Dark Phoenix vs Scarlet Witch

Started by Badabing20 pages

Originally posted by zopzop
He's cursing me out and while I'm merely stating that he's not understanding the point I'm trying to make. And for this I'm about to be banned?

I never attacked him personally or cursed him out. It seems that either a) I can't articulate my position clear enough or b) He really doesn't understand what I'm trying to say.

What are you on about? sneer

I said you and Xplosive needed to stop whatever was going on.

Now, disagreeing with GS in a Phoenix thread is bannable. biscuits

Xplosive, you were out of control in this thread. It would be best that Pr or I don't get any valid reports or complaints about you anytime soon.

And I will be specifically checking in on this thread while it's still active.

Originally posted by zopzop
Being blown apart by Reed, fleeing Korvac, purposely avoiding Thanos with the IG, getting owned by Protege, etc....

Avoiding Thanos? That story would've been one book if Starlin got LT involved. Oh wait, LT was involved in Warlock's affair under Starlin and the whole time the M-body LT told Warlock off and Warlock back down when a fight came up.

Reed would piss on PForce because Xorn already pissed on the entire Force. Then the Shi'Ar wanted to piss on it again and it ran and hide in Jean's corpse. WTF? Some cosmic.


The Protege was completely beyond the LT (as shown on panel). Just because he didn't knock his head off doesn't mean anything. The LT needed Scathan and the Eye of Agamotto to even pass judgment on him.

? Nowhere does that happen. LT remained in the same spot he was in the panel before while everyone else got blasted away. Scathan stepped in did after before LT so I don't see your point. As for the Eye, the Tribunal can and has accessed mystic forces before. What's your point? All it means is the Tribunal is more versatile than the Phoenix Force which doesn't have the same luxury. And all this talk of the PF being the power behind the IG and yet even it's host has NEVER had true omniscience like an IG or wished things into existence. Can you say Crimson Bands of Cyttorak Phoenix Force? Nevermind, it's too busy saying grrrrgghh and then shattering into a billion pieces.


Really? The LT was ordering Scathan around? Last time I checked, Scathan was observing the hearing and acted when the Protege knocked the cosmics on their asses. Even if the PF would fail against the Protege, it already at least saved the universe. That's more than the LT did in the whole GotG series.

LT: Your actions are inexcusable! Scathan - remove the celestial muzzle.
*Scathan removes the muzzle*

Good job Scathan, taking order from your superior.


I don't care if they agree with me or not. It's about what's shown on panel.

And the board doesn't care for your so called feats. As far as the board is concerned, the Phoenix Force never destroyed any universe. Only What If versions of the characters have. The real deal has NEVER done so. Hahahaha


OMG. Yeah, you're right. The Protege never blasted the court and sent it's members flying until Scathan restrained him and restored order. Then held him as the LT SECRETLY drew power from the Eye and was caught out by a complete novice.

Yeah, look everyone else went flying except the Tribunal who stayed in the same spot he was in the previous panel. He was NEVER affected.


Because it's one of the very few (only?) times anyone has destroyed a universe under it's own power!

So it's never destroyed a universe. That's all this board and every other battle board cares for, the mainstream character. The real Phoenix Force never destroyed any universe. The end.


You pick out that one error but ignore the rest?

Man your gullible. That wasn't an error. An error would mean you he unintentionally did it. The entire board knows he intentionally cropped the panels to make it sound as if it was the PF they were bowing too when it was actually the Stranger. This was back about 5 years and it was only stopped when I and the other board members actually picked up the book and went through it.


616 -
Jean making a star go nova = LT's highest on panel showing of power

Jean also died because of a planetary stroke = worse than Reed Richards owning abstracts like he always does


Necrom nuking a solar system > LT's highest on panel showing of power

Because Necrom was about to replace the 616 with the Ultimates universe right? Or stood in front of an IG user while the other abstracts were trying to block it's effect? lol Who talks about Necrom any more? Some chump that destroyed a solar system while a galaxy buster like Odin was just whisper to LT according to Thor writters. Even omnipotent Odin means little to the cosmic judge. Eat that.


Jean holding a universe in her hands and rearranging it atom by atom > Lt's Highest on panel showing of power.

