Originally posted by Jam-Jul_LisonWhat excellent assumptions and theories.
But did the guy learn a lesson? That is part of the point of the whole justice system. He also manipulated the guys mind. Now come on now. Would you like someone to manipulate your mind? Hell I can see the guy eventualy figuring out what happened and trying to hunt down the guy that messed with his mind.Also as Ox said, he could have been an undercover cop and screwed the guys mission up. If you think about it. That was a realy nice club. I do not see a dealer realy trying to sell drugs in a place like that. Especialy not just saying it out of the blue to Obi-Wan. That sounds more like the behavior of an undercover cop.
Also the guy could have also been there to meet up with a realy hot chick. It is possible that Obi-Wan screwed him out of a chance at getting laid. Yes Obi-Wan did what he thought was right. But who is to say he knows what is best for someone. He might think he does, but that does not mean he is right. A jedi is supposed to think of the consequences of their actions. Obi-Wan did not do that. It looked like to me that the guy was just annoying Obi-Wan so he did it to get rid of him.
People trust Obi-Wan to protect senators and hunt down assassins, but when it comes to discriminating between an undercover cop and a drug dealer, he's mind-boggled.
And a nice place? That joint was full of hookers and sleazes by the look of it. I've been offered drugs before out of the blue, why is that so hard for you to comprehend?
People also have the right to not get harassed by illegal dealers, now, go bash those naughty bastards for once instead of sticking up for their lawless ways.
Originally posted by Tangible God
What excellent assumptions and theories.People trust Obi-Wan to protect senators and hunt down assassins, but when it comes to discriminating between an undercover cop and a drug dealer, he's mind-boggled.
And a nice place? That joint was full of hookers and sleazes by the look of it. I've been offered drugs before out of the blue, why is that so hard for you to comprehend?
People also have the right to not get harassed by illegal dealers, now, go bash those naughty bastards for once instead of sticking up for their lawless ways.
The point is Obi-Wan had no idea who this guy was. He didnt know his name, his background, how he got the deathsticks, if the deathsticks were real etc. Now if Obi-Wan had taken this guy to court he would have had the chance to have a fair trial and get off if he was innocent. However Kenobi took the law into his own hands and delivered the punishment himself. He didnt have the authority to do this, nor did he know if the guy was innocent or not. However Kenobi THOUGHT he knew what was best. The truth is he doesnt, certainly not from knowing the guy a grand total of 3 seconds...
Originally posted by Rampant oxA Jedi has no authority to punish someone? Then what the f*ck are they good for other than bodyguards?
The point is Obi-Wan had no idea who this guy was. He didnt know his name, his background, how he got the deathsticks, if the deathsticks were real etc. Now if Obi-Wan had taken this guy to court he would have had the chance to have a fair trial and get off if he was innocent. However Kenobi took the law into his own hands and delivered the punishment himself. He didnt have the authority to do this, nor did he know if the guy was innocent or not. However Kenobi THOUGHT he knew what was best. The truth is he doesnt, certainly not from knowing the guy a grand total of 3 seconds...
And the guy was let off without a mark on his record, Obi-Wan let him off EASY and also got him to go home and rethink his f*cked up life. Honestly, what would YOU prefer? A) Jail, trial, a fine, a criminal record, or B) a wave of the hand and the quitting of a deadly narctotic? If you chose A, your a moron.
I also suppose your gonna tell me an undercover cop would walk up to an obvious Jedi and offer him illegal drugs? When a fully uniformed cop walks in, a drug dealer doesn't go up to him and offer him some crack. And neither would an undercover cop.
Originally posted by Tangible God A Jedi has no authority to punish someone? Then what the f*ck are they good for other than bodyguards?
A jedi is a peace keeper. He or she arrests wrong doers and brings them to the courts, thus keeping the peace. However they dont have the right to mess with someones mind and free will. Jedi dont know what is best for someone so they cant go around using the force to alter someones entire life.
And the guy was let off without a mark on his record, Obi-Wan let him off EASY and also got him to go home and rethink his f*cked up life. Honestly, what would YOU prefer? A) Jail, trial, a fine, a criminal record, or B) a wave of the hand and the quitting of a deadly narctotic? If you chose A, your a moron.
