Dark Phoenix vs Scarlet Witch

Originally posted by Xplosive
Yes it says encompasses (because it represents more than just one Multiverse). But isn't it logical that what it encompasses (megaverse connected with Marvels multiverse and the one connected to DC) is also simply [b]bigger than a Multiverse. It's seems like they imply on it. This is of course not definite.

But what is your argument about it. You also don't have a clue of how big it is. You can always feel better, ''all speculation,... not definite..., logic doesn't work here...''
Ok, it could be logical to be also smaller, but still, megaverse connected with Marvels multiverse and the one connected to DC just doens't seem to work to not be bigger than one Multiverse.

But, ok it sounds quite stupid and it's not definite at all. I can't do anything here.[/B]

The megaverse is just a grouping Marvel came up with to identify a few comic properties they possess that dont share enough similarities with the multiverse to be one of its divergent realities, however it more closely ties to marvels multiverse than another comic companies.

So far there are about 2 or 3 universes that come under this grouping, so the answer to your question is NO 🙂

The megaverse isnt the multiverse AND these few realities. It is JUST this band of realities just outside of the multiverse. So the megaverse at this point isnt bigger than the multiverse, it is composed of a few universes. Nowhere near.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Still, it's not a speculation that LT is more powerful than PF.

Hes stated to be the supreme entity in Marvel just below TOAA, however his showings on panel show that hes not infallible. His actions have been thwarted, he has stated theres a limit to how far hes willing to go to protect a reality and his Mbody has been destroyed by Reed Richards. All of those low showings and not a single truly impressive feat to date.

Feats wise at least, Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force trump LT. Im happy with that 🙂

Originally posted by Xplosive
Except that this isn't Roma and we know that LT is the greatest cosmic power second to TOAA.

You said that to be guardians of realities they(the Brothers) must be significantly powered to have such a role. I therefore showed you how role doesn't dictate power level by mentioning how Roma who is no significant cosmic power has an authority over an area greater than LT.

How did you respond to that point? By going off on a tangent and talking about how powerful LT is 😕

Get it together Xp 😆

Originally posted by Xplosive
It was sad reading that you didn't understand about TOAA after so many many years and analyzing comics more than 99% of anyone. I hope you get it now.

Please kid.

When i said that creations could be greater than their creators, you assumed i was trying to make a point about the Phoenix Force in Marvel and tried to cut me off by going on a farcical rant about how no one can create anything but the creator. I wasnt. You were wrong. So all you did was make yourself look very silly by trying to tell the forum to ignore internationally recognised defintiions in favour of your personal definition. A definition youre trying to enforce because you have been corrected here at every turn.

Boo hoo. Deal with it.

Come up with good arguments 😂

Originally posted by Xplosive
[b]WhiteWitchKing, when LT held Brothers and they were the architects of the Megaverse, was BIOS referring to them in that time that the Megaverse was bigger than a single Mulitverse? [/B]

Megaverse is bigger than multiverse. At the time of DC Vs Marvel, they were the embodiment of the DC and Marvel universe. The LT and Spectre failed to stop them because they were essentially the supreme beings of both comic company. After the retcon, LT was actually more powerful than them but nowhere does it say they're not megaverses. They weren't the embodiment of the MU and DC entirety but the were still architects of realities (megaverses). LT is the supreme being of all multiverse(s) so it shouldn't be a surprise that he can hold them in his hand.

Originally posted by zopzop
Uhm who said that? I don't even know where you are getting this idea from.

Actually its' an impressive feat for neither. It seems that everyone present at the Cosmic Trial was indeed an M-body.

In other words you can't provide proof for anything you claim. Thanks for clearing things up. Eternity always appears using M-bodies and so does Death and Infinity. His totality is the entire 616. People you meet Eternity and fights him is fighting his M-body because the very battle ground their in is the universe/his actual body. But that's likely to go over your head.

The "they were all M-bodies" arguement actually seems to be the correct one. I forget if it was either you or GS that provided scans from the Quasar issue showing the attendants of the Trial in the dimension of manifestations. The ones shown must have been using M-bodies (and it seems the ENTIRE court was using M-bodies).

In other words I never made such a claim. You have no proof of them using M-bodies otherwise you would've pointed it out. Like I said, that Quasar issue dealt with two different instances. Just cause you believe it must doesn't mean it is. Where's your concrete proof? You have nothing but SPECULATION. It's SEEMS YOU HAVE NO PROOF SO STOP PRETENDING.

I was wrong. According to that issue even the Celestials were using M-bodies (at least for the trial).

So the LT's feat is meaningless.

Hahaha. Please just stop. You don't know the Celestials at all so stop pretending. And you have not proof except speculations. The instance where Quasar talks about M-body has nothing to do with him stepping into LT's court at another point in time/space. I get it now. There's nothing to disgust here because you haven't read the issue except would scans and for some lame reason assume their two about the same instance.