Her one feat that could hope to begin to kept with a cosmic judge that prevented two brother's fight that would destroy and recreate two megaverse just by clenching them in his and or even better just by clenching the visions of the brother.


*****Vulcan destroying multiple galaxies, killing Annihilus, and destroying 1/3 of the Annihilation Wave (while being held in check by Jean) > LT's highest on panel showing of power

Yeah well nobody gives a sh!t about What If versions of a character. Nobdy here goes, OMG look what What Thanos can do!! OMG look at what WHAT IF Wolverine can do!!!


Alternate Realities -
The PF destroying two alternate universes > LT's highest on panel showing of power

To which nobody on this board gives it credit for because they're not the same being. Hence alternate version!


****If the M'kran Crystal is the nexus point of realities in the Multiverse then Vulcan's feats in What If : Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar are allowed to be used

lol. The M'Krann Crystal is a the nexus, the Phoenix Force isn't. The Phoenix Force in that What If and the Phoenix Force from the mainstream books are different beings. lol at you for your weak sauce attempt at bringing in alternate versions to give PF more universal feats. Nobody on this board cares. Nobody on any battle board cares.

Originally posted by Badabing
What are you on about? sneer

I said you and Xplosive needed to stop whatever was going on.

Now, disagreeing with GS in a Phoenix thread is bannable. biscuits

Xplosive, you were out of control in this thread. It would be best that Pr or I don't get any valid reports or complaints about you anytime soon.

And I will be specifically checking in on this thread while it's still active.

So what's the verdict on What If's being used a feats for a character? Somebody here seems to think it counts as feats for 616/mainstream character.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So what's the verdict on What If's being used a feats for a character? Somebody here seems to think it counts as feats for 616/mainstream character.
Generally What Ifs aren't used. I know there are some cases where they end up being canon. So a poster would have to prove that the What If is canon.

The title alone should suggest that its not canon. Of course I cannot out run a car going 30 MPH but "what if" I can run like Quick Silver.

I have enough of this thread. Talking something (speculations speculations), while in the same time using non canons. WTF!

Originally posted by Xplosive
I have enough of this thread. Talking something (speculations speculations), while in the same time using non canons. WTF!

I hope you're not referring to me because i made my point very clear in my response to you which you have yet to reply to 😬

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I hope you're not referring to me because i made my point very clear in my response to you which you have yet to reply to 😬

Of course not.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Not at all, because if you go back to the most powerful mutant thread in the X-men forums ive already had this out with both you and ExodusCloak in detail.

The Here Comes Tomorrow storyline heralded being a Phoenix host as the pinnacle of mutation, "the ultimate mutation" and what made it so powerful as stated throughout the series was its "telekinetic godhood". An unprecedented level of telekinetic power that meant Jean could do anything she set her mind to. Throughout the series we saw her telekinesis expand and a conversation between her and Logan talked of her having the power to telekinetically form universes. The series then had Jean telekinetically converting asteroid matter into a spaceship and powering it with energy from the Sun. In HCT she atomized a civilization then telekinetically slowed down time to study the process of atomization on a mutant body.

Then [B]BEFORE entering the WHR, she telekinetically amputated 150 years of timeline which is a greater feat than manipulating 616 in her palm anyway. Therefore there is precedence for her displaying such a high level of power. So NO Xp this isnt the same situation at all. Given the focus of the series on Jeans growing telekinetic power and the feats she performed before antering the WHR, given the fact that the WHR feat was stated to be telekinetically achieved it would be speculation and fantasy on YOUR part to claim that Jean could only do it in the WHR. [/B]

What you answered here is not what I wanted to know.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Only mere fragments of the Force have been shattered. Furthermore people seem to have a limited vision of what true indestructibility is. All people seem to picture is a hulk or superman type whereby an energy blasts hits them and they remain intact. Thats not truly indestructible. If a cosmic ripped superman's head off he'd be dead. A Phoenix energy avatar possesses true indestructibility. Its energy matrix can be blown apart across galaxies, its form can be used as fuel and yet afterwards it just casually reforms. That is why by canon as stated on panel and in the handbooks it is stated to be mutable(look up the definition) totally indestructible life force. That is a canon fact, so your concerns with regards to its durability are unwarranted.