What Kenobi did for the guy was great. Im not arguing that. However how he did it is the problem. Kenobi doesnt know whats best for the guy, his motives, his lifestyle etc. How can he use the force to change this guys life when he has only known him for about 3 seconds. Jedi cant just take the law into their own hands and do whats 'best' for the public according to what they think.
I also suppose your gonna tell me an undercover cop would walk up to an obvious Jedi and offer him illegal drugs? When a fully uniformed cop walks in, a drug dealer doesn't go up to him and offer him some crack. And neither would an undercover cop.
Thats just an example. Kenobi didnt have a clue who this guy was and what he was doing there yet he still used the force to alter his entire life.
Originally posted by Rampant oxSo wait a minute. Are you saying that every time a Jedi uses the Mind Trick, he must do a total background check on the person first? Some guardian.
A jedi is a peace keeper. He or she arrests wrong doers and brings them to the courts, thus keeping the peace. However they dont have the right to mess with someones mind and free will. Jedi dont know what is best for someone so they cant go around using the force to alter someones entire life.What Kenobi did for the guy was great. Im not arguing that. However how he did it is the problem. Kenobi doesnt know whats best for the guy, his motives, his lifestyle etc. How can he use the force to change this guys life when he has only known him for about 3 seconds. Jedi cant just take the law into their own hands and do whats 'best' for the public according to what they think.
Thats just an example. Kenobi didnt have a clue who this guy was and what he was doing there yet he still used the force to alter his entire life.
If Kenobi told the man to jump off the roof as well, that would be wrong. But as that's not the case... What he did to the man is no different than arresting them. An arrested man's rights and free will are also put on hiatus. They don't give him the choice to come down to the station, they make him come by force, whether he consents to it or not.
This is no different. He took away his right to decide himself. He had the right to stop all along, he had the choice to. Obviously he waved that choice. So Kenobi enforced it himself. The man was a drug dealer, and Kenobi made him stop. Plain and simple as a man who murders is arrested and made to stop murdering.
If you involve Human Rights in every single crime, the world would have gone to Hell long ago.
Originally posted by Tangible God
So wait a minute. Are you saying that every time a Jedi uses the Mind Trick, he must do a total background check on the person first? Some guardian.
Of course not. But in this case the mind trick altered the drug dealers entire life. A jedi is not entitled to do this, especially not when they have only known the person for about three seconds. However in ANH Kenobis mind trick on the stormtroopers was more acceptable. He didnt change their entire life with that mind trick, merely did what was necessary to get past. See the difference?
If Kenobi told the man to jump off the roof as well, that would be wrong. But as that's not the case... What he did to the man is no different than arresting them. An arrested man's rights and free will are also put on hiatus. They don't give him the choice to come down to the station, they make him come by force, whether he consents to it or not.
Arresting someone and forcing them to come to court is fine. It is part of the law. But while at court you are entitled to a fair trial and you are let off if you are innocent. The drug dealer never got this trial and he never had the chance to prove his innocence. All he got was his entire life changed by a guy he had known for about three seconds. All wrong doers are entitled to a fair trial, Kenobi did not offer this.
This is no different. He took away his right to decide himself. He had the right to stop all along, he had the choice to. Obviously he waved that choice. So Kenobi enforced it himself. The man was a drug dealer, and Kenobi made him stop. Plain and simple as a man who murders is arrested and made to stop murdering.
Theres a difference. Kenobi was not allowed to take the law into his own hands and change the drug dealers life. He is however perfectly within his rights to arrest the man and take him to court. Look at it this way. A police officer in our world cant just go up to a drug dealer and force him to stop. He has to arrest the person and take them to court. It is no different to Obi-Wan.
Originally posted by Rampant oxFrankly, how do you know if a Jedi isn't allowed to do that?
Of course not. But in this case the mind trick altered the drug dealers entire life. A jedi is not entitled to do this, especially not when they have only known the person for about three seconds. However in ANH Kenobis mind trick on the stormtroopers was more acceptable. He didnt change their entire life with that mind trick, merely did what was necessary to get past. See the difference?Arresting someone and forcing them to come to court is fine. It is part of the law. But while at court you are entitled to a fair trial and you are let off if you are innocent. The drug dealer never got this trial and he never had the chance to prove his innocence. All he got was his entire life changed by a guy he had known for about three seconds. All wrong doers are entitled to a fair trial, Kenobi did not offer this.