It seems it was GS that provided the scans. The Cosmics shown on panel in the dimension of Manifestations MUST have been using M-bodies. Otherwise why would their image be there?

It seems and must have is not proof. You're just speculating and trying and failing. The cosmics shown were Galactus, Infinity, and Eternity regarding M-bodies. Quasar than LEAVES and enters the court where he seeks to find Eternity. Eternity always uses M-bodies because that's the way he takes form. There's no mention of anybody in the court taking on M-bodies at all. There was no mention of this during Infinity Watch 1 either. The only thing mentioned during IW 1 was that Eternity believed that attack wouldn't have affected his totality (as the entire universe) but Eternity always uses M-bodies when you see him. That doesn't mean the entire court was. How hard is that for you to understand.

Uhm because the PF has universal level feats on panel before, whereas the LT had none? That's not so hard to understand right? And the Brothers have been retconned so much what do they represent currently? This is even assuming he had their actuality in his hands which is still doubtful.

In other words you can't explain why he's able to prevent them from assuming their roles as architects of new realities by just keep his hand closed.

Who knows what was going on in the background. They went from Megaverses, to merely architects of realities, to guardians of their respective realities. That's like claiming Pre-Retcon Beyonder owned all the abstratctions and the feat is still vaild despite the retcon.

So now you're trying to deny their level of power? When DC vs Marvel came out, they were the creators of these megaverses. What do you think arhcitects of new realities mean? A megaverse is made up of multiple realies/universes. Their role didn't change. They made these realities and became their guardians. Is the English language that challenging for you? And that "play can begin" part is referring to the DC vs Marvel event where the Brothers fought each other causing the main DC uiniverse and Marve's 616 universe to crossover. When it was published, LT and Spectre were helpless to stop the Brothers because the Brothers were the creator of the DC and MU megaverses. In X-Men, it RETCONS things so that LT and Spectre were merely pretending to be helpless and that in fact they were the true orchestrator behind the Brothers and the DC vs MU crossover. Not only did LT help creator the Brothers, but his closed hand ACTUALLY PREVENTED the Brothers from creating these megaverse and the events of the DC Vs MU.

Has the LT ever rocked the multiverse on panel? Destoryed galaxies on panel? Reignited long dead stars as an after effect of one of his throw downs on panel? No? Ok then.

lol. This is your attempt at humor. He just only prevented two architects of realities from causing that crossover called DC Vs MU just by keep his palm closed.

In total contradiction to the previous Excalibur encounter (that was even confirmed in the bio).

Doesn't matter. The Phoenix Force was beaten. It's nothing new so don't cry over spilled milk. Other writers have turned it into a fuel before. I mean it's not like it's the Living Tribunal y'know?

The PF just got through saving the universe when it stopped Bubonicus and healed Eternity's "cancer" (where he admitted it was destroying him). And it wasn't just Scathan that saved the LT. Even after judgment was pronounced he had to steal power from the Eye of Agamotto to imprison the Protege.

The Phoenix Force then got it handled by Dormammu who isn't even a multiversal threat, neither is Bubonicus. Protege was a multiversal threat that required the attention of the Tribunal and Scathan. Plus, small jobs such as that is left to the Phoenix Force. What would've happened if Protege decided to turn into Xorn and gave Giraud a planetary stroke? There would be no one left to clean the moldy timelines off of Eternity's back. One feat of destroying Bubonicus and all of a sudden it puts the Phoenix Force on LT's level? Funny enough seeing as Dormammu has actually double K.O.ed with Eternity in a fact and own Giraud, I guess Dormammu should be on LT's level too.

There's serious proof on panel that they were all M-bodies, even the non abstract cosmics. The feat is meaningless!

Lol. And where's the proof. Show me where it says that when Quasar entered the court of the Tribunal that everyone there was using an M-body. Just because in the realm of manifestation it said that the physicals can also use M-bodies doesn't mean they were at the trial. Stop speculating and show where he says the entities were all using M-bodies. We both know you have none. Hence why you say they "must have" and not that they are. Must have is a lame attempt at making an argument when there's not definitive proof.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The megaverse is just a grouping Marvel came up with to identify a few comic properties they possess that dont share enough similarities with the multiverse to be one of its divergent realities, however it more closely ties to marvels multiverse than another comic companies.

So far there are about 2 or 3 universes that come under this grouping, so the answer to your question is NO 🙂

There are few 2 or 3... hahah, all speculation.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The megaverse isnt the multiverse AND these few realities. It is JUST this band of realities just outside of the multiverse. So the megaverse at this point isnt bigger than the multiverse, it is composed of a few universes. Nowhere near.

Of course it isn't multiverse, it's MEGAverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Hes stated to be the supreme entity in Marvel just below TOAA, however his showings on panel show that hes not infallible. His actions have been thwarted, he has stated theres a limit to how far hes willing to go to protect a reality and his Mbody has been destroyed by Reed Richards. All of those low showings and not a single truly impressive feat to date.