And that is what I am saying all the time.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I didn't forget anything. I know it's the particle of the the full PF.

As you can see, I was saying about fragments.

I know it's the part of the full PF and I said it was part of the full PF that was empowering WPOTC, but the same portion was also shattered so easily.
Then I said that still the part of the PF can be shattered and there wasn't even such big powers that shattered it (but of course didn't destroy it).
Only part or fragment of the PF has awesome power as seen for WPOTC, but can also be shattered so easily, that is why I said in a direct confrotation, someone like LT could easily shatter it (yes, fragment).
Fair would be LT vs. full PF.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]Avoiding Thanos? That story would've been one book if Starlin got LT involved. Oh wait, LT was involved in Warlock's affair under Starlin and the whole time the M-body LT told Warlock off and Warlock back down when a fight came up.

Or stood in front of an IG user while the other abstracts were trying to block it's effect? lol Who talks about Necrom any more?

Except Ziran braced himself and withstood too while other higher level beings went flying. Eternity himself stated if this had been him and not his M-body nothing would have happened. Why? Because Adam wasn't trying to kill them.

And yes he avoided Thanos. Just like he wanted to avoid fighting Warlock and resorted to guilting him out of the fight. "Is this the kind of God you are"? LOL.

ON PANEL, the LT couldn't shut down the Gems without Adam's consent. ON PANEL, the LT didn't know if he could force the Gems from his hand. ON PANEL, the LT had to talk Warlock out of the Gems.

Reed would piss on PForce because Xorn already pissed on the entire Force. Then the Shi'Ar wanted to piss on it again and it ran and hide in Jean's corpse. WTF? Some cosmic.

I don't care what Reed would do to the PF. The fact that the guy that can own beings like the LT and Galactus stating on panel that the PF is the Big Bang should tell you something. I can see it don't sink in, but it's there on panel.

? Nowhere does that happen. LT remained in the same spot he was in the panel before while everyone else got blasted away. Scathan stepped in did after before LT so I don't see your point. As for the Eye, the Tribunal can and has accessed mystic forces before. What's your point? All it means is the Tribunal is more versatile than the Phoenix Force which doesn't have the same luxury. And all this talk of the PF being the power behind the IG and yet even it's host has NEVER had true omniscience like an IG or wished things into existence. Can you say Crimson Bands of Cyttorak Phoenix Force? Nevermind, it's too busy saying grrrrgghh and then shattering into a billion pieces.

Yeah, look everyone else went flying except the Tribunal who stayed in the same spot he was in the previous panel. He was NEVER affected.

Where did you get that from? On panel we just have a piece of the LT's face that's it. Show me where he held his ground?

LT: Your actions are inexcusable! Scathan - remove the celestial muzzle.
*Scathan removes the muzzle*

Good job Scathan, taking order from your superior.

Except for the part where it states on panel and in the handbook that the Protege was about to usurp the LT's position until Scathan stepped in and saved him and all reality.

Also, Scathan did not approve of the Protege's actions that's what caused him to get involved and stop his rampage. Then after judgment was passed, Eternity mentioned that Scathan approved of it. Why would the court seek the opinion of an inferior?

And the board doesn't care for your so called feats. As far as the board is concerned, the Phoenix Force never destroyed any universe. Only What If versions of the characters have. The real deal has NEVER done so. Hahahaha

So it's never destroyed a universe. That's all this board and every other battle board cares for, the mainstream character. The real Phoenix Force never destroyed any universe. The end.

Yeah well nobody gives a sh!t about What If versions of a character. Nobdy here goes, OMG look what What Thanos can do!! OMG look at what WHAT IF Wolverine can do!!!

To which nobody on this board gives it credit for because they're not the same being. Hence alternate version!

The point, my thick friend, is that ONLY the PF has been shown destroying universes ON PANEL under it's own power. Everyone other cosmic threat needed a device such as the UN or the HotI.

Man your gullible. That wasn't an error. An error would mean you he unintentionally did it. The entire board knows he intentionally cropped the panels to make it sound as if it was the PF they were bowing too when it was actually the Stranger. This was back about 5 years and it was only stopped when I and the other board members actually picked up the book and went through it.