Theres a difference. Kenobi was not allowed to take the law into his own hands and change the drug dealers life. He is however perfectly within his rights to arrest the man and take him to court. Look at it this way. A police officer in our world cant just go up to a drug dealer and force him to stop. He has to arrest the person and take them to court. It is no different to Obi-Wan.
So your saying that, because Obi-Wan made the guy quit dealing and doing an illegal deadly drug, he's in the wrong? Now I do believe that we agree that it's Okay to take away a criminals rights to keep away from endangering anyone else, and to stop him from breaking the law, right? Why do you feel Obi-Wan doing what he did, is going to make the man's life worse? Actually answer this.
Whenever a Jedi, or agent, or cop with the authority to do what these type of people do, get involved with other peoples lives, those people's lives are going to change. If they didn't, Jedi, agents and cops would be pointless.
Originally posted by Tangible God
Frankly, how do you know if a Jedi isn't allowed to do that?So your saying that, because Obi-Wan made the guy quit dealing and doing an illegal deadly drug, he's in the wrong? Now I do believe that we agree that it's Okay to take away a criminals rights to keep away from endangering anyone else, and to stop him from breaking the law, right? Why do you feel Obi-Wan doing what he did, is going to make the man's life worse? Actually answer this.
Whenever a Jedi, or agent, or cop with the authority to do what these type of people do, get involved with other peoples lives, those people's lives are going to change. If they didn't, Jedi, agents and cops would be pointless.
The death stick dealer was in the wrong. Now Kenobi is a peace keeper, he has every right to reprimand this wrong doer. But the wrong doer has rights. he has the right to resist arrest, he has the right to go to court and he has the right to prove his innocence. Kenobi removed him of all these rights unlawfully. Its not up to Kenobi to choose what id best for this crook, what he should have done is arrested him and left it for the courts to decide. And Kenobi had absolutely no right into tricking the guy into doing something that he might not have wanted to do.
Originally posted by Tangible God
I'll ask again, why doesn't Kenobi have that right?
First off there is nothing in the movies that prove they have any legal authority to arrest someone. The only exception would be episode 3 where many jedi were given a military rank. commenly general. Even with such a rank like that, they would still have to follow the same rules as normal officers. Prior to the clone wars, the jedi existed as a seperate orginization. While the members were republic citizens, they governed themselves. That is why you never saw a Jedi Senater. The Senate and chanceller could ask the jedi order to do something, but they could not order it. Palpatine requested that Obi-Wan and Anakin protect Padme. So anything that involved protecting her, they had the legal right to do. The death stick dealer was in no way included in that. Obi-Wan simply did what he thought was right for the person and did not give one thought about the consequences of it. Sure he might have saw the good. But he might not have saw bad consequences as well. It is not quite so easy for a drug dealer to suddenly stop dealing drugs. Espcialy if they are in real deep into some sh*t.
Once the Clone Wars begun, we see the Jedi Offering to help, so Palpatine gives them all Military Ranks. Thus making them a part of the Republic. This helps to ensure control of the jedi. Now at this time they can legaly arrest people. But not deal out punishment. Unless they are of course ordered to do so.
Originally posted by Jam-Jul_LisonYou're contradicting your argument.
First off there is nothing in the movies that prove they have any legal authority to arrest someone.
Then what do you suggest he should have done? Ignored the criminal? Very un-Jedi like that would be.
There's also no evidence given to claim they don't have the powers to arrest or punish someone. So let's not jump to conclusions.
However, as guardians of the Republic, there's more evidence to suggest that they DO indeed have those powers.
Originally posted by Soren the Mage
As hilarious as that was, i feel i need to critisize it.It is a known fact that the Jedi play the Self-proclaimed Super heroes. And yes, alot of us do know better than the jedi, because we aren't using our lightsabers to butt into everyones sodding business, are we? The Jedi are weak little sissy boys. They need a damned army to take care of their business? Since they are oh so knowledgable and wise, why don't they just spawn more Jedi? What, they don't deal out the effort to train freakin' Jedi anymore? Oh wait, i remember now.... YOU HAVE TO BE A F*CKING CHOSEN ONE TO BECOME A HALF-DECENT JEDI! Or wait.... MAYBE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MIDICHLORIANS MIGHT HELP!!!!?!?? For christs sake, wake up. All the Jedi do is ramble on about how dangerous their Jedi are. Maybe if they weren't such a pompous ******* to Anakin and let him do some missions and grant him rank of master (which he damned well deserved) then maybe he would'nt have became Darth Vader and maybe he wouldn't have slaughtered thousands or blown a handful of planets up.
