Dark Phoenix vs Scarlet Witch

Originally posted by zopzop

I see reading comprehension isn't one of your strong points. Everyone at the trial was an M-body, Adam excluded. Ziran and LT stood their ground when Warlock attempted to swat them away. Most everyone agrees that Eternity and other higher level abstracts like Order/Chaos are more powerful than any single Celestial (Scathan and maybe the exalted Tiamut excluded).

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm

"These forms" (M-bodys) "have access to the full power of the original being"

😬 ... So please, enough with this "M-body" argument with no substance.

Originally posted by zopzop

Given on panel evidence it's obvious the M-body doesn't necessarily inherit all of the original abstractions power (hence why Ziran's withstood the attack but Eternity/Order/Chaos couldn't). The LT snapping his fingers and restoring mannequins is a worthless feat. The fact that you don't see it, is because you are desperate for any on panel showing of power from the LT.

What's obvious is that you're not really posting with knowledge concerning Fractals.

Originally posted by zopzop

Yes stupid enough to see that Marvel keeps retconning and reducing their importance from creators to architects to guardians. And again this assumes he had their actuality in his hands.

Simple, and put.

He also spins the destiny of all reality in the other hand.

Originally posted by zopzop

Do yourself a favor and look at the scans GS provided to enlighten your bitter and angry self. Then do yourself another favor and find yourself a dictionary and look up the word "Avatar". Then you can drop this and stop making a fool of yourself.

This is GS's famous cop-out argument. 😂

"Avatar" my ass, the PF (hostless) has been stomped by Xorn,
stomped by the Shiar,
nearly killed by some alien ship,
nearly killed by Galactus,
and worst of all, stalemated by 6 heroes. (one of which was Rogue)

Originally posted by zopzop

And the LT himself was killed by Reed, so what's your point?

"LT was killed by Reed" ... 😆

Reed couldn't kill the LT in his wildest dream.

Oh I see, you looked at the pretty cropped bias scan and never read the story.

Originally posted by zopzop

Fact remains Giraud saved Eternity (and hence the universe) from destruction and it's stated on panel.

Meh, nice, but Giraud didn't heal 691 Eternity, 691 Eternity healed himself.

But again, I guess you're just picking fragmented scans as you go by.

Originally posted by zopzop

LT couldn't do jack to the Protege and resorted to stealing power from an artifact to even pass judgment on the Protege.

Protege was a prototype to be GOD!

His evolutionary destiny was accelerated,
and Humanity's destiny is to become greater than the abstracts, even the LT.
He was stopped because he was an abomination risen before that destiny's time,
so TOAA sent Scathan to do what no one else could.

Originally posted by zopzop

Where did Giraud call Eternity mighty? He called him "infinite one" which is what he is. And how do you know that was an M-body and not Eternity himself? Show me the last time an attack on an M-body of Eternity affected the universe. Since you love running your mouth and calling people stupid, this should be an easy feat. Giraud healing Eternity's "M-body" shook creation and taught an abstract concept the meaning of the word pain. That's pretty damn impressive and it was accomplished under his own power with no outside help (unlike the LT).

BTW. I'm sure the most pain an alternate Eternity felt was when it was nullified.
Uhm yea,
I remember that specific alternate Eternity sobbing over its murdered fragment.

Cause that's what Giraud did, cauterize the wound of an alternate Eternity.

Originally posted by zopzop

Actually no. The LT couldn't force the IG from Adam's hand. The LT couldn't force the IG to stop functioning until Adam submitted to his judgment.

The LT guilted Adam into stepping down from the fight.

But from the very start, the LT told Warlock:
"I represent forces that dwarf even your might"

Proven when he effortlessly tanked a fully raged Warlock attack,
and then proceeded to nullify said attack while restoring the hierarchy.

The LT never said "I can't take the IG," or "maybe I could take the IG"

NO!

The LT said, "such a confrontation would lay waste to this Reality"

Cool, but the glove still goes. 🙂

Originally posted by zopzop

See this? This is how i know your full of xxxx otherwise you'd post scans of the LT destroying galaxies/reigniting long dead stars and shaking the multiverse on panel. But you have nothing so you act like a child throwing a tantrum.

The LT withstood and nullified the furious attack of an IG wielder,
same IG that stomped the entire cosmic hierarchy simultaneously,
same IG that stomped 616 Eternity in one move.

The LT gave the Silver Surfer a moment of Godhood
when he transformed SS into the infinite (all reality)
And all it took was for SS to touch the LT.

The LT stomped Nebulous,
a creature that contained the evil energy of all reality.

The LT, once warped reality as no one ever had, or has since,
when the Beyonder & Protege fought.

The LT ripped Korvac's entire Universe from the Multiverse
and then placed it in an impenetrable barrier,
which even Korvac who stomped Multiversal powers could not escape.

I could go on but meh, what's the point.

Originally posted by zopzop
See this? This is how i know your full of xxxx otherwise you'd post scans of the LT destroying galaxies/reigniting long dead stars and shaking the multiverse on panel. But you have nothing so you act like a child throwing a tantrum.

Ok, LT didn't go to shake multiverse, but what do you want to say with this? That if Odin did it, LT can't (you need proof)? That Odin could give LT challenge? Or you are smart enough to see that feat has no weight for Odin when comparing him to LT, that it really doesn't matter, because Odin still, simply LT barely acknowledges him.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The LT on panel one shotted Slorioth.
Slorioth was eating entire Universes like candy.

I didn't know that. Kool.

Originally posted by Mr Master
So now it's the real alternate Eternity and not an "M-body" when it fits your argument.
Yet it's not like it makes a difference
since M-bodys contain the FULL power of the Concept it represents.

It's confirmed M-bodies have access to full power, but why did Eternity say to Adam with IG that if it would have been its totaliy, IG would have nothing on it?
Or maybe in that case, Eternity didn't empower himself fully on purpose?

Originally posted by Mr Master
😐 .... I see you didn't know that M-bodys are how Conceptual beings manifest in reality,
that,
and the fact that these "M-bodys" have access to the FULL Power of the abstract they represent:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/anthropo.htm

"These forms" (M-bodys) "have access to the [b]full power of the original being"

😬 ... So please, enough with this "M-body" argument with no substance.