He generally knows what he's talking about so I'm going to assume he messed up. Look at Mr. Master, in his "Respect the Beyonder" thread, he states that it's Rachel Summers crying and praying to God as the Beyonder kills the New Mutants. It's OBVIOUSLY not Rachel Summers but Wolfsbane. Did he do that on purpose (to make the Beyonder look more badass) or did he mess up? I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and say he messed up.

Jean also died because of a planetary stroke = worse than Reed Richards owning abstracts like he always does

Jean died because the writer wanted her to die. Just like the LT was blown apart because the writer wanted Reed to blow him apart. Just like Spiderman floored Firelord.

Because Necrom was about to replace the 616 with the Ultimates universe right? Some chump that destroyed a solar system while a galaxy buster like Odin was just whisper to LT according to Thor writters. Even omnipotent Odin means little to the cosmic judge. Eat that.

Because the LT has been shown replacing universes or destroying them before on panel right? And you can show this to me?

Her one feat that could hope to begin to kept with a cosmic judge that prevented two brother's fight that would destroy and recreate two megaverse just by clenching them in his and or even better just by clenching the visions of the brother.

They were retconned from Creators to Architects and if you want to include handbook info, Guardians. Not the same as holding an entire universe in the palm of your hands. And this again assumes he had their actuality in his hands.

For your benefit :
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/architect?show=0&t=1289419767

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
lol. The M'Krann Crystal is a the nexus, the Phoenix Force isn't. The Phoenix Force in that What If and the Phoenix Force from the mainstream books are different beings. lol at you for your weak sauce attempt at bringing in alternate versions to give PF more universal feats. Nobody on this board cares. Nobody on any battle board cares.

Marvel's official definition of the multiverse (among other things) as of 2005 :

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Official Marvel info concerning the M'Krann Crystal :

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Confirmed on panel :

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Vulcan falling into the M'krann, aquiring the power of the Phoenix (not all Jean still had the bulk as it shows at the end of the issue) :

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Hence Vulcan's feats are valid.

To recap

The Multiverse consists of 616, all What If universes, and all alternate Earths

The M'krann Crystal exists in all the universes in the Multiverse

The M'krann Crystal houses the Neutron Galaxy and the White Hot Room (home plane of the PF)

Vulcan fell inside the Crystal, made it to the White Hot Room, acquired a good chunk of the PF, re-entered his reality and went on to destroy 7 galaxies, 1/3 of the Annihilation Wave and Annihilus himself.

So we have PF hosts doing the following on panel :

Making a star go nova (matching the LT's best on panel display of power)

Destroying a solar system (greater than any on panel showing of power by the LT)

Destroying several galaxies, a good chunk of the Annihilation Wave and Annihilus himself (geater than any on panel showing of the LT)

Holding a universe in the palm of it's hand and rearranging it atom by atom (greater than any on panel showing of the LT).

All this doesn't' include it's alternate selves destroying universes on panel under their own power.

Originally posted by zopzop
Except Ziran braced himself and withstood too while other higher level beings went flying. Eternity himself stated if this had been him and not his M-body nothing would have happened. Why? Because Adam wasn't trying to kill them.

And yes he avoided Thanos. Just like he wanted to avoid fighting Warlock and resorted to guilting him out of the fight. "Is this the kind of God you are"? LOL.

ON PANEL, the LT couldn't shut down the Gems without Adam's consent. ON PANEL, the LT didn't know if he could force the Gems from his hand. ON PANEL, the LT had to talk Warlock out of the Gems.

If it was nothing than why was Warlock shock at LT stopping and reversing said attack? You bring up Ziran but Warlock was shock and LT's power, not Ziran or anybody. Then when LT, an M-body, told him he represented power that are above the IG all Warlock could do was say that is to be seen? If he had more power than LT, than why not continuing attacking the court afterwards and try and stop it once again? Oh that's right because he was stopped by the Tribunal and astonished at the feat. lol. Then when he threatened a fight he backed down when a mere M-body was willing to wreck the a dimension to get it. The fact LT gave him a chance to Warlock is NOTHING NEW. He gave Dr Strange a chance in their first meeting, he She-Hulk a chance to defend against the replace of her universe with another, and even removed Slorith to another dimension where it can feed peaces. You have no argument so stop debating this point. That he didn't shut down the gems was because he knew of the outcome. Warlock knew of the outcome. He Warlock won, he could've fixed that dimension easily. He sure as hell wasn't and thus gave up rather than put that dimension through a fight and still lose.