Mace: Sorry Anakin, we do not grant you the rank of master because you had your personal opinion.
Anakin: That's pretty shitty.
Mace: BUT you can hop aboard the council.
Anakin: What does that help? Didn't i just finish bitching about how much i hate politics and countless babble?
Mace: That's why we do not grant you a master.
Anakin: THEN WHY SHOVE ME ON THE COUNCIL, YOU DUMB SHIT?!!?
Mace: Oh my lord... You are growing too angry, my son! Normal human emotions aren't allowed in the Jedi. Did i mention that includes love?
Anakin:ACK! SCREW YOU!Anakin: Oh hey Mace. Where you headed?
Mace: To place Palpatine under arrest!
Anakin: Can i come with you?
Mace: No, you stay here and sit on your ass and wait.
Anakin: Why can't i come?
Mace: This mission is far too dangerous for such a weak Jedi like you. Sorry, son.
Anakin:Wait until i chop your friggin wrists off, assface!
Mace: What was that?
Anakin: I coughed, stupid. I'll just sit here and get more mad.
Mace: No problem, just try not to become the most dangerous Sith Lord ever because of me, hey?
Anakin: What?
Mace: Just a cough, Any, just a cough.
Anakin: Whatever, ******.
man this thread is old
Originally posted by Tangible God
You're contradicting your argument.Then what do you suggest he should have done? Ignored the criminal? Very un-Jedi like that would be.
There's also no evidence given to claim they don't have the powers to arrest or punish someone. So let's not jump to conclusions.
However, as guardians of the Republic, there's more evidence to suggest that they DO indeed have those powers.
Even if they have the power to act like a police officer. It would not give them the right alter someone's mind or even give out punishment in general. The most they could do is read them their rights, arrest them.
Originally posted by Jam-Jul_LisonReally, show me the proof. As Guardians of the Republic, it would make sense for them to use these specific powers, the Mind Trick obviously very useful in settling affairs or bringing people to justice without too much of a hassle. Show me the direct, canon statement that says otherwise.
Even if they have the power to act like a police officer. It would not give them the right alter someone's mind or even give out punishment in general. The most they could do is read them their rights, arrest them.
Originally posted by Tangible God
Really, show me the proof. As Guardians of the Republic, it would make sense for them to use these specific powers, the Mind Trick obviously very useful in settling affairs or bringing people to justice without too much of a hassle. Show me the direct, canon statement that says otherwise.
Why's don't you show me proof that they are allowed to do that? I can understand being allowed to do so if the mission involves doing that. But as is the case of the death stick dealer. He was in no way a part of the mission to protect Padme.
i'll settle it,
rex is right allround and plus there's more
Escape81 u r right
Rampant, Shut the F*ck up you are a sith and exactly like Jam-Jul, i have respected both of you guys on other occasions but now i realize u guys are the reason i have had to help ppl out of suicide and failed sometimes, u r the reason they end up ending their lives because they were raped by parents and/or friends and all the ppl like you who knew about it wouldn't step in and save their f*cking life. You Sicken Me!
Originally posted by Jam-Jul_Lison
A. I am not an idiot. I just believe no one had the right to mind rape someone. Which is pretty much what Obi-Wan did.
B. I am not an anarchist. I do not wish for chaos or anything. I just believe a person's right to choose. Not everyone makes the right choices. But that is just part of free will. You may not agree with that choice but it is still their choice to make.
While I myself believe those things are wrong to do. It is still there right to choose to do those things. Odds are those people will end up and jail and will get definitly get there just deserts while they are locked up. Not to mention they will also be judged when they die. When people do something to hurt someone, it will always come back to get them in the end.
so ur a christian but u refuse to step in for the greater good think about the situation b4 u step in and say its wrong to change a persons mind we do it every day to each other, ur doing it right now but your doing it on a low scale and you do that because you do not have the power(which if you did have you would problablyuse against human kind) or knowledge or wisdom like the jedi do to understand the decision Obi-Wan made.
C. Hmm confused? Not realy. I just think it if f*cked up to rob someone of their right to choose.
Lison and Rampant "go home and rethink ur lives..."