This argument has been derailed right above.

What's obvious is that you're not really posting with knowledge concerning Fractals.

On panel, on panel, we have Ziran and LT's M-bodies withstanding Warlock's cosmic backhand. On panel we have Eternity stating that if this had been the real him and not a visualization then Warlock's earlier blast against him would have done nothing. If M-bodies have full access to the powers of the actual being as you say, then Ziran out-tanked a blast that sent the entire cosmic hierarchy except LT flying like rag dolls. So Ziran > Eternity/Chaos/Order/Love/Hate/Galactus/Watcher/Eon.

So the M-body of LT who supposedly has access to his full powers, couldn't force the Gauntlet from Warlock's hand and couldn't shut down the Gauntlet without Warlock submitting to his judgment.

The LT held in his hand the creators/guardians of Two freaking Megaverses.

Simple, and put.

He also spins the destiny of all reality in the other hand.

They went from Creators, to architects, to mere guardians. I'd call that a downgrade wouldn't you? All this is assuming he even had their actuality in his hand.

And it's been stated on panel that the Odin is omnipotent what's your point?

[This is GS's famous cop-out argument. 😂

"Avatar" my ass, the PF (hostless) has been stomped by Xorn,
stomped by the Shiar,
nearly killed by some alien ship,
nearly killed by Galactus,
and worst of all, stalemated by 6 heroes. (one of which was Rogue)

You post with such confidence and yet this is 100% bull shit

"LT was killed by Reed" ... 😆

Reed couldn't kill the LT in his wildest dream.

Oh I see, you looked at the pretty cropped bias scan and never read the story.

GS provided scans repeatedly calling the portion of the PF within the host as an avatar. You don't like it take it up with Marvel, he's just posting what they wrote.

Wow, Giraud cauterized that Alternate Eternity's wound.

Meh, nice, but Giraud didn't heal 691 Eternity, 691 Eternity healed himself.

But again, I guess you're just picking fragmented scans as you go
by.

So now it's the real alternate Eternity and not an "M-body" when it fits your argument.
Yet it's not like it makes a difference
since M-bodys contain the FULL power of the Concept it represents.

BTW. I'm sure the most pain an alternate Eternity felt was when it was nullified.
Uhm yea,
I remember that specific alternate Eternity sobbing over its murdered fragment.

Cause that's what Giraud did, cauterize the wound of an alternate Eternity.

Ok then why couldn't "infinite" Eternity arrest the spread of the cosmic cancer under his own power (he stated on panel he was dying)? Why when Mainframe offered to call anyone he could to his aid, the LT or the Celestials, Eternity said no, only the PF would do?

Why, if that was merely an M-body of Eternity, did all creation quake and Eternity first taste pain? I asked when has an assault on an M-body so affected the actual being? When Warlock gut punched Eternity at the trial, 616 didn't quake or tremble.

And how exactly does that demean the LT's power?

Protege was a prototype to be GOD!

His evolutionary destiny was accelerated,
and Humanity's destiny is to become greater than the abstracts, even the LT.
He was stopped because he was an abomination risen before that destiny's time,
so TOAA sent Scathan to do what no one else could.

You are merely making up stories. TOAA sent Scathan, really? This is stated on panel or in a handbook? Because I have yet to see it.

Fact remains Scathan saved the day and then the Eye of Agamotto pulled the LT's fat out of the fire by helping imprison the Protege. The fact that he had to do it on the download and still got caught out by Talon is especially hilarious. Hiding your shame LT?

Or it could be that since Warlock had just saved All Reality,
and was now the new in-reality supreme being,
the LT gave Warlock a chance to give up willingly.

But from the very start, the LT told Warlock:
"I represent forces that dwarf even your might"

Proven when he effortlessly tanked a fully raged Warlock attack,
and then proceeded to nullify said attack while restoring the hierarchy.

The LT never said "I can't take the IG," or "maybe I could take the IG"

NO!

The LT said, "such a confrontation would lay waste to this Reality"

Cool, but the glove still goes. 🙂

Yeah the LT said he represents forces above the IG. Then proceeds to guilt trip him out of a fight. He couldn't forcibly remove the IG from him or shut it down without him subjecting it to his judgment.

The LT on panel one shotted Slorioth.
Slorioth was eating entire Universes like candy.

The LT withstood and nullified the furious attack of an IG wielder,
same IG that stomped the entire cosmic hierarchy simultaneously,
same IG that stomped 616 Eternity in one move.

The LT gave the Silver Surfer a moment of Godhood
when he transformed SS into the infinite (all reality)
And all it took was for SS to touch the LT.

The LT stomped Nebulous,
a creature that contained the evil energy of all reality.

The LT, once warped reality as no one ever had, or has since,
when the Beyonder & Protege fought.

The LT ripped Korvac's entire Universe from the Multiverse
and then placed it in an impenetrable barrier,
which even Korvac who stomped Multiversal powers could not escape.

I could go on but meh, what's the point.

Unless I'm mistaken, the LT opened a portal to another dimension and allowed Slorioth to feed at will there. That's not "one shotting".

The LT's ultimate punishment was to make a star go nova, then flee from Korvac.

The LT merely gave the Surfer cosmic awareness as stated in the handbook. Because on panel it's nothing more than what the PF gave to Mastermind, not once but twice.

At the Trial, Ziran also withstood the blast, bracing, but he withstood. The LT has never faced off against an IG wielder out for blood like Thanos.

Originally posted by zopzop
I see reading comprehension isn't one of your strong points. Everyone at the trial was an M-body, Adam excluded. Ziran and LT stood their ground when Warlock attempted to swat them away. Most everyone agrees that Eternity and other higher level abstracts like Order/Chaos are more powerful than any single Celestial (Scathan and maybe the exalted Tiamut excluded). Given on panel evidence it's obvious the M-body doesn't necessarily inherit all of the original abstractions power (hence why Ziran's withstood the attack but Eternity/Order/Chaos couldn't). The LT snapping his fingers and restoring mannequins is a worthless feat. The fact that you don't see it, is because you are desperate for any on panel showing of power from the LT.

So pretty much you've got nothing to answer for an M-body having the power to fight an IG wielder and wreck the totality of the 616. I thought so. Not much to debate here seeing as an M-body could do that to an IG wielder.