Feats wise at least, Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force trump LT. Im happy with that 🙂

You talking to me to get it together. Really? PF obsessive fan who actually is hurt when even think that someone but TOAA is more powerful than PF. And like I always said, you bring panel (that you exggerate) feat just to feel better.
It doesn't help you at all.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Please kid.

When i said that creations could be greater than their creators, you assumed i was trying to make a point about the Phoenix Force in Marvel and tried to cut me off by going on a farcical rant about how no one can create anything but the creator. I wasnt. You were wrong. So all you did was make yourself look very silly by trying to tell the forum to ignore internationally recognised defintiions in favour of your personal definition. A definition youre trying to enforce because you have been corrected here at every turn.

Boo hoo. Deal with it.

Come up with good arguments 😂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No ones saying the Phoenix Force is the creator of reality, if you'd bothered to read the thread you wouldve seen that. However being created as the Big Bang(as i stated several times anyway) doesnt change the fact that all powers in reality derive from the Phoenix Force.

LOL

And there is no one in this forum that try to enforce things more than you do. 😂

And about creator and creation, it seems you still don't understand the point and what I was trying to say all the time. You atachment to PF is ridiculous.
You just don't get it.

😆

Originally posted by Xplosive
There are few 2 or 3... hahah, all speculation.

Of course it isn't multiverse, it's MEGAverse.

You talking to me to get it together. Really? PF obsessive fan who actually is hurt when even think that someone but TOAA is more powerful than PF. And like I always said, you bring panel (that you exggerate) feat just to feel better.
It doesn't help you at all.

LOL

And there is no one in this forum that try to enforce things more than you do. 😂

And about creator and creation, it seems you still don't understand the point and what I was trying to say all the time. You atachment to PF is ridiculous.
You just don't get it.

😆

The abundance of smileys doesn't hide your pain Xp.

You have come in here with a number different arguments and perspectives, only to have each one torn apart comprehensively 🙂

I get exactly what you were trying to say with regards to TOAA. Its just that your argument was dump and lacked relevance to this thread. Thats all 🙂

See how i no longer have to refer to the thread topic and address your points? 😮

Your useful contribution to this thread minimal as it was is pretty much over.

Thank you 😄

Originally posted by zopzop
There is on panel evidence that they were all merely M-bodies! The scan is in this very thread.

Hahahaha. So if I showed you a scan where it says that Galactus also use M-bodies and another scan of another entirely different event where we see Galactus standing around, therefore the conclusion is that Galactus must be using an M-body? GTFO man and go read the actual book.

The fact that you can't see that both can't be right is both sad and funny.

Sad is you relying on What Ifs, scans, and handbooks. Don't worry about me because I actually have proof whereas you speculate and deny the truth.

So far the only low showings you've brought up are the Shi'ar and Xorn incidents. Two just like the LT. Unlike the LT, the PF also has confirmed on panel very HIGH showings.

Lol. Two?

Excalibur: Rachel give in rather than fight with Galactus. Both then realized the Phoenix Forces death was one of the primal forces that was essential to the universe just like Galactus so Galactus set it free. A being like Galactus had the power to kill the Force permanently to which Roma, Death, and Watch agreed and was there to prevent.

Phoenix Ressurection: Genesis - an alien vessel pulls the Phoenix Force from the 616 into the Ultraverse and they fought. The ship injuries the Phoenix Force to the point that it ran to find a human host.

Phoenix Resurrection: Revelations - The Phoenix Force is drawn out of Amber Hunt where the ship absorbs it to power it's engine. Wolverine (lol) along with the X-Men and Ultra Force destroy the ships engine to free the Phoenix Force. A portal is opened where the two teams successfully attacked and steered Phoenix Force into a portal.

New X-Men - Xorn kills Jean and shatters the Phoenix Force into a billion pieces.

X-Men: Phoenix - Endsong - The Phoenix Force is dragged from the White Hot Room by a Shi'Ar device as they attempt to permanently destroy it.

Uncanny X-Men - Prior to encountering Jean, the Phoenix Force merged with a Shi'Ar named Rook Shir who used it's power to lay waste to the Empire. The Shi'Ar sent Gladiator and the Imperial Guards who hunted Rook Shir down and killed him (Gladiator beheaded him).

Two low showings? Yeah right.

Wow, this is actually sad. So we have on panel evidence in a non-alternate universe of the PF shaking creation, saving Eternity's life and teaching him the meaning of pain. And we also have the LT being saved by Scathan and then draining power from the Eye of Agamotto to imprison the Protege.

We have Scathan and LT at the trial of a multiversal threat. Yup and Phoenix a no show yet again. Shaking the creation? Where's that at? Protege showing vs Xorn showing. Lol. WTF?

How long would the bios be if every character's alternate version was mentioned in them? Especially characters with 30+ years of history?

In other words, it's not canon to the mainstream books like everyone has been telling you. Gotcha. Thanks for playing.

