Dark Phoenix vs Scarlet Witch

Originally posted by zopzop
He did indeed tank that blast. The fact remains that beings supposedly greater in power than him went flying. Look at the picture again. Galactus was thrown upside down AND back.

How do you justify tanking a blast when he's in a defensive position? And are you claiming he would've lasted if Warlock assault was allowed to continue? He already got stomped by Thanos and Nebula.

Galactus, Watcher, Hate, Love, and Stranger are NOT more powerful than the known Celestial. Galactus may be a par with a Celestial but on average Galactus is below most.

Lord Chaos, Master Order, and Eternity would've been fight. Eternity took a point blank shot was wasn't blasted own, only dropped to his feat. That second shot pushed him back slightly so wasn't taking anything the higher abstracts couldn't. But you know full well Ziran and the others were affected saved LT who just SAT there. Are you blind?

How could Ziran's M-body withstand the attack but not the other higher level abstracts?

That's why that entire argument of "LT snapped his fingers and restored order hence he's > IG argument" is full of holes.

See above. LT just sat there and snapped his finger. Go find me a person that snaps his finger while just sitting there and shocking an IG user? Are you dense? You still have no one that could match the feat. Stop kidding yourself, you act as if the Phoenix Force would've fared any better than the other abstracts.

He gave it up because Warlock is not Thanos. He isn't a conqueror or nihilist and when he realized that a fight would wreck the Dimension of Manifestations (it's inhabited by living fractals), he stepped down. The LT did a fine job of guilting him out of the Gauntlet.

Lol. He could've restored everything just fine. You act as if living fractals mean anything, they're just energy constructs.

It was shown on panel that he couldn't just shut down the Gems without the IG user's consent, otherwise there would be NO confrontation.

Because the Phoenix Force would've fared better right? It would've ignored a point blank attack by the IG right? And you can justify with that Xorn, Enitity ship, Galactus, or Rook Shir showing huh? Or that Goblin Force showing? And don't tell me this nonsense about how the IG's power came from the Big Bang and therefore the PF has power over it when the PF has never displayed power like the IG.

You have zero proof that was their actuality do you? Anymore than an image of Odin appearing in the LT's hand was actually Odin.

lol. It says Odin's death can be felt throughout the universe by for LT it was just a whisper and you can see how everything is viewing images of Odin. How you can't understand what its saying to you when it's actually spelling out to you is beyond me.

And the LT fled from Korvac and was blasted apart by Reed Richards. At least with the PF we have the following on panel high end feats :

Destruction of two alternate universes - What Ifs right? Lol. Doesn't count on any forum board. Not relevant to any canon character save the Tribunal who actually exist in all universes.

Destruction of multiple galaxies and Annihilus (alternate universe) - Again another What If.

Destruction of and devouring a star (616) - LMAO. That's going to be real affective in a fight against the Tribunal.

Destruction of a solar system (Necrom 616) - A depleted Galactus wreck three. Your point?

Projecting an object onto every plane of existence simultaneously and fusing all alternate realities into 616 (Necrom 616) - Yeah, when everything was in alignment was it able to do that. The Tribunal exist and rules over all Multiverse(s) simaltenously.

Holding a universe and rearranging it in the palm of it's hands (616) - In the white hot room after Jean, not outside of it. Not going to help it in a fight considering she was there because Xorn had killed her. And later, the Shi'Ar with there basic tech pulled the Force out of the WHR and the Force has to run and hide once again from the big bad Shi'Ar.

Saving the universe from a super massive black hole (616) - lol. The guardian of the Crystal and has knowledge of the Crystal is able to access and shut it off? Next off you're going to tell me it's impressive that Strange can move about his Sanctum Sanctorum without getting lost? GTFO with that. How did this help it against alien weaponry or Xorn? It was running and hiding from the Shi'Ar and the Entity Ship.

Saving the universe by curing Eternity (alternate future) - Great feat. But not good enough to beat Dormammu. We can conclude that Dormammu > Bubonicus. Protege > Dormammu seeing as it took 4 high abstracts to deal with Protege.

Now you're excuse is that the PF has 30 years of history so it's not going to be all feated into a handbook. If that's what you believe, then find me a hand book where a character's What If feat is counted as part of there canon history. Not the Tribunal for obvious reasons. I'm sure there's recent characters that have plenty of spaces that need to be filled, who have had appearances in What Ifs.

Kruegarr defeated Korvac by imprisoning him in a dimension where his powers wouldn't work. Krueggar went on to defeat Dual Dormammu. Kruegarr did what the LT or the PF (according to you) couldn't do. So why rag only on the PF for being unable to defeat Dual Dormammu when Kruegarr did, but excuse the LT for fleeing from Korvac when Kruegarr was able to put him down.

So now bfr is a defeat right? Okay then, LT defeated Slorith a devourer of dimensions. He didn't defeat Korvac, only locked him up. It's one of LT's low showings as I've said it before. I never denied that.

I realize they are different Korvacs, but the Korvac Kreuggar put down had all the original "Godlike" Korvac's power from 616.

The point is they are not the same being. Do you actually want to argue that Kreuggar would beat LT in a fight? If all Kreugarr did was BFR Korvac to be counted as a win, LT would have no problems doing the same thing against this Korvac seeing as he BFR Slorith, a dimension eater, who required the attention of all the Vishanti - beings of who Kreuggar borrows most of his powers from. The Vishanti requested the Tribunal to show up and handle the matter.