Yes stupid enough to see that Marvel keeps retconning and reducing their importance from creators to architects to guardians. And again this assumes he had their actuality in his hands.

lol. They build new realities which is more than you can say about the Phoenix Force. That guardian part is from a handbook and only a noob like you would try and use it as evidence of a retcon.

Do yourself a favor and look at the scans GS provided to enlighten your bitter and angry self. Then do yourself another favor and find yourself a dictionary and look up the word "Avatar". Then you can drop this and stop making a fool of yourself.

lol, I've seen every scan GS has provided. Him trying to claim they're all avatars is just another excuse you're trying to make. Where does it say in the actual appearances that those were Avatars that were getting stomped. The only way you can compare the Phoenix Force to LT in power would be by speculating.

And the LT himself was killed by Reed, so what's your point?

Really? He was killed. Lol. Please bring this up more when you debate against LT. Such nonsense should entertain the entire board.

How do we know how much power Giraud was pumping into Strange? On panel Rachel gave Necrom the whole PF she contained and it blew him up. Why would Giraud pump a frail old man with every ounce of power he had?

Because before that when he had a chance to defeat Dormammu, he failed. Hence they amped Strange with power try and defeat Dormammu. Why try and amp someone if you could defeat the foe yourself?

Fact remains Giraud saved Eternity (and hence the universe) from destruction and it's stated on panel. LT couldn't do jack to the Protege and resorted to stealing power from an artifact to even pass judgment on the Protege.

The fact remains that Eternity is one universe while Protege was a multiversal power. The fact remains, given the chance, Giraud failed at defeating Dormammu and so channeled his powers along with the other GOTG members into Strange in hopes that he would defeat Dormammu - fail.

Protege is a mutliversal power that attracted the attention LT, Scathan, Hawk God, and Eternity. Bubonicus infected Eternity and attracted the attention of no one save another footsoldier of Eternity, the Phoenix Force.

Where did Giraud call Eternity mighty? He called him "infinite one" which is what he is. And how do you know that was an M-body and not Eternity himself?

LMAO. Because Eternity a universe. You only see him like that because he uses an M-body. Eternity is not like the Living Tribunal, Galactus, Stranger, Protege, or say Beyonder. You want to see Eternity as he is then you'd be looking at a universe genius, not something with hands and feet. This is why it's so amusing to argue with you.

Show me the last time an attack on an M-body of Eternity affected the universe. Since you love running your mouth and calling people stupid, this should be an easy feat. Giraud healing Eternity's "M-body" shook creation and taught an abstract concept the meaning of the word pain. That's pretty damn impressive and it was accomplished under his own power with no outside help (unlike the LT).

Already happened when Dormammu fought Eternity. He enter Eternity's M-body and exploded inside Eternity, wrecking the cosmos that is Eternity, exploding outward into the netherworld they were in. It was an empty netherworld until Dormammu destroyed Eternity's M-body and Strange was caught in the cosmic maelstrom and was only saved by the Ancient One.

LT's M-body told an IG user to give up his power of wrestle over it in a fight that would've wrecked the totality of Eternity, no help at all. Much more impressive.

Actually no. The LT couldn't force the IG from Adam's hand. The LT couldn't force the IG to stop functioning until Adam submitted to his judgment. The LT guilted Adam into stepping down from the fight.

Nah, Warlock could've restored reality if he wanted too. He couldn't win and he knew it. He did nothing to the LT while affected the IG's power. And that was just an M-body. That's more than you can say for any of the abstracts that fought any of the IG users. What was Warlock going to do, attack the M-body while it sat there again and bath in it like it was sunlight?

See this? This is how i know your full of xxxx otherwise you'd post scans of the LT destroying galaxies/reigniting long dead stars and shaking the multiverse on panel. But you have nothing so you act like a child throwing a tantrum.

See, in other words you have nothing. Why am I bothering by this point anymore? Odin was barely noticed by LT.

Originally posted by zopzop
On panel, on panel, we have Ziran and LT's M-bodies withstanding Warlock's cosmic backhand. On panel we have Eternity stating that if this had been the real him and not a visualization then Warlock's earlier blast against him would have done nothing. If M-bodies have full access to the powers of the actual being as you say, then Ziran out-tanked a blast that sent the entire cosmic hierarchy except LT flying like rag dolls. So Ziran > Eternity/Chaos/Order/Love/Hate/Galactus/Watcher/Eon.

Tanked? How the hell is it tanking a blast when he covered his face and braced for it? If Warlock kept it up, are you suggesting Ziran could've lasted on his feet? He cover his face again when Warlock merely activated his power while LT stood right in front of the power. You're nonsense is amusing, by this point you're just in denial. This is the same b.s. is saying Thanos is equal to Odin because he survived the fight while doing nothing to Odin.

And it's been stated on panel that the Odin is omnipotent what's your point?

So Odin creates realities? Odin was stuck on Asgard when his rainbow bridge was destroyed as a side effect by an IG user. Omnipotent Odin was also turned into a veggie head by mere poison. Omnipotent Odin is almost as bad as the Phoenix Force.

GS provided scans repeatedly calling the portion of the PF within the host as an avatar. You don't like it take it up with Marvel, he's just posting what they wrote.

lol. That's one scan. If you want to apply that to every showing, then give actual references to each showing. Don't give some random crap regarding avatars and try to apply it to everry appearance when it does not. Once again, nothing to see here folks. Just some noob speculating once again.

Ok then why couldn't "infinite" Eternity arrest the spread of the cosmic cancer under his own power (he stated on panel he was dying)? Why when Mainframe offered to call anyone he could to his aid, the LT or the Celestials, Eternity said no, only the PF would do?

Just because some computer calls, it doesn't mean LT shows up. It was threat to one universe that could be dealt with without needing the Tribunal. Hence why they called in Phoenix Force.

You are merely making up stories. TOAA sent Scathan, really? This is stated on panel or in a handbook? Because I have yet to see it.

WTF does it matter by this point because even when evidence is given you ignore it. Protege attracted the attention of 4 cosmics while Bubinocus attracted the attention of two.

