldn't have to resort to this stupid argument. Where did I ever say it's definitely all M-bodies at the court. Go bring me proof other wise you can't make the claim it's all M-bodies. Forgetting that, Ziran did nothing to cover his face and knelt down to hold his ground. LT sat there and just took that attack without bother to block anything until he decide to stop the attack. Ziran was HELPLESS. Impressive for Ziran but not as impressive as LT who actual restored the entire court including Ziran.

The "they were all M-bodies" arguement actually seems to be the correct one. I forget if it was either you or GS that provided scans from the Quasar issue showing the attendants of the Trial in the dimension of manifestations. The ones shown must have been using M-bodies (and it seems the ENTIRE court was using M-bodies).

I was wrong. According to that issue even the Celestials were using M-bodies (at least for the trial).

So the LT's feat is meaningless.

WTF? Give me the page number or quote the post where I provided the scan of Quasar. As for Eternity, he was talking about himself. There's no dispute regarding Eternity because abstracts don't have bodies to begin with. Did you expect the actual 616 universe to float about in the court as a plaintiff? I'll help you out since you don't have the book. In that issue, Quasar was told that the physical entities also use M-bodies and he sees Galactus, Infinity, and Eternity there. Then he LEAVES and steps through a door into the court of the Tribunal where he sees the cosmics. Nowhere does it say the cosmics in the court were all M-bodies. If you have proof they were all M-bodies, bring it. Don't speculate. You're whining about how LT is mostly speculation yet you merely have speculations here.

It seems it was GS that provided the scans. The Cosmics shown on panel in the dimension of Manifestations MUST have been using M-bodies. Otherwise why would their image be there?

Where does it say Jean was holding the ACTUAL universe and not it's representation? You eat that up but whine about this? The Brothers are beings, not concepts. It flat out states he holds two incalculable brothers in his and prevented them from assuming there role as architects of new reality. If it was just representations, how the hell is he preventing them from assuming the destiny as architects of realities by just closing his hand? Is it that hard for you to understand things?

Uhm because the PF has universal level feats on panel before, whereas the LT had none? That's not so hard to understand right? And the Brothers have been retconned so much what do they represent currently? This is even assuming he had their actuality in his hands which is still doubtful.

So explain to me how it is that he closed his hand and prevented these two brothers from assuming their pre-destined roles as architects of realities.

Who knows what was going on in the background. They went from Megaverses, to merely architects of realities, to guardians of their respective realities. That's like claiming Pre-Retcon Beyonder owned all the abstratctions and the feat is still vaild despite the retcon.

So wait, Odin closed his hand and was able to stop two incalculably powerful beings from assuming there role as creators of new realities? I didn't know shaking the multiverse is a higher feat than preventing creators of realities from doing their job.

Has the LT ever rocked the multiverse on panel? Destoryed galaxies on panel? Reignited long dead stars as an after effect of one of his throw downs on panel? No? Ok then.

Lol. Like I told you, the Phoenix Force is inconsistent and get be beaten down. Wrong or not, Jean is still dead and the Force was shattered into a billion pieces, weakened, and had to hide.

In total contradiction to the previous Excalibur encounter (that was even confirmed in the bio).

And thank goodness it was Scathan, because obviously Phoenix couldn't have done the job. Sure it was good to cure Eternity of an illness, but when the tops beings were going head to head you don't call Phoenix Force. Where was the first and greatest of principalities yet again? Phoenix isn't Protege. If it showed up, Protege would've just replicated Shi'Ar weapon or Galactus' tech and killed it. That's why I'm sure the entities/writer didn't want to bring it into this. This is Protege, not Xorn. lol

The PF just got through saving the universe when it stopped Bubonicus and healed Eternity's "cancer" (where he admitted it was destroying him). And it wasn't just Scathan that saved the LT. Even after judgment was pronounced he had to steal power from the Eye of Agamotto to imprison the Protege.

That's your belief. The guy stops an attack and then you say no. WTF? When it's right in front of your face. As for Ziran, Ziran didn't need any help because he's got things covered with both hands and knelt in defense, struggling to keep on his feet. He cover his face again when judgement was passed on Warlock. That Ziran is useless but then again Ziran got his ass kicked and was useless throughout the Infinity Gauntlet series. The only power than igored the IG's attack and just sat there was the Tribunal. Lol. LT's just sitting there and ignoring it while Ziran struggles. But you still admit it's an impressive feat, but it's more impressive for LT who actually fix things.