The fact that when Mainframe asked who should he call to aid him, Eternity specifically stated his only hope was the PF. The Celestials and the LT's name was brought up and he still said no. Obviously that was much more than a mere M-body of Eternity. When Giraud cured it, all creation shook. When Adam blasted an M-body of Eternity at the Trial, nothing happened to creation. See the difference?

You're assuming LT couldn't have beaten Bubinocus and only PF could. When it comes down to it, it's just what he says and not actually LT failing to beat Bubonicus. The fact of the matter is Giraud couldn't beat Dormammu when Kreuggar, a SS did.

That's right, PF isn't Odin. Although they both have higher on panel feats than anything the LT has ever done. I love how you keep ignoring this and bring up meaningless arguments in an attempt to divert attention that you haven't provided ANYTHING on panel for the LT. That's the reason I'm even continuing this discussion, because it's pure comedy gold.

It is comedy gold when you think a being such as the PF who get stomped by alien weaponry and a mutie named Xorn is even a match for the Tribunal. And all you have is What Ifs that has nothing to do with the canon PF as proof. Everything I've pointed to is canon for the PF; it's power is easily manipulated by others. While all you've got is just denials of any feat I've brought up for the Tribunal. If you would like, then bring up put up a thread involving the Tribunal and the Phoenix Force. You and I aren't going to argue on this. The board members have enough knowledge of both characters to decide and if they don't I'm sure you can enlighten them on how powerful the PF compared to LT. Lol.

Originally posted by Nihilist
Like i said he reversed what the IG did with ease which Adam was shocked about how easily LT did it, if the IG power was much greater than LT's Adam would have dispatched him along with the rest.

Anyone with sense could see that LT didnt needlessly want to get into a battle that could have caused great damage when there was much simpler and easier ways to resolve it.

He's a hardcore fanboy on the level of Quanchi. And you know how much sense Quan has.

Dude, wtf? Dark Phoenix loses, GTFO ALREADY.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]How do you justify tanking a blast when he's in a defensive position? And are you claiming he would've lasted if Warlock assault was allowed to continue? He already got stomped by Thanos and Nebula.

You don't know if he'd fall anymore than I'd know if he would have stood his ground like he was already doing. ON PANEL, we have him withstanding the blast right?

Galactus, Watcher, Hate, Love, and Stranger are NOT more powerful than the known Celestial. Galactus may be a par with a Celestial but on average Galactus is below most.

Woot so Ziran is more powerful than the abstractions Love/Hate? Sweet.

Lord Chaos, Master Order, and Eternity would've been fight. Eternity took a point blank shot was wasn't blasted own, only dropped to his feat. That second shot pushed him back slightly so wasn't taking anything the higher abstracts couldn't. But you know full well Ziran and the others were affected saved LT who just SAT there. Are you blind?

The second shot pushed him back slightly? Where is this on panel? The LT just sat there, and Ziran's M-BODY braced and held his ground. Still not much of a feat for the LT.

See above. LT just sat there and snapped his finger. Go find me a person that snaps his finger while just sitting there and shocking an IG user? Are you dense? You still have no one that could match the feat. Stop kidding yourself, you act as if the Phoenix Force would've fared any better than the other abstracts.

The other abstracts went flying, unlike Ziran. Snapping his fingers to restore order to a bunch of M-bodies from a non lethal IG blast isn't impressive at all. But this is what happens when your boy has ZERO on panel feats. You cling to the little things and blow them out of proportion.

Lol. He could've restored everything just fine. You act as if living fractals mean anything, they're just energy constructs.

I don't care what they are. It was their dimension that was being used to host the trial. Warlock, actually having a conscious, relented to the voice of reason and gave up the IG.

Because the Phoenix Force would've fared better right? It would've ignored a point blank attack by the IG right? And you can justify with that Xorn, Enitity ship, Galactus, or Rook Shir showing huh? Or that Goblin Force showing? And don't tell me this nonsense about how the IG's power came from the Big Bang and therefore the PF has power over it when the PF has never displayed power like the IG.

Don't give you what nonsense? You were the one that wanted ON PANEL confirmation about the Brothers being retconned into Guardians (not just handbook info). But when presented with ON PANEL evidence that the PF = the Big Bang you cry up a storm. Your selective use of handbook/on panel evidence to bolster your case is annoying.

lol. It says Odin's death can be felt throughout the universe by for LT it was just a whisper and you can see how everything is viewing images of Odin. How you can't understand what its saying to you when it's actually spelling out to you is beyond me.

Bro, you're either misreading what I'm saying or you have reading problems. The reason I brought up the "Odin image in the LT's hand" is because you brought up the "Brothers in the LT hand, hence LT is uber powerful" garbage. The whole point I was trying to make is, just because he had their image in his hand, doesn't mean he had their actuality (like the image of Odin).

Destruction of two alternate universes - What Ifs right? Lol. Doesn't count on any forum board. Not relevant to any canon character save the Tribunal who actually exist in all universes.

Destruction of multiple galaxies and Annihilus (alternate universe) - Again another What If.

Destruction of and devouring a star (616) - LMAO. That's going to be real affective in a fight against the Tribunal.

Destruction of a solar system (Necrom 616) - A depleted Galactus wreck three. Your point?

Projecting an object onto every plane of existence simultaneously and fusing all alternate realities into 616 (Necrom 616) - Yeah, when everything was in alignment was it able to do that. The Tribunal exist and rules over all Multiverse(s) simaltenously.