Fact remains Scathan saved the day and then the Eye of Agamotto pulled the LT's fat out of the fire by helping imprison the Protege. The fact that he had to do it on the download and still got caught out by Talon is especially hilarious. Hiding your shame LT?

Kinda like how it went down with Dormammu huh when Giraud twice failed to put down Dormammu while a new SS with the Eye did the job. Still nothing from you except trying to say LT's weak when he faced a multiversal being that could copy the powers of most abstracts while Phoenix Force failed to stop Dormammu. Some logic there.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So pretty much you've got nothing to answer for an M-body having the power to fight an IG wielder and wreck the totality of the 616. I thought so. Not much to debate here seeing as an M-body could do that to an IG wielder.

Not at all. The handbook site states that the Mbodys have full access to the entities power and yet the comic itself states that the entities can imbue a mbody with varying degrees of their totality. So whilst they CAN have full access, thats not always the case, as clearly illustrated by comparatively low and limited showings from a variety of Mbodys. On panel is always greater than a handbook reference.

LT never conclusively had the power to fight the IG because the fight never happened. If you are stating this because he withstood Adams attack then you have to acknowledge Zirans ability to fight the IG by your logic.

If you are saying that because he disabled its power, he only did so to an unmanned IG. When the IG was manned he had to guilt trip Adam out of a fight. If he could just disable the power regardless he wouldve done so as soon as he'd decided that Adam was in the wrong. He didnt 😬

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
lol. They build new realities which is more than you can say about the Phoenix Force. That guardian part is from a handbook and only a noob like you would try and use it as evidence of a retcon.

Nope. That is not what an architect does. Architects design. You are not getting around that term im afraid. The Phoenix Force empowers realities and everything within, making life possible.

Oh so you do believe on panel is greater than a handbook reference. Go back to your previous point about Mbodys and concede then.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
lol, I've seen every scan GS has provided. Him trying to claim they're all avatars is just another excuse you're trying to make. Where does it say in the actual appearances that those were Avatars that were getting stomped. The only way you can compare the Phoenix Force to LT in power would be by speculating.

Every scan ive provided states clear and explicitly that the firebird is just an avatar of the force.

Just like Eternity must appear as that black humanoid figure to act within himself, the Phoenix Force as the ambient life energies of creation cannot appear in its totality without robbing life from everywhere else. There it is expressed as that firebird, a portion of itself within reality.

It is stated on panel to just be an avatar. You have been wrong all this time, your arguments have been poorly researched. You'll get over it.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Really? He was killed. Lol. Please bring this up more when you debate against LT. Such nonsense should entertain the entire board.

Yes. LT's mbody got totaled by Reed Richards energy canon. Boo hoo.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Because before that when he had a chance to defeat Dormammu, he failed. Hence they amped Strange with power try and defeat Dormammu. Why try and amp someone if you could defeat the foe yourself?

In answer to your question, Strange is the Sorcerer Supreme, with battle experience against Dormammu and great knowledge of all things mystic which makes him a far greater authority on Dormammu than an inexperienced Phoenix host with no knowledge of magic.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
The fact remains that Eternity is one universe while Protege was a multiversal power. The fact remains, given the chance, Giraud failed at defeating Dormammu and so channeled his powers along with the other GOTG members into Strange in hopes that he would defeat Dormammu - fail.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Protege is a mutliversal power that attracted the attention LT, Scathan, Hawk God, and Eternity. Bubonicus infected Eternity and attracted the attention of no one save another footsoldier of Eternity, the Phoenix Force.

And yet you have many stories where LT never get involved in events of multiversal/omniversal consequence. e.g The M'kraan crystal and Chaos Wave events.

It happens on both sides. Be objective.

Furthermore the Phoenix Force is these days acknowledged by Marvel as a multiversal force. Please keep up to date 🙂

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
LMAO. Because Eternity a universe. You only see him like that because he uses an M-body. Eternity is not like the Living Tribunal, Galactus, Stranger, Protege, or say Beyonder. You want to see Eternity as he is then you'd be looking at a universe genius, not something with hands and feet. This is why it's so amusing to argue with you.

Not true at all. As you know Mr Master has posted scenes from a What If where occasionally the entirety of the universe has been represented artistically as the Mbody figure. Its not the norm but it has happened.

You know what im talking about. Dont make me go through the hassle of finding out the particular issue just to prove you wrong more conclusively.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Already happened when Dormammu fought Eternity. He enter Eternity's M-body and exploded inside Eternity, wrecking the cosmos that is Eternity, exploding outward into the netherworld they were in. It was an empty netherworld until Dormammu destroyed Eternity's M-body and Strange was caught in the cosmic maelstrom and was only saved by the Ancient One.

In following issues of GOTG we see the cauterized (by Phoenix) wound in time space therefore we know conclusively that Giraud was dealing with the actual universe however it was artistically presented to us with the familiar eternity figure.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
LT's M-body told an IG user to give up his power of wrestle over it in a fight that would've wrecked the totality of Eternity, no help at all. Much more impressive.

LT persuaded Adam to give up, he didnt force him. The battle never actually happened so you have no "much more impressive" feat. Once again boo hoo.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So pretty much you've got nothing to answer for an M-body having the power to fight an IG wielder and wreck the totality of the 616. I thought so. Not much to debate here seeing as an M-body could do that to an IG wielder.

It never happened.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Nah, Warlock could've restored reality if he wanted too. He couldn't win and he knew it. He did nothing to the LT while affected the IG's power. And that was just an M-body. That's more than you can say for any of the abstracts that fought any of the IG users. What was Warlock going to do, attack the M-body while it sat there again and bath in it like it was sunlight?

Speculation. It never happened. He did nothing to LT but also nothing to Ziran, it wasnt a killing blast so your point is poor.

LT can only appear in M body form because he is just a concept, so your repeated statements referring to it just being an mbody are nonsensical and stem from a misunderstanding of the characters youre referring to 🙁

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
See, in other words you have nothing. Why am I bothering by this point anymore? Odin was barely noticed by LT.

Irrelevant. The point we're making is for all the high regard LT is held in, he has no feats to back them up. He has shown hes limited, hes stated there are limits to how far hes willing to go in saving a universe and he has had his mbodys destroyed. He is not the infallible supreme power you make him out to be.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So pretty much you've got nothing to answer for an M-body having the power to fight an IG wielder and wreck the totality of the 616. I thought so. Not much to debate here seeing as an M-body could do that to an IG wielder.