The PF does. It's avatars may not. Just like M-bodies merely hold fractions of the beings true power. When Maelstrom "killed" Anomaly, he didn't kill the actual abstract, yet it was enough for Maelstrom to assume his role for a brief time.

Stop with this avatar nonsense. It wasn't it's avatar when the Entity ship pulled the Phoenix Force into the Ultraverse and weakened it to the point it had to find a host to hide it. Then dragged it out from it's host to use as fuel. It's wasn't an avatar when the Phoenix Force got beaten into a portal by the X-Men and Ultra Force. It wasn't an avatar when Xorn shattered it or when the Shi'Ar dragged it out from the WHR. You're speculating again. It's the actual Force and your precious hand book even states it clear as do because the actual books state it clear as day. The Phoenix Force was shattered into a billion pieces. The Phoenix Force tried to hide from the Entity ship. The Shi'Ar are attempted to destroy the Phoenix Force.

Cool now we're making up stories in our head? How about this : The LT fled Korvac because he feared his wrath and knew the outcome was inevitable.

lol. Korvac killed LT? When did that happen? And this is Korvac, not Xorn. There are different levels of low showings. That Korvac incident is still far above some EMP by a mutie called Xorn.

The writers can make Spider-man own TOAA if they wanted to and they felt like it.

LMAO. But the reason they don't is because they not stupid. And they can't because the Editor won't let them ruin an established Supreme being. Hence why they allow guys like Xorn and the Shi'ar to stomped the Phoenix Force instead.

Both the LT and the PF have low showings. But on panel the PF's feats dwarf anything the LT has ever done.

Nah, like you said Tribunal has two low showings. Even then, that Protege bit is hardly low considering he drew the attention of four high end cosmic and was a multiversal threat unlike Xorn, the Shi'ar, or the entity ship.

This is why you keep dodging. I actually asked you before on another thread about universe level destruction on panel anywhere without using a plot device like the UN or HotI and you ignored the question.

He's the judge and guardian of the entire MU. WTF would he be doing destroying a universe? He's there to protect it creation. He's not some emotionally-needy entity like the Phoenix Force who has good and dark sides to it. He's not destroying universes, but it's not out of his will to do so. He even passed judgment on a being capable of destroying a universe despite said beings threats. The one that blinked and back down, after making threats and attacking the court, was Warlock, not the Tribunal. He prevented two beings from creating new realities and the DC Vs Marvel crossover just by clenching them in his hand until he consult with his Spectre hooded ally. Only then would the play begin. Lol. Creation of realities was a play for the Tribunal. It even says right there that alpha and omega revolve on a wheel of destiny spun by his mighty hand...a hand that will soon open up to allow two brothers to assume there roles as new architects of realities.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
In other words you can't provide proof for anything you claim. Thanks for clearing things up. Eternity always appears using M-bodies and so does Death and Infinity. His totality is the entire 616. People you meet Eternity and fights him is fighting his M-body because the very battle ground their in is the universe/his actual body. But that's likely to go over your head.

In other words I never made such a claim. You have no proof of them using M-bodies otherwise you would've pointed it out. Like I said, that Quasar issue dealt with two different instances. Just cause you believe it must doesn't mean it is. Where's your concrete proof? You have nothing but SPECULATION. It's SEEMS YOU HAVE NO PROOF SO STOP PRETENDING.

Hahaha. Please just stop. You don't know the Celestials at all so stop pretending. And you have not proof except speculations. The instance where Quasar talks about M-body has nothing to do with him stepping into LT's court at another point in time/space. I get it now. There's nothing to disgust here because you haven't read the issue except would scans and for some lame reason assume their two about the same instance.

It seems and must have is not proof. You're just speculating and trying and failing. The cosmics shown were Galactus, Infinity, and Eternity regarding M-bodies. Quasar than LEAVES and enters the court where he seeks to find Eternity. Eternity always uses M-bodies because that's the way he takes form. There's no mention of anybody in the court taking on M-bodies at all. There was no mention of this during Infinity Watch 1 either. The only thing mentioned during IW 1 was that Eternity believed that attack wouldn't have affected his totality (as the entire universe) but Eternity always uses M-bodies when you see him. That doesn't mean the entire court was. How hard is that for you to understand.

Lol. And where's the proof. Show me where it says that when Quasar entered the court of the Tribunal that everyone there was using an M-body. Just because in the realm of manifestation it said that the physicals can also use M-bodies doesn't mean they were at the trial. Stop speculating and show where he says the entities were all using M-bodies. We both know you have none. Hence why you say they "must have" and not that they are. Must have is a lame attempt at making an argument when there's not definitive proof.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Anthromorpho : Our dimension contains reflections of every manifestation we have ever done
Quasar : Can you point us to a recent manifestation body of Eternity

They were all M-bodies!

In other words you can't explain why he's able to prevent them from assuming their roles as architects of new realities by just keep his hand closed.