Holding a universe and rearranging it in the palm of it's hands (616) - In the white hot room after Jean, not outside of it. Not going to help it in a fight considering she was there because Xorn had killed her. And later, the Shi'Ar with there basic tech pulled the Force out of the WHR and the Force has to run and hide once again from the big bad Shi'Ar.

Saving the universe from a super massive black hole (616) - lol. The guardian of the Crystal and has knowledge of the Crystal is able to access and shut it off? Next off you're going to tell me it's impressive that Strange can move about his Sanctum Sanctorum without getting lost? GTFO with that. How did this help it against alien weaponry or Xorn? It was running and hiding from the Shi'Ar and the Entity Ship.

Saving the universe by curing Eternity (alternate future) - Great feat. But not good enough to beat Dormammu. We can conclude that Dormammu > Bubonicus. Protege > Dormammu seeing as it took 4 high abstracts to deal with Protege.

Now you're excuse is that the PF has 30 years of history so it's not going to be all feated into a handbook. If that's what you believe, then find me a hand book where a character's What If feat is counted as part of there canon history. Not the Tribunal for obvious reasons. I'm sure there's recent characters that have plenty of spaces that need to be filled, who have had appearances in What Ifs.

The point, my friend, is that the PF has on panel displays of power that dwarf anything the LT has. The What If universes, are legit alternate universes. In fact, the PF is the only thing that has ever destroyed an entire universe on panel under it's own power in ANY universe (baring things like the UN and the HotI).

Necrom's destruction of a solar system, using the FRACTION of the PF he stole, was more than anything the LT has been shown doing ON PANEL. Jean's destruction and consumption of a star equals anything the LT has done ON PANEL.

So now bfr is a defeat right? Okay then, LT defeated Slorith a devourer of dimensions. He didn't defeat Korvac, only locked him up. It's one of LT's low showings as I've said it before. I never denied that.

Krueggar did more than the LT did, PERIOD. And why do you excuse the LT's low showings (Korvac, M-body killed by Reed) but play up the PF's?

PS, I've noticed a pattern, ALL the LT's "win's" have been BFR. Either under his own power or by stealing power from other sources to bolster his own.

The point is they are not the same being. Do you actually want to argue that Kreuggar would beat LT in a fight? If all Kreugarr did was BFR Korvac to be counted as a win, LT would have no problems doing the same thing against this Korvac seeing as he BFR Slorith, a dimension eater, who required the attention of all the Vishanti - beings of who Kreuggar borrows most of his powers from. The Vishanti requested the Tribunal to show up and handle the matter.

Lol. Desperate much? On panel, we have the LT fleeing before Korvac! Not BFRing him, FLEEING HIM. On panel we have Kreuggar owning Korvac. You keep ignoring things like Jean being able to survive plunging into a star, making it go nova and consuming it. But play up Xorn giving her a planetary stroke. Stars > planets. MUCH MUCH greater. Using your logic above, I can say the Xorn story is BS right?

You're assuming LT couldn't have beaten Bubinocus and only PF could. When it comes down to it, it's just what he says and not actually LT failing to beat Bubonicus. The fact of the matter is Giraud couldn't beat Dormammu when Kreuggar, a SS did.

The fact remains, in the Guardians of the Galaxy universe it was Giraud that saved the universe and not the LT. When asked who could possibly save him, he specifically said the PF.

In the Guardians of the Galaxy universe, the LT faced down and lost to the Protege. He had to steal power from the Eye of Agamotto in order to even pass judgment and imprison the Protege. And this is only because Scathan beat him down and restrained him! To add even more embarrassment to that fiasco, he thought he was doing it on the downlow, that no one was noticing his pilfering of power in order to pass judgment. But Talon, a complete NOVICE, took notice and called him out on it!

So PF failed against Dual Dormammu but succeeded in saving Eternity (and hence the universe) from Bubonicus.

The LT FAILED to do anything against the Protege and had to be bailed out by Scathan.

Seems like the PF did more than the LT to me.

It is comedy gold when you think a being such as the PF who get stomped by alien weaponry and a mutie named Xorn is even a match for the Tribunal.

There's a whole Respect the Living Tribunal thread on this very forum. Feel free to look up the scans there and post what you find impressive. Sad fact is Mr. Master listed all his most "impressive" on panel showings and they are a joke.

This is why you have to keep bringing up the PF's low showings, ignore the LT's low showings, and play down the fact that he got nothing on panel to back up all the hype surrounding him. Else you would have presented it and ended this a long time ago.

PS while you're at it, check out the PF respect thread and compare feats. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Or not.

Originally posted by Cubey
Dude, wtf? Dark Phoenix loses, GTFO ALREADY.

We're having a discussion. If you don't like don't like it you GTFO and don't bother with the thread. No one is forcing you to be here.

There's not much to discuss. DP was probably the weakest version of Pheonix yet (who at best manipulated one universe), while Wanda can warp the omniverse. Again, what is there to discuss?

DP for a small majority.

Originally posted by zopzop
So PF failed against Dual Dormammu but succeeded in saving Eternity (and hence the universe) from Bubonicus.

The LT FAILED to do anything against the Protege and had to be bailed out by Scathan.

Seems like the PF did more than the LT to me.