I don't care what Reed would do to the PF. The fact that the guy that can own beings like the LT and Galactus stating on panel that the PF is the Big Bang should tell you something. I can see it don't sink in, but it's there on panel.

Are you deaf? I told you I'm not saying the PF isn't the big bang. But being the embodiment of the big bang doesn't give you power over everyone in the universe. It has displayed anything like the IG. It would've been killed by Galactus. It got pulled into the Ultra Force from it's native 616 that you claim it draws it power from. It being the big bang means jack because none of that has kept other beings from stomping it. The end.


Where did you get that from? On panel we just have a piece of the LT's face that's it. Show me where he held his ground?

On the panel before that, we see part of his face in the same lower right hand corner. We see everyone else being blast away. WTF are you asking when he didn't move from his spot at all.


Except for the part where it states on panel and in the handbook that the Protege was about to usurp the LT's position until Scathan stepped in and saved him and all reality.

He wanted to usurp TOAA in the book. The whole time he was saying I'm the new TOAA. Your handbook is wrong. Scathan attacked Protege before LT reacted. Then LT orders Scathan to release Protege and LT renders judgment and puts Protege away. Scathan didn't put Protege and took orders from LT.


Also, Scathan did not approve of the Protege's actions that's what caused him to get involved and stop his rampage. Then after judgment was passed, Eternity mentioned that Scathan approved of it. Why would the court seek the opinion of an inferior?

lol at this. Whether or not Scathan approves of something, it has no baring on the court. Scathan was merely agreeing with the decisions made, he had no control of what the Tribunal does. Hence why LT rendered judgment and absorbed Protege before Scathan only approved.


The point, my thick friend, is that ONLY the PF has been shown destroying universes ON PANEL under it's own power. Everyone other cosmic threat needed a device such as the UN or the HotI.

The Phoenix Force has never destroyed a universe. What If versions have. Not the same thing.

"Originally posted by Badabing
Generally What Ifs aren't used. I know there are some cases where they end up being canon. So a poster would have to prove that the What If is canon."


He generally knows what he's talking about so I'm going to assume he messed up. Look at Mr. Master, in his "Respect the Beyonder" thread, he states that it's Rachel Summers crying and praying to God as the Beyonder kills the New Mutants. It's OBVIOUSLY not Rachel Summers but Wolfsbane. Did he do that on purpose (to make the Beyonder look more badass) or did he mess up? I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and say he messed up.

Hahaha. "I'm going to assume he messed up?" Welcome to the board noob.


Jean died because the writer wanted her to die. Just like the LT was blown apart because the writer wanted Reed to blow him apart. Just like Spiderman floored Firelord.

lol. And how many times has a writer wanted the Phoenix Force to get stomped? At least 6 writers have written the PF vulnerable, with some of the worst showing for an cosmic entity.

Grant Morrison - Dies at Xorns hand
Dan Abnett & Ian Edginton - PF becomes a fuel cell; hides from ship in Amber Hunt; gets beaten into a portal by X-Men & Ultra Force
Ed Brubaker - Rook Shir is hunted down killed by the Imperial Guards
Greg Pak - Shi'Ar pulls the PF from the WHR and tries to kill it. The Force flees and tries to hide inside Jean's corpse.
Chris Claremont - Galactus was about to kill the PF


Because the LT has been shown replacing universes or destroying them before on panel right? And you can show this to me?

Yeah, the one where he was going to replace the 616 with the Ultimates universe but She-Hulk argued and won that case so he didn't.


They were retconned from Creators to Architects and if you want to include handbook info, Guardians. Not the same as holding an entire universe in the palm of your hands. And this again assumes he had their actuality in his hands.