LT's M-body told an IG user to give up his power of wrestle over it in a fight that would've wrecked the totality of Eternity, no help at all. Much more impressive.

Nah, Warlock could've restored reality if he wanted too. He couldn't win and he knew it. He did nothing to the LT while affected the IG's power. And that was just an M-body. That's more than you can say for any of the abstracts that fought any of the IG users. What was Warlock going to do, attack the M-body while it sat there again and bath in it like it was sunlight?

Tanked? How the hell is it tanking a blast when he covered his face and braced for it? If Warlock kept it up, are you suggesting Ziran could've lasted on his feet? He cover his face again when Warlock merely activated his power while LT stood right in front of the power. You're nonsense is amusing, by this point you're just in denial. This is the same b.s. is saying Thanos is equal to Odin because he survived the fight while doing nothing to Odin.

On panel we have Ziran's M-body (we know for sure they were all M-bodies) tanking a blast that sent other supposedly higher level abstracts and cosmics flying.

On panel the LT couldn't force the Gauntlet from Adam's hand and couldn't shut down the Gauntlet without Adam consenting to his judgment (hence the guilt trip).

Adam wasn't out for blood. Neither of his blasts were meant to kill Eternity or the other members of the court.

And supposedly from the source Mr. Master quoted from, they wouldn't have destroyed 616 if they fought, just the dimension of manifestations.

lol. They build new realities which is more than you can say about the Phoenix Force. That guardian part is from a handbook and only a noob like you would try and use it as evidence of a retcon.

Architects do not build ANYTHING! Look up the definition of the word please. Also they were retconned down to mere guardians by Official Marvel info. Don't complain to me. It seems like Marvel is trying to power them down.

And again, this assumes he had their actuality in his hands and not an image. I brought up the Odin dying incident because the LT had an image of Odin's soul in his hand. Doesn't mean he held it's actuality or anything. It was just an image.

lol, I've seen every scan GS has provided. Him trying to claim they're all avatars is just another excuse you're trying to make. Where does it say in the actual appearances that those were Avatars that were getting stomped. The only way you can compare the Phoenix Force to LT in power would be by speculating.

It freaking says on panel, "the cosmic avatar within". I don't know how to make this clearer to you.

Because before that when he had a chance to defeat Dormammu, he failed. Hence they amped Strange with power try and defeat Dormammu. Why try and amp someone if you could defeat the foe yourself?

Kinda like how it went down with Dormammu huh when Giraud twice failed to put down Dormammu while a new SS with the Eye did the job. Still nothing from you except trying to say LT's weak when he faced a multiversal being that could copy the powers of most abstracts while Phoenix Force failed to stop Dormammu. Some logic there.

Kinda like how it went down with Dormammu huh when Giraud twice failed to put down Dormammu while a new SS with the Eye did the job. Still nothing from you except trying to say LT's weak when he faced a multiversal being that could copy the powers of most abstracts while Phoenix Force failed to stop Dormammu. Some logic there.

Dormammu and Giraud did nothing to each other in that fight. He knocked Giraud backward, Giraud burned his hand. That's about it. "Channeling" your power through a frail old man doesn't amount to much.

Also Kruegarr the then Sorcerer Supreme also took down Korvac, something the LT has yet to do. Yet you don't hold this against the LT.

The fact remains that Eternity is one universe while Protege was a multiversal power. The fact remains, given the chance, Giraud failed at defeating Dormammu and so channeled his powers along with the other GOTG members into Strange in hopes that he would defeat Dormammu - fail.

Protege is a mutliversal power that attracted the attention LT, Scathan, Hawk God, and Eternity. Bubonicus infected Eternity and attracted the attention of no one save another footsoldier of Eternity, the Phoenix Force.

LMAO. Because Eternity a universe. You only see him like that because he uses an M-body. Eternity is not like the Living Tribunal, Galactus, Stranger, Protege, or say Beyonder. You want to see Eternity as he is then you'd be looking at a universe genius, not something with hands and feet. This is why it's so amusing to argue with you.

Already happened when Dormammu fought Eternity. He enter Eternity's M-body and exploded inside Eternity, wrecking the cosmos that is Eternity, exploding outward into the netherworld they were in. It was an empty netherworld until Dormammu destroyed Eternity's M-body and Strange was caught in the cosmic maelstrom and was only saved by the Ancient One.

The fact remains that LT didn't do anything to Protege as shown on panel and restated in his Handbook entry. He didn't stop his rampage or restrain him. That was Scathan. He couldn't pass judgment and imprison him without stealing power from the Eye of Agamotto. Like I said, to cover his humiliation, he did it secretly and was still caught out by a novice magician Talon.

Eternity was asked who he needed to help cure him. The LT and the Celestials names were brought up as examples. He specifically said NO, his only hope was the PF.

And thank you for the Dormmamu/Eternity incident. So that attack against Eternity was against his actuality and not mere an M-body.

See, in other words you have nothing. Why am I bothering by this point anymore? Odin was barely noticed by LT.

Odin barely noticed the LT. But Odin has on panel feats that dwarf anything the LT has been shown doing. The fact that neither you or Mr. Master can point to anything definitive and keep repeating the same tired arguments doesn't help your cause.

Originally posted by zopzop
On panel we have Ziran's M-body (we know for sure they were all M-bodies) tanking a blast that sent other supposedly higher level abstracts and cosmics flying.

Eternity was already down and was merely pushed back when he was already down. Lord Chaos and Master Order didn't move much either. We do you see them flying? They had down as much as Ziran did. Point is LT sat there and didn't not raise any sort of defense while Ziran tried to block said attack.

So how is he tanking anything when he's blocking that attack and it was stopped before Warlock could continue the assault? Tank my ass.

On panel the LT couldn't force the Gauntlet from Adam's hand and couldn't shut down the Gauntlet without Adam consenting to his judgment (hence the guilt trip).