Please, just don't compare Dormammu to Protege.
That sounds ridiculous. That's a whole different league, so ridiculously different, it's ridiculous even comparing them.
Dormammu is Dormammu, Protege is one of the most powerful entities ever in comics.
Even or ever since Protege there hasn't appeared even as close as powerful being as Protege to threaten all realities.

Abotu Jean. WPOTC did what she did to 616 universe (but only in the WHR), but that was actually the same PF that was empowering her that was blew up by Xorn and a Ship, right?

Originally posted by Xplosive
Please, just don't compare Dormammu to Protege.
That sounds ridiculous. That's a whole different league, so ridiculously different, it's ridiculous even comparing them.
Dormammu is Dormammu, Protege is one of the most powerful entities ever in comics.
Even or ever since Protege there hasn't appeared even as close as powerful being as Protege to threaten all realities.

You don't get it do you? I'm not saying that Dual Dormammu (it was the combined power of the Dormammu from 616 + the one from the GotG universe) is more powerful than the Protege or even in the same league.

I'm merely saying that the LT did nothing against him. Whereas when Eternity was dying (stated on panel) and was asked who could be summoned to help him, the LT or the Celestials, Eternity said only the PF would do (stated on panel).

So even if Giraud failed against Dual Dormammu, he at least saved the universe. That's more than the LT did in the GotG timeline.

Originally posted by zopzop
You don't know if he'd fall anymore than I'd know if he would have stood his ground like he was already doing. ON PANEL, we have him withstanding the blast right?

On panel he braced for the attack twice. Once after Warlock merely turned on the Gauntlet's power and LT was standing next to him unaffected without trying to shield like Ziran. We do know Warlock was trying to stop the court and that's why he attacked. He even asked that they dared to judge him then he attacked the court. How hard is that for you to understand that he that attack not been stopped by the Tribunal, Ziran would been blasted away like was against Thanos and Nebula.

All you got is this nonsense argument that somehow it's not impress for the Tribunal when all others could NOTHING to stop an IG users attack.

Woot so Ziran is more powerful than the abstractions Love/Hate? Sweet.

duh.

The second shot pushed him back slightly? Where is this on panel? The LT just sat there, and Ziran's M-BODY braced and held his ground. Still not much of a feat for the LT.

It's in the scan.

Ziran also got killed against Thanos with the HOTU. Then Thanos admitted that LT was the highest in the cosmic totem. WTF is there to debate when Thanos has had possession of the IG and the HOTU and has actually fought Ziran twice, owning him twice. Then he admits LT is the highest power of the cosmics.

The other abstracts went flying, unlike Ziran. Snapping his fingers to restore order to a bunch of M-bodies from a non lethal IG blast isn't impressive at all. But this is what happens when your boy has ZERO on panel feats. You cling to the little things and blow them out of proportion.

See. Above. He did more than anybody during the series by just snapping his finger. By this point why bother with you when it's obvious you try to deny everything and know shit about M-bodies. Even the fact that LT's M-body was making a fool out of an IG. You might not be impressive, but then again you chose not to be.

I don't care what they are. It was their dimension that was being used to host the trial. Warlock, actually having a conscious, relented to the voice of reason and gave up the IG.

Warlock gave up despite his threats. An M-body was willing to destroy a dimension when Warlock threaten to fight. There's nothing to debate here because Warlock do nothing to LT and it was LT that passed judgement and willing to fight. There other abstracts did absolute jack shit.

Don't give you what nonsense? You were the one that wanted ON PANEL confirmation about the Brothers being retconned into Guardians (not just handbook info). But when presented with ON PANEL evidence that the PF = the Big Bang you cry up a storm. Your selective use of handbook/on panel evidence to bolster your case is annoying.

Please, you wanted to use handbooks and titles so I applied just that. Now you're whining to me? Please. The one who's using handbooks as if it's relevant and What Ifs is if it mattered was YOU. Go back to every thread before and it's obvious. Down whine when I used it against you.

Bro, you're either misreading what I'm saying or you have reading problems. The reason I brought up the "Odin image in the LT's hand" is because you brought up the "Brothers in the LT hand, hence LT is uber powerful" garbage. The whole point I was trying to make is, just because he had their image in his hand, doesn't mean he had their actuality (like the image of Odin).

You're claiming it's just an image of the Brothers when there's no indication anywhere that it is. Then you brought up Odin's death to which there was panels and panels stating that his death was felt by all including the Tribunal. One has nothing to do with the other except you trying to suggest it was just an image of the brothers when it states that nowhere in the book.

The point, my friend, is that the PF has on panel displays of power that dwarf anything the LT has.

It has one feat of it holding the universe to which it could be argued that it's just an image since you like doing that so much. That the actual universe was fixed because she changed Scott's feeling about Emma which prevented Here Comes Tomorrow and fixing the universe. The atom by atom part can easily be argued to the atoms which she used to form the image in her hands. It says right there that Cyclops' succumbs to loneliness and Henry (Beast), who was the cause of HCT, to which Quinn says you have to water it with you heart's blood. And you see an image of the PF there where Jean says live Scott live. The last page is at Jean's grave where Scott changes his mind and decides to move on with Emma and continue the fight for mutant right - preventing HCT and fixing the universe. Changing Scott's heart is something Mistress Love or even the Enchantress can do.

As for everything else, nothing much but a bunch of What Ifs that have no relevance to the canon character. Why go on battle boards if you can't follow simple rules?

The What If universes, are legit alternate universes. In fact, the PF is the only thing that has ever destroyed an entire universe on panel under it's own power in ANY universe (baring things like the UN and the HotI).