That book didn't retcon their fight that ended the two megaverses and brought it back. In fact, it says the brothers are playing out the conflict of existence but not just yet (when the LT closes his hand). No where does it retcon any of that. They're still battling a battle that would end and restart existence as they did in DC Vs Marvel. And the entire thing was just a play of destiny orchestrated by the Tribunal and the Spectre. Letse you find any being prevent powers that can destroy and restart two megaverse just by closing their clenching their hand?


For your benefit :
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/architect?show=0&t=1289419767 [/B]

lol at you. See above. The fact that their architects doesn't prevent them from fighting a fight that destroys and bringing back two megaverses. He closed his hand and prevented their roles.
Then a few pages later he was about to open it up again after consulting with the Spectre.

Image or not, the two brothers could not fight a fight that destroys and brings back two megaverse unless the LT opened his hand. Take your dictionary and shove it. Go read the actual comics.

Originally posted by zopzop
Marvel's official definition of the multiverse (among other things) as of 2005 :

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Official Marvel info concerning the M'Krann Crystal :

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Confirmed on panel :

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Vulcan falling into the M'krann, aquiring the power of the Phoenix (not all Jean still had the bulk as it shows at the end of the issue) :

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Hence Vulcan's feats are valid.

So basically you want to argue Vulcan went into the WHR, murdered the Phoenix avatars, absorbed the entire PF, and went about destroying galaxies? That fine by me. I've always argued that the PF is powerful but has among the worse durability record among the cosmics. This merely supports other evidence such as Xorn, Entity Ship, Galactus, Shi'Ar tech, and X-Men/Ultra Force kicking it's but. LT would wreck it in a fight.


[b]To recap

The Multiverse consists of 616, all What If universes, and all alternate Earths

The M'krann Crystal exists in all the universes in the Multiverse

The M'krann Crystal houses the Neutron Galaxy and the White Hot Room (home plane of the PF)

Vulcan fell inside the Crystal, made it to the White Hot Room, acquired a good chunk of the PF, re-entered his reality and went on to destroy 7 galaxies, 1/3 of the Annihilation Wave and Annihilus himself.[/b]

He didn't aquire a good chunk of it. He aquired the Phoenix Force itself and killed it's avatars despite there protest. Then he absorbed what's left from Rachel, a fragment remaining from her encounter with the actual Force, and Korvus, a fragment remaining in the blade from which his ancestor Rookshir encountered the Force. Vulcan took it against their will and the Phoenix Force was HURT according the Rachel. Weak sauce cosmic!


So we have PF hosts doing the following on panel :

Making a star go nova (matching the LT's best on panel display of power)[/b]

Lol at your fail attempt.


Destroying a solar system (greater than any on panel showing of power by the LT)

Except when he was just ignoring the IG's attack. But I guess you want to argue that attack is less than solar system destroying. Hahaha. Destroying a solar system means jack.


Destroying several galaxies, a good chunk of the Annihilation Wave and Annihilus himself (geater than any on panel showing of the LT)

lol after the Force was absorbed by Vulcan, the third wheel of the Summers brothers. Getting absorbed by the aborted Summers doesn't put up the cosmic ladder. It just gives another showing as proof of how weak you are.

Destroying galaxies? Woah, just those flares on LT's hand could destroy galaxies.


Holding a universe in the palm of it's hand and rearranging it atom by atom (greater than any on panel showing of the LT).

Except when he prevent two brothers from playing a conflict of existence that would end and restart two megaverses. You keep forgetting that lol.


All this doesn't' include it's alternate selves destroying universes on panel under their own power.

Yeah, thanks for agreeing with me here at least. Alternative beings. Not the same things. GOT-CHA!

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Destroying galaxies? Woah, just those flares on LT's hand could destroy galaxies.

Speculation, didn't happen. We don't know if LT could destroy a galaxie. 😕

Originally posted by Xplosive
Speculation, didn't happen. We don't know if LT could destroy a galaxie. 😕

No we don't. Surely that's not true because the LT's best feat is causing a star to go nova.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
No we don't. Surely that's not true because the LT's best feat is causing a star to go nova.