There's serious proof on panel that they were all M-bodies, even the non abstract cosmics. The feat is meaningless!

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
How can you say LT's greatest feat was that nova blast when he stopped an attack than floored a handful of the most powerful abstracts? You also ignore him one shotting a being that was going to consume reality.

There is on panel evidence that they were all merely M-bodies! The scan is in this very thread.

And whether or not it's a contradiction, like you said it's happened on panel. The universe isn't going to be destroyed. The Force has been beaten down and that's not a contradiction. hahaha

The fact that you can't see that both can't be right is both sad and funny.

LT has like two low showings and one against Reed Richards. Weren't you the one to hype Reed as the smartest man in MU? Reed taking LT out with a canon is still far more impressive than Phoenix getting used a fuel by some alien vessel or dragged about by Shi'Ar weaponry, unless you want to argue Shi'Ar has better tech the Reed. Has LT ever been killed before? Has LT been fuel for some alien vessel? Has LT been shattered into a billion pieces?

So far the only low showings you've brought up are the Shi'ar and Xorn incidents. Two just like the LT. Unlike the LT, the PF also has confirmed on panel very HIGH showings.

It's not an alternate universe that you saw. The current Guardians of the Galaxy help create to the 31st century Guardians of the Galaxy. And GOTG 31st century was a mainstream book revolving around mainstream characters.

Wow, this is actually sad. So we have on panel evidence in a non-alternate universe of the PF shaking creation, saving Eternity's life and teaching him the meaning of pain. And we also have the LT being saved by Scathan and then draining power from the Eye of Agamotto to imprison the Protege.

As for What If, where in the Phoenix Force's bio does it mention any of the feats of the What If? lol

How long would the bios be if every character's alternate version was mentioned in them? Especially characters with 30+ years of history?

lol. So how did this power save it from being turned into a fuel, shattered into a billion pieces, beaten back by two Earth teams, dragged out from the White Hot Room by the Shi'Ar. If what you're saying is true, then shouldn't the Force have mastery over all powers in the universe? Obviously that's not what most writers think. When an planetary EMP can shatter you into a billion pieces, you aren't impressive.

The PF does. It's avatars may not. Just like M-bodies merely hold fractions of the beings true power. When Maelstrom "killed" Anomaly, he didn't kill the actual abstract, yet it was enough for Maelstrom to assume his role for a brief time.

Of course he could've, seeing as how Xorn with merely a planetary level EMP put Jean down or how the Shi'Ar tech dragged it across space out of it's stronghold. Rachel just knew the inevitable was going to happen and gave up.

Cool now we're making up stories in our head? How about this : The LT fled Korvac because he feared his wrath and knew the outcome was inevitable.

The smartest guy in the MU according to you? Reed would own the Phoenix Force as well. You think he'd have a problem creating a device that absorbs the PF and use it to power his Galactus suit or Negative Zone prison. It's what Reed does. Owning abstracts and the likes is what Reed and his foe Doom does. It's what they're good at, like the Phoenix Force is good at getting trashed by random alien vessels and noob X-characters. lol.

What's my point? My point is all that power the Phoenix Force has it and it's been stomped by far less. You don't have to be that far up the cosmic chain to be down the Phoenix Force in a fight. The point is most writers don't view the Force as being that powerful especially when compared to LT. As from that Reed incident, what do you have really? Reed is a smart if not smarter than Doom. He other lost was against Thanos with TOAA's power. No real shame about that. As for Korvac, Korvac did nothing to LT. So what's your point? The Tribunal isn't the one that could've died at Galactus' hand or EMP into a billion pieces. LT did get beaten back by the X-Men and Ultra Force? It's the Phoenix Force that was on the receiving on and had to run and hide.

The writers can make Spider-man own TOAA if they wanted to and they felt like it. Both the LT and the PF have low showings. But on panel the PF's feats dwarf anything the LT has ever done. This is why you keep dodging. I actually asked you before on another thread about universe level destruction on panel anywhere without using a plot device like the UN or HotI and you ignored the question.