He didn't have too. He had him in awe of his power and then ordered him to submit and he did. Why give up if he could've won that? He's got omniscience and should know the outcome. Reality can be fix. What guilt is there when he's got mastery over time and reality, fixing everything as if the battle was never fought? Oh that's right, the fact that he knew he couldn't win.

Adam wasn't out for blood. Neither of his blasts were meant to kill Eternity or the other members of the court.

He was out to stop the trial. Why would he attack the plaintiff if he wanted the trial to continue. Answer that. Why would he attack the court including it's judge if he didn't want to stop the trial? Is he the Joker and doing that for giggles? He wanted to stop the trial! The end.

And supposedly from the source Mr. Master quoted from, they wouldn't have destroyed 616 if they fought, just the dimension of manifestations.

If that's the case and reality wouldn't have been destroyed, then Warlock gave up for no other reason then because he knew he couldn't win. Warlock wouldn't give a shit about a dimension that manifest the bodies of the cosmics. The collateral damage would not have been high; it's the dimension of manifestation, not the 616.

Architects do not build ANYTHING! Look up the definition of the word please. Also they were retconned down to mere guardians by Official Marvel info. Don't complain to me. It seems like Marvel is trying to power them down.

No they're not. The two play out the endless conflict of existence. This conflict refers to DC vs Marvel where they two battle out and ended existence and brought it back. Go read a book for once. You too funny.

And again, this assumes he had their actuality in his hands and not an image.[/b]

Even if it's their image, he clenched his hand of these images and prevented the actual beings for assuming their predestined roles on the wheel of destiny spun by his (LT) mighty hand. How many beings can you find that can prevent the actions of multiversal beings like the brothers just by toying with a vision of them?

I brought up the Odin dying incident because the LT had an image of Odin's soul in his hand. Doesn't mean he held it's actuality or anything. It was just an image.

That's because it states in the comics that it's just the echo of his death. Where does it state of anywhere that LT was holding just an image? You got proof?

It freaking says on panel, "the cosmic avatar within". I don't know how to make this clearer to you.[/b]

lol. A few reference, mostly from Excalibur books, and all of a sudden you want to apply it to the hosts Jean Grey and Rook Shir? Where does it say in the actual books regarding Jean, the Ultra Force, or Rook Shir that it was just an avatar they encountered? Even your precious handbooks don't say they're just avatars.

Dormammu and Giraud did nothing to each other in that fight. He knocked Giraud backward, Giraud burned his hand. That's about it. "Channeling" your power through a frail old man doesn't amount to much.

So who was blasted back and trapped by tentacles along with the other GOTG? Giraud! He couldn't stop Dormammu so deal with it.

Also Kruegarr the then Sorcerer Supreme also took down Korvac, something the LT has yet to do. Yet you don't hold this against the LT.

I didn't know Giraud and Kruegarr are the same being. And also, those are two different Korvac genius.

The fact remains that LT didn't do anything to Protege as shown on panel and restated in his Handbook entry. He didn't stop his rampage or restrain him. That was Scathan. He couldn't pass judgment and imprison him without stealing power from the Eye of Agamotto. Like I said, to cover his humiliation, he did it secretly and was still caught out by a novice magician Talon.

So Giraud would've done better? That's your argument then. lol

Eternity was asked who he needed to help cure him. The LT and the Celestials names were brought up as examples. He specifically said NO, his only hope was the PF.

Lol. So you're saying LT could not have cured Eternity of Bubonicus right? lol. So if I put up a new thread between LT and Bubonicus fighting for Eternity's life, you'd be there to defend Bubonicus right? I don't want to put up a thread and have you chicken out.

And thank you for the Dormmamu/Eternity incident. So that attack against Eternity was against his actuality and not mere an M-body.

It was against an M-body. You still don't understand the difference between an M-body and Eternity's actuality huh? There's nothing to be grateful for when all you did was further expose your ignorance with that statement.

Odin barely noticed the LT.

lol.

But Odin has on panel feats that dwarf anything the LT has been shown doing. The fact that neither you or Mr. Master can point to anything definitive and keep repeating the same tired arguments doesn't help your cause.

And Phoenix isn't Odin. I mean come on Xorn? WTF is a Xorn? Oh, that dirty mutie than shattered the Phoenix Force into a billion pieces. And then there's Rook Shir who even with the Phoenix Force lost to the Imperial Guard and was beheaded by Gladiator, a guy that's merely on par with Thor. In fact, Thor has beaten Gladiator before. The same Thor that needed to go and beg Eternity and Infinity for help even when he had Odin's power. The same Eternity that was helpless against all IG user and had to beg the Living Tribunal to step in. The same Tribunal who merely used in M-body because he wanted to make an appearance without actually being there. The same M-body that told off the IG user and force him to give up his power to which the IG did seeing as with his omniscience he knew he couldn't beat the M-body and so gave it. Because the actual fight would've only destroyed the dimension of manifestation and not the 616 so he's not afraid of that, he just didn't want to get embarrassed by the LT M-body. lol

Giraud bfr Korvac and Kruegarr attacked before the genetic imprint power settled.

I don't know the debate around LT and IG. In my eyes it was clear LT dwarfed its power. I have no doubt LT would win if the battle would happen.
But why to battle when LT literally knew he doesn't need to, because he literallyy knew Adam would give up willingly?

Sup X

🙂

Originally posted by Xplosive
I don't know the debate around LT and IG. In my eyes it was clear LT dwarfed its power. I have no doubt LT would win if the battle would happen.
But why to battle when LT literally knew he doesn't need to, because he literallyy knew Adam would give up willingly?

Apparently a Celestial covering his face and bracing the attack and was saved when LT stopped the attack before that Celestial was blasted off his feet is somehow proof that attack is weak and so it's not a good feat for the Tribunal. This is disregarding Lord Chaos, Master Order not moving much either. Then you have Eternity who got push back some what but he's already in the floors after the first attack. While everyone else was feeling the effect or blocking it, the Tribunal just sits there like he's enjoying the tan and then shuts off the attack.

Anyways, Warlock was talked down to the whole time and when push came to shove he backed down from the Tribunal. Everybody knows including the fanboys.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]Eternity was already down and was merely pushed back when he was already down. Lord Chaos and Master Order didn't move much either. We do you see them flying? They had down as much as Ziran did. Point is LT sat there and didn't not raise any sort of defense while Ziran tried to block said attack.