Indeed.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]If it was nothing than why was Warlock shock at LT stopping and reversing said attack? You bring up Ziran but Warlock was shock and LT's power, not Ziran or anybody. Then when LT, an M-body, told him he represented power that are above the IG all Warlock could do was say that is to be seen? If he had more power than LT, than why not continuing attacking the court afterwards and try and stop it once again? Oh that's right because he was stopped by the Tribunal and astonished at the feat. lol. Then when he threatened a fight he backed down when a mere M-body was willing to wreck the a dimension to get it. The fact LT gave him a chance to Warlock is NOTHING NEW. He gave Dr Strange a chance in their first meeting, he She-Hulk a chance to defend against the replace of her universe with another, and even removed Slorith to another dimension where it can feed peaces. You have no argument so stop debating this point. That he didn't shut down the gems was because he knew of the outcome. Warlock knew of the outcome. He Warlock won, he could've fixed that dimension easily. He sure as hell wasn't and thus gave up rather than put that dimension through a fight and still lose.

Except for the fact that Ziran himself withstood the blast, yet Eternity and other higher level abstracts were sent flying. Why? Because Eternity stating on panel that this was only a representation of him and not his actuality or the blast wouldn't have done anything (they were ALL M-bodies).

Warlock wasn't trying to kill them. The LT couldn't shut down the Gems without Adam's consent and was determining during the Trial if he could even force them from his hand. Nothing else was shown on panel.

Are you deaf? I told you I'm not saying the PF isn't the big bang. But being the embodiment of the big bang doesn't give you power over everyone in the universe. It has displayed anything like the IG. It would've been killed by Galactus. It got pulled into the Ultra Force from it's native 616 that you claim it draws it power from. It being the big bang means jack because none of that has kept other beings from stomping it. The end.

lol. And how many times has a writer wanted the Phoenix Force to get stomped? At least 6 writers have written the PF vulnerable, with some of the worst showing for an cosmic entity.

Grant Morrison - Dies at Xorns hand
Dan Abnett & Ian Edginton - PF becomes a fuel cell; hides from ship in Amber Hunt; gets beaten into a portal by X-Men & Ultra Force
Ed Brubaker - Rook Shir is hunted down killed by the Imperial Guards
Greg Pak - Shi'Ar pulls the PF from the WHR and tries to kill it. The Force flees and tries to hide inside Jean's corpse.
Chris Claremont - Galactus was about to kill the PF

And the LT fled from Korvac and was blasted apart by Reed. The IG was blown off Rune's hand by the freaking Silver Surfer and Nemesis itself was stabbed by the Black Knight.

On the panel before that, we see part of his face in the same lower right hand corner. We see everyone else being blast away. WTF are you asking when he didn't move from his spot at all.

Wow! You got all that from a PORTION of the LT's face on panel? Is your name Ms Cleo?

He wanted to usurp TOAA in the book. The whole time he was saying I'm the new TOAA. Your handbook is wrong. Scathan attacked Protege before LT reacted. Then LT orders Scathan to release Protege and LT renders judgment and puts Protege away. Scathan didn't put Protege and took orders from LT.

lol at this. Whether or not Scathan approves of something, it has no baring on the court. Scathan was merely agreeing with the decisions made, he had no control of what the Tribunal does. Hence why LT rendered judgment and absorbed Protege before Scathan only approved.

The LT was surpassed and Scathan saved the day by muzzling him and then restraining him while the LT passed judgment as he secretly stole power from the Eye of Agamotto (and was caught out!).

This is shown on panel and confirmed by the handbook.

The Phoenix Force has never destroyed a universe. What If versions have. Not the same thing.

"Originally posted by Badabing
Generally What Ifs aren't used. I know there are some cases where they end up being canon. So a poster would have to prove that the What If is canon."

Two alternate universe versions of the PF have been shown destroying a universe on panel. The LT has NEVER been shown destroying anything greater than a star on panel.

Hahaha. "I'm going to assume he messed up?" Welcome to the board noob.

Ok, then Mr. Master was lying too when he stated that it was Rachel Summers crying and begging God for help while the Beyonder was killing the New Mutants? Because it's CLEARLY not Rachel but Wolfsbane.

Yeah, the one where he was going to replace the 616 with the Ultimates universe but She-Hulk argued and won that case so he didn't.

Has he EVER been shown on panel replacing one universe with another? This should be easy since the character has been around for 40+ years. Go find me the scan.