So now you're trying to deny their level of power? When DC vs Marvel came out, they were the creators of these megaverses. What do you think arhcitects of new realities mean? A megaverse is made up of multiple realies/universes. Their role didn't change. They made these realities and became their guardians. Is the English language that challenging for you? And that "play can begin" part is referring to the DC vs Marvel event where the Brothers fought each other causing the main DC uiniverse and Marve's 616 universe to crossover. When it was published, LT and Spectre were helpless to stop the Brothers because the Brothers were the creator of the DC and MU megaverses. In X-Men, it RETCONS things so that LT and Spectre were merely pretending to be helpless and that in fact they were the true orchestrator behind the Brothers and the DC vs MU crossover. Not only did LT help creator the Brothers, but his closed hand ACTUALLY PREVENTED the Brothers from creating these megaverse and the events of the DC Vs MU.

They went from being creators of their respective realities, then only their architects, then merely their guardians!

This still assumes he had their actuality in his hands and not representations.

lol. This is your attempt at humor. He just only prevented two architects of realities from causing that crossover called DC Vs MU just by keep his palm closed.

They've been retconned at least twice so far that I know of. So according to your logic, current Beyonder is > all abstracts and powers in the MU because pre-retcon Beyonder owned them all.

Doesn't matter. The Phoenix Force was beaten. It's nothing new so don't cry over spilled milk. Other writers have turned it into a fuel before. I mean it's not like it's the Living Tribunal y'know?

Yes nothing like him. We've seen him blow up a star (his highest on panel feat), ran from Korvac and gotten blown up by Reed.

The Phoenix Force then got it handled by Dormammu who isn't even a multiversal threat, neither is Bubonicus. Protege was a multiversal threat that required the attention of the Tribunal and Scathan. Plus, small jobs such as that is left to the Phoenix Force. What would've happened if Protege decided to turn into Xorn and gave Giraud a planetary stroke? There would be no one left to clean the moldy timelines off of Eternity's back. One feat of destroying Bubonicus and all of a sudden it puts the Phoenix Force on LT's level? Funny enough seeing as Dormammu has actually double K.O.ed with Eternity in a fact and own Giraud, I guess Dormammu should be on LT's level too.

No Giruad got knocked back by Dual Dormammu. That's it. That wasn't one Dormammu but two, the one from 616 + the one from the Guradians reality. Giruad wasn't KOed or even damaged. Just knocked back by a blast.

When Eternity was "dying" (stated on panel by Eternity himself), Mainframe aka Vision asked who he should summon to help him. The Celestials or maybe the LT? He said no, his ONLY hope was the PF. This is all on panel.

And at least Dormammu has some decent feats on panel (like stalemating the guy that shook the multiverse).

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Hahahaha. So if I showed you a scan where it says that Galactus also use M-bodies and another scan of another entirely different event where we see Galactus standing around, therefore the conclusion is that Galactus must be using an M-body? GTFO man and go read the actual book.

This is already dealt with in my previous post.

Sad is you relying on What Ifs, scans, and handbooks. Don't worry about me because I actually have proof whereas you speculate and deny the truth.

Yeah proof. Like your "LT made the Surfer a universe".

Lol. Two?

Excalibur: Rachel give in rather than fight with Galactus. Both then realized the Phoenix Forces death was one of the primal forces that was essential to the universe just like Galactus so Galactus set it free. A being like Galactus had the power to kill the Force permanently to which Roma, Death, and Watch agreed and was there to prevent.

Phoenix Ressurection: Genesis - an alien vessel pulls the Phoenix Force from the 616 into the Ultraverse and they fought. The ship injuries the Phoenix Force to the point that it ran to find a human host.

Phoenix Resurrection: Revelations - The Phoenix Force is drawn out of Amber Hunt where the ship absorbs it to power it's engine. Wolverine (lol) along with the X-Men and Ultra Force destroy the ships engine to free the Phoenix Force. A portal is opened where the two teams successfully attacked and steered Phoenix Force into a portal.

New X-Men - Xorn kills Jean and shatters the Phoenix Force into a billion pieces.

X-Men: Phoenix - Endsong - The Phoenix Force is dragged from the White Hot Room by a Shi'Ar device as they attempt to permanently destroy it.

Uncanny X-Men - Prior to encountering Jean, the Phoenix Force merged with a Shi'Ar named Rook Shir who used it's power to lay waste to the Empire. The Shi'Ar sent Gladiator and the Imperial Guards who hunted Rook Shir down and killed him (Gladiator beheaded him).

Two low showings? Yeah right.

Rachel gave herself over to Galactus. When she was in danger of dying, she would have taken all creation with her. That's hardly a "low showing".

The Ultraverse isn't a low showing either. Since we don't know how Abstractions and Forces from MU function in the Ultraverse. Black Knight freaking stabbed and "killed" Nemesis with the Ebony Blade!