Indeed the What If Phoenix Force have destroyed universes. The mainstream Phoenix Force can't. Thanks for pointing that out to everyone. Maybe when we're talking about What If characters you'd have a great argument on hand.

Necrom's destruction of a solar system, using the FRACTION of the PF he stole, was more than anything the LT has been shown doing ON PANEL.

LT removed Slorith, a dimensional eater, easily. By the way, do you know how much of a fraction that was? Thought so.

Jean's destruction and consumption of a star equals anything the LT has done ON PANEL.

Saved that time he beat Slorith and Zom. Then that other time Galactus was blasted away and LT's M-body was just sitting there enjoying the tan. But I guess star > Galactus right? lol. Then there's Dweller In Darkness who feared LT and said energy that could vaporize GALAXIES flare on his massive hand. Consuming stars? lol

Krueggar did more than the LT did, PERIOD.

Krueggar did nothing impressive. Two different Korvac. And LT removed Slorioth the same way but the difference is the Slorioth is a dimension eater while the GOTG Korvac isn't even close.

And why do you excuse the LT's low showings (Korvac, M-body killed by Reed) but play up the PF's?

Because Reed could do the exact some thing to the Phoenix Force. Two, Korvac did nothing the LT. The low showing is LT igniting a nova and failing to kill Korvac and leaving. It has nothing to do with his durability.

The Phoenix Force got shattered into a billion pieces by Xorn. Would you care to prove Xorn would do the same to the Tribunal?

Rook Shir, another host, was beaten by the Imperial Guard and killed despite possessing the PF. Do you want to argue that the Imperial Guard would do that to the Tribunal?

The Entity ship dragged the Phoenix Force from the 616, where according to you get's it's power from the PF, into the Ultraverse. Then it abused the Phoenix Force and used it as fuel. No would you care to argue the Tribunal would be treated the same?

The X-Men and Ultra Force fought and pushed the Phoenix Force through a portal. Do you think they would do jack against the Tribunal?

All you have is Reed's showing who can easily stomp the PF as well. And Korvac who did nothing to LT.

PS, I've noticed a pattern, ALL the LT's "win's" have been BFR. Either under his own power or by stealing power from other sources to bolster his own.

Aside from that Reed showing, LT has never been beaten by anything below the HOTU. The PF has.

Lol. Desperate much? On panel, we have the LT fleeing before Korvac! Not BFRing him, FLEEING HIM. On panel we have Kreuggar owning Korvac. You keep ignoring things like Jean being able to survive plunging into a star, making it go nova and consuming it. But play up Xorn giving her a planetary stroke. Stars > planets. MUCH MUCH greater.Using your logic above, I can say the Xorn story is BS right?

See above. The Tribunal has two low showing, on having nothing to do with his durability. While the Phoenix Force has around 5 where it's host dies or it is getting hurt and has to flee. Fleeing from Korvac? When did I deny that? But that's my whole point, even LT's lowest showing is still higher than PF. The PF fled from the Entity Ship and hide in Amber Hunt. It fled and tried to hide in Jean's corpse when the Shi'Ar dragged it out of the WHR. The PF's durability sucks. It would get stomped by the Tribunal.

The fact remains, in the Guardians of the Galaxy universe it was Giraud that saved the universe and not the LT. When asked who could possibly save him, he specifically said the PF.

WTF are you arguing this point for? It's not like LT showed up and failed. Giraud couldn't take down Dormammu at all. And like I said, if you want then put up a vs thread involving LT and Giraud. And see what happens. Only you and what's his face seem to believe line means Giraud is more powerful than LT.

In the Guardians of the Galaxy universe, the LT faced down and lost to the Protege.

Really? Explain lost. Did LT go K.O.ed or trapped or shattered into a billion pieces? What's lost?

He had to steal power from the Eye of Agamotto in order to even pass judgment and imprison the Protege.

So what did Protege do to the Tribunal that would be counted as a win, especially in a forum match?

And this is only because Scathan beat him down and restrained him! To add even more embarrassment to that fiasco, he thought he was doing it on the downlow, that no one was noticing his pilfering of power in order to pass judgment. But Talon, a complete NOVICE, took notice and called him out on it!

Scathan who LT was ordering around? You make it sound as if Protege actually beat LT in a fight. Did I miss something because I see no indication that the Phoenix Force would've done any better. But seeing how the PF has gotten stomped repeatedly it's not hard to argue Protege would stomp the PF if it was there.

So PF failed against Dual Dormammu but succeeded in saving Eternity (and hence the universe) from Bubonicus.

And again, if you believe Giraud is more powerful than LT then put up a Vs thread and see if everyone agrees with you.

The LT FAILED to do anything against the Protege and had to be bailed out by Scathan.

? He never attacked Protege so how can you say he failed? lol Scathan put the muzzle on Protege. The same Scathan that LT orders around. Then LT passed judgment and put Protege and absorbed him. He did siphon power from the amulet. Nobody is arguing he didn't. But Protege did nothing to the Tribunal and the Tribunal never acted yet. Fail? Where did he fail?

Seems like the PF did more than the LT to me.

Lol. If you bring in those What Ifs.

There's a whole Respect the Living Tribunal thread on this very forum. Feel free to look up the scans there and post what you find impressive. Sad fact is Mr. Master listed all his most "impressive" on panel showings and they are a joke.