That book didn't retcon their fight that ended the two megaverses and brought it back. In fact, it says the brothers are playing out the conflict of existence but not just yet (when the LT closes his hand). No where does it retcon any of that. They're still battling a battle that would end and restart existence as they did in DC Vs Marvel. And the entire thing was just a play of destiny orchestrated by the Tribunal and the Spectre. Letse you find any being prevent powers that can destroy and restart two megaverse just by closing their clenching their hand?

lol at you. See above. The fact that their architects doesn't prevent them from fighting a fight that destroys and bringing back two megaverses. He closed his hand and prevented their roles.
Then a few pages later he was about to open it up again after consulting with the Spectre.

Image or not, the two brothers could not fight a fight that destroys and brings back two megaverse unless the LT opened his hand. Take your dictionary and shove it. Go read the actual comics.

They were RETCONNED on panel from creators to architects. Then according to the handbook, guardians. Architects <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Creators, and this is assuming you ignore the handbooks.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
[B]So basically you want to argue Vulcan went into the WHR, murdered the Phoenix avatars, absorbed the entire PF, and went about destroying galaxies? That fine by me. I've always argued that the PF is powerful but has among the worse durability record among the cosmics. This merely supports other evidence such as Xorn, Entity Ship, Galactus, Shi'Ar tech, and X-Men/Ultra Force kicking it's but. LT would wreck it in a fight. [

He didn't aquire a good chunk of it. He aquired the Phoenix Force itself and killed it's avatars despite there protest. Then he absorbed what's left from Rachel, a fragment remaining from her encounter with the actual Force, and Korvus, a fragment remaining in the blade from which his ancestor Rookshir encountered the Force. Vulcan took it against their will and the Phoenix Force was HURT according the Rachel. Weak sauce cosmic!

lol after the Force was absorbed by Vulcan, the third wheel of the Summers brothers. Getting absorbed by the aborted Summers doesn't put up the cosmic ladder. It just gives another showing as proof of how weak you are.

Oh yeah, he "murdered" the PF and absorbed it alright. Oh and he had ALL of it 😆

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Lol at your fail attempt.

Except when he was just ignoring the IG's attack. But I guess you want to argue that attack is less than solar system destroying. Hahaha. Destroying a solar system means jack.

Destroying galaxies? Woah, just those flares on LT's hand could destroy galaxies.

Except when he prevent two brothers from playing a conflict of existence that would end and restart two megaverses. You keep forgetting that lol.

Except it was STATED ON PANEL by the LT himself that making that star go nova was his ultimate judgment! Show me on panel, him destroying ANYTHING greater than a star and I'll leave this thread forever.

Yeah, thanks for agreeing with me here at least. Alternative beings. Not the same things. GOT-CHA!

No, I'm just not bothering with it because hearing you cry is getting annoying. 616, all What Ifs, and alternate earths are part of the greater multiverse (stated by Marvel Official info). That means two of those universes CEASED to exist because the PF destroyed them.

Now show me the LT destroying, creating, replacing a universe on panel anywhere.

Originally posted by zopzop

No, I'm just not bothering with it because hearing you cry is getting annoying. 616, all What Ifs, and alternate earths are part of the greater multiverse (stated by Marvel Official info). That means two of those universes CEASED to exist because the PF destroyed them.
.

Another thing to note is that the Phoenix Force is now considered by the handbooks to be a multiversal force. As shown in New X-men you have the Phoenix Consciousness existing in the M'kraan crystal and you have portions of the Phoenix Force operating at a universal level. So you could argue that the What If feats are applicable to the full Phoenix Force.

This always made sense to me anyway because how could the Force be universal if one of its many avatars wielding a portion of its essence manipulate the atoms of the entire universe in her palm. 😕

Now we know why. Its a multiversal entity 🙂

I love how WWK talks of the Force having the worse durability in comics when if anything the fact that it can be shattered, used as fuel and then just pull itself back together shows it has the best durability around.

There is more to invulnerability than the superman/thor/colossus form.

GS, I am pretty sure you know that Franklin Richards (Psi-Lord and Psi-Lord generating his anti-matter universal Big Bang on panel) destroyed an alternate universe and shown universal destroying powers.