The Xorn incident is in direct contradiction to the events in Exaclibur and the handbooks.

We have Scathan and LT at the trial of a multiversal threat. Yup and Phoenix a no show yet again. Shaking the creation? Where's that at? Protege showing vs Xorn showing. Lol. WTF?

And how do you explain the LT draining power from the Eye of Agamotto to imprison the Protege even AFTER he had been restrained by Scathan? Scathan stopped the Protege's rampage then restrained him and the LT still couldn't do anything to him without drawing power from an object created by someone that's about Dormammu's level of power!

In other words, it's not canon to the mainstream books like everyone has been telling you. Gotcha. Thanks for playing.

I said no such thing. There's obviously only so much info you can cram in a handbook entry. How would you possibly fit 30 years of ALL the characters showings in a page or two?

Stop with this avatar nonsense. It wasn't it's avatar when the Entity ship pulled the Phoenix Force into the Ultraverse and weakened it to the point it had to find a host to hide it. Then dragged it out from it's host to use as fuel. It's wasn't an avatar when the Phoenix Force got beaten into a portal by the X-Men and Ultra Force. It wasn't an avatar when Xorn shattered it or when the Shi'Ar dragged it out from the WHR. You're speculating again. It's the actual Force and your precious hand book even states it clear as do because the actual books state it clear as day. The Phoenix Force was shattered into a billion pieces. The Phoenix Force tried to hide from the Entity ship. The Shi'Ar are attempted to destroy the Phoenix Force.

How was 616 functioning without the actual PF in it? If it was pulled completely into the ULtraverse as you claim. I used the example of Maelstrom "killing" Anomaly and usurping his role in the universe.

lol. Korvac killed LT? When did that happen? And this is Korvac, not Xorn. There are different levels of low showings. That Korvac incident is still far above some EMP by a mutie called Xorn.

You were making up stories, I merely joined in on the fun.

Nah, like you said Tribunal has two low showings. Even then, that Protege bit is hardly low considering he drew the attention of four high end cosmic and was a multiversal threat unlike Xorn, the Shi'ar, or the entity ship.

Oh the Protege incident was a very low showing. Leeching power from Agamotto's artifact to get the job done is lame.

He's the judge and guardian of the entire MU. WTF would he be doing destroying a universe? He's there to protect it creation. He's not some emotionally-needy entity like the Phoenix Force who has good and dark sides to it. He's not destroying universes, but it's not out of his will to do so. He even passed judgment on a being capable of destroying a universe despite said beings threats. The one that blinked and back down, after making threats and attacking the court, was Warlock, not the Tribunal. He prevented two beings from creating new realities and the DC Vs Marvel crossover just by clenching them in his hand until he consult with his Spectre hooded ally. Only then would the play begin. Lol. Creation of realities was a play for the Tribunal. It even says right there that alpha and omega revolve on a wheel of destiny spun by his mighty hand...a hand that will soon open up to allow two brothers to assume there roles as new architects of realities.

He supposedly destroys anything that threatens the balance in the multiverse. Planets, beings, universes, etc..Has he EVER destroyed a universe on panel? Yes or no? Has he ever destroyed anything greater than a star on panel? Has he destroyed a cosmic being or Abstraction on panel? No? Okay then.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Hahahaha. So if I showed you a scan where it says that Galactus also use M-bodies and another scan of another entirely different event where we see Galactus standing around, therefore the conclusion is that Galactus must be using an M-body? GTFO man and go read the actual book.

In the dimension of Manifestations where that Quasar issue took place that Galactus was an M'Body, the issue actually specifically refers to him and says powerful physical entities can use them as well.

As i showed the trial of Adam Warlock was actually depicted in that Quasar issue and all of the characters featured in that scene were stated to have been Mbodys.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Excalibur: Rachel give in rather than fight with Galactus. Both then realized the Phoenix Forces death was one of the primal forces that was essential to the universe just like Galactus so Galactus set it free. A being like Galactus had the power to kill the Force permanently to which Roma, Death, and Watch agreed and was there to prevent.

Phoenix Ressurection: Genesis - an alien vessel pulls the Phoenix Force from the 616 into the Ultraverse and they fought. The ship injuries the Phoenix Force to the point that it ran to find a human host.

Phoenix Resurrection: Revelations - The Phoenix Force is drawn out of Amber Hunt where the ship absorbs it to power it's engine. Wolverine (lol) along with the X-Men and Ultra Force destroy the ships engine to free the Phoenix Force. A portal is opened where the two teams successfully attacked and steered Phoenix Force into a portal.

New X-Men - Xorn kills Jean and shatters the Phoenix Force into a billion pieces.

X-Men: Phoenix - Endsong - The Phoenix Force is dragged from the White Hot Room by a Shi'Ar device as they attempt to permanently destroy it.