? You have mostly showings from What Ifs. Like I said, put up a vs between the Tribunal and Phoenix Force. Those What Ifs showings being counted as feats would be ignored by the entire board.

This is why you have to keep bringing up the PF's low showings, ignore the LT's low showings, and play down the fact that he got nothing on panel to back up all the hype surrounding him. Else you would have presented it and ended this a long time ago.

lol. Already answered this above.

PS while you're at it, check out the PF respect thread and compare feats. You'll be pleasantly surprised. Or not.

lol. Have seen everything already. Have gone through this fight before. Nothing new. Even when what's his face tried to claim the abstracts were bowing before the PF using that crappy cut up scan of his to try and deceive the board.

It's basically

What Ifs and more what if
X-Men Forever with deceitful scan
PF needing the proper alignment to project the light house throughout the cosmos
PF = Big Bang. Ergo it must mean it has all the powers of the universe including the IG when it doesn't even display power remotely close to the IG.
It beating a hungry Galactus
Shutting down the Crystal that it is a guardian too
Here Comes Tomorrow where it changed Scott's heart and fixed the future of the universe. And like I said, if you want to argue that some things a just images than the brothers are just an image and was this feat. It wasn't really a universe, just an image and Jean telephathically changed Scott's mind in the past.

Originally posted by zopzop
So even if Giraud failed against Dual Dormammu, he at least saved the universe. That's more than the LT did in the GotG timeline.

I do get it, but it's different if you can't do anything against Protege or at least saving the universe. Big difference. Why a difference? Because no one was able to do anything against Protege, not only LT, except Scathan.
If he at least saved a universe and doing nothing against Protege, that doesn't help or give a plus to PF. And he did something to Protege. Well, with help of Scathan and EOTA he saved all realities and no one else did. The duo did it.
Saving a universe wouldn't help it against Protege. That's the difference.

And as I remember Franklin Richards also destroyed a What If or an alternate universe, not only PF.
Abraxas was also destroying other universes.
MJJ also warped other universe to such degree it was unrecognizable. That's more than just destroying it.

Protege didn't destroy a universe, but do you doubt that he could do it?

LT could change the whole 616 physical universe with the Ultimate Universe and change the whole main continuum.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I do get it, but it's different if you can't do anything against Protege or at least saving the universe. Big difference. Why a difference? Because no one was able to do anything against Protege, not only LT, except Scathan.

But what do the Tribunal attempt to do before passing judgement? I don't recall him attacking Protege at all. Am I missing something except him telling Protege to stop his blasphemous display. The Hawk God blasted Protege. Protege attacks the court with everyone blasted away to a degree except the Tribunal who merely glows his eyes and Scathan (who we don't see). Then Scathan steps into the fray and puts the muzzle on Protege. The Tribunal the passes judgement on Protege and absorbs him.

Before Scathan stopped or restrained Protege, LT did say that all realities now lies on Protege shoulders, like in a way he couldn't stop or powerless against him. Then Scathan restrained Protege and then was LT capable of passing judgment.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
On panel he braced for the attack twice. Once after Warlock merely turned on the Gauntlet's power and LT was standing next to him unaffected without trying to shield like Ziran. We do know Warlock was trying to stop the court and that's why he attacked. He even asked that they dared to judge him then he attacked the court. How hard is that for you to understand that he that attack not been stopped by the Tribunal, Ziran would been blasted away like was against Thanos and Nebula.

All you got is this nonsense argument that somehow it's not impress for the Tribunal when all others could NOTHING to stop an IG users attack.

duh.

It's in the scan.

Ziran also got killed against Thanos with the HOTU. Then Thanos admitted that LT was the highest in the cosmic totem. WTF is there to debate when Thanos has had possession of the IG and the HOTU and has actually fought Ziran twice, owning him twice. Then he admits LT is the highest power of the cosmics.

See. Above. He did more than anybody during the series by just snapping his finger. By this point why bother with you when it's obvious you try to deny everything and know shit about M-bodies. Even the fact that LT's M-body was making a fool out of an IG. You might not be impressive, but then again you chose not to be.

Warlock gave up despite his threats. An M-body was willing to destroy a dimension when Warlock threaten to fight. There's nothing to debate here because Warlock do nothing to LT and it was LT that passed judgement and willing to fight. There other abstracts did absolute jack shit.

Again with this. ON PANEL, a bunch of M-bodies were thrown about with the exception of Ziran and the LT. Ziran is supposedly weaker than Etnernity/Chaos/Order. How did he withstand the attack but the others couldn't? The LT snapping his fingers to restore order to a bunch of simulacrums isn't an impressive feat at all! Ziran was bracing and holding his ground without any sort of assistance at all.

The LT admitted he didn't know if he could force the IG from Adam. Couldn't shut it down without Adam's consent (or else he would have done so). And finally guilted/talked him out of a fight.

That's all that was shown on panel. You can spin it any way you want it, but that's what was shown.

Please, you wanted to use handbooks and titles so I applied just that. Now you're whining to me? Please. The one who's using handbooks as if it's relevant and What Ifs is if it mattered was YOU. Go back to every thread before and it's obvious. Down whine when I used it against you.

Who's whining? If you want to exclude handbooks, they were merely architects of their respective realities (assuming he had their actuality in his hands), if you want to include handbooks they are just guardians. Either way, this feat is meaningless.

You're claiming it's just an image of the Brothers when there's no indication anywhere that it is. Then you brought up Odin's death to which there was panels and panels stating that his death was felt by all including the Tribunal. One has nothing to do with the other except you trying to suggest it was just an image of the brothers when it states that nowhere in the book.