So how is he tanking anything when he's blocking that attack and it was stopped before Warlock could continue the assault? Tank my ass.

He did indeed tank that blast. The fact remains that beings supposedly greater in power than him went flying. Look at the picture again. Galactus was thrown upside down AND back.

How could Ziran's M-body withstand the attack but not the other higher level abstracts?

That's why that entire argument of "LT snapped his fingers and restored order hence he's > IG argument" is full of holes.

He didn't have too. He had him in awe of his power and then ordered him to submit and he did. Why give up if he could've won that? He's got omniscience and should know the outcome. Reality can be fix. What guilt is there when he's got mastery over time and reality, fixing everything as if the battle was never fought? Oh that's right, the fact that he knew he couldn't win.

He was out to stop the trial. Why would he attack the plaintiff if he wanted the trial to continue. Answer that. Why would he attack the court including it's judge if he didn't want to stop the trial? Is he the Joker and doing that for giggles? He wanted to stop the trial! The end.

If that's the case and reality wouldn't have been destroyed, then Warlock gave up for no other reason then because he knew he couldn't win. Warlock wouldn't give a shit about a dimension that manifest the bodies of the cosmics. The collateral damage would not have been high; it's the dimension of manifestation, not the 616.

He gave it up because Warlock is not Thanos. He isn't a conqueror or nihilist and when he realized that a fight would wreck the Dimension of Manifestations (it's inhabited by living fractals), he stepped down. The LT did a fine job of guilting him out of the Gauntlet.

It was shown on panel that he couldn't just shut down the Gems without the IG user's consent, otherwise there would be NO confrontation.

No they're not. The two play out the endless conflict of existence. This conflict refers to DC vs Marvel where they two battle out and ended existence and brought it back. Go read a book for once. You too funny.

Even if it's their image, he clenched his hand of these images and prevented the actual beings for assuming their predestined roles on the wheel of destiny spun by his (LT) mighty hand. How many beings can you find that can prevent the actions of multiversal beings like the brothers just by toying with a vision of them?

That's because it states in the comics that it's just the echo of his death. Where does it state of anywhere that LT was holding just an image? You got proof?

You have zero proof that was their actuality do you? Anymore than an image of Odin appearing in the LT's hand was actually Odin. And those beings went from Creators, to architects, to guardians. Even assuming it stopped at architect (since you dislike using handbooks unless it suits you), what's the big deal? Architects DO NOT CREATE ANYTHING.

lol. A few reference, mostly from Excalibur books, and all of a sudden you want to apply it to the hosts Jean Grey and Rook Shir? Where does it say in the actual books regarding Jean, the Ultra Force, or Rook Shir that it was just an avatar they encountered? Even your precious handbooks don't say they're just avatars.

So who was blasted back and trapped by tentacles along with the other GOTG? Giraud! He couldn't stop Dormammu so deal with it.

And the LT fled from Korvac and was blasted apart by Reed Richards. At least with the PF we have the following on panel high end feats :

Destruction of two alternate universes
Destruction of multiple galaxies and Annihilus (alternate universe)
Destruction of and devouring a star (616)
Destruction of a solar system (Necrom 616)
Projecting an object onto every plane of existence simultaneously and fusing all alternate realities into 616 (Necrom 616)
Holding a universe and rearranging it in the palm of it's hands (616)
Saving the universe from a super massive black hole (616)
Saving the universe by curing Eternity (alternate future)

I didn't know Giraud and Kruegarr are the same being. And also, those are two different Korvac genius.

So Giraud would've done better? That's your argument then. lol

Kruegarr defeated Korvac by imprisoning him in a dimension where his powers wouldn't work. Krueggar went on to defeat Dual Dormammu. Kruegarr did what the LT or the PF (according to you) couldn't do. So why rag only on the PF for being unable to defeat Dual Dormammu when Kruegarr did, but excuse the LT for fleeing from Korvac when Kruegarr was able to put him down.

I realize they are different Korvacs, but the Korvac Kreuggar put down had all the original "Godlike" Korvac's power from 616.

Lol. So you're saying LT could not have cured Eternity of Bubonicus right? lol. So if I put up a new thread between LT and Bubonicus fighting for Eternity's life, you'd be there to defend Bubonicus right? I don't want to put up a thread and have you chicken out.

It was against an M-body. You still don't understand the difference between an M-body and Eternity's actuality huh? There's nothing to be grateful for when all you did was further expose your ignorance with that statement.

The fact that when Mainframe asked who should he call to aid him, Eternity specifically stated his only hope was the PF. The Celestials and the LT's name was brought up and he still said no. Obviously that was much more than a mere M-body of Eternity. When Giraud cured it, all creation shook. When Adam blasted an M-body of Eternity at the Trial, nothing happened to creation. See the difference?

lol.

I meant to say "The LT barely noticed Odin?".

And Phoenix isn't Odin. I mean come on Xorn? WTF is a Xorn? Oh, that dirty mutie than shattered the Phoenix Force into a billion pieces. And then there's Rook Shir who even with the Phoenix Force lost to the Imperial Guard and was beheaded by Gladiator, a guy that's merely on par with Thor. In fact, Thor has beaten Gladiator before. The same Thor that needed to go and beg Eternity and Infinity for help even when he had Odin's power. The same Eternity that was helpless against all IG user and had to beg the Living Tribunal to step in. The same Tribunal who merely used in M-body because he wanted to make an appearance without actually being there. The same M-body that told off the IG user and force him to give up his power to which the IG did seeing as with his omniscience he knew he couldn't beat the M-body and so gave it. Because the actual fight would've only destroyed the dimension of manifestation and not the 616 so he's not afraid of that, he just didn't want to get embarrassed by the LT M-body. lol

That's right, PF isn't Odin. Although they both have higher on panel feats than anything the LT has ever done. I love how you keep ignoring this and bring up meaningless arguments in an attempt to divert attention that you haven't provided ANYTHING on panel for the LT. That's the reason I'm even continuing this discussion, because it's pure comedy gold.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I don't know the debate around LT and IG. In my eyes it was clear LT dwarfed its power. I have no doubt LT would win if the battle would happen.
But why to battle when LT literally knew he doesn't need to, because he literallyy knew Adam would give up willingly?