Uncanny X-Men - Prior to encountering Jean, the Phoenix Force merged with a Shi'Ar named Rook Shir who used it's power to lay waste to the Empire. The Shi'Ar sent Gladiator and the Imperial Guards who hunted Rook Shir down and killed him (Gladiator beheaded him).

Two low showings? Yeah right.

Excalibur- Rachel surrendered rather than engage Galactus in a battle that would have destroyed her planet. Earth isnt Galactus' planet he had no such qualms.

Phoenix Res: Genesis- Incorrect. As the avatar is flyying through space the ship opens a portal immediately in front of it before the avatar had a chance to change direction. It wasnt dragged. The ship harmed the Forces avatar. Thats all the firebird is. The totality of the Force is the energies of creation, as stated in the handbook it is the multiversal nexus of psi energy, if all that was the Phoenix was encompassed within that firebird as the Big Bang there would be a void everywhere else. Just like Eternity manifests within the universe that is his totality as an Mbody, the Force is represented via the little firebird. Down with bias 👇

Phoenix Res: Revelations- The Phoenix avatar is stated on panel to be weaker in the Ultraverse because it is just a fragment of the Phoenix away from its source the Big Bang. It was a plot device that facilitated the story. Otherwise those things couldnt have happened to the avatar. Know your stuff!! Furthermore the fact that the avatar was used as fuel and then just reformed straight out of the engine immediately afterwards speaks for the avatars top tier durability.

New X-men- Xorn basically backstabs Jean who was knelt down and comforting him. The woman had just flown from the Sun in the previous issue. If she was battle ready then an EMP wave would have done nothing. Her guard was down. Furthermore only the Force that resided in her was shattered. So your point is redundant. As ive stated many a time, multiple firebird manifestations can be in operation in reality and each one of them and all they do is attributed to the Phoenix Force. Before and after the shattering at Xorns hands you had the intact Phoenix Force that resided in the Blade of The Phoenix. It was unaffected.

Endsong- Only a fragment of the Force was featured in this story. As ive stated, the Firebird isnt the totality of the Force, that is just an avatar as stated on panel:

The multiversal feat of joining all realities in Marvel to Otherworld was accomplished by the Forces Firebird avatar, a mere representation.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
We have Scathan and LT at the trial of a multiversal threat. Yup and Phoenix a no show yet again. Shaking the creation? Where's that at? Protege showing vs Xorn showing. Lol. WTF?

The M'kraan crystal destroyed and recreated the previous multiverse. It is the biggest threat in Marvel when unleashed. Where was LT to stop it? The Phoenix Force was at hand and contained its energies.

Necrom was going to use the Phoenix Force to compress all realities of the multiverse into a singularity.

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Where was LT? I thought he was there to safeguard the multiverse? 😖hifty:

Rachel killed Necrom with the Force.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Stop with this avatar nonsense. It wasn't it's avatar when the Entity ship pulled the Phoenix Force into the Ultraverse and weakened it to the point it had to find a host to hide it. Then dragged it out from it's host to use as fuel. It's wasn't an avatar when the Phoenix Force got beaten into a portal by the X-Men and Ultra Force. It wasn't an avatar when Xorn shattered it or when the Shi'Ar dragged it out from the WHR. You're speculating again. It's the actual Force and your precious hand book even states it clear as do because the actual books state it clear as day. The Phoenix Force was shattered into a billion pieces. The Phoenix Force tried to hide from the Entity ship. The Shi'Ar are attempted to destroy the Phoenix Force.

As ive shown repeatedly and as you repeatedly continue to ignore, it was an avatar. That is what the firebird is, it is just a representation of the Force within reality. It is not its totality.

As ive shown, fragments of the Force such as those featured in endsong and warsong all are mentioned under the Phoenix Force bio because thats what they are, they are representations of it.

Heres Rachel being controlled by the Phoenix Force AVATAR:

The Force can never manifest within reality in its totality because its totality is the energies that make reality.

Further to my point:

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"The cosmic avatar she hosts"

Rachel and all hosts are just in possession of a representation of the Force. The full Force in its totality cannot be embodied in one being or one firebird without robbing the rest of reality of its energies.

The Firebird is just an AVATAR. A fragment of the Force, a representation. However if you go to the bio, there is no distinction made. Why? Because it is still the Force in action, just in a reduced capacity within reality.

WWK you are wrong.......as ever 👇

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I get exactly what you were trying to say with regards to TOAA. Its just that your argument was dump and lacked relevance to this thread. Thats all smile

Yeah, I saw enough from you.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The abundance of smileys doesn't hide your pain Xp.

Hhahahahahahahaha.
You literally feel pain when just think about someone being more powerful to PF.

Then I thought ''What is even GS thinking''..., I mean you are ridiculous to the core, then I literally laughed to you, because you are a joke.

Thank you for making me laugh.