Unless you can provide something showing that was their actuality, you're just blowing steam. Even then, holding the two architects in his hands is less impressive than holding a universe and rearranging it atom by atom.

It has one feat of it holding the universe to which it could be argued that it's just an image since you like doing that so much. That the actual universe was fixed because she changed Scott's feeling about Emma which prevented Here Comes Tomorrow and fixing the universe. The atom by atom part can easily be argued to the atoms which she used to form the image in her hands. It says right there that Cyclops' succumbs to loneliness and Henry (Beast), who was the cause of HCT, to which Quinn says you have to water it with you heart's blood. And you see an image of the PF there where Jean says live Scott live. The last page is at Jean's grave where Scott changes his mind and decides to move on with Emma and continue the fight for mutant right - preventing HCT and fixing the universe. Changing Scott's heart is something Mistress Love or even the Enchantress can do.

😆

As for everything else, nothing much but a bunch of What Ifs that have no relevance to the canon character. Why go on battle boards if you can't follow simple rules?

Indeed the What If Phoenix Force have destroyed universes. The mainstream Phoenix Force can't. Thanks for pointing that out to everyone. Maybe when we're talking about What If characters you'd have a great argument on hand.

LT removed Slorith, a dimensional eater, easily. By the way, do you know how much of a fraction that was? Thought so.

Saved that time he beat Slorith and Zom. Then that other time Galactus was blasted away and LT's M-body was just sitting there enjoying the tan. But I guess star > Galactus right? lol. Then there's Dweller In Darkness who feared LT and said energy that could vaporize GALAXIES flare on his massive hand. Consuming stars? lol

The alternate universe showings are important because it's the only time I've seen of a character destroying a universe under it's own power. Something the LT has never done. The LT's highest on panel feat is matched by Jean and surpassed by Necrom in 616 using the PF.

Krueggar did nothing impressive. Two different Korvac. And LT removed Slorioth the same way but the difference is the Slorioth is a dimension eater while the GOTG Korvac isn't even close.

Krueggar BFRed Korvac, the LT ran from him. Grats to the LT for BFRing Slorioth. I mean how hard was it to open a portal and let him move on to a realm where he could feast in peace.

Because Reed could do the exact some thing to the Phoenix Force. Two, Korvac did nothing the LT. The low showing is LT igniting a nova and failing to kill Korvac and leaving. It has nothing to do with his durability.

The Phoenix Force got shattered into a billion pieces by Xorn. Would you care to prove Xorn would do the same to the Tribunal?

Rook Shir, another host, was beaten by the Imperial Guard and killed despite possessing the PF. Do you want to argue that the Imperial Guard would do that to the Tribunal?

The Entity ship dragged the Phoenix Force from the 616, where according to you get's it's power from the PF, into the Ultraverse. Then it abused the Phoenix Force and used it as fuel. No would you care to argue the Tribunal would be treated the same?

The X-Men and Ultra Force fought and pushed the Phoenix Force through a portal. Do you think they would do jack against the Tribunal?

All you have is Reed's showing who can easily stomp the PF as well. And Korvac who did nothing to LT.

Aside from that Reed showing, LT has never been beaten by anything below the HOTU. The PF has.

So if Reed is such a force that he could own the LT and even the PF (according to you) then his ON PANEL statement that the PF is the Big Bang is beyond dispute. And I'll let that statement speak for itself.

See above. The Tribunal has two low showing, on having nothing to do with his durability. While the Phoenix Force has around 5 where it's host dies or it is getting hurt and has to flee. Fleeing from Korvac? When did I deny that? But that's my whole point, even LT's lowest showing is still higher than PF. The PF fled from the Entity Ship and hide in Amber Hunt. It fled and tried to hide in Jean's corpse when the Shi'Ar dragged it out of the WHR. The PF's durability sucks. It would get stomped by the Tribunal.

The LT also has ZERO high showings of on panel power. Just talk. That's it.

WTF are you arguing this point for? It's not like LT showed up and failed. Giraud couldn't take down Dormammu at all. And like I said, if you want then put up a vs thread involving LT and Giraud. And see what happens. Only you and what's his face seem to believe line means Giraud is more powerful than LT.

The LT never shows up when it counts (Eternity dying from Bubonicus, M'kran Crystal shattered, Maelstrom's black hole, Thanos with the IG) and FAILS to do ANYTHING vs truly multiversal threats (Protege, HotI).

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]Really? Explain lost. Did LT go K.O.ed or trapped or shattered into a billion pieces? What's lost?

Being blown apart by Reed, fleeing Korvac, purposely avoiding Thanos with the IG, getting owned by Protege, etc....

So what did Protege do to the Tribunal that would be counted as a win, especially in a forum match?

The Protege was completely beyond the LT (as shown on panel). Just because he didn't knock his head off doesn't mean anything. The LT needed Scathan and the Eye of Agamotto to even pass judgment on him.

Scathan who LT was ordering around? You make it sound as if Protege actually beat LT in a fight. Did I miss something because I see no indication that the Phoenix Force would've done any better. But seeing how the PF has gotten stomped repeatedly it's not hard to argue Protege would stomp the PF if it was there.

Really? The LT was ordering Scathan around? Last time I checked, Scathan was observing the hearing and acted when the Protege knocked the cosmics on their asses. Even if the PF would fail against the Protege, it already at least saved the universe. That's more than the LT did in the whole GotG series.