Why even allow the battle if you can just shut down the gems and avoid the confrontation and chaos period? Because he couldn't. Even at the Trial the LT was unsure if he could actually force the IG from his hands. He was "determining if he had the power to wrest it from Warlock".

The only thing we saw on panel was a few M-bodies being thrown around (not Ziran or the LT's). Then the LT restores order to the court by restoring the M-bodies to their original positions. Then the LT ruling against Warlock. Then the LT guilting Warlock into letting go of the Gauntlet.

Nothing else was shown on panel.

Dark Phoenix.

Originally posted by zopzop
Why even allow the battle if you can just shut down the gems and avoid the confrontation and chaos period? Because he couldn't. Even at the Trial the LT was unsure if he could actually force the IG from his hands. He was "determining if he had the power to wrest it from Warlock".

The only thing we saw on panel was a few M-bodies being thrown around (not Ziran or the LT's). Then the LT restores order to the court by restoring the M-bodies to their original positions. Then the LT ruling against Warlock. Then the LT guilting Warlock into letting go of the Gauntlet.

Nothing else was shown on panel.

PREACH! 💃

That quote says all we need to know. LT was determining whether he had the power to take the gauntlet by force as stated on panel. That coupled with the fact that he then had to guilt trip Adam into giving up says it all. LT is NOT conclusively greater than the IG through on panel feat.

Yes he is held in higher regard, but power-wise he has done nothing to prove his higher status and his confrontation with the IG did him no favours.

Zopzop youre killin em. 👆 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
PREACH! 💃

That quote says all we need to know. LT was determining whether he had the power to take the gauntlet by force as stated on panel. That coupled with the fact that he then had to guilt trip Adam into giving up says it all. LT is NOT conclusively greater than the IG through on panel feat.

Yes he is held in higher regard, but power-wise he has done nothing to prove his higher status and his confrontation with the IG did him no favours.

Zopzop youre killin em. 👆 😉

Originally posted by Nihilist
LT reversed its effect with a twitch of his fingers, the IG couldnt reverse anything LT does, and LT didnt want to battle Adam with the IG because of damage it would do.

Read the thread, that didnt happen.

The blast happened, LT restored the Mbodies to their places.

Furthermore the blast wasnt a killing blast. Some mbodies were thrown back, Ziran stayed on his feet and withstood it at ground zero. If it was a killing blast we would have seen the mbodies atomized and Ziran wouldnt have done so well against it when previously in battle against Thanos his actuality was owned.

Therefore even if LT did reverse the effects for arguments sake, as it wasnt a killing blast that says nothing for LTs comparative abilities to the IG.

Ziran is weaker than a lot of the abstracts who got repelled, so all that shows is that he invested more of his totality into his mbody than they did with theirs. So LT withstanding the blast also doesnt say much.

Then theres the actual statement where its stated that LT was determining whether he had the power to take on the IG by force. He didnt know, therefore no poster can conclusively say otherwise because it didnt happen and he has no feats to show that he could.

LT went on to guilt trip adam out of fighting back, that coupled with his statement about not knowing if he was powerful enough says it all.

If LT was powerful enough to snap his fingers and disable the gauntlet he would have. He never. He had to decide if he had the power, then talk adam out of a confrontation. He then went on to disable an unmanned IG which means nothing. 😉

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Read the thread, that didnt happen.

The blast happened, LT restored the Mbodies to their places.

Furthermore the blast wasnt a killing blast. Some mbodies were thrown back, Ziran stayed on his feet and withstood it at ground zero. If it was a killing blast we would have seen the mbodies atomized and Ziran wouldnt have done so well against it when previously in battle against Thanos his actuality was owned.

Therefore even if LT did reverse the effects for arguments sake, as it wasnt a killing blast that says nothing for LTs comparative abilities to the IG.

Ziran is weaker than a lot of the abstracts who got repelled, so all that shows is that he invested more of his totality into his mbody than they did with theirs. So LT withstanding the blast also doesnt say much.

Then theres the actual statement where its stated that LT was determining whether he had the power to take on the IG by force. He didnt know, therefore no poster can conclusively say otherwise because it didnt happen and he has no feats to show that he could.

LT went on to guilt trip adam out of fighting back, that coupled with his statement about not knowing if he was powerful enough says it all.

If LT was powerful enough to snap his fingers and disable the gauntlet he would have. He never. He had to decide if he had the power, then talk adam out of a confrontation. He then went on to disable an unmanned IG which means nothing. 😉

Anyone with sense could see that LT didnt needlessly want to get into a battle that could have caused great damage when there was much simpler and easier ways to resolve it.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Like i said he reversed what the IG did with ease which Adam was shocked about how easily LT did it, if the IG power was much greater than LT's Adam would have dispatched him along with the rest.

Anyone with sense could see that LT didnt needlessly want to get into a battle that could have caused great damage when there was much simpler and easier ways to resolve it.

Do you not comprehend what i just stated in the very post you quoted? It was quite simple enough.

I will state this again, take the time to read it and process it BEFORE you reply.

Mbodys can have varying amounts of power invested in them by the occupying entities.

Ziran, who is less powerful than the abstracts, withstood a blast at ground zero that repelled like ragdolls, those who are far more powerful than he is.

What that means is that he invested more of his totality into his mbody than the other entities did in theirs.

With that in mind, Ziran withstanding the blast at ground zero when hes less powerful than the abstracts demeans the fact that LT withstood it. It shows it wasnt a killing blast.

Therefore using the fact that LT withstood it so easily to prove your idea that he is more powerful than the IG is nonsensical.

Reversing the affect of a non lethal blast does not make LT greater than the IG.

When it came to deciding whether he was great enough to withstand the IG, LT didnt know, he was unsure, that further proves that LTs snap of the fingers reversal was NOT against a full powered attack from Adam. If it was then LT would not have had to question whether he was powerful enough to stop the IG.

If it was a full powered attack, then by your logic Ziran is more powerful than the abstracts which we know he isnt. 😬

You say that LT didnt want to battle because there was a much simpler and easier way to do things. Surely the most simplest way would be to snap his fingers and disable the IG's power? 😖hifty:

You've failed. 👇