And GS, can you show me some panels Phoenix Force being the Big Bang, but not just on words, show me this is it. I saw once a panel (years ago) where there was creation of the universe and it was actually happening, but no mention of the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by Xplosive
And GS, can you show me some panels Phoenix Force being the Big Bang, but not just on words, show me this is it. I saw once a panel (years ago) where there was creation of the universe and it was actually happening, but no mention of the Phoenix Force.

Of course Xp.

I can show u a scan that shows the Phoenix Force as the sentient energies of the Big Bang:

The Phoenix Force after the death of the previous multiverse was reset by the M'kraan crystal as the formless energies of the Big Bang before it awoke to reality again.

The Phoenix avatar is a representation of this creation power, a flame from the Big Bang:

What does that say about the Phoenix Force itself? 😖hifty:

Tell em Reed! 😄 The Phoenix Force is one and the same as the Big Bang.

All that exists in a reality is derived from the energies of the Phoenix Force. TOAA's creation power. 🙂

I'll tell you what. Can you now show me scans of LT demonstrating hes the supreme power in existence. Not just statements, actual feats. 😕

Lets leave it at that shall we? 😄

For what I asked, I am only satisfied with the first one. And that is more than enough. Cool. Thanks!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All that exists in a reality is derived from the energies of the Phoenix Force. TOAA's creation power. 🙂

Correct. I like that. 😉

Originally posted by Xplosive
Correct. I like that. 😉

No one denied that Xp.

That is where you got confused. If you look back at my statements BEFORE you went into your creator rant, i said that the Phoenix Force itself was created, i stated that the Force never created reality, however that doesnt change the fact that it is the creation power of existence. So when people talk about how Sise Neg or Genis Vell created a Big Bang, i always correct them and say they merely triggered it and it was not from scratch but by manipulating energies that were already there, energies that make up the Phoenix Force.

If you'd read my posts which once again came BEFORE your unnecessary rant you would not have wasted your time. Oh well 🙂

Yes yes, I agree. I admit as admitted before, sometimes I do things just on purpose. Well, I can't get rid of false ego just like that. 🙂

Now it's all cool. Now I remember that first scan. I saw it years ago, but forgot it in time.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So when people talk about how Sise Neg or Genis Vell created a Big Bang, i always correct them and say they merely triggered it and it was not from scratch but by manipulating energies that were already there, energies that make up the Phoenix Force.

I agree. He was indeed extremely powerful, but he was never a creation power. He was Sise Neg, went back and tirggered it.

nah

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The megaverse is just a grouping Marvel came up with to identify a few comic properties they possess that dont share enough similarities with the multiverse to be one of its divergent realities, however it more closely ties to marvels multiverse than another comic companies.

So far there are about 2 or 3 universes that come under this grouping, so the answer to your question is NO 🙂

The megaverse isnt the multiverse AND these few realities. It is JUST this band of realities just outside of the multiverse. So the megaverse at this point isnt bigger than the multiverse, it is composed of a few universes. Nowhere near.

Hes stated to be the supreme entity in Marvel just below TOAA, however his showings on panel show that hes not infallible. His actions have been thwarted, he has stated theres a limit to how far hes willing to go to protect a reality and his Mbody has been destroyed by Reed Richards. All of those low showings and not a single truly impressive feat to date.

Feats wise at least, Jean Grey and the Phoenix Force trump LT. Im happy with that 🙂

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Your useful contribution to this thread minimal as it was is pretty much over.

Thank you

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

Excalibur- Rachel surrendered rather than engage Galactus in a battle that would have destroyed her planet. Earth isnt Galactus' planet he had no such qualms.

Phoenix Res: Genesis- Incorrect. As the avatar is flyying through space the ship opens a portal immediately in front of it before the avatar had a chance to change direction. It wasnt dragged. The ship harmed the Forces avatar. Thats all the firebird is. The totality of the Force is the energies of creation, as stated in the handbook it is the multiversal nexus of psi energy, if all that was the Phoenix was encompassed within that firebird as the Big Bang there would be a void everywhere else. Just like Eternity manifests within the universe that is his totality as an Mbody, the Force is represented via the little firebird. Down with bias

Phoenix Res: Revelations- The Phoenix avatar is stated on panel to be weaker in the Ultraverse because it is just a fragment of the Phoenix away from its source the Big Bang. It was a plot device that facilitated the story. Otherwise those things couldnt have happened to the avatar. Know your stuff!! Furthermore the fact that the avatar was used as fuel and then just reformed straight out of the engine immediately afterwards speaks for the avatars top tier durability.

New X-men- Xorn basically backstabs Jean who was knelt down and comforting him. The woman had just flown from the Sun in the previous issue. If she was battle ready then an EMP wave would have done nothing. Her guard was down. Furthermore only the Force that resided in her was shattered. So your point is redundant. As ive stated many a time, multiple firebird manifestations can be in operation in reality and each one of them and all they do is attributed to the Phoenix Force. Before and after the shattering at Xorns hands you had the intact Phoenix Force that resided in the Blade of The Phoenix. It was unaffected.