And again, if you believe Giraud is more powerful than LT then put up a Vs thread and see if everyone agrees with you.

? He never attacked Protege so how can you say he failed? lol Scathan put the muzzle on Protege. The same Scathan that LT orders around. Then LT passed judgment and put Protege and absorbed him. He did siphon power from the amulet. Nobody is arguing he didn't. But Protege did nothing to the Tribunal and the Tribunal never acted yet. Fail? Where did he fail?

OMG. Yeah, you're right. The Protege never blasted the court and sent it's members flying until Scathan restrained him and restored order. Then held him as the LT SECRETLY drew power from the Eye and was caught out by a complete novice.

Lol. If you bring in those What Ifs.

? You have mostly showings from What Ifs. Like I said, put up a vs between the Tribunal and Phoenix Force. Those What Ifs showings being counted as feats would be ignored by the entire board.

lol. Already answered this above.

Because it's one of the very few (only?) times anyone has destroyed a universe under it's own power!

lol. Have seen everything already. Have gone through this fight before. Nothing new. Even when what's his face tried to claim the abstracts were bowing before the PF using that crappy cut up scan of his to try and deceive the board.

You pick out that one error but ignore the rest?

It's basically

What Ifs and more what if
X-Men Forever with deceitful scan
PF needing the proper alignment to project the light house throughout the cosmos
PF = Big Bang. Ergo it must mean it has all the powers of the universe including the IG when it doesn't even display power remotely close to the IG.
It beating a hungry Galactus
Shutting down the Crystal that it is a guardian too
Here Comes Tomorrow where it changed Scott's heart and fixed the future of the universe. And like I said, if you want to argue that some things a just images than the brothers are just an image and was this feat. It wasn't really a universe, just an image and Jean telephathically changed Scott's mind in the past.

616 -
Jean making a star go nova = LT's highest on panel showing of power

Necrom nuking a solar system > LT's highest on panel showing of power

Jean holding a universe in her hands and rearranging it atom by atom > Lt's Highest on panel showing of power

*****Vulcan destroying multiple galaxies, killing Annihilus, and destroying 1/3 of the Annihilation Wave (while being held in check by Jean) > LT's highest on panel showing of power

Alternate Realities -
The PF destroying two alternate universes > LT's highest on panel showing of power

****If the M'kran Crystal is the nexus point of realities in the Multiverse then Vulcan's feats in What If : Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar are allowed to be used

Originally posted by Xplosive
Before Scathan stopped or restrained Protege, LT did say that all realities now lies on Protege shoulders,

Wasn't it the Beyonder who said that?

like in a way he couldn't stop or powerless against him. Then Scathan restrained Protege and then was LT capable of passing judgment.

Except that's not what happened. The Protege attacked, Scathan muzzled him. Then as the LT was passing judgment, Scathan removed the muzzle at the LT's request but continued to restrain him. The LT then had to steal power SECRETLY from the Eye of Agamotto to be capable of passing judgment and then imprisoning the Protege.

Talon, a novice sorcerer, caught him and confronted him. Then the LT tped them all away.

Originally posted by Xplosive ]I do get it, but it's different if you can't do anything against Protege or at least saving the universe. Big difference. Why a difference? Because no one was able to do anything against Protege, not only LT, except Scathan.
If he at least saved a universe and doing nothing against Protege, that doesn't help or give a plus to PF. And he did something to Protege. Well, with help of Scathan and EOTA he saved all realities and no one else did. The duo did it.
Saving a universe wouldn't help it against Protege. That's the difference.

No you still don't get it I see. Every time something truly multiverse shaking goes on the LT is powerless to stop it (Protege, HotI, etc..)

But when something "merely" universe shaking is going on, he's a no show.

He's NEVER saved the multiverse. He's NEVER saved a universe. What the ---- does he do with himself?

And as I remember Franklin Richards also destroyed a What If or an alternate universe, not only PF.
Abraxas was also destroying other universes.
MJJ also warped other universe to such degree it was unrecognizable. That's more than just destroying it.

What what if was this? Issue please. Abraxas wasn't destroying anything except Galactus'. MJJ I'll give you, but when push came to shove, his "Jasper's Warp" only permanently affected the UK.

Protege didn't destroy a universe, but do you doubt that he could do it?

What has he been shown destroying on panel Xplosive? Can you show me?

LT could change the whole 616 physical universe with the Ultimate Universe and change the whole main continuum.

Could he? He's done it before on panel? Scans of him doing it?

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
He's a hardcore fanboy on the level of Quanchi. And you know how much sense Quan has.

Originally posted by Xplosive

Abotu Jean. WPOTC did what she did to 616 universe (but only in the WHR), but that was actually the same PF that was empowering her that was blew up by Xorn and a Ship, right?

Xp ive been through this with you already. Its like i tell you something and point it out and panel and you accept it, only to forget just weeks later 😬

Why are you saying ONLY in the WHR?

Jean may have been in the WHR when she manipulated the atoms of 616 in her palm but as stated on panel the feat was achieved through Jeans telekinesis, NOT some imaginary powerup some ignorant posters argue she receives from being in the WHR.

Furthermore Jean BEFORE she went into the WHR destroyed 150 years of timeline telekinetically therefore giving precedence for her having the power to do such high level things.

Do NOT mention her being in the WHR again like it in any way affected the feat.